The Orokin Sword Buff: Dakra Prime

[(PSN)jml120899]

Hello Warframe Community, 

Im here to ask you: do you wish Dakra Prime had a buff? If you are like me, you came to the correct place. As you know, the two main reasons for the outclassing of Dakra Prime are Nikana Prime and Broken War, as both have better stats and technically do not require a mastery rank (Broken War doesn't need one to actually use the sword, just finish Second Dream). Now this bothers me, as Dakra Prime not only is a vaulted weapon but one where mastery rank 6 is needed to even get blueprints for it. Even if you use primed mods and Crimson Deverish stance, it can still be lost easily to Broken War and Nikana Prime. So, how can we fix the problem? The weapon needs a buff. To begin, the base damage of 60 should be increased to 85. The speed of the weapon should be increased from 1.00 to 1.05 to make it more suited for players. The biggest factor the needs a buff is the critical damage and critical multiplier. I will leave this up to people who wish to respond. Please feel free to post feedback and your own ideas. Thank you for reading.

[TrickshotMcGee]

As much as I like the Dakra Prime because it's pretty, I would like to address the mindset you seem to have about it.

Just because something is stronger than it, does not mean it needs a buff. Dakra P isn't exactly weak, since it's a crit-viable weapon and it scales up sharply with the use of Blood Rush. Yes, B-War is stronger, and Nikana P is definitely stronger, but that doesn't facilitate the need to make it more powerful. 

 

The weapon is strong enough to work in higher end missions. Just because something is better doesn't mean that this one is obsolete. 

[Rawbeard]

any damage less than 1337 is not even worth discussing...

but honestly, if you just pull numbers out of your feeling and then not even for the entire thing I doubt you even care. because people who care put more tought and effort into "DE plz buff" threads :(

[Sakatchi]

What, insta killing level 100+s with a 4 hit combo isn't strong enough for you?

[Marine027]

9 minutes ago, TrickshotMcGee said:

As much as I like the Dakra Prime because it's pretty, I would like to address the mindset you seem to have about it.

Just because something is stronger than it, does not mean it needs a buff. Dakra P isn't exactly weak, since it's a crit-viable weapon and it scales up sharply with the use of Blood Rush. Yes, B-War is stronger, and Nikana P is definitely stronger, but that doesn't facilitate the need to make it more powerful. 

 

The weapon is strong enough to work in higher end missions. Just because something is better doesn't mean that this one is obsolete. 

Well Nikana is another weapon entirely, while Broken War is the same weapon and a straight up Upgrade to Dakra Prime i say it is a problem, of course older weapons will be overshadowed by newer ones from time to time but it seems just very dumb giving out a weapon for free while the Dakra you had to farm and even at this moment is vaulted so you whould think it sohuld be partly valauble.

[booty_hunter]

Or you can just use the Nikana Prime and Broken War since theyre stronger? How about we discuss buffing weapons that are actually worse than the Dakra? 

Edited April 2, 2017 by booty_hunter

[TrickshotMcGee]

1 minute ago, Marine027 said:

Well Nikana is another weapon entirely, while Broken War is the same weapon and a straight up Upgrade to Dakra Prime i say it is a problem, of course older weapons will be overshadowed by newer ones from time to time but it seems just very dumb giving out a weapon for free while the Dakra you had to farm and even at this moment is vaulted so you whould think it sohuld be partly valauble.

Well see, it's not a problem and that's what's wrong with the mindset. Broken War is stronger, but Dakra Prime is not weak. Just because there's something better does not mean that the weapon automatically requires an upgrade. If that were the case, no weapon would be weaker than any other weapon.

[Jangkrik]

27 minutes ago, TrickshotMcGee said:

Just because something is stronger than it, does not mean it needs a buff. Dakra P isn't exactly weak, since it's a crit-viable weapon and it scales up sharply with the use of Blood Rush. Yes, B-War is stronger, and Nikana P is definitely stronger, but that doesn't facilitate the need to make it more powerful. 

The weapon is strong enough to work in higher end missions. Just because something is better doesn't mean that this one is obsolete. 

