Let Me Get This Straight...Tonkor "Nerf"

[-N7-Leonhart]

Just now, 3RRORX2 said:

your math is kinda wrong on that one they do the same dmg just tonkor has more crit chance but if you consider the mag size of the penta it is a better choice and does more dmg + you can use tether grenades on it 

Yes, what is so difficult to understand. Penta has more shots but does less damage per shot, Tonkor has less shots but does more damage per shot. Right now, Tonkor is not meant to be a weaker or stronger weapon than that, but an equal weapon.

[D0NE1]

Just now, -N7-Leonhart said:

Yes, what is so difficult to understand. Penta has more shots but does less damage per shot, Tonkor has less shots but does more damage per shot. Right now, Tonkor is not meant to be a weaker or stronger weapon than that, but an equal weapon.

let me calculate for you in base stats i'm going to use the secura penta for this example both same builds (my tonkor build with 6 forma)
Penta: ~2625 if it crits with every bullet 5250 (dmg per full mag) (10% crit)

Tonkor: ~800 and if it does crit on every bullet with base stats its 2000 (dmg per ful mag)

ill also include my full build dmg numbers

Penta: per bulelt no cirt ~13602.3  full mag ~95216.1 no crit / 25% crit 4.4x multi gives you roughly 1 in 5 crit chance so every 3d bullet should crit w split chamber lets say out of 7 it crits 2 times ~187711.74

Tonkor: per bullet no crit 12091.6 full mag ~24183.2 no crit  / 62.5% crit 5.5x multi lets say every bullet crits 133007.6

conclusion penta does more dmg base and more dmg fully moded with a tonkor build for comparison reassons

[(PSN)DarkYagami-DSC-e]

On 3/25/2017 at 3:45 AM, Ryunokage said:

That's an idiotic argument to make. Ask anyone who had issues with the tonkor and they'll readily tell you that people who use weapons like the tonkor, telos boltace or the simulor ruin the gaming experience by killing everything without allowing their team-mates to do anything.

DE nerfed the tonkor and other associated meta weapons not because they were fun, but because they trivialised the games content to the point that everyone in the game session with you got affected. 

And since you and others like you have no qualms about ruining another person's gaming experience through the proliferate use of meta weapons, going so far as to dismiss our concerns as being inconsequential to you, DE had to step in and do something about it.

You really have yourself to blame for this, if you and others like you had moderated your use of meta weapons and not used them in such domineering fashion, it would never have come to this. As it stands I hope DE gets around to nerfing every other meta-frame or load out in the game. The secondaries like the sonicor need to go as well.

 

You need to go find another game you like and stop trying to change this one. It was stupid to nerf this weapon, it's not the same weapon anymore after the nerf. If they though the weapon was Op then they should have vaulted it instead.

[Zeratul81]

I originally felt that this nerf was going to make it impossible to use the Tonkor but I have still been using it.

 

Naturally it takes a lot more precision to use the weapon and you have to get a feeling for the radius of the explosion to avoid getting hit. So far I have been doing pretty well. The crit nerf on the weapon is clearly visible from the past and this is pretty annoying. I don't have a Riven for the Tonkor yet and not gonna spend plat to get one so just have to get lucky.

 

I typically play a Frost in Excavation missions that is modded for a high range for the Globe and use a Tonkor. If I would have to point out the main problem for me at the moment on those missions then it typically is that on many occasions when another Frost is in the mission they keep putting their default or small size Globe on top of the excavator even though the larger ones exists. This basically means that I am not able to use Tonkor to defend the excavator when mobs are already next to it. The only option at that point is to use secondary/melee or push the enemy back by applying the Globe again. Most of the time people do stop using the smaller Globe but there is always the special ones that like to cause problems. At that point it is pretty much up to them to handle the Excavator and I head to the next one.

 

I still find it quite wierd that Tonkor got so much hate. Its a surprise because I've NEVER had anyone complain about it and I would imagine that after hundreds of hours there would have been someone that said something. What I have heard being said about Tonkor users killing everything in the missions is also wierd. Especially in the Excavation missions because you can pretty efficiently divide the group even when doing a single excavator at a time. I would also personally like more challenge in these missions and typically when the mobs start getting harder people just opt to leave the mission just when its starting to get challenging. Naturally you are just fighting for the same rewards with harder opponents but I still find it more interesting. (Ì guess most of the time it might be because of very weak Warframes or weapons damage becoming inefficient)

 

I wonder what people that thought Tonkor took all the fun away from the game think about Limbos at the moment? It is again another Warframe that I have not bothered to get to know but I imagine the sudden appearance of them is related to some rework of their abilities. While I don't mind getting some easy Excavations I can safely say that the mission turns into EXTREMELY boring at that point.

