Player to Player AUCTION HOUSE

[k05h]

I hope you are all aware that warframe.market slowly but steadily collects enough money to build a professional trading service. Even in its current semi-professional status it works quite well with "list and forget". 

So there are enough people willing to give money to someone to make trading more convenient. 

[ChuckMaverick]

4 minutes ago, k05h said:

Even in its current semi-professional status it works quite well with "list and forget".

Except it doesn't, because you still need to manually complete the trades.

And the revenue that a third party website receives has absolutely nothing to do with the effect an AH would have on Warframe's in-game economy.

[Samjuaro]

On 1/25/2017 at 1:54 PM, kleerr2 said:

You mean like it already has?! I mean, take a good look, prices of content have already plummeted due to high supply and low demand... If we are talking about prime parts, then the only ones that have not plumeted yet, are those that are vaulted(since you can no longer farm those) and the newly released ones(coz they are new). Pretty much everything other than that you can buy dirt cheap, because if you don't sell it for 'dirt cheap' nobody will buy... Its that simple.

Now, since we are on the topic of ''basic economics'', i would like to ask you a very simple question, which is:

Does it matter if you are selling hundreds of a single prime part(or whatever else) if its price cannot drop under the items common lowest value?

I will give you a basic example... Lets say there are about a few milion Ash Prime Systems being sold in the Marketplace, does it matter that there is such a quantity of said item being sold, if it is being sold at a common plat price? I don't think so... The important thing is not how much of item X is being sold, the important thing is the price of item X being sold.

Now assuming you catch up to what i am trying to explain(in very simple terms), It does not matter if the supply is ten times, or a hundred times more than the demand, all that you, or rather DE, should concern themselves with is the price of the items being sold. Thus it would make very good sense if DE fix the trade system, it is in their best interest, really...

You know... there is a bottom line here... In the current system players can sell an item for whatever price they want, which potentially gives the possibility of prices to plummet(which you obviously don't want to happen, which it is happening), whereas in a market, every, and i mean every aspect of transactions can be monitored and most importantly controlled. A Marketplace is a system that can and will controll, and by all means limit the transactions that occur whithin it... price, quantity, amount sold per day, you name it...

Yes, you can collect large amounts of prime parts, mods, etc etc... Now, that is not a big issue as long as there are new people coming into the game( btw new people coming into the game, im absolutely sure they are going to simply LOVE the new system, cuz it is to easy and simple to use, and you just want to go back to use it again all the time). Sorry bout that little rant there...

So yea, alot of what is being sold is single use only, you buy it and you forget about it, this is true... There are ways to change/ fix that(if you like i can disclose one), but it is not that much of a deal, i think. Its about you wanting to sell an item, so far i am so disgusted with the trade system i don't want to sell stuff, this is how bad it is... I want to sell my stuff, but not whith this sh*t... call it entitlement if you want, but i literally cannot stand to use the current trade system. I'd rather put my 'stuff' for sale with about 0.01% of it selling and go back to actually playing the game, rather than sit for hoursupon end on my hands in the tradechat, possibly without even selling that prime crap... But idk, maybe thats just me...

Except, it is not working! Alot is being sold dirt cheap because the supply is multiple times larger than the demand, and the current system cannot control the lowest sell price of items being sold, thus everything is continuously droping in plat cost until it reaches the bottom of the barrel...

Let me ask you something else, are you personally ok with spending hours, to trade, instead of playing? Do you find it amusing, or would you prefer a market place where trading does not induce a mental coma? Like i said, the marketplace can have a limiting factor to an item's lowest price, so you can easily avoid prices plummiting by lots of supply.

First one. Yes, and in the current system... you can spend hours of farming an item, just so you can go into trade chat and find out that nobody will buy that item unless you sell it for a low amount of plat, and even if you want to sell something for say 50p and you make that known in your WTS post I bet you that your first few(possibly all) offers will be ''45p?'', and then you have to listen to some made up story as to why you should sell your item for a lower price than you wanted...

Second one. Then you should shout 'Praise the Marketplace' at the top of your lungs, unless you decide to continue to stay blind... The choice is yours...

Alright, thats a good point, i personally have always traded within games, so i have come to expect transactions to be arranged within the said game. Then again it is made(the third party trade site) for a reason, wouldn't you agree? If the in-game trading was not so bad, there would be no need of such sites, plus lets not forget something very important, you use those third-party sites for information about the game, not for trading, there is a difference...

I couldn't agree more.

[kleerr2]

2 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

For buyers, the prices will be cheaper, for sellers, their stuff will actually sell.