Yes, but Dakra Prime is essentially a straight downgrade from Broken War instead of being a side grade or a weapon with different capability, hence it entirely removes the usefulness of having a Dakra Prime (other than for MR fodder) if you have a Broken War.

Dakra Prime and Broken War should at least be comparable in their abilities like Zhuge/Attica, Telos/Prime Boltor, and Sancti/Prime Tigris instead of a black and white scheme of which one is better like comparing a Braton to Mk1 Braton.

[TrickshotMcGee]

4 minutes ago, Jangkrik said:

Yes, but Dakra Prime is essentially a straight downgrade from Broken War instead of being a side grade or a weapon with different capability, hence it entirely removes the usefulness of having a Dakra Prime (other than for MR fodder) if you have a Broken War.

Dakra Prime and Broken War should at least be comparable in their abilities like Zhuge/Attica, Telos/Prime Boltor, and Sancti/Prime Tigris instead of a black and white scheme of which one is better like comparing a Braton to Mk1 Braton.

I honestly see nothing wrong with having such a black and white distinction between the two because there's actually nothing wrong with it. One is just better than the other. The swords are in no way connected except for sharing the same weapon class, which means absolutely nothing for balance. If it did, all polearms would be as strong as Lesion, which is a damn beast, and they simply aren't. I daresay that most polearms are utter garbage while Lesion tears everything apart. 

 

The Zhuge/Attica have different functions. Attica is crit-focused and Zhuge leans toward status. Both just happen to be powerful. 

The Boltor family isn't actually very powerful, let alone being considered among the most powerful 1-handed weapons in the game. They're also basically the exact same gun, unlike Dakra and B-War.

The Tigris family are simply hitting the upper limits of reasonable levels of power. Prime one-upped Sancti, though, so their comparable power was simply because they couldn't reasonably make Prime stronger. 

[VentiGlondi]

50 minutes ago, Sakatchi said:

What, insta killing level 100+s with a 4 hit combo isn't strong enough for you?

It's not insta kill if it's 4 hits

Edited April 2, 2017 by VentiGlondi

[Kai_Shiba]

You have to ask yourself was the weapon performing good at high levels before the release of a better one handed version? If it did, there's no need for a buff.

[Sakatchi]

1 hour ago, VentiGlondi said:

It's not insta kill if it's 4 hits

Fine, insta killing after a 4 hit combo. Better?

[(PSN)jml120899]

On 4/2/2017 at 10:47 AM, Rawbeard said:

any damage less than 1337 is not even worth discussing...

but honestly, if you just pull numbers out of your feeling and then not even for the entire thing I doubt you even care. because people who care put more tought and effort into "DE plz buff" threads :(

While I understand why you think that, I actually love Dakra Prime. This is the first time I have ever written a thread about any buff. The Dakra used to be a difficult weapon to obtain and was wonderful to use. Now it's basically a trophy and rarely gets used aside from nastalga and mastering it. Broken War is given to you and Second Dream isn't really difficult to complete. I'm not begging for a buff really, just asking if you can make it a rival like Dread and Paris Prime, cause that is what it should be. I hope you can respect what I'm saying.

Edited April 4, 2017 by (PS4)jml120899

[Lost_Cartographer]

4 hours ago, TrickshotMcGee said:

I honestly see nothing wrong with having such a black and white distinction between the two because there's actually nothing wrong with it. One is just better than the other. The swords are in no way connected except for sharing the same weapon class, which means absolutely nothing for balance. If it did, all polearms would be as strong as Lesion, which is a damn beast, and they simply aren't. I daresay that most polearms are utter garbage while Lesion tears everything apart. 

 

The Zhuge/Attica have different functions. Attica is crit-focused and Zhuge leans toward status. Both just happen to be powerful. 

The Boltor family isn't actually very powerful, let alone being considered among the most powerful 1-handed weapons in the game. They're also basically the exact same gun, unlike Dakra and B-War.

The Tigris family are simply hitting the upper limits of reasonable levels of power. Prime one-upped Sancti, though, so their comparable power was simply because they couldn't reasonably make Prime stronger. 

I've seen some non-sense posts before but hot dang.

