Slash Vs. Toxin Stealth DoT

[(PSN)Crixus044]

So I have a more detailed question about how the DoT works with stealth. According to my clanmates, slash is better DoT with stealth, toxin is better damage without stealth, and gas is better for groups with and without stealth. Why is that?

Supposedly, slash gets the 8x stealth multiplier of the initial attack and an 8x stealth multiplier on each tick of damage over time, while toxin and gas toxin aoe procs get the 8x stealth multiplier on the initial hit alone and the damage over time will be 50% of that damage without another stealth multiplier. So a weapon that deals 100 damage with slash proc will get 800 initial damage and 8x 35% of the damage over 7 ticks so 800*.35*8 = 2240 damage per tick while on toxin or gas proc, it will be 800 initial damage and 50% of that damage over 9 ticks, so 800*.50 = 400.

Please clear this up for me, because I'm getting conflicting responses from my clan and region. Thank you.

 

[Chewarette]

As far as I understood, Gas status deals a 125% Toxin damage per tick, while "pure" Toxin status deals a 50% Toxin damage per tick.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_2.0/Toxin_Damage

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_2.0/Gas_Damage

Edited January 20, 2017 by Chewarette

[Xzorn]

Slash, Toxic and Gas status are all affected by melee stealth multipliers.

Toxic is not really a comparison to the other two however the Toxic DoT produced by Gas and the Bleed produced by Slash status are pretty evenly matched against armor.

The reason for this is because Gas procs double dip into stealth multipliers producing a highly amplified DoT effect compared to Slash.

When comparing the flat damage Bleed does not come close to Gas Status however when considering armor mitigation they're fairly similar.

In my Testing against lvl 145 Alloy armor I saw fairly similar DoT numbers form both. Theoretically Bleed would eventually win on a single target however Gas status is an AoE DoT effect with an additional AoE direct damage based on a higher percentage value and both of which receive stealth multipliers.

Edited January 20, 2017 by Xzorn

[ranks21]

gas all the way, lets break it down to baby form>>>>

gas = suffocate the enemies to death leaving them with all their armor and shields intact while other statuses actually struggles.

gas+slash is king and makes most weapons with slash endgame worthy once the proc kick in add a duration mod in the mix for more lels.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

On 1/20/2017 at 5:29 AM, Xzorn said:

Slash, Toxic and Gas status are all affected by melee stealth multipliers.

Toxic is not really a comparison to the other two however the Toxic DoT produced by Gas and the Bleed produced by Slash status are pretty evenly matched against armor.

The reason for this is because Gas procs double dip into stealth multipliers producing a highly amplified DoT effect compared to Slash.

When comparing the flat damage Bleed does not come close to Gas Status however when considering armor mitigation they're fairly similar.

In my Testing against lvl 145 Alloy armor I saw fairly similar DoT numbers form both. Theoretically Bleed would eventually win on a single target however Gas status is an AoE DoT effect with an additional AoE direct damage based on a higher percentage value and both of which receive stealth multipliers.

What do you mean double dip? Does each tick of damage get multiplied by a stealth multiplier, or just the initial hit?

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

What do you mean double dip? Does each tick of damage get multiplied by a stealth multiplier, or just the initial hit?

 

Gas procs use stealth multipliers more than once in their calculation.

Spoiler

In this pic you can see the white numbers at the bottom and back left is my damage without stealth multipliers because I'm touching the enemy. These numbers correspond with the wiki. The AoE Toxic proc damage (7,650 and 5,429) is less than the initial hit (12,487) which caused the proc and the resulting Toxic DoT (7,278) is slightly less per tick than the AoE.

If you look at the yellow (Stealth) numbers on the enemy next to him with the same hit you'll see the AoE is being multiplied by stealth and the Toxic DoT tick is severely greater than the AoE proc showing that stealth multipliers were used once again and multiplied with each other in the damage calculation.

Edited January 22, 2017 by Xzorn

[shut]

Just to add clarity about DoT procs and Stealth multipliers:

- Stealth multiplier is 8x. ^{(Certain weapons may be bugged to have lower multipliers. The Kesheg and Broken Scepter, for example, had 2x multipliers last time I checked.)}
- DoTs will scale from both the damage of the hit that caused the proc (ignoring armor, in Slash's case) AND the stealth multiplier itself.
- Gas procs produce a small Toxic cloud whose damage scales from the initial hit. This cloud will then produce a Toxic DoT whose damage scales from the cloud damage-- which causes the "double-dipping" (or triple-dipping, if the stealth multiplier doesn't break) effect.