Look, there are buyers that want to argue about 5p off an item's price and there are buyers that don't care about 5p and just want to skip the formalities and get sh*t done, clean and fast... on the other hand, there are sellers that value the work they put into what they farmed and dont want to get dragged into lowering the price, to the point where they are basically gifting their items to buyers and then there are sellers who would want to sell their items for lower than the marketplace, but those people will no doubt be getting lower and lower offers and eventually they will fall back to the Marketplace. So, as you can see, it will not be pointless, sure not everybody will stick to it, but that is not the goal, the goal is an alternative system that is easy and pleasant for use, for both buyer and seller...

2 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

"as they should"? And you're advocating centrally-set pricing?

Ugh no... how did you even figure that out... I'm not talking about an item having a set price, all i'm saying is that there will be a low(subjectively) number under which you cannot enter a price... That is all...

2 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

I think I see what sort of economic philosophy is behind these proposals now, just look at the real world to see how well command economies do when compared to free markets.

This is not the real world... dude... This is a video-game system intended to control transactions of items based on currency... Dont compare it to the real world, you will fall flat on your butt...

2 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

What's a "proper price" by your definition?

Well, if you are talking about the term... another very similar one would be 'reasonable'.

If you are asking for a certain price for an item, then i'm not the one that will be making that descision. The ones making that descision would be DE, as they are the only ones that CAN and SHOULD face consequences if they dont make the system subjectively fair for the players and themselves(less we forget)...

If i'd have to gess what the 'reasonable price' should be derived from, then there are several things to look at, such as: the value of an item; the effort to get the item; the time it takes to get the item. Or it could be something based on the ammount of plat most players buy and coupling that to how many frame sets someone should be buying with that, or make it safe and make it so a frame set cannot sell under 150p, so basically about 50p lowest price per prime piece. It has to be carefully looked at, obviously... so that DE make their plat off of people buying, but not to the extend that it is all to expensive...

3 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

If your 'proper price' is higher than the current market value, then virtually nothing will sell via the AH as trades from chat will still happen at the lower, true market value.

If your 'proper price' is lower than the current market value, then yes, an AH will lower the price (except for limited availability items, those will go through the roof), but most sales will still happen outside of the AH as sellers offer lower prices than the AH limit to ensure their item actually sells.

This is based on your assumption that nobody(not literally) will use the Marketplace, as buyers will get for cheap, and sellers will sell their stuff...

Now, you are not wrong AND you are not right, either... As in, yes there will be those kind of people, but It is not going to be EVERYONE. Infact i'd wager that most people would actually use the marketplace, as it is the faster, easyer and no formalities one. I will say it again, the Marketplace will be an alternative.

And i'd like to point out something. Just because you are right(partially) about something, does not necessarily mean that I am wrong...

3 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

That you even think there is a 'proper price' different to the one a free market sets just demonstrates that you don't understand how economies work.

Listen up, chenge 'proper price' with 'reasonable price' (( I can proxy as they both have alot in common) do i even need to explain this)), and now re-read your statement... actually wait, i'll do that for you!

''That you even think there is a 'reasonable price' different to the one a free market sets just demonstrates that you don't understand how economies work.''

So basically what that means is that whatever price the buyer suggests goes, even 0p...

You are advocating that there should be no 'reasonable' price, because this market is ''free"?! Well I guess it really is ''free'', as you basically have to sell for whatever price the buyer demands, since otherwise he would not buy! (I'm envisioning the current system at this time, by the way...)

There is no 'reasonable price' so whatever the buyer says goes?! The seller does not have a say, as he is not entitled to his opinion of the lowest reasonable price his item should sell?!

I mean, yeah... fck the proper/reasonable item's price! Like... who the fck even uses that sh*t?!

And in that same sentence you have the nerve to utter that I ''don't understand how economics work''?!

How dare you??!!

[-N7-Leonhart]

On 1/25/2017 at 6:46 AM, DocVev said:

then, In my opinion: remove the trading chat... its a cesspool of unreadable yelling.  obviously there is a real need to trade.  but the current systems SUCK AT TRADING, and certainly suck for a new player.. holy crap do you remember the first time you touched that channel, could you even process a single sentence... and do you remember the first time you tried to sell something, anxiety inducing.  I think it needs to be reviewed.

You are making a mistake somewhere. The trade chat is intentionally like this.

I have seen a few examples of fully fledged Auction Houses in other RPGs. In EVERY SINGLE ONE of them, the items would see an incredible decrease in price over time. And it's obvious why. The only option you have for selling stuff in something like that is to ask for a lower price than the lowest one. And if everyone would do that, there un-common items would cost approximately 0.

