[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[DeMonkey]

13 minutes ago, THeMooN85 said:

Can't you just tell those new players what to do? Why the game have to do everything for you?

Don't be lazy, don't be uncommunicative, HELP those new players :)

Because everyone speaks the same language and spends their whole life looking at Squad chat, yes?

How to use your Operator is included when you approach a Kuva Siphon, there's no reason that the same pop up couldn't appear detailing how to get out of Limbos rift the first few times it happens.

[k05h]

22 minutes ago, Zoroarkmaster65 said:

However, something I've noticed is that newer players (for example, someone under MR10) or players who have never seen or fought alongside a Limbo, are pretty much left in the dark by DE on how to get in and out of the rift.

I think this is a problem we also have with other frames. But it becomes worse with every new frame introduced. Limbo is the worst atm because of cataclysm and statis. But if new players play in a group with Octavia it is also not clear how they get buffed. Or that enemies linked to Trin should not be killed first. - New players will only understand these things when they have acquired the very frames they have to play along with on every mission. 

It would be nice to have a small introduction for each new frame that new players team up in public matches. 

[CommanderSwift]

Just now, k05h said:

I think this is a problem we also have with other frames. But it becomes worse with every new frame introduced. Limbo is the worst atm because of cataclysm and statis. But if new players play in a group with Octavia it is also not clear how they get buffed. Or that enemies linked to Trin should not be killed first. - New players will only understand these things when they have acquired the very frames they have to play along with on every mission. 

It would be nice to have a small introduction for each new frame that new players team up in public matches. 

I can see that. It wouldn't be too much excess work for DE, perhaps a few lines done by Rebecca, or a HUD overlay similar to the one on Kuva missions.

[Evanescent]

Could you not say the same of Volt's speed?

As a limbo it's the player's responsibility to banish only when asked, and to tell others how to get out if needed.

Until they start playing him there's no way for the game to let them know.

Unless you suggest they read a couple inch thick manual of what power does what.

It's part and parcel of being a newbie to learn things as you come across them. Same as real life.

[CommanderSwift]

2 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

Could you not say the same of Volt's speed?

As a limbo it's the player's responsibility to banish only when asked, and to tell others how to get out if needed.

Until they start playing him there's no way for the game to let them know.

Unless you suggest they read a couple inch thick manual of what power does what.

It's part and parcel of being a newbie to learn things as you come across them. Same as real life.

Thing is, Volt's speed isn't directly altering the way you play the game. It's just making you move faster. Banish completely flips the way you fight on its head.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Zoroarkmaster65

[THeMooN85]

26 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Because everyone speaks the same language and spends their whole life looking at Squad chat, yes?

Where are you from? Zimbabwe? Syria? Probably not if you have time and your own computer... even if your native language isn't english (hi, I'm from Poland) you know enough to communicate right? English is basic in EVERY game... hell in your life when you want to communicate with other country you start with english am I wrong? And lol "spends their whole life looking at Squad chat" duuuude... that's just arguing because why not.  

[CommanderSwift]

Just now, THeMooN85 said:

Where are you from? Zimbabwe? Syria? Probably not if you have time and your own computer... even if your native language isn't english (hi, I'm from Poland) you know enough to communicate right? English is basic in EVERY game... hell in your life when you want to communicate with other country you start with english am I wrong? And lol "spends their whole life looking at Squad chat" duuuude... that's just arguing because why not.  

I don't disagree with you, but not every player is going to be taught in English. Not to mention that Warframe can get very technical, thus making some of the wording get lost in translation.

[ApocalypticFlameFury]

13 hours ago, LeakingAmps said:

As someone who's played Limbo quite a lot in the past, here's my take on the rework:

His 1 should work, regardless of current plane. He's a master of the rift, right? Doesn't really feel like it if I have to roll twice to banish an enemy. Also, the knockdown is useless now, because it only knocks them down for the time it takes you to get back into the rift, and not much longer. In addition, Limbo is a fragile frame. Leaving the rift is usually death. Making him leave the rift for every banish is absurd.

His 2 needs to broadcast the fact that it's active. Not just on enemies (though that needs to be more obvious), but on the space itself.

His 4's new potential range is great.... but also shrinks way too much over the duration of the ability.