- When you are undetected or invisible, the first hit you land will deal 8x damage (and then the stealth multiplier breaks). This causes most DoTs to deal 8x their usual damage, and causes Gas DoTs to deal 64x damage.
- When the enemy is in a "forced unawareness" state (e.g. Blinded, Sleeping, hit by Savage Silence repeatedly, etc), all hits you land will deal 8x damage (without breaking the stealth multiplier), thus allowing the DoTs to continue scaling from it. This causes most DoTs to deal 64x their usual damage, and causes Gas DoTs to deal 512x damage.

 

 

The last time I confirmed these calculations via testing was several months ago, but if nothing has changed since then, they should still apply now.
The double- and triple-dipping is why Gas builds are so effective on frames that can use stealth multipliers (e.g. Loki, Ash, Naramon-users), and borderline broken on frames that can force unawareness on large crowds (e.g. Excalibur, Inaros, Savage Silence Banshee ^{(to a lesser extent)}).

Edited January 22, 2017 by SortaRandom

[DatDarkOne]

The stealth damage of Gas is very easy to see using a gas build Orvius and charge throw attack. There's a YouTube video showing it taking out a group of lvl 140 Grineer Bombards in just a few seconds. I can't remember the video or the youtuber at the moment.

After seeing that video and Rob's armor bypassing melee builds, I've switched to bleed and gas on most of my weapons that will allow that combination.

[Xzorn]

They really should just get rid of melee stealth multipliers outside executes. There's a dozen ways to exploit it these days.

Savage Silence is one of the worst offenders. From what I've tested on that mod any forced animation will cause an enemy to take stealth multipliers.

Even Heat / Electric status procs.

 

[shut]

6 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Savage Silence is one of the worst offenders. From what I've tested on that mod any forced animation will cause an enemy to take stealth multipliers.

Even Heat / Electric status procs.

Wait, are you saying that Heat/Electric procs will force unawareness and enable multiple stealth multipliers?

I haven't used Heat in ages, but I don't recall ever seeing that from Electric procs.

Edited January 22, 2017 by SortaRandom

[Xzorn]

9 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

Wait, are you saying that Heat/Electric procs will force unawareness and enable multiple stealth multipliers?

I haven't used Heat in ages, but I don't recall ever seeing that from Electric procs.

 

I just did a quick test with it using Savage Silence, Ignis and Zenistar.

I dropped the disc then used Silence and obviously got multipliers during the stun animation.

I then used Silence, waited for the stun to end, then threw the disc. made sure I was getting white numbers off the disc, then shot the enemy with ignis forcing a Heat proc and soon as they started the Heat CC animation I got yellow numbers from the Disc.

[shut]

7 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

I just did a quick test with it using Savage Silence, Ignis and Zenistar.

I dropped the disc then used Silence and obviously got multipliers during the stun animation.

I then used Silence, waited for the stun to end, then threw the disc. made sure I was getting white numbers off the disc, then shot the enemy with ignis forcing a Heat proc and soon as they started the Heat CC animation I got yellow numbers from the Disc.

Whoa. That's cool.

If this applies to Electric procs as well, then I'm already imagining all the shenanigans that could be pulled off with an Electric+Gas melee weapon. Time to do some testing!

[Xzorn]

6 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

Whoa. That's cool.

If this applies to Electric procs as well, then I'm already imagining all the shenanigans that could be pulled off with an Electric+Gas melee weapon. Time to do some testing!

 

The Electric was an assumption since I saw it working for Volt's Discharge ability in a group and they're the same animation just different mechanic.

Let me know what you find out, like I said I just did a quick test and it was only with Zenistar since that's the weapon I noticed giving a TON of yellow numbers for seemingly no reason. The Banshee in the group was not spamming Savage Silence and the enemies had line of sight.

[Rambit23Z]

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

 

The Electric was an assumption since I saw it working for Volt's Discharge ability in a group and they're the same animation just different mechanic.