The Devs surely had something like this in mind, so they kept a method that would enable you to buy or sell anything for any price (in theory, anyway). It's much more beneficial for the reduction of the deflation.

Edited January 26, 2017 by -BM-Leonhart

[ChuckMaverick]

36 minutes ago, kleerr2 said:

Listen up, chenge 'proper price' with 'reasonable price' (( I can proxy as they both have alot in common) do i even need to explain this)), and now re-read your statement... actually wait, i'll do that for you!

''That you even think there is a 'reasonable price' different to the one a free market sets just demonstrates that you don't understand how economies work.''

So basically what that means is that whatever price the buyer suggests goes, even 0p...

You are advocating that there should be no 'reasonable' price, because this market is ''free"?! Well I guess it really is ''free'', as you basically have to sell for whatever price the buyer demands, since otherwise he would not buy! (I'm envisioning the current system at this time, by the way...)

There is no 'reasonable price' so whatever the buyer says goes?! The seller does not have a say, as he is not entitled to his opinion of the lowest reasonable price his item should sell?!

I mean, yeah... fck the proper/reasonable item's price! Like... who the fck even uses that sh*t?!

And in that same sentence you have the nerve to utter that I ''don't understand how economics work''?!

How dare you??!!

If you truly think that a free market means that sellers have to sell at whatever price the buyer demands, then I really don't know what to say.

That is so wrong that I just don't know where to start.

I admit that when reading proposals for an auction house I automatically assume the proposer wants to see lower prices, or at least more convenient trading and they just don't realise that will lead to lower prices. But you actually propose an auction house because you want higher prices?

An auction house would deliver the polar opposite of what you are after, and fixing prices just doesn't work unless you control the means of production (which DE doesn't). Prices would plummet, and artificial minimums 'enforced' by an auction house system would just be side-stepped and trading would go on elsewhere.

I'm not stating that you don't understand economics to insult you, particularly now that I think I understand your objective of higher (or in your eyes, more reasonable) prices, but because the results will not be what you think they would be, and you really should learn some more about economics before proposing something that will deliver the exact opposite of what you're after.

[schilds]

@kleerr2

We seem to be getting into some kind of off-topic meta-argument, so to stay on topic:

 

This argument is essentially between two camps of people arguing for different gameplay that are incompatible with each other. Trading by its nature cannot be kept isolated from the rest of the game (like archwing and pvp can be isolated). Changes in the trading system changes the weights of different options for progressing through the game. A more sophisticated trading system encourages, as a means of progress, more engagement in trading and less in other gameplay. A more sophisticated trading system will also require re-balancing all the drop rates to compensate for a much higher volume of trades. People who don't want to engage in trading gameplay will be unable to avoid its effects as they ripple through the rest of the game.

As others have pointed out, it is also highly competitive. Typically (from my experience in other games) a small minority do well out of trading, and the vast majority do poorly. At the moment that's ok, because trading is not a big component of the game. If it is facilitated, and hence made more significant, then that is like pushing everyone into pvp. The majority of people who are used to a co-op pve game do poorly at pvp, and do not enjoy being pushed into it. Given how people in this game have responded to (perceived to be) forced pvp, I think it's reasonable to assume they will absolutely hate being pushed into a trading game with a system that benefits, relatively more, those who trade heavily.

The current friction in trading serves the purpose of reducing the effectiveness of trading gameplay relative to other gameplay. Now that I think about it, this is much like the arguments about aoe-meta gameplay. There are arguments for higher friction, less effective aoe, to shift the focus of the game towards in-mission in-combat gameplay, from whatever meta-games (e.g. speed running, collecting loot, min-maxing, etc) there are to play across missions.

[xxfiurionxx]

Dont think i would cherish an automated auction house in warframe that much too since i allrdy saw many games plagued by it.

Not only would it problaly be an easy incentive to bots since warframe is f2p but also open a feature that can be "abused" like last sec biddings for easy or very cheap stuff, being able to control markets of chosen items by flipping prices, greatly decrease the value of everything due to more people selling stuff overall and with time the game could start to run dry on sells or trades besides maybe riven mods though problaly way cheaper.

As for trade chat issue, if its so quick that one cant follow, odds are other people are not superman as well and actually scroll chat a knot with mouse and then start scrolling at their own speed for betther understanding.

