Limbo Rework Discussion and Feedback

[2Peter3Nine]

Just now, (PS4)AlastorLines said:

If you have the Zenistar, just use it. Deploy the disc inside the Cataclysm, so any enemy entering it will be killed by the damage field, which lasts 45 seconds. I am unfortunately still a bit away from it, but this is pretty much the solution to the problem you just presented.

That weird flame disk axe thing?

Every time i've used it it's seemed rather weak.

What's your build with it?

[Phaxtolgia]

Based on the conversation above,

Oh no...

That better not be the case... >:L

[2Peter3Nine]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)salovel1991 said:

Especially considering each projectile counts as 3. So 1 Mirage could effectively be as bad as 3 teammates. 

My first reaction to that was LOLOMG

i hope they just remove the projectile stopping aspect, we don't need it.

[2Peter3Nine]

1 minute ago, Phaxilion said:

Based on the conversation above,

Oh no...

That better not be the case... >:L

I hope not either.

[Nokah]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)sixsecondsleft said:

I don't think Limbo needs the major rework, obviously.  I'm sure DE wants to make him more appealing to more players, but he is fun as his current niche self.  Keep him unique!

He's literally getting the most unique power in the game to top off his already unique kit and power.

I get that people want him to stay in his niche, but I don't think you're giving his Stasis enough credit. It's literally stopping time for a long period. It looks like it'll be flat out amazing and let him do his thing and take out groups of small weak enemies just as easily as he normally would take out a singular powerful enemy. It doesn't matter if he pulls everyone around a big bad enemy in if they can't act, right?

Stasis is just reinforcing his niche and making him a bit more flexible. He's still going to hold his niche - and making it so he can freely enter and exit the void using another method may be a bit hard to get used to, but Stasis is an incredible ability and it'll only make him more fun to play in the long run.

Limbo's big thing was that he controlled space. Now he controls space and time. It's a natural extension - and it still is one of the least expected and most enjoyable changes I've seen.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Nokah

[2Peter3Nine]

1 minute ago, Nokah said:

He's literally getting the most unique power in the game to top off his already unique kit and power.

I get that people want him to stay in his niche, but I don't think you're giving his Stasis enough credit. It's literally stopping time for a long period. It looks like it'll be flat out amazing and let him do his thing and take out groups of small weak enemies just as easily as he normally would take out a singular powerful enemy. It doesn't matter if he pulls everyone around a big bad enemy in if they can't act, right?

Stasis is just reinforcing his niche and making him a bit more flexible. He's still going to hold his niche - and making it so he can freely enter and exit the void using another method may be a bit hard to get used to, but Stasis is an incredible ability and it'll only make him more fun to play in the long run.

Limbo's big thing was that he controlled space. Now he controls space and time. It's a natural extension - and it still is one of the least expected and most enjoyable changes I've seen.

And then mirage shows up with her simulor and you can use any of your powers for how ever long she's around.

[(PSN)salovel1991]

8 minutes ago, Phaxilion said:

Based on the conversation above,

Oh no...

That better not be the case... >:L

It's DE.. I don't expect much from them. I mean the ability looks to be used for short burst like defending objectives. Rebecca chose a horrible place to show case. But likely it was a survival build. 

[Praxxor]

15 minutes ago, dwarner672 said:

Limbo's ability to individually choose who does and does not enter his domain has been stripped. Currently, Limbo is slated to have his 1st ability, Banish, be an AoE. This, in effect, strips away part of the thematic cohesion Limbo's new kit is trying to uphold. He's masterful enough to stop time in its tracks, but not masterful enough to cherry-pick specific targets for in-Void elimination? That makes no sense!

This is really easy to fix, Tap 1 for AOE, Hold 1 for old Banish (Tap/hold is switchable in settings already)

[D33STRUCTIV3]

Just now, Praxxor said:

This is really easy to fix, Tap 1 for AOE, Hold 1 for old Banish (Tap/hold is switchable in settings already)

Yes-- I go on to suggest that very idea.  Somewhere in that jumbled mess of contentions... Ideally, I'd love for it to be tap = single-target, hold = AoE, hold longer = bigger AoE for even more energy.

