Please Undo Bladestorm Changes

[askaninja]

First, I am usually pretty neutral on most changes to this game. Being a founder, I have played this game quite a bit and rarely put my two cents in, unfortunately this is one of those times I think something needs to be said even if it is an echo of what other people have said.

I am disappointed in the recent change to Ash's bladestorm ability; more accurately the removal of his 4th ability. With his other abilities being sub-par compared to other frames similar powers, the change to bladestorm makes him move from one of the top frames and a personal favorite to worthless. Many say that he was overpowered, however I would claim they did not play ash much, for if they had they would have experienced the disorientation and vulnerable moments post bladestorm. To tune Ash for bladestorm took considerable time, resources, and mods, and this recent change destroyed all that work.

I am not sure what the rational was behind the change, however if we wanted tune for a teleport build we did. I played that build occasionally, however DE, you have removed our options to use bladestorm by moving from harder to use to making it infeasible to use. Yes, I understand how to use the new version of bladestorm, and that it is more effective against bosses (which are less that .01% of my runs). Now bladestorm works almost identically to teleport, meaning you waste lots of time targeting which doesn't make sense. No other frame required such tedious targeting abilities as Ash did previously, now the one good ability Ash had is terrible to use when swarmed by enemies.

I understand DE made well-intentioned changes to many things recently between Relic's, maps, and new gear. Although most of the changes tend to improve the game, not all changes end up for the better and this is one of them. I implore DE to revert the changes done to Ash's bladestorm to make Ash useful again. Something new was tried, and that's great when it works out, unfortunately this time it hasn't worked well. Please listen to us, your customers, and undo this change.

Edited January 9, 2017 by askaninja

[Devil_Zeldris]

And i liked this Ash's Rework. 
No more i don't see one-button Ashes in mission. 
Use all abilities. This is good. Not again I don't see in chat: i want to sleep, get to extract. After 400-800 cryo in excavation mission or 4-5 rounds in Interception mission.  
 

Edited January 9, 2017 by Paradigm_Revolution

[KaizergidorahXi]

I love Ash's rework. Makes him actually fun to play rather than just pushing one button.

[Nod_Legion]

Look there is big problem in discussions we lack information given by players and players not testing out and commenting and complaining.First of i pointed in some topic out hour ago that Ash rework might been a good one.Another issue is players not adjusting to situation and changes. Personally i lack Focus schools and Arcanes but i got other things.From playing Ash i have huge fun and the changes did improve Ash in my personal play a 100% but in dmg terms since i lack said 2 things i cant warranty that on higher difficulty Ash is good cause 1 reason.Lack of invisibility,lack of energy ( thx to Exilus burning up 4-5 of them) but when the situation allowed Having Energy Conversion and picking 1 orb with Combo multiplier 3x i had using BS dmg with 0 power strength from 4k to 8k and more doing + bleeding and slash procs Clearing some Heavy Bombards without prob in 2-3 seconds.My build has no Power Strength in it at all still Ash performed well in dmg apartment. But i was bound to be running around doing Mele and to keep me alive with it.Not to mention before Nerf i had to push 1 button now thx even to augment i use all skills depending on situation. But we are again here cause people are not adjusting to situation given to Nerf changes discussing things. Example was like the Saryn Nerf Hit us her skill now Toxic lash is dmg reduction on blocking and Mana provider but players when nerf hit all complained and did not accept the changes given to them.

[-InV-igo95862]

15 minutes ago, Paradigm_Revolution said:

No more i don't see Ashes in mission. 
.  
 

 

[(PSN)jedion]

pushing one button (nuke) and seeing every opponent goes down is a lot more fun to play, than targeting your opponent and target more opponents before pressing nuke but someone already killed them by the time yours is ready.

 

wish DE looks at how many people played saryn before the rework and After the rework and see if there are more people that plays it now or then. like how they check how many people used carrier before and now.

also check mag, mesa and ash, you rarely see these frames being used now. only a few percentage ask for rework and how many gets affected after....

 

 

Edited January 9, 2017 by (PS4)jedion

[VentiGlondi]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)jedion said:

pushing one button (nuke) and seeing every opponent goes down is a lot more fun to play, than targeting your opponent and target more opponents before pressing nuke but someone already killed them by the time yours is ready.

 

wish DE looks at how many people played saryn before the rework and After the rework and see if there are more people that plays it now or then. like how they check how many people used carrier before and now.

also check mag, mesa and ash, you rarely see these frames being used now. only a few percentage ask for rework and how many gets affected after....