The OP I imagine would be okay if the Dakra Prime and Broken War were at least like the relationship between the Attica and the Zhuge.  But instead, they're like the Boltor and the Boltor Prime - basically the exact same guns, and the swords are basically the exact same swords.  One is just more powerful than the other.  Only problem with the relationship between the swords is that one required farming void runs for 4 different drops to obtain, yet the other and stronger of the two merely requires a player to run through a story quest.

It's not merely a matter of "they exist," it's a question of acquisition efforts, and the ratio is borked.  Not a surprise, really (not with this game,) but it's still totally a valid point to bring up.

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

Kinda agree, a prime sword this has been vaulted should at the very least be better than the free broken war given as a quest reward to everyone, or else it doesn't really serve a purpose asides from being a mastery fodder weapon.

As for the Nikana Prime, well, it's it's own thing ,it's own prime, and it imho makes sense for it to have more damage than Dakra. That said, it kinda sucks that Nikana prime is outclassed by stuff like Galatine imho... And I wish Nikana Prime would get a slight dmg buff to compensate.

And maybe it's me being a Katana fanboy, but to me the Nikana Should be the best melee weapon in the game, period... Personally I would love it if DE would release a special version of the Nikana that's given only to max MR level players and that deals the highest damage of all swords... Plus they would make so that if you need to be max MR to use it even after unlocking and leveling it to the max. Ideally it should be a special Dual Nikana setup, where pressing the alt fire switches from dual swords to single sword mode.

[HUNDarkTemplar]

7 hours ago, TrickshotMcGee said:

Well see, it's not a problem and that's what's wrong with the mindset. Broken War is stronger, but Dakra Prime is not weak. Just because there's something better does not mean that the weapon automatically requires an upgrade. If that were the case, no weapon would be weaker than any other weapon.

Problem isnt that Broken War is stronger, Its fckin much stronger in every way. My most used wep is Dakra P, I am still using It, cuz It is the best looking melee in my opinion, but yeh, Its mr 6 ( also a prime ), while Broken War is freely given top 1 one handed sword. I think Its not Dakra P that needs buff, but Its not hind or weapons like that. There should be just a simple total Prime weapony buff. Every prime weapon should be high quality weapon. No prime weapon should ever be considered mr fodder. It doesnt exactly need to be super strong endurance weapon againts level 300+ enemies, but no prime weapon should ever be weaker then a non prime weapon. In my opinion atleast. Prime weapons should be Primes, They should feel Prime weapons. Look at Braton, rly, I like braton prime and I have a friend who has it pro formad and does use It, but Its weak, totally weak, even tho It feels good to shoot with and It has nice sounds, but Its just crap compared to many other weapons. Every prime weapon should be amongst the strongest weapons, so should be the Dakra Prime. We know power creep exists and I get It, new weapons should be desired, but power creep goes out of hand after a time and It already did in Warframe. 

[(PSN)jml120899]

Please remember to post your own ideas and stats for a Dakra Prime buff. Whatever you feel is needed.

[(PSN)jml120899]

8 hours ago, Sakatchi said:

What, insta killing level 100+s with a 4 hit combo isn't strong enough for you?

Remember not everyone likes Crimson as a stance. I prefer Vengeful Revenant 

[shut]

9 hours ago, TrickshotMcGee said:

Just because something is better doesn't mean that this one is obsolete. 

Wuh? That's not what "obsolete" means.

The Dakra Prime isn't weak by any means. However, it IS obsolete because there exists an option that is:
- equal or stronger in every aspect
- cheaper to minmax
- easier to obtain

 

As it stands, even though Dakra is still perfectly usable, there is still literally ZERO reason to use it for any reason other than MR. This is not okay.
What people are suggesting isn't necessarily to make Dakra "better" than the BW, but to make it a viable option so players actually get to choose which one they want to use, with neither choice putting them at a comparative disadvantage.

I don't understand why you're against this.

[(PSN)jml120899]

3 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

Wuh? That's not what "obsolete" means.

