I'm Really Disappointed in the Decision to Keep Mandatory Mods

[DiabolusUrsus]

Update, because this thread keeps getting resurrected when I least expect it. READ THIS FIRST please:

The goal of this thread is not to prompt the simple deletion of mods like Serration, Hornet Strike, and Pressure Point. As many of you have tirelessly pointed out, that simply makes way for the next set of "mandatory mods." Notice, however, that this thread is not titled "I'm Really Disappointed in the Decision to Keep Serration, etc." As I see it, there are two generalized solutions:

1. Buff equipment baseline and shrink the gap between "mandatory" mods and non-mandatory mods such that it is a legitimate choice, via the inclusion of meaningful and universal tradeoffs or some other mechanism.
2. Completely segregate customization mods and progression mods, both in use and in acquisition.

 Original Thread Text:

At least, how I am interpreting this decision. By avoiding the issue of potentially compensating players for lost "equipment," you are turning away from perhaps the most promising change of development direction I have heard out of you to date.

What is wrong with Damage 2.0?

First and foremost, the modding "customization" system is not customization. It is progression.

You need certain mods to survive and succeed against the most challenging enemies the game has to offer. Let me rephrase that: You need those mods if you want to avoid a frustrating over-reliance on teammates and an infuriating frequency of cheap near-instant deaths. This isn't necessarily wrong, but the modding system is presented as a customization system, so it rankles to be told you should have one thing when it clearly isn't given to you.

Can players customize? Sure, to some extent, and there are definitely some opportunities for creativity out there... but in order to customize players have to sacrifice effectiveness, and that may be a choice but it's not really much of an option when it comes to end-game content.

There's also the small problem of mods being random and monetized. Making the ability to progress random doesn't strike me as a good idea.

Randomized combat mechanics suck.

Setting aside the entertainment value of proc effects and critical damage, what makes procs and crits fun? Do players get some sort of thrill out of rolling dice on every shot to see if their weapons do what they want? I don't think so. The proof is in the fact that when modding for status or critical damage, the one overriding goal is to eliminate as much of that randomness as possible. What is the point of a random system if all you try to do is make it non-random?

I miss the days where sticking fire damage on your gun allowed you to create seas of fire out of your enemies. That made elements feel special and entertaining. Now they just feel bland and uninteresting. They're effective, sure, but still bland and uninteresting.

Enemies define builds, not playstyles.

My A, B, and C loadouts are currently dedicated to Grineer, Corpus, and Infested respectively. The loadouts aren't really distinguished by how each weapon handles, just the damage mods I stick on them. Previously, forgetting to switch loadouts meant suffering a frustrating level of ineffectiveness against anything but the weakest enemies. Not because I didn't have the skill to shoot weak points, not because I had a hard time keeping myself safe and alive, but because I didn't bring the right cards on my gun. In the game's current state the average level is such that this doesn't matter quite as much... but that simply highlights another flaw in the system:

The elements are practically identical. Using heat feels the same as using cold feels the same as using toxin feels the same as using radiation feels the same as using corrosive feels the same as using electricity. Viral and Gas stand out a bit, but otherwise the only significant difference between the elements is how much total damage they do to particular enemies. That's boring.

Taking all of this into consideration, simply adding new enemies isn't going to fix the problem for as long as the EXISTING enemies remain. We can't simply write them off as a non-issue.

Please keep in mind that this is not a comprehensive list of problems with the system; it is an outline of the more major ones and it is intended to explain why simply adding new conte- I mean new enemies is not going to fix the problems with your existing mechanics.

Edited February 1, 2017 by DiabolusUrsus

[Sziklamester]

I feel the same.

 

[DiabolusUrsus]

You know, I thought I provided a decent explanation without giving off an aura of anger, but correct me if I'm wrong.

[TARINunit9]

11 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Setting aside the entertainment value of proc effects and critical damage, what makes procs and crits fun? Do players get some sort of thrill out of rolling dice on every shot to see if their weapons do what they want? I don't think so. The proof is in the fact that when modding for status or critical damage, the one overriding goal is to eliminate as much of that randomness as possible. What is the point of a random system if all you try to do is make it non-random?