 

The difference for me is that I would not be going to DE asking for nerfs to Limbos just because I had a "bad" expirience as I know I won't be running them on every occasions and if I did run into them frequently then I could just leave the group at the very start and look for another one while they got a replacement since I left at the start of the mission. So no big problem for anyone involved.

 

To me it seems the last thing Warframe needs is more useless weapons and Warframes that serve the purpose of being MR fodder.

 

Edited April 30, 2017 by Zeratul81

[(PSN)lhbuch]

Most nerfs in the game were extremely hard. It is like anything that was powerful before ends up being nerfed to the ground and becoming almost useless. 

I think that a lot of the nerfs were needed but I guess that all nerfs would be better if they were reasonable. It doesnt have to be OP but not also useless.

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

the self damage change was inevitable with the introduction of bullet jumping and we all know it. Even the people who "Loved" the gernade jump mechanic were mostly just using it as en excuse to keep it no self damage and keep it a brain dead AOE gun. and yes it was brain dead and overpowered before the nerf without question, although I wouldn't of taken away crit chance just the MR change and self damage. if your that upset about it pick up the zarr and do a hybrid crit status build thats even batter than the tonkor was before the nerf and get over it. I hate to sound harsh but the Tonkor babies as i've dubbed them just need to give it up and accept with great power comes great responsibility in the form of self damage as a trade off.

Also keep in mind that they are working on sheilf gating so one shots will eventually become much less likely. That all said and done I feel like everyone should of expected this change a long time ago considering it was the only launcher with no self damage with a few much less potent niche weapons being the only exception then and now. So in conclusion people just need to adapt and get used to it... it's still a great gun and by far the safest launcher even after the nerf so just ADAPT and you'll be fine. If I can use the zarrs cannon mode for almost 40 waves of a cramped grineer defense and full squad WITHOUT KILLING MYSELF you can with the Tonkor, end of story!

 

Signed: A three year warframe veteran and avid zarr user on almost all mission types, Cheers mate's!

[Zookes]

On 3/25/2017 at 3:15 AM, k05h said:

I did my first testrun with tonkor and Inaros. It one-shots my 4640 health if one of the "multishot" grenades bounces near you. I dont mean direct hit - just near. 

I stick with the Zarr for now because self-damage is less excessive and the arc of fire offers more control.

Must think how the shield gating will change such things.

This means now every explosive weapon has a dampener yes? Reasons also to not use the very powerful shield-less frames.

Edited May 2, 2017 by Zookes

[Ironlixivium]

51 minutes ago, Zookes said:

Must think how the shield gating will change such things.

This means now every explosive weapon has a dampener yes? Reasons also to not use the very powerful shield-less frames.

I'm sorry I haven't been watching the development of warframe as closely, shield gating was added/will be added? could you point me in the right direction for finding info on this?

[Chipputer]

On 3/27/2017 at 0:00 AM, Fallen_Echo said:

the nerd brigade wanted to destroy this weapon so no one ever uses it. They came up here and filled the forums with their whining of how "powerful" the boltace and the simulor is when the data ingame shows otherwise.

... except the data in game showed that they were overpowered.

Crying out loud, there were videos of a Frost running through a mission with a Simulor simply mashing M1 in random directions never even taking damage and wiping everything out. There were sortie-level missions dominated by people spamming Boltace spins.

You can be unhappy, but don't lie.

[TheBrsrkr]

On 4/30/2017 at 6:05 AM, (PS4)DarkYagami-DSC-e said:

You need to go find another game you like and stop trying to change this one. It was stupid to nerf this weapon, it's not the same weapon anymore after the nerf. If they though the weapon was Op then they should have vaulted it instead.

And what would vaulting it have solved? Nothing. The problem will still be there, the problem being the Tonkor was almost literally the best weapon in the game hands down and quite literally the best launcher by far. You can't  tell me that one gun with 2 shots of a 5m radius and more than 60k damage on a guaranteed critical with built in aim guide and a 2.5 second reload is anything more than blatantly overpowered. To suggest anything  else is farcical. 

 

 

 

Also hey Chipputer, long time no see. 

[Chipputer]

2 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Also hey Chipputer, long time no see. 

Gotta come back to stick up for mah boi Oberon, nah mean homie?

Actually, just got back from a break. Timing was pure coincidence. :P

[Xzorn]

Tonkor was not that good in terms of damage after the head-crit fix. Zarr has been debatabley better ever since, esp against armor.

All they needed to do was add self-damage.

The nerf to it's crit chance was just obnoxious and after seeing what Octavia can do to lvl 3,000+ armored enemies (Not an exaggeration),  I can only laugh.

This community's idea of "Powerful" is a matter of perspective. What's actually powerful??? Instantly killing a two rooms of lvl 40 enemies with Ignis? Killing a crowd of lvl 80s with Tonkor, Mesa's 300k DPS perhaps? A Riven Torrid's 170k damage per shot? Mallet causing crowds of lvl 3,000 enemies to kill themselves?

