Pacifism Defect Victory Tier

[Eggs-DE-]

As of the time of writing, there are:

• 197 Ghost clans eligible
• 23 Shadow clans eligible
• 2 Storm clans eligible
• 1 Mountain clan eligible

and zero Moon clans

This is based off the leaderboards as per http://content.warframe.com/dynamic/pacifismDefect.php

 

A noticeable and sharp decrease in eligibility grows with clan size.

The event still has four days to complete but numbers won't grow very much due to the nature of taking the best score of each member.

 

The current requirement is 403 points per member in a full clan. Yet Ghost clans have the highest number of eligibility. The reason? DE has not accurately planned for inactivity in clans.

 

When DE lowered the participation tier, they said they made the numbers based off 50% activity in clans prior to the change.

If DE planned for 50% activity it means they assumed each Moon clan has 500 active members. This would mean each member would have to get at least 806 points in one run or 202 Kavor evacuated.  

 

However, how likely is a Moon clan to be able to get 202 evacuees for 500 members? How many clans have 500 active members?

The reality of clan size is a Moon clan can have as few as 301 members, a Mountain can have 101, and so on. Of the members in the clan, there can be as few as 1 active.

 

It's easier to have full and active Ghost clan than a Moon. The factors of inactivity as well as vacancy mean it becomes harder for larger clans to meet the requirements.

 

Victory tier should've been changed alongside participation. The closest Moon clan has 65% of the points required. At the current rate, more clans will get the clan research reward than the actual weapon.

 

I hope this brings some attention to the matter and get DE to change it. It's probable that most players will be unable to achieve victory tier. The reward isn't worthy of this level of "difficulty."

[Mk.1]

I think you're reading something wrong on that site..

[Eggs-DE-]

@Mk_1

The site is for top 10%. It isn't the same as Victory tier. The site shows their points though so it can used as data.

[Mk.1]

Oh, I see what you're talking about. I guess I miss-read. 

That is actually pretty bad, I hadn't noticed that. DE hopefully notices that and adjusts for further events. At least they'll still get the Participation and Top 10% tiers.

[MagPrime]

I'm tired and am gonna be a little blunt; those Warlords made the choice to increase their clan size as well as to allow such a high inactivity rate.  Everyone was given ample warning before the event started - downsize or deal with the rating system. 

It sucks.  Trust me, I wanted to downsize our Shadow to Ghost when I read that, but my brother felt we would manage fine and didn't want all the inactives removed.  Now, we're down to 9 actives and we'll all have to get a total of 337 rescues in one run, just to hit Victory Tier.  We'll make it, we'll hate DE for a bit afterwards, but we're taking responsibility for our choice.

And I honestly doubt we'll change our stance on future events.  The social aspect of the game is more important to us than leaderboards.  The only reason we're pushing so hard is because enough of the clan wants the weapon pre-built. 

But asking DE to further adjust the point system because some clans decided not to think about how hard this event was gonna be?  Nah.  They've already done it once, and cut the requirements by over half, as well as giving clear information on how point scaling would work.  Not DE's fault they were ignored.

[puciate]

Well, hey, look! for the moon clan to get potatoe'd weapon you need 403k points. The best of the best moon clan has 262k...

...

 

 

[CrudShuzKong]

Its as if DE has no idea how scaling works...

Hardcore tier being miles under victory tier must really feel like a punch in the guts.

[Azlen]

14 minutes ago, puciate said:

Well, hey, look! for the moon clan to get potatoe'd weapon you need 403k points. The best of the best moon clan has 262k...

...

 

 

Well then maybe some of those clans should not be moon. I'm sure lots of people keep their clans that size just for the option and for the status of being a moon clan. Great. You can do that. Don't be surprised when you get punished for it though (and it's not even a punishment. It's just a "you have to work this hard to get the best of the best since you chose to be something you aren't")

4 minutes ago, CrudShuzKong said:

Its as if DE has no idea how scaling works...

Hardcore tier being miles under victory tier must really feel like a punch in the guts.

Just because you are the best of the best doesn't mean you can't still be bad. If all the ghost clan solos had thousands of pathetically low scores, that doesn't mean anyone higher than that automatically proved themselves worthy of the Victory tier. It just means there are a lot of crappy players. That alone doesn't justify giving you something you didn't rightfully earn.