The Dakra Prime isn't weak by any means. However, it IS obsolete because there exists an option that is:
- equal or stronger in every aspect
- cheaper to minmax
- easier to obtain

 

As it stands, even though Dakra is still perfectly usable, there is still literally ZERO reason to use it for any reason other than MR. This is not okay.
What people are suggesting isn't necessarily to make Dakra "better" than the BW, but to make it a viable option so players actually get to choose which one they want to use, with neither choice putting them at a comparative disadvantage.

I don't understand why you're against this.

Thank you for understanding. May I ask if the buffs I suggested were good to make it a viable option? Or do you have your own idea?

[TrickshotMcGee]

1 minute ago, SortaRandom said:

That's not what "obsolete" means.

Obsolete means out of date, outmoded, or simply outclassed to the point where it has become more than just impractical to use. Not things that closely describe Dakra Prime. It's still perfectly viable, but simply takes a bit more work to make it that way. By the same logic, half of the guns should be heavily buffed because things like Lex Prime, Soma Prime, and Galatine P exist and 'obsolete' weapons take more work to compete with those ones. 

Now, you'll note that nowhere did I say "Dakra is fine and doesn't need a buff." I said (to paraphrase) "Just because something else is a better choice does not mean it needs a buff."

Those are very different things to say, and it's what I was trying to address. I like Dakra the way it is, buff or no buff, but by no means does the existence of Broken War mean that Dakra Prime all of a sudden needs to be stronger just to compete. If it is weak, then it's weak regardless of whether or not B-War exists and making such comparisons is just flawed logic. If you were to apply that same logic anywhere else, we'd have a metric &#!-ton of things that "need" buffs just because there's one thing that's stronger. 

 

I'll reiterate to clear it up. Dakra could use a buff, sure. But the reason for that buff should not be because you're comparing the weapon to Broken War and it comes up short. If it needs a buff, then it should be because it's too weak or runs into content that it cannot scale to, not just because it's worse than another weapon, because more than half of the weapons in Warframe fall into that category. 

[shut]

On 4/2/2017 at 6:11 PM, TrickshotMcGee said:

Obsolete means out of date, outmoded, or simply outclassed to the point where it has become more than just impractical to use. Not things that closely describe Dakra Prime. It's still perfectly viable, but simply takes a bit more work to make it that way.

I don't want to start a super-pedantic back-and-forth about what the exact definition of "obsolete" is, but my point is that while the Dakra Prime is still perfectly useful, there's still no reason to actually use it.

 

On 4/2/2017 at 6:11 PM, TrickshotMcGee said:

By the same logic, half of the guns should be heavily buffed because things like Lex Prime, Soma Prime, and Galatine P exist and 'obsolete' weapons take more work to compete with those ones.

Well, I mean, yeah.

WF's metagame consists of relatively few weapons. Obviously not everything should be buffed to be "meta material", or even "endgame-viable" (since we still need a crapton of "stepping-stone" weapons, so players keep a clear sense of both progression and choice). But when it comes to our tiny handful of meta weapons, wouldn't more variety would be a good thing to have?

Again, I've got no clue as to why you're against such a thing. Are you in more of an "It doesn't NEED to happen" stance, or do you believe that such a thing would be genuinely detrimental for the game?

 

On 4/2/2017 at 6:11 PM, TrickshotMcGee said:

I'll reiterate to clear it up. Dakra could use a buff, sure. But the reason for that buff should not be because you're comparing the weapon to Broken War and it comes up short. If it needs a buff, then it should be because it's too weak or runs into content that it cannot scale to, not just because it's worse than another weapon

I see what you're saying here, but I disagree on a very fundamental level. As viable as a strong-but-overshadowed weapon can be, there is still zero reason to actually use it. This is a major problem.

 

It's one thing for direct upgrades to exist as a sense of progression (e.g. MK1Braton -> Braton -> BratonP, or even ScindoP -> GalatineP). These cases are totally fine.

It's quite another thing for direct upgrades to exist when:
- a "sense of progression" does not exist (e.g. BW is obtained earlier, and more easily, than Dakra Prime).
- it comparatively invalidates every other weapon in the entire category (e.g. BW being the undeniable king of all longswords, and removing any sense of "choice" from endgame players).