Other then that, even trade chat requires some mini "skills" like trying to make your message stand out a little, trying to take your message when trade chat seem to be slowing down a little if it happens, etc

Fairer prices and deals can go a long way too in the end so take that into account.

As for maroo's bazar, i can agree that it is not my favourite spot or method to make a trade too since overall we have our dojos, trade chat, etc for it but i do see that spot as a spot more dedicated to those who lack dojos but wished to trade something.

Just happened that with time and marroo's inclusion of ayatan hunts people started to use it more.

[P0Pz]

A tradeplatform ingame is ofc needed.

There is NO point agains it but those who see theire profit sinking bc everyone could see what a item is worth ingame. They try to bring out points to scare others while you/i can go into it and prove theire points are wrong and it works perfect in other games like Rappelz.

Do not come up with any bot points

- Proven. Rappelz AH is save as F.

Do not come up with "persons focused buy all 2/3 same items and then selling them with skyrock prices.

- Proven. Rappelz AH defending bots searching for indicators on players doing so and send them with a tempo ban into abysee solves the problem perfect.

That is the fact. Auctionhouse or better a tradingplatform WITHOUT a bit system is perfect for WF. 

And stop scaring others with wrong infos "price will fall down 1pl" or "price will skyrock".. NO

it will balance at the midle somewhere. Depending on the effort and rarity it needs to get. Fact.

All in for a Tradeplatform. 

 

Edit: The best place to inser a tradingplatform would be the Dojo trading panel. To limit the "Lag" at HUBs.

- social point missing

WRONG. You still see WHO is selling. You still can pm the seller. You still can use trading chats and all other trading ways. 

Your 2/3 second showing up trading text is ZERO social. 

It starts getting social when 1 person is trying to contact anotherone if he wants to.

Look. Your trading text shows A: playername B: What do you want (buy/sell/trade) 

A tradingplatform is ZERO different to it. A playername B: what do you want to buy/sell/trade)

...😥

It is already social if 1 person do not like to talk but still want to buy something, both seller and buyer, do a silient social contact over the trade it selfe. They are "touching" another persons item~currency witch is already a social aspect. You do not need to talk/writte to be social within a group or 2 persons. THE ACT is already social.

God...

 

Edited January 27, 2017 by P0Pz

[kleerr2]

17 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

If you truly think that a free market means that sellers have to sell at whatever price the buyer demands, then I really don't know what to say.

That is so wrong that I just don't know where to start.

It is not about what I ''truly belive'', it is about what YOU make it out to be! Re-read your BS statement sir! Coz that is exactly what you suggested!

It does not matter what market it is, transactions need to have a fair and reasonable price, for both buyer AND seller! And YOU sir make it out to be NOT TRUE... And you say i don't understand economics? Well, you sir don't understand common sense!

''I just don't know where to start.''

No, you just dont know how to stop flailing about, helplessly... take a seat sir, and face up to your own arguments!

17 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

I admit that when reading proposals for an auction house I automatically assume the proposer wants to see lower prices, or at least more convenient trading and they just don't realise that will lead to lower prices. But you actually propose an auction house because you want higher prices?

I want reasonable prices, and thus far only buyers get reasonable prices, because they can take advantege of, if not scam/ rip off the sellers, because of the fact, that sellers have no idea for what price they should sell their items, which leads to the buyers bargaining for lesser and lesser prices from the sellers, till prices of items hit the bottom of the barrel... how many times must i explain this?!

17 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

An auction house would deliver the polar opposite of what you are after, and fixing prices just doesn't work unless you control the means of production (which DE doesn't). Prices would plummet, and artificial minimums 'enforced' by an auction house system would just be side-stepped and trading would go on elsewhere.

Are you counting how many times i have said ''MARKETPLACE'' in the thread already?! How about a little, atleast a tiny bit of common sense for a while, when you try to debunk my arguments, is that asking too much?

It is bad enough that you only write a few lines of text as a response to my arguments...

''and fixing prices just doesn't work unless you control the means of production (which DE doesn't)''

Honestly i am getting tired of this shenanigans, i really am... What fckin fixed prices?! omfg... Nobody is talking about a fixed price for anything( altho i have a good idea how that can also work out)... nobody, alright?!

''Prices would plummet''

And here we go again... Do not, try to debunk an argument, if you are going to base my fckin argument on your biased opinion... You try to argument the marketplace whilst envisioning the current trade system, and not taking into account the marketplace's controll feature... Fckin stop it already...

Your prejudice bores me!

''and artificial minimums 'enforced' by an auction house system would just be side-stepped and trading would go on elsewhere.''