Have you ever played tabletop games? Anything from Dungeons and Dragons to Warhammer or Warhammer 40k

These are games with random systems, and a playerbase that is absolutely deadset on making their builds as non-random as possible. The sense of progression for these players is the feeling that they have managed to make a build that's effective and reliable in an inherent random system

That's the point, or one of the points, in making a random system

That said, your argument doesn't just vanish, because Warframe does it wrong. In a good tabletop game, the more you focus on making your aspects non-random, the more you give up to do so.. It's specialization. Meanwhile in Warframe, there are two god-tier stats: raw damage, and crit chance. Whereas in DnD you're absolutely screwed if you load up for raw damage without any non-combat skills, or in 40k you're screwed if you load up for pure melee focus without any ranged cover fire, in WF you can load up with any Frost and focus everything, literally EVERYTHING on damage/crit for your primary and be perfectly effective

[AEP8FlyBoy]

If you think about it though, if Mandatory mods and/or builds are removed or changed because of the exclusion of certain mods like Hornet Strike, Serration or Point Blank being just added to the weapon stat wise without mods.

Wouldn't there just be more mandatory mods to remove later? Because the build would change, but after Primary Damage mods get removed, it would be Elemental and Multishot mods next. Eventually we wouldn't have any semblance of customization left, and modding for specific factions has always been a thing and I like that about the game's modding system.

Mandatory Mods will always exist, removing some doesn't mean more won't show up.
Cuz they always will.

Edited January 7, 2017 by AEP8FlyBoy

[Siekier]

I have to agree, "customization" does not feel like customization.

 

99% of the time it's just mostly using mandatory mods.

Weapon that relies on straight damage? Just stack damage mods.

Weapon that relies on crits? Mandatory mods, crit mods, turns out you have even less space to work with if you want to customize your weapon.

Status weapons? Very similar.

 

Not much of a customization when it turns into "use one specific build or you're gimping yourself".

[DiabolusUrsus]

3 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Have you ever played tabletop games? Anything from Dungeons and Dragons to Warhammer or Warhammer 40k

These are games with random systems, and a playerbase that is absolutely deadset on making their builds as non-random as possible. The sense of progression for these players is the feeling that they have managed to make a build that's effective and reliable in an inherent random system

That's the point, or one of the points, in making a random system

That said, your argument doesn't just vanish, because Warframe does it wrong. In a good tabletop game, the more you focus on making your aspects non-random, the more you give up to do so.. It's specialization. Meanwhile in Warframe, there are two god-tier stats: raw damage, and crit chance. Whereas in DnD you're absolutely screwed if you load up for raw damage without any non-combat skills, or in 40k you're screwed if you load up for pure melee focus without any ranged cover fire, in WF you can load up with any Frost and focus everything, literally EVERYTHING on damage/crit for your primary and be perfectly effective

You're not wrong.

But I will point out that originally random stats were mean't to simulate what tabletop games with figurines can't: action.

Warframe is an action game, where whether a shot misses, hits, or hits a vital spot (crits) should be entirely in the control of the player. There's no need for an extra layer of randomness.

[AEP8FlyBoy]

2 minutes ago, Siekier said:

I have to agree, "customization" does not feel like customization.

 

99% of the time it's just mostly using mandatory mods.

Weapon that relies on straight damage? Just stack damage mods.

Weapon that relies on crits? Mandatory mods, crit mods, turns out you have even less space to work with if you want to customize your weapon.

Status weapons? Very similar.

 

Not much of a customization when it turns into "use one specific build or you're gimping yourself".

How else would you customize a weapon? If you aren't customizing it for its strong points you're shooting yourself in the feet.
I do agree though. There are mandatory builds for different weapons (crits/status/pure damage/elemental).

Mandatory mod removal wouldn't be the answer though, it would just pave the road for more mandatory mods later on. And eventually we'd be stuck modding for Ammo Maximum or Flight Speed.

Edited January 7, 2017 by AEP8FlyBoy

[DiabolusUrsus]

7 minutes ago, AEP8FlyBoy said:

If you think about it though, if Mandatory mods and/or builds are removed or changed because of the exclusion of certain mods like Hornet Strike, Serration or Point Blank being just added to the weapon stat wise without mods.