What a shame you get to see more than 3 warframes out of 31.

[(PSN)joshw1400]

Do you Ash players not know what a 360 is?

[askaninja]

8 hours ago, (PS4)jedion said:

pushing one button (nuke) and seeing every opponent goes down is a lot more fun to play, than targeting your opponent and target more opponents before pressing nuke but someone already killed them by the time yours is ready.

 

wish DE looks at how many people played saryn before the rework and After the rework and see if there are more people that plays it now or then. like how they check how many people used carrier before and now.

also check mag and mesa, you rarely see these frames being used now. only a few percentage ask for rework and how many gets affected after....

 

 

Agreed. I played him a few missions to give the rework a chance. I don't mind change when it makes sense and the replacement is better than the previous state. This is not the case here. The new version of bladestorm puts a big dent in Ash's ability set, making him comparatively ineffective. I don't see anyone playing this frame anymore. I am not sure who asked for the change in the first place, but those people are not even using the frame now.

 

For a business analogy: When a change to a product causes a product to no longer be used, the smart thing to do is to roll back the change. If out of pride, or effort, or whatever you don't heed the effects to the thing done, and you repeat that with the rest of the products at a company, eventually that business goes under.

[Sargeant_Q]

I main Ash.  between normal and prime i have 42% of my play time on him.  And I love this change. I am actually using bladestorm more now than i did before the change.

Maybe its because i play with friends and we don't have massive nukes that are spammed (Synoid Simmlur),  But I have no problems marking, and can usually mark everything I want to within 10 seconds.  Unless i am marking the entire defense map.  Which i can actually do now. 

 

I realize that i am probably not going to get you to cahnge your mind.  But you should defiantly know that there are people out there who love the change.

[KaizergidorahXi]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)jedion said:

pushing one button (nuke) and seeing every opponent goes down is a lot more fun to play, than targeting your opponent and target more opponents before pressing nuke but someone already killed them by the time yours is ready.

 

wish DE looks at how many people played saryn before the rework and After the rework and see if there are more people that plays it now or then. like how they check how many people used carrier before and now.

also check mag, mesa and ash, you rarely see these frames being used now. only a few percentage ask for rework and how many gets affected after....

 

 

Just because it's fun doesn't mean it's good for the game. I'd much rather have something to kill for myself than for all the ash players to "have fun" and take every single kill with one button push. It may be fun for Ash, but not for anyone else.

[MrJxt]

4 minutes ago, askaninja said:

Agreed. I played him a few missions to give the rework a chance. I don't mind change when it makes sense and the replacement is better than the previous state. This is not the case here. The new version of bladestorm puts a big dent in Ash's ability set, making him comparatively ineffective. I don't see anyone playing this frame anymore. I am not sure who asked for the change in the first place, but those people are not even using the frame now.

 

For a business analogy: When a change to a product causes a product to no longer be used, the smart thing to do is to roll back the change. If out of pride, or effort, or whatever you don't heed the effects to the thing done, and you repeat that with the rest of the products at a company, eventually that business goes under.

You don't see many people playing ash after his rework because he is no longer press 4 to win. I'll admit I am guilty of doing this, I'm not an ash player and only used him to cheese grineer sortie defense when I was feeling lazy. The reason they changed bladestorm was to add more player interaction similar to Mesa's Peacemaker changes. Furthermore, bladestorm now gives the player the choice of who to target. Have you ever had bladestorm auto target multiple Disruptor Ancients and enemies with their aura? Well that shouldn't be a problem anymore.

[(PSN)joshw1400]

21 minutes ago, askaninja said:

Agreed. I played him a few missions to give the rework a chance. I don't mind change when it makes sense and the replacement is better than the previous state. This is not the case here. The new version of bladestorm puts a big dent in Ash's ability set, making him comparatively ineffective. I don't see anyone playing this frame anymore. I am not sure who asked for the change in the first place, but those people are not even using the frame now.

I've seen a lot of ash players recently and they seem to be all rocking that koga skin(like me). You probably haven't seen many ash mains and majority users were spammers.