[(PSN)AlastorLines]

23 minutes ago, General_Durandal said:

That weird flame disk axe thing?

Every time i've used it it's seemed rather weak.

What's your build with it?

For this (given that you want to snipe...if you want to create a death bubble look into the Mutalist Quanta and its combo with the Zenistar):

Primed Pressure Point, Primed Reach, Primed Fury, Spoiled Strike as the basics

And then mod for either Gas (scales of the base value of the weapon and not the stats of the disc as far as I remember) or Blast with emphasis on Status Chance. Gas will kill enemies by the procs, while Blast will stun them. As the disc is pure elemental damage the probability for procs is extremely high and the base 25% Status Chance is more than enough.

Edited February 18, 2017 by (PS4)AlastorLines

[(PSN)sixsecondsleft]

27 minutes ago, General_Durandal said:

If the banish explosion damages things in the rift, than YES PLEASE!

The last thing limbo needs is uncontrollable rift pockets popping up all over the place.

You are right, I do not want new void pockets popping up either.  I imagine the dead enemies body vacating that void space would cause it to implode, resulting in a small explosion.  If that makes sense.  No void pockets.

 

30 minutes ago, General_Durandal said:

An augment for agro is soarly lacking in this game, and limbo would be by far the best decoy around.

Agreed.  I forgot a Rift Walk change I was thinking of!  Coming out of Rift Walk should result in a small AoE blind/stun.

32 minutes ago, General_Durandal said:

Hmm... Not a fan of moving targets, so having the cataclysm work like a vortex, well, i'm not a fan of that part.

Now, if it worked like a magnetic anomaly, slowing drawing close by enemies into it's center instead of quickly and forcibly,

that that would be one hek of an upgrade.

I definitely imagined it much slower, like you said.  Vortex was a bad example.  I picture it as a "black hole" initially, and it might grow as big as the current Cataclysm before it implodes.

[(PSN)sixsecondsleft]

27 minutes ago, Nokah said:

He's literally getting the most unique power in the game to top off his already unique kit and power.

I get that people want him to stay in his niche, but I don't think you're giving his Stasis enough credit. It's literally stopping time for a long period. It looks like it'll be flat out amazing and let him do his thing and take out groups of small weak enemies just as easily as he normally would take out a singular powerful enemy. It doesn't matter if he pulls everyone around a big bad enemy in if they can't act, right?

Stasis is just reinforcing his niche and making him a bit more flexible. He's still going to hold his niche - and making it so he can freely enter and exit the void using another method may be a bit hard to get used to, but Stasis is an incredible ability and it'll only make him more fun to play in the long run.

Limbo's big thing was that he controlled space. Now he controls space and time. It's a natural extension - and it still is one of the least expected and most enjoyable changes I've seen.

I do like the look of Stasis, but it doesn't seem that playable somehow.  Other than looking cool, it doesn't look that fun to me.  It feels like this would make him even more of a "solo" frame than before.

[Leogun55]

KEK That bloodborne char

[SilvaDreams]

17 hours ago, ShaneKahnnigan17 said:

You can't hide from the truth.

But it's not. Limbo is a good frame in the hands of a good player.

Mirage Spamulor players... Ya he's mastery fodder because he's too hard.

[(PSN)Zero-0-P]

Limbo is my most used frame as I always state, does that make me an expert no but it does make me one of a number of dedicated Limbo players out there. So let's get started. Let me first start by saying with all the love/hate that Limbo gets it can't be easy aside from leaving him be and letting people just figure it out as those Limbo players we know who we are do and did. The rework though broken was a inspiring take though. They came up with these ideas and now if we act responsibly we can help them make those ideas great if they are willing to listen.