Let me know what you find out, like I said I just did a quick test and it was only with Zenistar since that's the weapon I noticed giving a TON of yellow numbers for seemingly no reason. The Banshee in the group was not spamming Savage Silence and the enemies had line of sight.

Don't forget that knockdown can cause enemies to be un-alerted. I use that a lot with Saryn on tougher enemies.

[shut]

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

 

The Electric was an assumption since I saw it working for Volt's Discharge ability in a group and they're the same animation just different mechanic.

Let me know what you find out, like I said I just did a quick test and it was only with Zenistar since that's the weapon I noticed giving a TON of yellow numbers for seemingly no reason. The Banshee in the group was not spamming Savage Silence and the enemies had line of sight.

I did a couple minutes of testing just now. The fire/elec procs (which both behave the same way, awareness-wise) seem to behave similarly to ragdolling (which I tested with rather inconclusive results sometime last year).

 

Ragdolling enemies seems to prevent them from properly refreshing their "awareness" of an attacker, in certain situations.

- If you keep an enemy in a ragdoll-lock (e.g. spamming Redeemer charge attacks at point-blank range), you'll sometimes get multiple consecutive stealth multipliers-- even when visible and not affected by any other ability. ^{(This is VERY inconsistent, though, and I haven't figured out how to reliably replicate it-- 90% of the time, the numbers just stay white.)}
- If you keep an enemy in a ragdoll-lock AND you're using an ability that somehow affects awareness (e.g. Invisibility or Not-Savage Silence), then using the above method is practically guaranteed to force endless stealth multipliers after ~2 seconds of the initial ragdoll-- as long as they don't get up all the way sometime in between. ^{(Sadly, I haven't figured out why on earth Silence activates this as well when it should only affect sound. It seems to rework regardless of whether you ragdoll an enemy during the stun or whether you ragdoll a Silence'd enemy while it's angrily shooting you.)}

And, today's findings:
- stunlocking enemies with Fire and Electric procs produces an identical effect to ragdolling. ^{(EXCEPT: When using Silence, the effect will break if you are in front of your enemy during the stunlock. Unlike ragdolling, their eyes still seem to function during fire/elec procs.)}

 

So basically:
Ragdolls and Fire/Elec procs can reliably lead to multiple consecutive stealth multipliers, if you can keep them CC'd nonstop AND you're using a detection-affecting ability like Invis or Silence. (If using Silence and Fire/Elec procs, then the multiple consecutive stealth multipliers only apply if you don't wander into the enemy's cone of vision.)

Edited January 23, 2017 by SortaRandom

[shut]

Uh-oh.

This is unrelated to the fire/elec proc thing, but it turns out that melee DoTs (and, for that matter, the initial hit of Telos Boltace's slide attack wave) don't cancel the stealth multiplier anymore-- meaning that the Telos Boltace just went from "straight-up broken on Excal+Inaros+SavageBanshee, and pretty okay on everything else" to "straight-up broken on Excal+Inaros+SavageBanshee+LiterallyAnythingThatCanTurnInvisible, and pretty okay on everything else".

 

EDIT: Turns out that melee in general doesn't cancel the stealth multiplier when invisible. As long as you don't bump into enemies, have fun spamming endless stealth multipliers on every single (sufficiently large) weapon before it gets fixed!

Edited January 24, 2017 by SortaRandom

[Xzorn]

12 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

And, today's findings:
- stunlocking enemies with Fire and Electric procs produces an identical effect to ragdolling. ^{(EXCEPT: When using Silence, the effect will break if you are in front of your enemy during the stunlock. Unlike ragdolling, their eyes still seem to function during fire/elec procs.)}

So basically:
Ragdolls and Fire/Elec procs can reliably lead to multiple consecutive stealth multipliers IF you can keep them CC'd consistently, while using a detection-affecting ability like Invis or Silence. (If using Silence and Fire/Elec procs, then the multiple consecutive stealth multipliers only apply if you don't wander into the enemy's cone of vision.)

 

This is just about what I came to.

While using the non-augmented Silence I could get stealth multipliers if I ducked behind a corner with Silence active but I could not get them by forcing a Heat proc while standing in front of them. With Savage Silence however I was able to get stealth multipliers in both cases.

