Another gimmick frame

[tbeest]

34 minutes ago, ChargeBeam said:

1. Sounds are situational...? Last I checked, every inch of this game has sound effects. Even space. And that's not even how space works. Volt's Ult was situational because not every tile has light fixtures or ones that counted towards his ultimate. Meaning he was really only useful on the tileset that had an insane amount of light fixtures: Corpus ships.

2. What's stopping people from cramming all available notes in the first two rows is that if you actually make a tune, it would sound nice. Additionally, having a consistent sound would (as they said) be more along the lines of a DoT effect where the individual pulses would be weaker. Single notes would be more bursty.

3.

 

1. Not every place has the same level of noise

2. Why go for DoT when you could kill all enemies at once? Point I'm trying to make is that there will probably be one or two effective ways of making "sound" and DE will probably have to try very hard to make those two ways sound good as well.

Edited January 21, 2017 by tbeest

[IX-44]

Just now, tbeest said:

1. Not every place has the same level of noise

2. Why go for DoT when you could kill all enemies at once? Point I'm trying to make is that there will be one or two effective ways of making "sound" and DE will probably have to try very hard to make those two ways sound good as well.

1. Not every planet has animals right now, but Oberon's passive is still his passive.

2. Flexibility. You could have 1 ability be a DoT and have another be a burst. Or one be a burst, and another be a DoT.

Keep in mind, I'm not using these in the specific context of damage. Assuming all of the bard frames abilities will do damage based on their beats and pulses is silly.

[tbeest]

11 minutes ago, ChargeBeam said:

1. Not every planet has animals right now, but Oberon's passive is still his passive.

2. Flexibility. You could have 1 ability be a DoT and have another be a burst. Or one be a burst, and another be a DoT.

Keep in mind, I'm not using these in the specific context of damage. Assuming all of the bard frames abilities will do damage based on their beats and pulses is silly.

1. None of the older frames that got their passives later on have (very) useful passives nor do they rely upon them. Having an actual ability (set?) based on something not consistent is different.

2. When min-maxing there's usually only one or two ways to go about things. Be it damage or something else. I could start writing down an entire list of frames here but I don't think that's necessary. 
Of course, you don't have to go the optimal way so the the frame can be fun and have it make nice music but that's what would make it gimmicky, in my opinion. And, with the info they gave us, this seems like a likely scenario to me, given they stick to what they said.
Which is why I would like to put in my two cents that those ideas don't seem like a good idea to me.

Edited January 21, 2017 by tbeest

[Sirfol]

1 hour ago, tbeest said:

1. None of the older frames that got their passives later on have (very) useful passives nor do they rely upon them. Having an actual ability (set?) based on something not consistent is different.

2. When min-maxing there's usually only one or two ways to go about things. Be it damage or something else. I could start writing down an entire list of frames here but I don't think that's necessary. 
Of course, you don't have to go the optimal way so the the frame can be fun and have it make nice music but that's what would make it gimmicky, in my opinion. And, with the info they gave us, this seems like a likely scenario to me, given they stick to what they said.
Which is why I would like to put in my two cents that those ideas don't seem like a good idea to me.

So u are using the argument " u don't need to be a chef to know food tastes bad".

i don't want to attack u but u are making a assumption, it can be either right or wrong but with the little information we have (they didn't show the abilities, stats, and how mod influence them) ur bound to gamble to lose ur credibility on the argument, and maybe losing a frame u will like because u based ur entire opinion on 1 feature a warframe has. We knew atlas was a brawler, surprise he is a summoner, he have CC and can block things with walls, and it is a brawler thanks to the 1st ability.

[ThunderZsolt]

13 hours ago, tbeest said:

"Amplify ambient sound to increase damage" sounds too situational (remember old Volt ult?). I think the sounds in-game shouldn't affect the damage output in any way.

Works well with Mirage's Eclipse ability.

[tbeest]

2 hours ago, Sirfol said:

So u are using the argument " u don't need to be a chef to know food tastes bad".

i don't want to attack u but u are making a assumption, it can be either right or wrong but with the little information we have (they didn't show the abilities, stats, and how mod influence them) ur bound to gamble to lose ur credibility on the argument, and maybe losing a frame u will like because u based ur entire opinion on 1 feature a warframe has. We knew atlas was a brawler, surprise he is a summoner, he have CC and can block things with walls, and it is a brawler thanks to the 1st ability.

I'm using the argument "ey maybe 'u' should reconsider this feature because it doesn't look like it'll work out". I'm not making DE do jack S#&$. If they take my thoughts in consideration; great! If they don't, I'll still hope for the best.

 

1 hour ago, ThunderZsolt said:

Works well with Mirage's Eclipse ability.

At least there's a clear indication of shadow/light. And it's either 1 or 0, not a great spectrum of slightly louder or softer than the other area.