The new passive: I like the idea I do but the community of Limbo players are right to a extent, now I don't role much that's something that people who play other frames do, I Rift Walk hahaha those who play Limbo like that know what I mean and that is also no negative on everyone else please don't take my humor offensively. So I do get why they put it like that. I also agree that it is challenging especially for those who use role a lot its a huge learn curve. I don't like the dash effect, I know I'm sorry however I would keep it and make it a step not a dash, why because control. Look at the stream Rebecca almost ran out of time then when she got there almost lost because she had to dash and dashed passed her target. With a sophisticated forward step like entering a room it would give more control in my opinion that is to the move. So instead of dashing all over the place he merely steps forward and if backpedaling steps backwards in and out of the rift. One question is it possible to make it HOLD sensitive, where those who want to role can by either taping or holding the role button. That is all I have for the be passive for now, I'll post more if I think of a change or tweak.

Banish: Now I can't lie I asked for the splash but not in that capacity, I said that the target would remain in rift while those hit with the AOE would be hit as well but for only a couple of seconds. Long enough to kill them all if he could but if he couldn't it only lasted on them for 2-3 seconds so no big deal. The ability would work the same on allies as well so if they were killing it wouldn't interrupt that and if they were the intended target they get a few prone treats to destroy. Now I think the issue is that there are enemies that have immunities to knockdown. The simple fix would be make banish absolute, make nothing immune to his knockdown effect. I mean what is a immunity when you are now in my world right. Second his rift should act like a nullifier bubble removing enemy abilities, that has yet to be seen in warframe and it supports his control of the rift. That is all for now on Banish I'll post more as I tweak the idea.

Time Stop: Love It, Love It, Love It, however it a was ruined by the proposed nerf that comes with it. It doesn't work because you just made him a super soloist. I don't want my friends shooting all Willy nilly in my Cataclysm and ultimately killing me in the end because my powers don't work. Not one frame has a nerf of that magnitude. I agree with another post that says let it be like Bastille. Even better give him if it is a Bastille rip off (no offense as I do love it) then give Limbo a similar augment that throws out any other enemies that try to enter. However that crippling nerf will do more harm than good. Now I melee so for me it's great, however if I have a large Cataclysm and my friends or worst randoms are playing if they all jump in and start shooting because it is soooooo cool they just killed my abilities and for I don't know how long. So I get that you don't want to make him OP but we need to find another answer. That is it for now on Time Stop, I'll add any new thoughts or tweaks later if I think of something.

Rift surge: Now first do I keep its original buffing effect because Nova's molecular prime is a unchanged 2× multiplier which is a huge nerf to Limbo as this is what makes him late game (in my opinion that is) with rift torrent as the sidekick. Max strength thats a 6× multiplier plus a additional 20% for every enemy in rift. A large Cataclysm Limbo in Naramon (because that's what I like) and 10-20 enemies (Naramon effect not included) you are already looking at a 8-10× multiplier. So unless that part remains I fail to see how the pockets of Cataclysms are good. Now if it is the same and this is just a add on then great it will just make him stronger. Also these new pockets or Cataclysm do they contribute to his limit because if they do then we have killed his 2 with his 3 and vise versa. I can't use my Rift Surge with my Time Stop as it would speed force me out of my powers with a spit ton of enemies that are really pissed at me. That just won't do, so that gives us more reason to find another solution besides shutting his powers down. That's all on Rift Surge for now.

Cataclysm: Remains mostly the same just adds a much needed stun and a damage scaling. Now this I like but I've always said it is tricky, here's why. If you walk into a shrinking bubble get stunned/ knocked down it shrinks.... see where I'm going, how do enemies actually get into the bubble especially a low duration one, they would get stun drop get up get stunned again because they are outside the bubble again and so on and so forth. So on cast that is great. But for his Time stop to be useful in Cataclysm they have to be able to make it in first. Though on the other side of things it makes for a great CC tactic. That and only the Infested and the melee unit in the Grineer and Corpus actually run in the others shoot and walk so even a delayed effect may not work. I still like my dense fog in the rift idea to reduce visibility and increase finisher and stealth finisher chance but that's me. That's all I have for Cataclysm for now.