Oh, so now it is ''artificial minimums'' is it? No, it is not an auction house, and no, people(or atleast most of them) will not go elsewhere, BECAUSE the Marketplace is the easier, more enjoyable, no formalities ALTERNATIVE! And if DE were to set a bare minimum, i am sure alot of people will respect that descision, as long as that bare minimum is not astronomical...

17 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

I'm not stating that you don't understand economics to insult you

I dont care about your pety insults... dude... except for when you make a fool of yourself with your satement and then claim that it is I who dosen't know what i am talking about, nevertheless... What i do care about, is that you don't simply skim trough most of my arguments, cherry-pick a few and try to argument them based on your biased opinion whilst mixing it with the current system, and avoiding alot of what goes along into my argument, without consideration!

Honestly i feel as though i have to bold+underline EVERYTHING, just so that you don't skim trough the important parts of my arguments, if not most arguments... For fck's sake...

17 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

particularly now that I think I understand your objective of higher (or in your eyes, more reasonable) prices, but because the results will not be what you think they would be, and you really should learn some more about economics before proposing something that will deliver the exact opposite of what you're after.

Ahh, you had it for a moment and you lost it... again... I am so dissapointed right now...

I have a very clear idea of what the results will be, some people will use the marketplace, some will use the tradechat, but the sellers that use the trade chat will soon discover that the marketplace is the better option overall, it is a safe bet.

14 hours ago, schilds said:

This argument is essentially between two camps of people arguing for different gameplay that are incompatible with each other.

Yes, well... unfortunatelly in debates, there will always be ''it is us versus them'', obviously... we both want the better options, or alternatives, but we have different views, so we argue... What is the point of bringing this up, are you trying to act reasonable, or something? smh...

14 hours ago, schilds said:

Trading by its nature cannot be kept isolated from the rest of the game (like archwing and pvp can be isolated). Changes in the trading system changes the weights of different options for progressing through the game.

We have already discussed this, sir. Well, atleast i tried to, but you looked the other way and are now, again, bringing this pointless argument up. It is a failed argument sir, realise it already, as i repeat myself one more time...

Trading influences gamplay right now, and it will continue to influence it after and if a mMarkeplace is introduced, AND nothing about the ammount of influence will change. a New player can easily buy a top tier weapon/ frame to use now, and nothing about that will change with a Marketplace... give it a rest already...

14 hours ago, schilds said:

A more sophisticated trading system encourages, as a means of progress, more engagement in trading and less in other gameplay.

Please use developed, it sounds more... reasonable...

And we have already discussed this, but not really, as again, you decided to look the other way, and left my argument to your statement out to dry... as it fits the agenda...

Are you fond of this shenanigans?!

Let me repeat myself: The CURRENT system revolves around spending lots of time into trading, the Marketplace will not... Plain and simple... You lits your items, go back to da killin...

14 hours ago, schilds said:

A more sophisticated trading system will also require re-balancing all the drop rates to compensate for a much higher volume of trades.

No, it will only require a bottom price under which you cannot sell your item... it is just that DE will need to base this bottom price so that it is fair for them and the comunity... that is literally, it...

14 hours ago, schilds said:

People who don't want to engage in trading gameplay will be unable to avoid its effects as they ripple through the rest of the game.

You mean like the way it already is with the current system? huehuehue... I mean, cmon dude, make a meaningful argument already! Just, do it! Please?

15 hours ago, schilds said:

As others have pointed out, it is also highly competitive. Typically (from my experience in other games) a small minority do well out of trading, and the vast majority do poorly.

Who are these, others?

Because it is a small minority of no-lifers that trade all fckin day in games, and then there are other people that trade just 'enough' for their needs...

Where is the argument i cannot see it, where is it?

15 hours ago, schilds said:

At the moment that's ok, because trading is not a big component of the game.

EXCEPT, IT IS!

Go on debate THIS! Do it...

15 hours ago, schilds said:

If it is facilitated, and hence made more significant, then that is like pushing everyone into pvp. The majority of people who are used to a co-op pve game do poorly at pvp, and do not enjoy being pushed into it. Given how people in this game have responded to (perceived to be) forced pvp, I think it's reasonable to assume they will absolutely hate being pushed into a trading game with a system that benefits, relatively more, those who trade heavily.

Here is an idea... Let us go into the trade chat in the game right now! Look over the clusterfck walls of text flashing trough the chat... And then you can go on and explain to whoever you want, that trading, is not a major part of the game.. Lets...

The Marketplace WILL lessen the burden, as you won't have to spend time and nerves, or god forbit your LIFE, to trade...