I assume this is a byproduct of the "Opens enemies to finisher attacks" effect that's part of Savage Silence which is forcing unaware status on enemies during various animations or maybe opening enemies to finishers was not intended in the first place. I didn't actually check to see if I could perform a finisher when the enemy was unaware due to a Heat proc.

[shut]

16 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

I assume this is a byproduct of the "Opens enemies to finisher attacks" effect that's part of Savage Silence which is forcing unaware status on enemies during various animations or maybe opening enemies to finishers was not intended in the first place.

Maybe the release of Savage Silence caused unaugmented Silence to behave strangely with stealth multipliers? 
Kinda like how Radial Blind didn't allow for multiple consecutive stealth multipliers until the Radiant Finish augment was released (except how the unaugmented Blind became a straight-up "forced unawareness, but without the Finisher prompt", as opposed to Silence's weird "prevents enemies from regaining awareness ONLY if they're CC'd somehow" behaviour).

But yeah, the Finisher prompt won't appear from a heat proc. They don't seem to get thrown around as easily as stealth multipliers do (forced or otherwise); I haven't seen a single case where a Finisher prompt appeared unexpectedly.

Edited January 23, 2017 by SortaRandom

[(PSN)Crixus044]

12 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

-snip-

 

12 hours ago, Xzorn said:

-snip-

 

12 hours ago, Rambit23Z said:

-snip-

Thank you all three of you for your help and input. Is been difficult being away from warframe for over a month, I forget a lot of stuff I use to know. I know about the knockdown ability to cause stealth multipliers. It happens consistently on the enemies "getting up" animation. It's a alert window where the alertness of an enemy is reset. It's a technique I've mastered with the jat kittag and it's enormous ragdoll range. It's essential to time ground finishers to this window in order to get the maximum use out of them.

The other method is just smashing them so hard, that they basically forget who they are and just stand there. I don't know how to consistently trigger this "coma slam" as I call it, but my theory is that it happens when an enemy takes a ragdoll and multiple blast procs at once. This is from my observation of this happening to grineer Hellions most often, as the jat kittag detonate rockets mid flight with it's aoe slam, plus the innate blast damage of the AoE slam and the ragdoll effect. 

The third ragdoll technique I use extensively is the best scaling damage technique in game, ragdoll them out of bounds. They'll instantly die no matter what level. But, you don't get the affinity or kill credit. 

Fire use to get stealth multipliers only if you aren't in their line of sight, much like bastille and rhino stomp. I don't recall this working on electric procs like volt, or else my volt buddy would have told me, but if it is true, my volt is gonna have a nice meeting with my atterax. One evidence to support this is that the mod Retribution allows for finishers to proc on electric procs, as well as stealth multipliers, but I don't know if this transfers over to regular electric procs and powers.

From what I've gathered about slash vs. Gas/toxin,  I'm gonna make an example and I hope you guys can correct me or affirm me on this. Again thank you so much, it's good to spread the word on our academia lol

100 damage slash attack on blinded grineer gets multiplied by 8 to be 800. This would make each tick of damage normally 280. Since he's blinded, the stealth multiplier doesn't break, therefore each tick also gets multiplied by 8 to be 2240 per tick. Each tick ignores armor.

100 damage toxin attack on blinded grineer gets multiplied by 8 to be 800. This would make each tick of damage normally 400. Since he's blinded, the stealth multiplier doesn't break, therefore each tick also gets multiplied by 8 to be 4800 per tick. Each tick ignores armor.

100 damage gas attack on blinded grineer gets multiplied by 8 to be 800 in an AoE. This would make each tick of damage normally 400 aoe. Since he's blinded, the stealth multiplier doesn't break, therefore each tick also gets multiplied by 8 to be 4800 per tick in an AoE. Each tick ignores armor.

Am I missing anything?

Edited January 23, 2017 by (PS4)Crixus044

[Rambit23Z]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Am I missing anything?

Only bleed ignores armour.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

Just now, Rambit23Z said:

Only bleed ignores armour.

Perfect, thank you Rambit23Z. That's exactly what I was looking for. 

[shut]

12 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

100 damage gas attack on blinded grineer gets multiplied by 8 to be 800 in an AoE. This would make each tick of damage normally 400 aoe. Since he's blinded, the stealth multiplier doesn't break, therefore each tick also gets multiplied by 8 to be 4800 per tick in an AoE. Each tick ignores armor.