[(PSN)xXBearPawz]

I still main ash lol love rework i can blade storm 60 plus targets even more then just 18 4 teleport is great now and smoke screen is usable in air the old ash is dead love rework 

Only ash noobs want bladestorm back to nuke mode dont even use his other abilites smh he actually feels way more ninja like with this rework 

[--RV--LadySpiderwick]

Mag, Mesa and Saryn used to be press 4 to win frames, now they need skill to use rather than just spamming 4 everytime. There was massive problems with the old bladestorm, pretty much ash could lock down an entire room and suck the fun out of going on a killing spree because ash steals all the kills. It's not the problem of "stealing" kills but the issue of locking down an entire room of enemies with no way to counter it. It's a start to improving bladestorm but not a final product to me personally.

[Birdframe_Prime]

5 hours ago, askaninja said:

--- To tune Ash for bladestorm took considerable time, resources, and mods, and this recent change destroyed all that work.

I am not sure what the rational was behind the change, however if we wanted tune for a teleport build we did. ---

Well to chuck my coins in the pond, I think this is the point in your discourse where you've hit the nail on the head without realising it. And to be clear, I'm on the side that likes the rework, because of how experienced players like yourself have come to this view-point.

You're right, building a Bladestorm Ash did take work, but once you had, that was it. Nothing else was needed. The fact that, if you wanted to mod for Teleport, you still could do that, simply didn't change the fact that 90% or more of the Ash players in game didn't.

The reason Bladestorm was changed wasn't because of players like you, who played Ash regularly for his usefulness in all kinds of missions, who would try out the augments when they appeared and see if the playstyle was interesting and fun or not, who used his other abilities effectively. It was changed due to the thousands upon thousands of players who simply built an Ash, put the appropriate forma on him, modded him for Bladestorm and pressed nothing but 4 the entire game.

You, my friend, were in the vast minority of players who actually played Ash. The majority abused Ash. Even I was guilty of it, taking him to those daily Sorties that were so annoying without an insta-kill on enemies.

Teleport was a little buggy, and had a nice insta-assassinate mechanic, but why when Bladestorm hit 18 targets at once? Smokescreen turned you invisible to stealth through a room and to deal with tricky areas, but why use it when two presses of Bladestorm from just outside the room or behind cover cleared every enemy and let you carry on without needing stealth? Shuriken could use its augment to strip enemy armour, but why bother when Bladestorm dealt Finisher and Bleed damage, which ignore armour? There was literally no downside to a Bladestorm spam build as far as his other abilities were concerned.

Now Teleport goes to anything with a health bar, offering hugely improved movement, Smokescreen can be cast while moving, again offering huge movement buffs along with a reduction to energy cost while Bladestorm marking.

Bladestorm itself hasn't actually changed in terms of what it does, just how you do it. If you can't adapt to a simple change in the activation of the ability, then I would suggest that you simply need to adjust your reaction to panic situations in game. You can't hit 4 every time now, you have to use other abilities, and I've found, as somebody who played Ash a lot less than Loki in the past, that my default reaction of 'oh crap, go invisible' actually works now with Ash too. Since other warframes don't make as much use of their 4, a player coming in after playing all of those now finds Ash works almost the same way. His 2 and 3 are his bread-and-butter abilities now, and his 4 is for when you have the strategic advantage. Not for something to press when you have to sneeze and don't want to play for ten seconds.

More than that, the simple fact that, should you not want to hit 18 times every time, you can just hit the amount you want, assassinate a napalm, bombard and heavy gunner, and then stop when you mean to. I found that if I pressed 4 at the wrong time, I would end up stabbing and stabbing and stabbing the same Napalm until he died like some deranged movie villain and looking like a complete idiot, because Ash attacked the same amount of times or until death of all targets, whichever came first.

Honestly speaking, from an outside objective view of the frame, Bladestorm should have been like this from the start. If it had been, the frame would have been far more balanced through its life, and we wouldn't have had hundreds of Spamstorm players running around blitzing maps and making it un-fun for other players in the first place. Then, any buff they could have done, such as increased mark speeds or a cone-of-effect marking, maybe an augment that radially marked like the old Bladstorm did, would have actually been a welcome and optional change that players could exploit and nobody now would have felt that bad about it.

5 hours ago, (PS4)jedion said:

pushing one button (nuke) and seeing every opponent goes down is a lot more fun to play

My friend, you have a very different idea of fun than a lot of the rest of us. If we wanted to go on a point-and-click adventure, we wouldn't be playing Warframe. Watching ten seconds of animation every time you press 4, with no other interaction, no other involvement... no actual skill? That's boring to so many players. Bladestorm Ash and the Greedy-Mag-Peacemaker-Mesa combo are why DE have implemented systems like the AFK timer, because people would literally macro Ash and go have a cup of coffee while it did the mission for them, it was that boring a style to play.