[CrudShuzKong]

11 minutes ago, Azlen said:

Just because you are the best of the best doesn't mean you can't still be bad. If all the ghost clan solos had thousands of pathetically low scores, that doesn't mean anyone higher than that automatically proved themselves worthy of the Victory tier. It just means there are a lot of crappy players. That alone doesn't justify giving you something you didn't rightfully earn.

Substitute "bad" with "not stupid enough" and you might be on to something. Players just realised that there is practically no point in going past the participation tier and thus they drag down the hardcore tier. our <20 man storm clan is actually quite close to hitting the 10%, but our chances at victory are still 0.

Edited March 5, 2017 by CrudShuzKong

[puciate]

2 minutes ago, Azlen said:

Well then maybe some of those clans should not be moon. I'm sure lots of people keep their clans that size just for the option and for the status of being a moon clan. Great. You can do that. Don't be surprised when you get punished for it though (and it's not even a punishment. It's just a "you have to work this hard to get the best of the best since you chose to be something you aren't")

Some??? We're talking about the best of the best! There is not even one moon clan that fits the criteria!

Before you start throwing more arguments missing my point of view:

MOON CLAN is a myth! There is no such thing as 1k active players in one group. This event proves that. There is not even 500 active players group...

[Golmihr]

1 hour ago, DarkSlayer690 said:

As of the time of writing, there are:

• 197 Ghost clans eligible
• 23 Shadow clans eligible
• 2 Storm clans eligible
• 1 Mountain clan eligible

and zero Moon clans

This is based off the leaderboards as per http://content.warframe.com/dynamic/pacifismDefect.php

 

 

Eh no. Top 10% means the 1/10 of the total amount of clans in that tier.

[Azlen]

3 minutes ago, CrudShuzKong said:

Substitute "bad" with "not stupid enough" and you might be on to something. Players just realised that there is practically no point in going past the participation tier and thus they drag down the hardcore tier. our <20 man storm clan is actually quite close to hitting the 10%, but our chances at victory are still 0.

My clan is 4 man ghost clan. We are getting Victory Tier. That is 40% of the clan. So unless you have less than 12 active members in your storm clan (which if you did you should be a Ghost clan) then it is more than possible for you, and in fact easier in terms of mission difficulty than we had it. If you choose not to step up to the challenge, you don't receive the reward. That's how the world works my friend.

[Azlen]

5 minutes ago, puciate said:

Some??? We're talking about the best of the best! There is not even one moon clan that fits the criteria!

Before you start throwing more arguments missing my point of view:

MOON CLAN is a myth! There is no such thing as 1k active players in one group. This event proves that. There is not even 500 active players group...

First of all, 4 days left in the event buddy. Organizing that many people will take time, that's a given.

 

5 minutes ago, puciate said:

There is not even 500 active players group...

And there you go. Proving my point. If you can't manage to be even 500 members in an active group, you should not be a moon clan. Sure that may be a hundred or two hundred members you need to find a place for, but guess what, you could just have another Mountain clan *gasp*. Alliances are very much a thing. Should we need this awkward circumvention? Certainly not. If anything, it should dynamically have scaled to the amount of players in the clan. But still, you know what it entails when you decide to build that moon barracks. It doesn't just happen. You make the choice to accept the fact that upgrading assumes numbers largely based on maximum possible clan size. This event is no different. And people knew what was happening with the event too. People were warned. And now they are paying the price. (or they have lives and haven't gotten to it, again, 4 days left).

[CrudShuzKong]

9 minutes ago, Azlen said:

My clan is 4 man ghost clan. We are getting Victory Tier. That is 40% of the clan. So unless you have less than 12 active members in your storm clan (which if you did you should be a Ghost clan) then it is more than possible for you, and in fact easier in terms of mission difficulty than we had it. If you choose not to step up to the challenge, you don't receive the reward. That's how the world works my friend.