Am I missing anything?

Not quite. The main thing about Gas procs is that it's not a simple "Creates a DoT scaling from the weapon's damage" calculation like Bleed/Toxic/Fire are.
 

Let's say you land a Toxic proc on a Blind enemy. Two instances of damage happen:
1. The initial hit deals 8x damage.
2. The hit produces a Toxic proc. Because the stealth multiplier doesn't break, this DoT deals 64x its usual damage.

Now let's say you land a Gas proc on a Blind enemy. Three instances of damage happen:
1. The initial hit deals 8x damage.
2. The initial hit produces a cloud which deals a single tick of Toxic damage in an AoE. Because the stealth multiplier doesn't break, this tick deals 64x its usual damage.
3. This tick ^{(NOT the initial hit)} produces a Toxic proc. Because the stealth multiplier doesn't break, this DoT deals 512x its usual damage.

 

I would've explained it using the "100 Gas damage" thing, but sadly, the wiki's values for the proc damage (http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Gas) seem to be incorrect upon testing. I don't know where they got "Immediate cloud damage equal to (PhysicalDamage + ToxinDamage)/2" and "DoT ticks each deal 125% of the weapons total Toxin damage" from, but I cannot reproduce it for the life of me.

What I DID verify, though, is that your weapon's Toxin damage is what determines a gas proc's damage (both the cloud and the DoT). If you deal 100 Gas damage (10 Fire + 90 Toxin), then your Gas proc will be WAY stronger than if you were to deal 100 Gas damage (90 Fire + 10 Toxin).

(All of this was tested with the Silva&Aegis, by the way, so I didn't account for physical damage in any of my calculations.)

Edited January 24, 2017 by SortaRandom

[Xzorn]

9 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

I would've explained it using the "100 Gas damage" thing, but sadly, the wiki's values for the proc damage (http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Gas) seem to be incorrect upon testing. I don't know where they got "Immediate cloud damage equal to (PhysicalDamage + ToxinDamage)/2" and "DoT ticks each deal 125% of the weapons total Toxin damage" from, but I cannot reproduce it for the life of me.

 

I'd glad you said this.

I've had the exact same problems which has kept me from saying in detail exactly what's going on with Gas procs because every time I try to validate it with math the number never come out right. I got into an augment with someone who was trying to say because it's been going on so long that it must be intended since they fix weapons / mod exploits with relative speed. I tried to explain that DE is paralyzed in fear of touching the Damage system and the numbers are so drastically out of proportion to the damage types typical behavior that there's no way it could be intended but there's really no way to prove either.

I really think they should just get rid of stealth multipliers, they seem to be a complete mess and melee doesn't really need them anymore.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

44 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

I'd glad you said this.

I've had the exact same problems which has kept me from saying in detail exactly what's going on with Gas procs because every time I try to validate it with math the number never come out right. I got into an augment with someone who was trying to say because it's been going on so long that it must be intended since they fix weapons / mod exploits with relative speed. I tried to explain that DE is paralyzed in fear of touching the Damage system and the numbers are so drastically out of proportion to the damage types typical behavior that there's no way it could be intended but there's really no way to prove either.

I really think they should just get rid of stealth multipliers, they seem to be a complete mess and melee doesn't really need them anymore.

I would agree, or at least not be 8x damage, because of what you guys say is true, gas and slash damage truly are the best scaling damage in game with stealth. Corrosive with its 75% damage increase and 75% armor ignore is pointless when you can get these ridiculous numbers and/or armor ignore.

If I am able to get back on my console and test this out, I would love to add to this topic. I can't thank you guys enough.

[Epsik-kun]

Any kind of enemy obstruction forces stealth multipliers onto enemies if the player is invisible. Even a knockdown from a blast proc.

[DatDarkOne]

22 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

What I DID verify, though, is that your weapon's Toxin damage is what determines a gas proc's damage (both the cloud and the DoT). If you deal 100 Gas damage (10 Fire + 90 Toxin), then your Gas proc will be WAY stronger than if you were to deal 100 Gas damage (90 Fire + 10 Toxin).

Thank you for this info.