In closing I actually like all or the concepts presented in the dev stream. I looked at it like them showing us where they are going with it now it's up to us and our feedback to help them tweak the ideas so they work. I don't recall and I could be wrong Rebecca ever asking to use the account of someone else on a frame. This shows us they don't use Limbo often if at all so for us full time Limbo players we saw all the flaws immediately but that again is ok. Like I said now it's up to us to say hay great idea but.... so please  keep submitting these great ideas and tweak or changes (hahahahahaha do I sound like a warframe rep or what hahahaha) I only say this because yes they are going to do what they want however they said it best if you come at them the wrong way, human nature they say screw it and boom a crappy rework. As this is my favorite frame I don't want that to happen. Of course I'm not going to go to another frame like others may I'm just going to play another game. Some find that extreme but if you played a sports game that had every team but yours or they removed your team from the game would you still play.... if the changes are that bad then that's no longer Limbo it's an imposter in a Limbo costume. Now I'm ranting my apologies, back to the subject matter, some may love the changes some may not but I'm sure we can constructively find a solution together. Thanks all and if you do read this Devs team I would love to play around with the rework as it is in development! Just saying! HAHAHAHAHA! Seriously though! 

[(PSN)EVILFLUFFMONSTER]

I cant argue with more options.

Personally I shall reserve judgement till I have tried the rework with different builds.

I suggested in rework threads a few times making banished/enemies in the void able to detonate and damage enemies out of it - combined with the AOE banish, its exactly the sort of idea I proposed, with improved implementation(You had to manually detonate them in close proximity in my version, which on reflection would have been a pain).

The only thing I would have liked was rift surge imbuing team mates weapons with increased damage also, or allowing their bullets to pass through the rift for a short time. I still feel people will moan they cant shoot stuff with a limbo blocking everything with mini-cataclysms.

Also, people moan about how they cant get pickups in the rift - I dont see it as a big deal most of the time unless im specifically farming stuff, however surely this problem will be made worse by mini-cataclysms popping up all over the place? 

[Jangkrik]

As a Limbo player, I think this is very accurate. Another thing to note, did they mention anything about the current Rift Surge? I'm hoping that the Rift Surge is going to be included in his new #3 instead of being completely replaced by it as the damage multiplier is an essential toolkit for assassin playstyle.

[Evanescent]

3 hours ago, Voidforged said:

The rework while fantastic is still a little clunky. I support all of these changes/additions with the preference that double tapping roll actually performs the dash, and single tap still acts as normal.

 

3 hours ago, (PS4)watt4hem said:

I'd rather double tap roll do the dash instead, so the roll will always be the same regardless of frame

Why not give an option? You can already choose between holding and tapping for Vauban and Ivara. Keybind it to your pleasure.

3 hours ago, (PS4)godlysparta said:

Here are my technical solutions. 

1) Make Banish single target when it's tapped but AoE when it's held. It can be casted on the floor when the ability is held. 

This is much more simple than the quoted solution and grants Limbo even more flexibility.

Same as above, let it be an option. Personally I think any held function is clunky in warframe.

3 hours ago, (PS4)godlysparta said:

2) Rolling will function as normal but going into the Rift requires 2 taps in quick succession.

Limbo is a frame based on timed and quick strategy. Making the the roll a double tap would be awful and still limit his mobility and maybe make his mobility even worst.

See above.

3 hours ago, (PS4)godlysparta said:

3) The solution would be to make projectiles the same entity as their source.  

This would give the Rift a lot more space. Projectiles have a limited range usually so it would work out.

What do you mean?

[2Peter3Nine]

Greetings Limbo brother. (or sister)

I pretty much agree with everything here.

 

I would love for his riftwalk to be activated by holding the roll button.

I use the roll button very frequently, so much so that i mapped it to my right mouse clicker.

If it was activated wby holding the same button, it would make my limbo life much better.

 

Banish having an AoE would make the power worthless in long rescue missions.