Wouldn't there just be more mandatory mods to remove later? Because the build would change, but after Primary Damage mods get removed, it would be Elemental and Multishot mods next. Eventually we wouldn't have any semblance of customization left, and modding for specific factions has always been a thing and I like that about the game's modding system.

Mandatory Mods will always exist, removing some doesn't mean more won't show up.
Cuz they always will.

That's assuming they just go with more of the same "add damage to your weapon with no penalties."

How do you get rid of mandatory mods? Don't let anything be purely beneficial. Add meaningful drawbacks, such that "modding" is all about setting it up so that the drawbacks you have don't bother you. Then you have players modding for playstyle.

Also, unmodded should be baseline effective, not ineffective. Thus, if a weapon already handles exactly like the player wants they don't have to change anything.

To be more clear: I'm not saying "Take serration out of the game." I'm saying "change/replace it with something that isn't quite so no-brainer, and change the status quo such that it isn't needed."

Edited January 7, 2017 by DiabolusUrsus
Clarity.

[NeithanDiniem]

Basically put, even if the flat damage mods were integrated, you would have elemental. If elemental was changed to conversion rather than addition, you would have crit/status. Narrowing to just those two you will however still fall to having "mandatory" elements to exploit the weakness of your enemy plus your crit/status chance mods and crit damage mods. Now you have more room for often overlooked mods that wouldn't fit before, but now that they do they become more or less mandatory.

The addition of Mini bosses was also more directed at the idea of improving mob AI. Just making them smarter but still being the grunts we mow down wouldn't really be noticeable. We need some actual spice to the soup.

This isn't something avoidable. Even in DnD there are "mandatory" paths to take if you want your role to be effective and efficient. What DnD DOES have is enough dynamic and varied situations to run into that having utility in place of just pure damage is what saves your bacon. Adding in mini boss level enemies into missions that change the flow of the mission can in fact be a way to improve the current situation. This doesn't mean that DE is forever now incapable of looking back at the mods and saying "Yea we can remove this." They did say that with their new full play through perspective of the game that they were going to go through the mods as a whole and work on cleaning house. Some of that clean up can very well fix some of the issues we currently have.

I'm all for the removal of the mandatory damage mods personally, but I'm willing to see how these mini bosses work out.

[AEP8FlyBoy]

3 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

That's assuming they just go with more of the same "add damage to your weapon with no penalties."

How do you get rid of mandatory mods? Don't let anything be purely beneficial. Add meaningful drawbacks, such that "modding" is all about setting it up so that the drawbacks you have don't bother you. Then you have players modding for playstyle.

Also, unmodded should be baseline effective, not ineffective. Thus, if a weapon already handles exactly like the player wants they don't have to change anything.

To be more clear: I'm not saying "Take serration out of the game." I'm saying "change/replace it with something that isn't quite so no-brainer, and change the status quo such that it isn't needed."

That would take quite a bit of work on the Devs side, because any change of that magnitude will change how damage is dealt game-wide. I'm not saying it isn't possible, just saying that Mandatory mods will always exist. Even if alternatives arise.

Heavy Caliber for instance is an example of what Damage 3.0 could bring, A positive and a negative. A drawback for damage. Removing Serration from the game and just adding the damage you would've gotten to the weapon itself as it levels up would solve some problems, but it would ultimately come back to haunt everyone, because players would clamor for the next big build.

Downsides to mods won't necessarily make things better either, although it would make a player think before modding, mods that affect different characteristics of a weapon to increase combat efficiency would rise to the top. Just as Serration has.

And therefore become Mandatory again.
So yeah, mods don't need to be removed. Just changed. The entire system more than likely will need to be tweaked, along with how damage is dealt to enemies. (With their armor and stuff, and all the one-shot kills they can deal on us.)

[Grebnennar]

People basically want a complete rework of how the game is played because they don't want to spend 2 hours in a survival to see the enemies that become challenging for their builds. Because weapons have unique stats it's always going to require certain mods for "best builds", and because math exists certain mods will always be better than others.