I could of course quit my job and leave my family in order to squeeze out some more points here. Otherwise i wont be able to stay in missions for that long... Right now it takes what, 1h for ~100-150 extractions, and my mates and i would have to get over 2k points each meaning 500 extractions. thats over 3h of playing nonstop, not something i can easily afford to do (or most of my clanmates for that matter). I know i wont get the reward and i dont care enough to even try as it isnt even worth it. All I'm trying to get across is that there sems to be a balancing issue if getting the hardcore tier is easier than victory.

And yes we should be a ghost (or at least shadow) clan, i jsut couldnt reach our wl in time to tell him to reduce the tier.

Edited March 5, 2017 by CrudShuzKong

[Azlen]

2 minutes ago, CrudShuzKong said:

I could of course quit my job and leave my family in order to squeeze out some more points here. Otherwise i wont be able to stay in missions for that long... Right now it takes what, 1h for ~100-150 extractions, and my mates and i would have to get over 2k points each meaning 500 extractions. thats over 3h of playing nonstop, not something i can easily afford to do (or most of my clanmates for that matter). I know i wont get the reward and i dont care enough to even try as it isnt even worth it. All I'm trying to get across is that there sems to be a balancing issue if getting the hardcore tier is easier than victory.

I just realized you said storm clan (not shadow) with <20 members. You should realize your mistake. You aren't a storm clan. You are a shadow clan. And now you cannot earn the reward for a clan level that you aren't. How is that DE's fault? But that aside, to your main point.

Again, you have this mentality that Hardcore should be harder than Victory. Why? What gives you that mentality? Because its called Hardcore? Because it physically comes in a list after Victory? For a majority of people that will earn that reward, it IS hardcore. Hardcore means better/more difficult than the average player can achieve. It means it's not for everyone. It means only certain people get it. And that is exactly what Hardcore tier is. No matter how good every player in the game is, only 10% will be the Hardcore. Because they are the best of their clan size. If you can't compete with that, no worries! It's an event weapon for a reason. They didn't even have to include the research, but they decided to, for those who proved they could do the best. Logically the only reason Victory tier comes before Hardcore is because everyone can get it if they put in the effort. But no matter how much effort is given, not everyone can get the Hardcore tier. Simple as that.

[CrudShuzKong]

1 minute ago, Azlen said:

I just realized you said storm clan (not shadow) with <20 members. You should realize your mistake. You aren't a storm clan. You are a shadow clan. And now you cannot earn the reward for a clan level that you aren't. How is that DE's fault? But that aside, to your main point.

Again, you have this mentality that Hardcore should be harder than Victory. Why? What gives you that mentality? Because its called Hardcore? Because it physically comes in a list after Victory? For a majority of people that will earn that reward, it IS hardcore. Hardcore means better/more difficult than the average player can achieve. It means it's not for everyone. It means only certain people get it. And that is exactly what Hardcore tier is. No matter how good every player in the game is, only 10% will be the Hardcore. Because they are the best of their clan size. If you can't compete with that, no worries! It's an event weapon for a reason. They didn't even have to include the research, but they decided to, for those who proved they could do the best. Logically the only reason Victory tier comes before Hardcore is because everyone can get it if they put in the effort. But no matter how much effort is given, not everyone can get the Hardcore tier. Simple as that.

It should be harder because the reward is actually better.

[Azlen]

@CrudShuzKong Actually it's not. To any given player, a free slot, a free catalyst, and a fully built weapon has more value than research in a dojo. The Hardcore Tier actually serves no benefit whatsoever to anyone that earns it, because they were already given the BP as a participation reward. The Hardcore tier reward is a status symbol for the clans that earned it. Just because you may want it for your clan more than slots and catalysts which you probably already have doesn't inherently make it a better reward.

Quote

It should be harder because the reward is actually better.

 

Edited March 5, 2017 by Azlen

[CrudShuzKong]

2 minutes ago, Azlen said:

@CrudShuzKong Actually it's not. To any given player, a free slot, a free catalyst, and a fully built weapon has more value than research in a dojo. The Hardcore Tier actually serves no benefit whatsoever to anyone that earns it, because they were already given the BP as a participation reward. The Hardcore tier reward is a status symbol for the clans that earned it. Just because you may want it for your clan more than slots and catalysts which you probably already have doesn't inherently make it a better reward.