[Somb3rBivalve]

17 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

I'd much rather have a new frame with unique mechanics, even if it is a bit situational, than just a remix of existing abilities under different names.

Hah, a "remix" of abilities. I see what you did there

[Ryouhi]

The whole sound level aplifying her effectiveness sounded unecessary to me, unless our guns count too i guess.

 

I personally hope they don't go the deployables way with her abilities they talked about.

 

The rest from the recent dev stream sounded pretty cool

[JalakBali]

Every single frame is a gimmick frame.

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

I like that the devs are experimenting with new ideas, but anyone else kinda craving a new ninja frame?  I mean Ash, Loki, Ivara, etc. kind of thing, but new and different of course.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

Bard frame = when did destiny emojis arrive? 

[METAL_BAWKSES]

I personally love the idea and will be making a Noise Marine themed frame the moment she comes out. Oh yes, it will be time to Bring the Noise, indeed. 

[tbeest]

8 hours ago, JalakBali said:

Every single frame is a gimmick frame.

When something works/is useful I tend not to call it a gimmick. But maybe my understanding of the word is wrong.
Maybe I should've given my original post a different title though, because I'm mainly complaining about the way her abilities would scale.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

I share some of your concern.  it all sounds very ambitious.  I wouldn't want another archwing situation.  However until we get some more solid details on the abilities and the interconnectivity of her kit i'm going to withold myself.

[JalakBali]

2 hours ago, tbeest said:

When something works/is useful I tend not to call it a gimmick. But maybe my understanding of the word is wrong.
Maybe I should've given my original post a different title though, because I'm mainly complaining about the way her abilities would scale.

Then your concern is that her abilities might not be effective. Except they haven't even said how her abilities would work. We don't even know if she's going to be a damage dealer, support, crowd control or mix of some or all. They're adding the gimmick on how her powers would be activated because they thought it might make her gameplay different than the other frames. It's a legit concern. Just not as much related to the system they're making. And they pretty much said if you don't like fooling around with the music maker you just use preset ones, so it would work pretty much like any other power.

[tbeest]

14 minutes ago, JalakBali said:

Then your concern is that her abilities might not be effective. Except they haven't even said how her abilities would work. We don't even know if she's going to be a damage dealer, support, crowd control or mix of some or all. They're adding the gimmick on how her powers would be activated because they thought it might make her gameplay different than the other frames. It's a legit concern. Just not as much related to the system they're making. And they pretty much said if you don't like fooling around with the music maker you just use preset ones, so it would work pretty much like any other power.

They have said exactly how her abilities will work. Whether they will do damage or something else, they've said exactly how they will work.
At least, what their current plan was. And I want to give my thoughts on what their current plan is because that is all they've said. Check back on the original post of this thread, I edited some different parts to it. That might explain it a bit better.

If her abilities will scale with the music there will be only one or two effective ways of doing things. That's just how it works.

Take Trinity as an example, you go for max duration to get the best out of blessing or you go for minimal duration to get the most out of EV.
You go with a fast beat to achieve result A or a slow beat for result B. Unless they will put a ton of effort into it there won't be any in-betweens. Obviously this is a minmaxing scenario, and you'll probably be able to make all kinds of nice music (I will try). But in the end 90% of people will run with whatever is the most effective at giving result A or B and nothing else. That, is my concern.
You can try to disagree with me on that with arguments such as "I wouldn't" but you are not 90% of the community. I don't use the Secura Lecta to farm credits on Akkad, no, but everyone else does.

The whole "sound amplifier" thing will just be a pain, for it will have many variables making her powers less effective in most cases because there's only a few spots with the most noise.

 

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)Knight Raime said:

I share some of your concern.  it all sounds very ambitious.  I wouldn't want another archwing situation.  However until we get some more solid details on the abilities and the interconnectivity of her kit i'm going to withold myself.

I'd rather give my suggestions now than have a broken frame at release and then wait for over a year until a rework hits.

Edited January 22, 2017 by tbeest

[Othergrunty]

There is indeed a noticable trend that large parts of a player base will gravitate towards the most simple but effective equipment in games, with gimick equipment only being elevated to wide use when it's dangerously close to breaking the game, which in turn holds the danger of being overused.

That seems to be a constant problem in games in which simple tools are mixed with funny/weird/unique tools and both are present on the same level. Because a 2 step process (aim and shoot for example) will win over a 4 to 5 step process if they deal the same amount of damage or provide the same effect.

So these concerns about the Bard framing being held back by it's gimick are understandable to me.

Edited January 22, 2017 by Othergrunty

[Zamio]

On 21/01/2017 at 2:46 PM, ShadowDragon000 said:

edit: Now I'm not saying I want it to be bad or hope that it fails, but it is always a possibility and nothing ever gets improved by ignoring problems.

What problem?? The ones that don't even exist or the ones you're pretending will exist?

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

I want to play "epic sax guy" music. Best tune to hear while slicing up grineer