Fact is there are plenty of things that mock Tonkor in performance. Player's inability to find other and even better options is why it was nerfed.

[(XBOX)RPColten]

It has been in the game for just over two years as a Mastery Rank 5 weapon that was capable of dealing obscene amounts of damage in large radius's with zero downsides aside from ammo capacity and flight-time, both of which are not really downsides for any competent player. It completely trivialized the use of any other weapon in the game purely on the fact that it was good for anything. It completely trivialised the games content and gave no incentive to expand the arsenal and use anything else once a player got to rank 5. Team-play? Out the window. Interaction with the enemy? Gone. Just spam grenades everywhere and watch the numbers fly with reckless abandon.

Had they increased the Mastery requirement to rank 10 or 11 over time, due to its sheer end-game potential, then this change would have more cause for complaint than it does.

[Fallen_Echo]

7 hours ago, Chipputer said:

... except the data in game showed that they were overpowered.

Crying out loud, there were videos of a Frost running through a mission with a Simulor simply mashing M1 in random directions never even taking damage and wiping everything out. There were sortie-level missions dominated by people spamming Boltace spins.

You can be unhappy, but don't lie.

I guess thats where the problem comes. When i said those weapons were not overpowered i meant lv120+ void runs and such. The sortie missions and the kuva syphon runs have become outdated a long ago. It feels like in one of those cheap chinese ripoff games where they grant you equipment up to lv 100 but havent managed to steal lv60+ areas yet.

Thought im not happy with the nerfs and i dont even used the nerfed weapons expect the synsim what was my mirage exclusive (and it still dominates farm areas).

The boltace got a mechanic what play against the user.

The tonkor got crit chance nerf and is now in the same place as other explosive launchers, completely useless in 80% of maps due to self damage.

The simulor families got crit chance nerf, approx 85-90% damage decrease and ammo capacity nerf. Now only frames with strong damage buffs can use them.

[Ryunokage]

On 2017-5-2 at 5:24 PM, Ironlixivium said:

-Snip-

This isn't actually an accurate portrayal of my stance on the matter. The weapons that I have an issue with are those that.

1. Force a particular playstyle upon other players in the squad, due to the singular presence of someone with that loadout in the group.

2. Enable incompetent players or less competent players from playing the game in a manner that allows them to be as effective as their superiors, but without the required planning and execution.

In my mind any AoE weapon or warframe ability that allows a player to deal large amounts of indiscriminate damage in a wide area, with neither an associated risk/cost or a required threshold or competence to achieve, falls into the above 2 categories.

The tonkor is a less glaring example of this phenomenon, in that it isn't going to force other players with whom you might be playing with, to play in a particular way. but it is none the less something that requires very little by way of planning or skill to use. Particularly in the way that the weapon is most often employed: point blank against massed hordes. High enemy density makes a mockery of the need to aim, while the lack of self-damage allowed players to subvert its innate inaccuracy by closing into point blank range to fire.

Mind you while I feel that the tonkor did deserve a hard nerf, its not the only one. The sonicor, whips, wof-ember, soundquake-banshees and etc, all need to go.

---------------

Just an addendum, if it helps you understand my thought processes regarding weapon balance.

In the general population, there are approximately 50% with IQ scores below the 85 mark, which makes it very difficult for these people to successfully learn, plan and execute complex tasks. Its one of the reasons why middle classes all over the developed world are starting to receed, the world is now a knowledge based economy, where globalization, automation and computing that allowed the jobs that would have previously gone to that 50% to either be outsourced to a cheaper nation, replaced with automation, or made unnecessary owing to computing.

I tend to regard any popular weapon or warframe which sees frequent use as being suspect, since the less intelligent will gravitate towards any item that enables them to do the above without the required intelligence.

 

 

[Zookes]

21 hours ago, Ironlixivium said:

I'm sorry I haven't been watching the development of warframe as closely, shield gating was added/will be added? could you point me in the right direction for finding info on this?

Scott says this from the last devstream. They test the shield gating and lethal enemies with lower armor, find only shield gating to be interesting and to be added later sometime.

I do not have the timecode tho it was from the last half. Watch the devstreams for such info, it is good to stay updated if you enjoy the game so much that complaining about nerfs is a thing to do.

[Ironlixivium]

On 5/3/2017 at 11:58 AM, Ryunokage said:

This isn't actually an accurate portrayal of my stance on the matter. The weapons that I have an issue with are those that.

1. Force a particular playstyle upon other players in the squad, due to the singular presence of someone with that loadout in the group.

2. Enable incompetent players or less competent players from playing the game in a manner that allows them to be as effective as their superiors, but without the required planning and execution.