15 hours ago, schilds said:

The current friction in trading serves the purpose of reducing the effectiveness of trading gameplay relative to other gameplay.

Except YOUR ''current friction'' DOES NOT WORK! Prices of items are steadily fluctuating downwards of the platinum prices, the prices of items are plummeting, already, and buyers and sellers are ripping each other off at the daily basis... Open your god dam eyes!

15 hours ago, schilds said:

We seem to be getting into some kind of off-topic meta-argument, so to stay on topic:

Now that I think about it, this is much like the arguments about aoe-meta gameplay. There are arguments for higher friction, less effective aoe, to shift the focus of the game towards in-mission in-combat gameplay, from whatever meta-games (e.g. speed running, collecting loot, min-maxing, etc) there are to play across missions.

''We railed off into off-topic meta discussions'', ''so let me just end my post with more of the same meta discussions''... sure, sure...

7 hours ago, xxfiurionxx said:

As for trade chat issue, if its so quick that one cant follow, odds are other people are not superman as well and actually scroll chat a knot with mouse and then start scrolling at their own speed for betther understanding.

The problem with that however, is that, by the time you scroll to that offer, someone has already beat you to the deal with the buyer... so, yea...

[P0Pz]

On Wednesday, January 25, 2017 at 9:20 AM, Devinee said:

 

https://warframe.market/ would say "Mission Failed" or will they sue the people hosting the site now 

Exactly 😉

[P0Pz]

51 minutes ago, kleerr2 said:

Snipe

Almost 100% out of my thoughts. Agree!

Edit:

Do not forget how much pps actualy you reach with TC and how many you could reach with a tradingplatform. The differents is like bombards scaling up armor.

Tradingplatform all in for it!

Edited January 27, 2017 by P0Pz

[Shining_Darkness]

I kept trying to explain them that this trade system ruins players experience but got attacked by hordes of DE fanboys who defended endless scrolling text in tiny trade window in my thread too. They simply did not want Warframe to evolve in a big, super-popular game by utilizing ideas from other successful titles xD

[P0Pz]

35 minutes ago, Shining_Darkness said:

I kept trying to explain them that this trade system ruins players experience but got attacked by hordes of DE fanboys who defended endless scrolling text in tiny trade window in my thread too. They simply did not want Warframe to evolve in a big, super-popular game by utilizing ideas from other successful titles xD

 

The most true point is: "THEY ARE SCARED"

Scared without a real reason.

They talk about "social" aspects without knowing "what is a social aspect"...

Social

"Living organisms including humans are social when they live collectively in interacting populations, whether they are aware of it or not, and whether the interaction is voluntary or involuntary.

 

They just try to find points to stealth "they are scared". And the loudest QQ are those who do theire ingame profit with buying cheap/selling high 😉

I can take out any point they might come up with. No matter what.

A InGame Trading-platform is GREAT for WF !! And it is about time DE !!

Edited January 27, 2017 by P0Pz

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

I also add my "NO" to this post. Thank you.

[xxfiurionxx]

0% player x player trading interaction, overall market of items even cheaper and overcrowded at everyones expense problaly, 0% worries about prices of items your trying to aquire or sell and most important of all: NO MORE TRADE CHAT SCROLLING!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Gets back to reality"

A couple of words doesnt kill anyone and a trade many times dont even use more then 9 lines if you count single hellos and ty,.. 

Can see what some starter people may face with thinking that it would indeed make the overall life of everyone easier but dont get tricked by it since with time your suposed "edge" over those that you look as "sucessfull" in the current trading system will eventually turn on you aswell after you collect most of the stuff the game has to offer since part of the end game of warframe is that and overtime start collecting all the little cosmetics for you to proudly fashion frame it ;)

At the end of the day suposed "plat richer" people will problaly still be more plat richer then those at that moment lol

If people complain about the no 0% worries point its cause they problaly faced that in the past with some random trader but now they are more aware on what they have gone wrong and wont repeat the same mistake.

As for prices that i dont think that will ever be 100% set in stone like riven mods or recently for me lotus kubrow prints, No auction house will ever save you from using your common sence or brain to know when to refuse an offer or to go ahead and try to guive what you think to be a fairer price. If you think the deal is fine sometimes you just have to cycle traders till you find a reasonable one while respectfully denying the others. If the deal is bad or unrealistic dont wonder if the greedy bastards wont sell you for example a valkyr prime chasis for 30p though :\

Other then that, ocasional "white knights" like me are not entirely defending trade scrolling but how you actually trade in warframe. If it were asking for some trade chat tweaks or something i think the discussion could be different or more openly since even people that enjoy the current trade system could maybe wish for a little tweak here or there.