When cases like this occur, there is zero time at which the weapon feels like a viable option. New players won't be able to use the Dakra, and decently-experienced players will already have obtained the BW. The end result is that the Dakra never amounts to anything more than a very, very sexy-looking pile of MR points.

 

 

Sorry about the wall of text, by the way.

TL;DR : My biggest problems are:
- Dakra is never an attractive choice of Longsword at any point along a player's path of progression. This is bad.
- There is no sense of "choice" among longswords from an endgame player's perspective. This is bad.

Both of these issues can be solved by simply buffing DP so it's a viable alternative to BW.

Edited April 5, 2017 by SortaRandom

[Jangkrik]

On 4/2/2017 at 10:35 PM, TrickshotMcGee said:

I honestly see nothing wrong with having such a black and white distinction between the two because there's actually nothing wrong with it. One is just better than the other. The swords are in no way connected except for sharing the same weapon class, which means absolutely nothing for balance. If it did, all polearms would be as strong as Lesion, which is a damn beast, and they simply aren't. I daresay that most polearms are utter garbage while Lesion tears everything apart. 

 

The Zhuge/Attica have different functions. Attica is crit-focused and Zhuge leans toward status. Both just happen to be powerful. 

The Boltor family isn't actually very powerful, let alone being considered among the most powerful 1-handed weapons in the game. They're also basically the exact same gun, unlike Dakra and B-War.

The Tigris family are simply hitting the upper limits of reasonable levels of power. Prime one-upped Sancti, though, so their comparable power was simply because they couldn't reasonably make Prime stronger. 

Well, let me elaborate. Unlike some other weapons which have different stats, Dakra Prime is a straight downgrade from Broken War like Mk1 Braton to Braton (repeating my point). And there is something wrong by making a harder to earn vaulted weapon weaker than a freebie sword that can be earned by someone as low as MR3.

Your example with Lesion, I should say, is rather weak. Lesion might be the best, true, but there are still uses for other polearms. Pure elemental with status? Serro. Ground slam? Tonbo. Ultra long reach and Maiming Strike spam? Orthos Prime. Balance between status and crit with additional aggro feature? Vaykor Sydon.

The Zhuge/Attica, Boltor, and Tigris examples are what I think should happen with Broken War and Dakra Prime. You want to make one of them more powerful than the other? Sure, no problem. But don't make one of them a straight downgrade from the others because as it stands, there is literally zero reason to use Dakra Prime over Broken War aside from MR points, something that doesn't happen with the aforementioned examples.

[nickl3188]

On 4/2/2017 at 10:02 AM, (PS4)jml120899 said:

Hello Warframe Community, 

Im here to ask you: do you wish Dakra Prime had a buff? If you are like me, you came to the correct place. As you know, the two main reasons for the outclassing of Dakra Prime are Nikana Prime and Broken War, as both have better stats and technically do not require a mastery rank (Broken War doesn't need one to actually use the sword, just finish Second Dream). Now this bothers me, as Dakra Prime not only is a vaulted weapon but one where mastery rank 6 is needed to even get blueprints for it. Even if you use primed mods and Crimson Deverish stance, it can still be lost easily to Broken War and Nikana Prime. So, how can we fix the problem? The weapon needs a buff. To begin, the base damage of 60 should be increased to 85. The speed of the weapon should be increased from 1.00 to 1.05 to make it more suited for players. The biggest factor the needs a buff is the critical damage and critical multiplier. I will leave this up to people who wish to respond. Please feel free to post feedback and your own ideas. Thank you for reading.

*cough it's a Tenno made sword cough* <3

[Homer87]

If I were to suggest a buff for the Dakra Prime, I'd buff the crit damage to 2.5x, and the status chance to 20%, then call it done. That way, crit builds are viable, status builds are viable, and a hybrid of those are viable. Since it was a popular channeling weapon a long time ago, maybe a 2.0x channeling multiplier buff would work as well. It shouldn't completely replace the Broken War, but it should give choices. If the player wants raw damage, use the Broken War. If the player wants a status/channeling type of build (I don't know why anyone would make that, but humor me for a sec), then they have Dakra Prime.