[Cosmedian]

5 minutes ago, AEP8FlyBoy said:

How else would you customize a weapon? If you aren't customizing it for its strong points you're shooting yourself in the feet.
I do agree though. There are mandatory builds for different weapons (crits/status/pure damage/elemental).

Mandatory mod removal wouldn't be the answer though, it would just pave the road for more mandatory mods later on. And eventually we'd be stuck modding for Ammo Maximum or Flight Speed.

What else besides Damage, Crit, Firerate and Damage is to mod? Magazin Capacity, Max Ammo, Flight Speed, Accuracy, Recoil, Punch Trough, Status Duration, Scopes (Wich isn't really present in Warframe but in other games), Holster Speed etc.

Damage, Firerate and Crit mods wouldn't have to be removed, just being made not mandatory would suffice. far weaker boosts or far stronger Trade-offs for the mandatory mods, and lower recoil (for example) could actually rival them.

[Phatose]

12 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

That's assuming they just go with more of the same "add damage to your weapon with no penalties."

How do you get rid of mandatory mods? Don't let anything be purely beneficial. Add meaningful drawbacks, such that "modding" is all about setting it up so that the drawbacks you have don't bother you. Then you have players modding for playstyle.

Also, unmodded should be baseline effective, not ineffective. Thus, if a weapon already handles exactly like the player wants they don't have to change anything.

To be more clear: I'm not saying "Take serration out of the game." I'm saying "change/replace it with something that isn't quite so no-brainer, and change the status quo such that it isn't needed."

I really don't want this - at all, even close.

Warframe is very much a game of progression for me.  Customization is not even close to worth that trade.

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 minute ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Basically put, even if the flat damage mods were integrated, you would have elemental. If elemental was changed to conversion rather than addition, you would have crit/status. Narrowing to just those two you will however still fall to having "mandatory" elements to exploit the weakness of your enemy plus your crit/status chance mods and crit damage mods. Now you have more room for often overlooked mods that wouldn't fit before, but now that they do they become more or less mandatory.

The addition of Mini bosses was also more directed at the idea of improving mob AI. Just making them smarter but still being the grunts we mow down wouldn't really be noticeable. We need some actual spice to the soup.

This isn't something avoidable. Even in DnD there are "mandatory" paths to take if you want your role to be effective and efficient. What DnD DOES have is enough dynamic and varied situations to run into that having utility in place of just pure damage is what saves your bacon. Adding in mini boss level enemies into missions that change the flow of the mission can in fact be a way to improve the current situation. This doesn't mean that DE is forever now incapable of looking back at the mods and saying "Yea we can remove this." They did say that with their new full play through perspective of the game that they were going to go through the mods as a whole and work on cleaning house. Some of that clean up can very well fix some of the issues we currently have.

I'm all for the removal of the mandatory damage mods personally, but I'm willing to see how these mini bosses work out.

Assuming all they did was remove them, yes. They shouldn't simply remove them and call it a day, though.

- Reduce the benefits of damage+ mods and add drawbacks. No free damage.

- Change elements such that they provide an auxiliary (e.g., setting something on fire) and a proc (panics while on fire). Aux. happens every hit, proc happens periodically.

- Crit is set to headshots/weakpoints a la Borderlands.

Ta-dah. "Mandatory" stuff is no longer "mandatory," but still worth considering.

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 minute ago, Phatose said:

I really don't want this - at all, even close.

Warframe is very much a game of progression for me.  Customization is not even close to worth that trade.

Point out where i said "remove progression."

All I said was that progression shouldn't be random.

[NeithanDiniem]

1 minute ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Assuming all they did was remove them, yes. They shouldn't simply remove them and call it a day, though.

- Reduce the benefits of damage+ mods and add drawbacks. No free damage.

- Change elements such that they provide an auxiliary (e.g., setting something on fire) and a proc (panics while on fire). Aux. happens every hit, proc happens periodically.

- Crit is set to headshots/weakpoints a la Borderlands.

Ta-dah. "Mandatory" stuff is no longer "mandatory," but still worth considering.