[ChuckMaverick]

I'll throw in a couple of videos as they directly address many of the issues we're discussing here.

These are actual lectures, not 'edutainment', and they're not short, but I think they're well worth watching if you want more insight into how demand and supply interact and their effect on prices. The second video also talks about the effect of price controls on a market.

It's been a while since I first learned basic economic principles, and I found the refresher very useful and pertinent.

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

 

[schilds]

@kleerr2

Mate, that's what you call a summary of my opinion on the matter. You don't need to respond to everything. We clearly disagree and are satisfied by our propositions while finding the other's unconvincing. *shrug*.

Peace.

 

Edit: I edited this around the same time the post following it was created (in case there's any confusion)

Edited January 27, 2017 by schilds

[kleerr2]

On 26.01.2017 г. at 7:53 PM, Samjuaro said:

I couldn't agree more.

 

6 hours ago, P0Pz said:

Almost 100% out of my thoughts. Agree!

Glad to thear that, guys. It is nice to know that atleast someone sheres my opinion of the current trade systerm and the chaos/injustice it inhibits. :D

3 hours ago, xxfiurionxx said:

No auction house will ever save you from using your common sence or brain to know when to refuse an offer or to go ahead and try to guive what you think to be a fairer price.

I am only going to argument this part in short passing as i do not have much time atm.

When you are a seller, and you try to sell an item for an actually lower price than the lowest of said item, at that moment, and the buyers want you to drop off the price further, otherwise they will not buy, and you waste alot of time with this type of buyers, and realise that there is no other way to sell your item, you will soon start to sing a very different song... sir.

2 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

I'll throw in a couple of videos as they directly address many of the issues we're discussing here.

These are actual lectures, not 'edutainment', and they're not short, but I think they're well worth watching if you want more insight into how demand and supply interact and their effect on prices. The second video also talks about the effect of price controls on a market.

It's been a while since I first learned basic economic principles, and I found the refresher very useful and pertinent.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

I would assume you watched these videos? Is that why you cannot make a proper counter-argument, sir?!

I don't mean to be rude, but if you have watched them and you still cannot refute my arguments then... ehh... this kind of seems like a scapegoat, of an argument, or rather the lack thereof...

Tell you what, when i have more time i will watch them, with an open mind(unlike you sir), and we will see, altho if these videos are based around real life marketing economics, then it will be a complete waste of my time, as like i have already said... You cannot compare a real life Market, with a video-game Marketplace system...

1 hour ago, schilds said:

@kleerr2

Mate, that's what you call a summary of my opinion on the matter. You don't need to respond to everything. We clearly disagree and think our own points our wonderful and the other's not very good. *shrug*.

Peace.

Look, if i come off as agressive, that is not my goal here... I will adress this further when i have the time, but for now i will just say this very simple thing... and bare in mind that this is still just my own opinion...

I know what the current system looks like, as i have been there, done it(used it), met other people that use it... I derive my point of view based on my experience, and my view of the system as of now is, basically: chaos, disarray, scamming, rip-offs, cluelesness... I can probably list more, these are just at the top of my head, but even for the 'scamm' part, regardless of everything else, just the 'scamm' part... should be all the incentive you need, to reject the current system and ask for an alternative...

[ChuckMaverick]

1 minute ago, kleerr2 said:

I would assume you watched these videos? Is that why you cannot make a proper counter-argument, sir?!

I don't mean to be rude, but if you have watched them and you still cannot refute my arguments then... ehh... this kind of seems like a scapegoat, of an argument, or rather the lack thereof...

Tell you what, when i have more time i will watch them, with an open mind(unlike you sir), and we will see, altho if these videos are based around real life marketing economics, then it will be a complete waste of my time, as like i have already said... You cannot compare a real life Market, with a video-game Marketplace system...

Yes, I have watched them, as I said in my post that you quoted.

I haven't commented further yet as it's only fair to give others the chance to watch them as well before making any statements drawing on the content of the videos.

Exactly the same supply/demand pressures apply to market prices in real life and game economies, although the factors that establish the demand and supply curves are different, and that needs to be taken into account when drawing any conclusions.

The videos are lectures given by an Economics professor at Berkeley, I encourage you to watch them, I certainly found them very informative and will probably now watch the whole series.

[Carnage2K4]

Yeah, I'm confused by the devs saying they don't want a market because they want ppl to engage with the game and be online, but making us sit in a small space for hours on end just to maybe sell something is a really poor alternative.