Imagine trying to banish the hostage only to banish some eximus also. limbo and the hostage both die, and the mission is failed.

I like the spreading idea of being able to hold-cast banish to create the AoE version,

while just taping it does the original single target version.

 

I think Surge shouldn't make more rift pockets, because the last thing limbo needs is uncontrollable pockets of the rift everywhere.

Pocket open up on a large group of enemies shooting at something? Bye bye powers.

Pocket open up on enemies behind limbo? he dead.

If they do add the rift pockets, instead they should make them rift tears,

and if you hit them with banish, they then open for a time, or explode, hurt, and knock things down again.

And it better keep the damage modifier scaling,

limbo is almost worthless without it, since it's his only source of good damage.

 

As for Cataclysm, it's end shouldn't be when it's best.

It's start, or duration should be, the effect should be cataclysmic.

I think a small but scalable damage tick of finisher damage every second to every enemy would be great.

Maybe 25/50/75/100 finisher damage, with a 5/10/15/20% stagger chance every second.

(not going to kill a level 100 bombard eximus, but it'll keep the smallfry out of your hair)

Maybe enemies inside the cataclysm deal 10/20/30/40% less damage.

[D33STRUCTIV3]

26 minutes ago, Jangkrik said:

As a Limbo player, I think this is very accurate. Another thing to note, did they mention anything about the current Rift Surge? I'm hoping that the Rift Surge is going to be included in his new #3 instead of being completely replaced by it as the damage multiplier is an essential toolkit for assassin playstyle.

Y'know, that's another major point of interest to me. As far as I'm aware, after watching through the video ~3 times, I didn't catch anything about them retaining the damage multiplier. I really hope they keep something along those lines-- some kind of buff or debuff pertaining to the Void-affected targets, and potentially passed along through the chain Void-lightning.

[2Peter3Nine]

1 hour ago, (PS4)AlastorLines said:

For this (given that you want to snipe...if you want to create a death bubble look into the Mutalist Quanta and its combo with the Zenistar):

Primed Pressure Point, Primed Reach, Primed Fury, Spoiled Strike as the basics

And then mod for either Gas (scales of the base value of the weapon and not the stats of the disc as far as I remember) or Blast with emphasis on Status Chance. Gas will kill enemies by the procs, while Blast will stun them. As the disc is pure elemental damage the probability for procs is extremely high and the base 25% Status Chance is more than enough.

What enemy do you want me to test that build on?

[(PSN)rowansprite]

In my own opinion, you can still be that "control" version of Limbo with this new setup. It looks to me like the rework is going to not only retain the usefulness of past builds, but open up a lot of new builds.

A full-on range build, for instance, looks as if it'll make a chaotic and "unstable" rift gameplay, with Cataclysms everywhere, enemies constantly being shoved into the rift, so on. A negative range build, however, might very well achieve that precision you were asking for in this post. Of course, the AoE will still be present, but it looks as if it would only affect enemies that are practically touching each other with negative range.

[(PSN)watt4hem]

35 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

 You can already choose between holding and tapping for Vauban and Ivara. Keybind it to your pleasure.

We can?? This changes everything.

 

Spam build soon.

Edited February 18, 2017 by (PS4)watt4hem

[Buzkyl]

While the Limbo rework gave Limbo alot more options to send enemies into the rift,what wasn't shown was the ability to force enemies out of the rift. This is especially useful for reducing the active number of enemies within his cataclysm and mini cataclysm to prevent Stasis from overloading.

 

Proposed Change:

• When casting Banish on an enemy within Cataclysm, the target is teleported to a spot shortly outside the bubble.
• Banish can be used to close mini cataclysms caused by rift surge.

 

This allows Banish to still retain use when limbo is inside his bubble as a way out of the rift rather than into it. It also aids in limiting the number of active unwanted pockets of the rift that may be caused by rift surge.

 

What do you guys think?

[Evanescent]

1 minute ago, (PS4)watt4hem said:

We can?? This changes everything.

 

Spam build soon.

Indeed. Look for the option in your settings.