You notice that this would all be things that would fit into what I said where they are going to be going through all the mods as a whole and cleaning house. I was referring to the basic idea that most people seem to have that simply removing them doesn't solve the problem at all, yes. I'm for removing them but only if done properly. If that can be done properly then keep them in and try something else.

[Phatose]

Just now, DiabolusUrsus said:

Point out where i said "remove progression."

All I said was that progression shouldn't be random.

You said that right here:

 

15 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

 

How do you get rid of mandatory mods? Don't let anything be purely beneficial.

 

That's at best reinstating mandatory mods - except it's mandatory based on the weapon, not globally, which I don't count as a whole lot of improvement.  Or it's never actually not a trade off, and is customization but not progression.

[NeithanDiniem]

3 minutes ago, Phatose said:

I really don't want this - at all, even close.

Warframe is very much a game of progression for me.  Customization is not even close to worth that trade.

If progression is a blade's edge that I have to walk on, then progression is about as pointless as a bowling ball. Everyone would reach that same exact goal point. Its the exact thing you can see in other games, like GW2, where the classes lost almost all sense of customization. I cannot for the life of me play that game any more, despite being a die-hard player of the first one. Without customization you have a stagnation.

And who is to say that through customization you don't just have more ways to progress? You customize your build in a skill tree and still progress. Path of Exile is a prime example of this.

[Phatose]

Just now, NeithanDiniem said:

If progression is a blade's edge that I have to walk on, then progression is about as pointless as a bowling ball. Everyone would reach that same exact goal point. Its the exact thing you can see in other games, like GW2, where the classes lost almost all sense of customization. I cannot for the life of me play that game any more, despite being a die-hard player of the first one. Without customization you have a stagnation.

And who is to say that through customization you don't just have more ways to progress? You customize your build in a skill tree and still progress. Path of Exile is a prime example of this.

Walking the blades edge is the game for me.

And given that we already have more then one way to progress, that's still a piss poor trade in my book.

[NeithanDiniem]

4 minutes ago, Phatose said:

Walking the blades edge is the game for me.

And given that we already have more then one way to progress, that's still a piss poor trade in my book.

Edge less please, sir or madam edgelord.

Do tell me how through a specific weapon's setup it isn't a blade's edge right now? That is the topic of this discussion, focusing on progression through how people mod specific weapons. If the only real customization they have is to choose a different weapon, that is also a "piss poor trade" in my book.

[Phatose]

7 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Edge less please, sir or madam edgelord.

Do tell me how through a specific weapon's setup it isn't a blade's edge right now? That is the topic of this discussion, focusing on progression through how people mod specific weapons. If the only real customization they have is to choose a different weapon, that is also a "piss poor trade" in my book.

Are you looking at what's being suggested?  Because that is exactly the scenario being suggested.

Every mod has a plus and a minus - therefore, on any given weapon, mods will be effectively required due to the lack of the minus being relevant.  We've seen this happen inwarframe already - old Heavy Caliber on recoil less weapons.  Fleeting expertise on any frame where duration wasn't used.

Make things plus/minus and all you accomplish is making mandatory mods mandatory on specific weapons or frames instead of globally which do not notice the minus.

 

[PatternistSlave]

They could always just add a few more slots.  Even if they don't it's frankly a small price to pay for weapons to be at least somewhat usable out of the gate.  If you're not a fan of weapon progression then you don't want dmg 2.0 the way they'd originally talked about it.  Right now it's "progress once and done"  Without Serrations and such it's "progress each and every weapon".

[NeithanDiniem]

1 minute ago, PatternistSlave said:

They could always just add a few more slots.  Even if they don't it's frankly a small price to pay for weapons to be at least somewhat usable out of the gate.  If you're not a fan of weapon progression then you don't want dmg 2.0 the way they'd originally talked about it.  Right now it's "progress once and done"  Without Serrations and such it's "progress each and every weapon".

More slots just compound the issue and powercreep explodes. All people would do is toss more elementals on.

[ashrah]

u cant make drastic changes just like that......game would lost to many ppl... they are invaste lot time and cash in it...game hold  good wepons... ppl have fun...