In my mind any AoE weapon or warframe ability that allows a player to deal large amounts of indiscriminate damage in a wide area, with neither an associated risk/cost or a required threshold or competence to achieve, falls into the above 2 categories.

The tonkor is a less glaring example of this phenomenon, in that it isn't going to force other players with whom you might be playing with, to play in a particular way. but it is none the less something that requires very little by way of planning or skill to use. Particularly in the way that the weapon is most often employed: point blank against massed hordes. High enemy density makes a mockery of the need to aim, while the lack of self-damage allowed players to subvert its innate inaccuracy by closing into point blank range to fire.

Mind you while I feel that the tonkor did deserve a hard nerf, its not the only one. The sonicor, whips, wof-ember, soundquake-banshees and etc, all need to go.

---------------

Just an addendum, if it helps you understand my thought processes regarding weapon balance.

In the general population, there are approximately 50% with IQ scores below the 85 mark, which makes it very difficult for these people to successfully learn, plan and execute complex tasks. Its one of the reasons why middle classes all over the developed world are starting to receed, the world is now a knowledge based economy, where globalization, automation and computing that allowed the jobs that would have previously gone to that 50% to either be outsourced to a cheaper nation, replaced with automation, or made unnecessary owing to computing.

I tend to regard any popular weapon or warframe which sees frequent use as being suspect, since the less intelligent will gravitate towards any item that enables them to do the above without the required intelligence.

 

 

     I actually agree with most of what you said there, but I find your list of things to Nerf slightly troubling. Sonicor is still, not a damage weapon. People claim it is but simple math shows otherwise. It's entirely cc and the only good cc weapon we have right now. World on fire is also very weak, and high level embers remain strictly cc as well. These ccs aren't game breaking at all though, more effective and easier ones exist. The hate for wof I believe comes strictly from lower level players, as I find that anyone who plays often and has completed most of the games content doesn't care about wof because they understand its limits. If anything it needs a rework, but the last thing it needs is a nerf. Though I can't deny that soundquake is ridiculous right now, and and I don't use melee in general, so I don't feel qualified to say whether whips are balanced or not.

     Back on topic though, I surprisingly agree with your views on tonkor, it should take skill to use. I hope we can agree on something else too: not all of the recent change reflects this. I honestly care more about the babyification and crit chance nerf than the addition of self damage. They made it easier to use in the recent change, after giving it an unnecessary nerf to damage potential. In addition, self damage right now is broken. Imo it should deal something like 45% of health + shield + effective QT hp as finisher damage, as well as a forced knockdown. This would make it a lethal but fair downside at high levels while giving it a "3 strikes and you're out" effect at low levels. This could also be 75% if 3 strikes is too much. I hope anyone can agree that an insta-death from such an easy to make mistake is terrible though. I can't tell you how many times some butcher has run in from of shots of mine, causing a situation that would have killed me. I suppose healing could also be an issue, maybe if healing were also blocked for 3 seconds? Look, I don't want easy op weapons any more than you, but lowering a weapon's skill and potential is just the worst thing you can do imo.

[Ironlixivium]

23 hours ago, Zookes said:

It is good to stay updated if you enjoy the game so much that complaining about nerfs is a thing to do.

Thank you very much, but please don't assume I don't regularly follow this games development. I do enjoy Warframe and care about its balance, but I mean, just because I care doesn't mean I should get obsessed withit and absorb every last bit of available info.

[(PSN)DarkYagami-DSC-e]

On 5/2/2017 at 3:47 PM, TheBrsrkr said:

And what would vaulting it have solved? Nothing. The problem will still be there, the problem being the Tonkor was almost literally the best weapon in the game hands down and quite literally the best launcher by far. You can't  tell me that one gun with 2 shots of a 5m radius and more than 60k damage on a guaranteed critical with built in aim guide and a 2.5 second reload is anything more than blatantly overpowered. To suggest anything  else is farcical. 

 

 

 

Also hey Chipputer, long time no see. 

Do you think vaulting the Tonkor it would have solved nothing? You would have gotten what you wanted and I would get to keep the weapon as is. Players come and go and the Tonkor would fall off the everyone has it list. I would have even been happy with the crit chance being reduced to 0 along with 0 self damage.

Edited May 5, 2017 by (PS4)DarkYagami-DSC-e

[TheBrsrkr]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)DarkYagami-DSC-e said:

Do you think vaulting the Tonkor it would have solved nothing? You would have gotten what you wanted and I would get to keep the weapon as is. 

And it would still be a broken weapon. You didn't fix the problem, you kicked it down the road and  hoped it would go away eventually. I don't care if you want a broken weapon, because broken weapons should not exist. Whether you like it or not  is entirely irrelevant. 

[(PSN)DarkYagami-DSC-e]

Isn't that how all countries deal with their debt, yet they do exist. Stop play public matches or start playing with MR 8s if you want fair.