You are forgetting that owning this research puts you into a neat position to abuse that, making a lot more plats off of it than one slot+catalyst is worth. We all know its going to happen. Players asking for platinum for access to their research.

[Azlen]

2 minutes ago, CrudShuzKong said:

You are forgetting that owning this research puts you into a neat position to abuse that, making a lot more plats off of it than one slot+catalyst is worth. We all know its going to happen. Players asking for platinum for access to their research.

You are definitely correct. However, I'm sure there will also be pleeeeenty of people wanting to boost their ego by going into all chats and letting all random players into their clan to gain access to the research for free.

[CrudShuzKong]

1 minute ago, Azlen said:

You are definitely correct. However, I'm sure there will also be pleeeeenty of people wanting to boost their ego by going into all chats and letting all random players into their clan to gain access to the research for free.

Let's hope for the best in that regard. It is actually one of the main reasons i want the research, but it is going to be difficult. I want to grant as many people as possible a little backdoor right past the grindwall.

[Azlen]

Just now, CrudShuzKong said:

Let's hope for the best in that regard. It is actually one of the main reasons i want the research, but it is going to be difficult. I want to grant as many people as possible a little backdoor right past the grindwall.

Right on, I can definitely respect that. We are the same, as soon as I saw 10% I thought 'oh no'. But then as soon as I saw the leaderboard page I knew we had it in the bag. I do sincerely hope you guys can get the blueprint to bring it to all the players :)

[Madway7]

And so it was realized that if you care about the new tier reward system the best thing to do is to downsize your clan as much as possible then fill it up and kick everyperson who remains 4 or more days offline at a time from the clan.

And this practice was found to be so effective that many other clans joined in and alienated any and all new players who wouldn't be much help in events, people who had jobs and lives but still wanted to play the game and be in a clan with people they like and also anyone who ever decides to take a break from the game.

 

#MakeClansGreatAgain

Edited March 5, 2017 by Madway7

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, Azlen said:

You are definitely correct. However, I'm sure there will also be pleeeeenty of people wanting to boost their ego by going into all chats and letting all random players into their clan to gain access to the research for free.

If my ghost clan gets a BP, I'll use that a leverage to recruit only top players. I'm sure that's how most clans will use this. It's form an elite class... And I think the game will be better for it

[Hypernaut1]

42 minutes ago, Madway7 said:

And so it was realized that if you care about the new tier reward system the best thing to do is to downsize your clan as much as possible then fill it up and kick everyperson who remains 4 or more days offline at a time from the clan.

And this practice was found to be so effective that many other clans joined in and alienated any and all new players who wouldn't be much help in events, people who had jobs and lives but still wanted to play the game and be in a clan with people they like and also anyone who ever decides to take a break from the game.

 

#MakeClansGreatAgain

If players don't want to participate in clan activities, they can just use their friend list to keep in touch with friends.

Before this event, clans were just an extended list, now they mean something.

I plan on kicking inactives from my ghost clan. They'll still have me on their friend list. We can still play together whenever they decide to hop back on.... Buy they won't be hurting our clans progress anymore.

What's wrong with that? 

Of course I can make exceptions, but if a player is gone for a few months, chances are they may have moved on or don't care much for WF anymore

Edited March 5, 2017 by Hypernaut1

[Madway7]

54 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

If players don't want to participate in clan activities, they can just use their friend list to keep in touch with friends.

Before this event, clans were just an extended list, now they mean something.

I plan on kicking inactives from my ghost clan. They'll still have me on their friend list. We can still play together whenever they decide to hop back on.... Buy they won't be hurting our clans progress anymore.

What's wrong with that? 

Of course I can make exceptions, but if a player is gone for a few months, chances are they may have moved on or don't care much for WF anymore

I was referring to players who want to participate, but would need to be carried. Since they're setting up this best score thing, it means that if you cannot be very effective, either other people will have to overcompensate for you in the mission or it would be better to seek someone who can do the mission in the first place. (Which would be players with a lot of playtime)

They're not only factoring in inactivity in a clan to the extent where clans are not usually used, but they're also not factoring in that not everyone in a clan can go to get 800 points (for example) to help the clan.