5 hours ago, (PS4)jedion said:

also check mag, mesa and ash, you rarely see these frames being used now.

As far as I've seen, what's dropped off in games are the cheese players. I now see Mag, Mesa, Ash and even Saryn players more regularly actually contributing to game play in general. Mag players are now appearing on high level Grineer and Infested maps, where they never were before, thanks to Magnetise being damn useful against everything, and Saryn players are actually scoring highest damage numbers on both Sorties and the Kuva Flood missions (the level 80-100 variant of Kuva farming), while Mesa players are still appearing on all levels of Defense, Mobile Defense and similar, thanks to the fact that their 4 (despite manual targeting) is even more powerful now thanks to scaling off secondary mods.

Ash is the same way, I see serious Ash players now, not cheese players. If an Ash player is in mission with me now, they press 4 less, but often have things like the Smoke Shadow augment and use that to actively cloak players in trouble, or are using Teleport actively to move between threats and objectives to be present everywhere, and when they do press 4, it's usually for a spectacular room clear that's far more effective than the old Bladestorm was due to having infinite targeting.

tl;dr

Guys, come on, we need to let go of the past. DE will never revert Bladestorm because of all the reasons they changed it in the first place. Ash wasn't meant to be a Spam 4 frame, any more than Excalibur was.

We need to look at Ash the way he is now, and see what we can suggest to work on improving the mechanic DE have implemented, rather than trying to get them to go back on their decision.

[Somethinglurks]

4 hours ago, Thaylien said:

 

We need to look at Ash the way he is now, and see what we can suggest to work on improving the mechanic DE have implemented, rather than trying to get them to go back on their decision.

Can we start with removing the 3 marks system?  Moving to a one mark system would fix the biggest issue I have with the rework.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Just now, Somethinglurks said:

Can we start with removing the 3 marks system?  Moving to a one mark system would fix the biggest issue I have with the rework.

Except what would you do if you wanted extra damage to that mark? Having an optional extra attack or two is very useful considering that, with this rework making his other abilities better, a more balanced build works better for him than the old Bladestorm build does, so you're not hitting as hard as you would usually.

I mean, only asking, but what's wrong with the extra marks? You don't have to use them, and it doesn't cause you to see more animations, it just gives you the option to say 'hit this one guy really hard' where the previous you would kind of have to RNG which of the enemies you attacked with which number of attacks.

[Somethinglurks]

When the rework first came out, the youtubers all came out and showed videos of them throwing their mice wildly around the desk to mark all the targets multiple times.  Granted that's more of a silly reaction and not something I personally do.  I feel BS should just have one setting for how hard it hits.  I don't like that if I want it to hit harder on this one person, I have to mark them more times.  

I want BS sped up, I feel that the three mark system slowed it down too much. 

But that's just my opinion!

[Pizzarugi]

My problem with Ash's bladestorm is that he no longer has clones to help him kill enemies. If you mark a whole dense cluster of enemies multiple times, you have to sit and watch as he deals with them all one-by-one. It's slow and I wind up getting most of my energy refunded anyway due to teammates wiping out almost all of them much faster than you.

[Sargeant_Q]

12 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

My problem with Ash's bladestorm is that he no longer has clones to help him kill enemies. If you mark a whole dense cluster of enemies multiple times, you have to sit and watch as he deals with them all one-by-one. It's slow and I wind up getting most of my energy refunded anyway due to teammates wiping out almost all of them much faster than you.

He does have clones.  They are the ones who do the multiple hits per target.  You don't normally see them because they are very fast about it.  But i have marked the same target multiple times and watched my clones do the rest of the hits.

[Naftal]

They should just make the clones do all the bladestorming while Ash can play the game.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Just now, Naftal said:

They should just make the clones do all the bladestorming while Ash can play the game.

Or, shift it around so the clones do the first two hits, and Ash does the third for emphasis!

[Naftal]

Just now, Thaylien said:

Or, shift it around so the clones do the first two hits, and Ash does the third for emphasis!

Or just let Ash play the game and not look at boring cutscenes.

[rudman88]

dont bother

1. most of the people here, not in game love the change

2. Instead of all around ash ( within radius) it will target the screen ( all once ) then u need to mark them 2 more times for 3 hit

-> i find this acceptable

3. you are like few months late