At absolute minimum we should be able to set up our 'shop' with the amount we want to sell the items for, and anyone can interact and buy said items even if we're AFK.

The current system of, interact, some dude puts in a bunch of crap you don't want, won't talk to you then keeps trying to interact after you get sick of him and leave the interaction... if just downright sucking fhit.

[Lawmonark]

We already have one, and it works fine.

http://warframe.market/

 

I feel the real reason we dont have an Auction House in game is....

-Real world trading, people could put an item up there that is worth nothing, like a common mod. But have the listing price really high, like 1000s of plat. This would allow plat sellers to sell plat to them.

-Would require "new" data-base and server just to host the Auction house Warframe is mainly P2P. 

 

There is one style of markets that i really enjoyed. That was with a game called "Mabinogi". You set up a "blaket" stall and sell your items there. This could be added to warframe. Lets say instead of us standing in the relay. We hire an operative from the relay to stand in our place. Allow them to hold 5-10 items. And charge us by the hour or a flat rate. 

[xxfiurionxx]

29 minutes ago, kleerr2 said:

When you are a seller, and you try to sell an item for an actually lower price than the lowest of said item, at that moment, and the buyers want you to drop off the price further, otherwise they will not buy, and you waste alot of time with this type of buyers, and realise that there is no other way to sell your item, you will soon start to sing a very different song... sir.

Nope :\ if your price is allrdy decent by being on the lower end and is doesnt seem to be selling that much you can try selling it later on, on a peak hour of the day or like i did sometimes before were i would gather some of my harder to sell stuff and try to sell it on weekends when more people usually in the game. 

Haggling is part of  the game and it is up to you how you use it or how you let them use it... Backing down a trade that doesnt feel good to you is not a "defeat". You both had terms before that. The plat is theirs... but the item is still yours lol Let them find someone more desperate (what i used to say to myself in those moments lol) 

 They have a suposedly betther offer? Guive them a gz and let them sell it lol

 They lack 3 or 4 plat of your offer with a "family of ten frames" to feed speech? If theyre actually sincere then they wont mind trowing one prime junk piece to compensate.

Dont like it sometimes when people start to try and haggle their way up to your prices? Leave their chat window open for a min and dont make a single reply to them after it. if nothing happens close it, you didnt miss anything lol

Among the trade chat wolfs there are indeed inocent here or there but up to you and your judgement to decide when to extend your arm or not.

Other then that last reply im leaving in thread since its allrdy the third i leave lol

 

[Zyion]

On 1/24/2017 at 10:41 PM, schilds said:

Essentially what they said was that they don't consider trading core gameplay, or want to add systems that will make it, or encourage it to be, core gameplay.

And sitting around doing nothing your Dojo/Liset/Relay while posting every few minutes in the trade chat and waiting for someone to respond is? I've had people pay me a finders fee for having to deal with the trade chat because they'd much rather play the game than sit around doing nothing. It can sometimes take hours to find the item you're looking for. Having an auction house would mean more time spent playing the game and not sitting around doing nothing.

[schilds]

@Zyion I've already been through this. To repeat:

Yes, it would save me a bit of time, so on shallow, superficial inspection seems to provide more time for other activities. That's only if you look at an individual in isolation, without considering what effect a more sophisticated trading system has over the whole game. Considering everything - and you don't need to work too hard, just go look at other games with these systems - you will find it not only shifts the entire game towards trading gameplay that I don't like, but also adversely affects other gameplay that I do like.

My propositions are not predictions, they are not attempts to prove my claim (about where it all ends up) through carefully constructed logic and reasoning, they are merely attempts to explain what I have already observed to be true (experimentally, if you like) from my experience in other games, in the obviously subjective context of the gameplay I enjoy. Once upon a time I was on your side of the argument, wanting a little more convenience. Experience now has me sitting on the other side, where I find all the beautiful logic and theorycrafting, about how wonderful trade systems will be for the game, totally unconvincing.

Going from 10 hours total time spent trading to 1 hour total time spent trading is not a huge saving, and I would rather suffer that extra inconvenience than have the game become something I don't want to play. The fact is that the people arguing for a trading system are either unaware of the consequences, or more likely, they are not people who would be saving a mere 9 hours (going from 10 to 1 hours) but people who would be going from 500 to 50 and saving 450 hours. The latter are people who enjoy trading gameplay, hence why I keep saying this argument is really just a contest between people wanting different gameplay. Nobody is going to win it.

Edited January 28, 2017 by schilds