His dash actually made me both happy and unhappy. Having the plane change bound to a non-ability key was a clever solution, but it took away an important movement option, and his dash doesn't function the same as rolls do. He cannot fire while dashing, and nor can the dash be canceled by other animations. The rift hole is a really good way to accidentally rift your whole squad without anyone noticing, and not being able to use shift to move around (remember: leaving the rift is death) hurts Limbo's mobility. It also makes it increasingly easy to accidentally un-rift yourself by trying to roll, because since no other frame binds an ability to movement keys, it's easy to forget Limbo does.

 

Ups and Downs, not 100% thrilled about the rework, and will probably be playing Limbo less now, but it wasn't a disaster either. That said, even fixing just his 1 would change this completely. I'd be willing to work around the other stuff if banishing enemies wasn't as clunky as it is now.

You made some good points, and I loved Limbo since the beginning, (first frame after starter frame being Excalibur) and I feel like Limbo is better than before. Although we can't banish from the Rift anymore, if you put on Stretch it pretty much makes everything easier. just move around a bit and banish. Of course using Stasis is important too as well as Rift Surge preferably with the Rift Torrent augment. The Rift Dash makes him able to enter the Rift Plane without leaving him open. In the past his 2 would get him killed in the smallest window of opportunity. Problem fixed. Another problem Limbo had was crowd control. He had NONE. Now he does, and you have to manage your duration and environment especially with Corpus and Corrupted. Another problem? His 4 was useless in terms of damage and didn't match it's description because the "lethal blast" wasn't lethal and now it scales with enemies by 10% on each enemy within the Cataclysm depending on their health, therefore making it lethal. I heard his Rift Surge got a "nerf" but due to my build it isn't a nerf at all. The better Rift management you have, the more damage you can stack. His abilities have WAY better synergy now that he can control people in his domain. P.S. those of you who complain that Cataclysm is too strong obviously do not go on missions past level 50 and forgot who SARYN was. Remember? The one who has abilities that IGNORE defenses and chop right through health bars to steal all of her teammates kills? Yeah......

[DeMonkey]

10 minutes ago, THeMooN85 said:

Where are you from? Zimbabwe? Syria? Probably not if you have time and your own computer... even if your native language isn't english (hi, I'm from Poland) you know enough to communicate right? English is basic in EVERY game... hell in your life when you want to communicate with other country you start with english am I wrong? And lol "spends their whole life looking at Squad chat" duuuude... that's just arguing because why not.  

I'm English, it's most certainly my first language. Being Polish I'm sure you play in the European region, you should therefore know that it is one of the most language varied regions there is.

And yes, whilst many may understand some English who's to say they'll know what 'roll' or 'shift' means. My French lessons at school revolved around greetings and nouns, not gymnastic moves.

Due to reasons I'm currently in a friends clan, he's Polish as are all of his clan members. If I'm having a conversation with one of them, mainly in regards to trading, he has to translate.

[THeMooN85]

So basically language isn't the problem here... telling them "use/click shift" isn't hard to understand.

The problem is that the game is not telling you EVERYTHING and you need to learn it by yourself... but is that the real problem? Maybe the real problem is laziness?

[CommanderSwift]

Just now, THeMooN85 said:

So basically language isn't the problem here... telling them "use/click shift" isn't hard to understand.

The problem is that the game is not telling you EVERYTHING and you need to learn it by yourself... but is that the real problem? Maybe the real problem is laziness?

This isn't a problem of laziness. This is a problem of new players not knowing what in the hell they're supposed to be doing.

 

Player: "Okay so I'm in this cartoony place. what is it?"

Game: "I dunno."

Player: ...what put me here?

Game: "I dunno."

P: "so...How do I get out of it?"

G: "idk figure it out yourself lol"

[THeMooN85]

When the new guy is playing solo... he wouldn't be in situation like that... and if he plays Limbo he probably will figure it out after few seconds... when plays with others... well they can tell him "use shift button". Why the game have to inform/tell you everything? What are you guys? 5 YEARS OLD KIDS?

[CommanderSwift]

Just now, THeMooN85 said:

When the new guy is playing solo... he wouldn't be in situation like that... and if he plays Limbo he probably will figure it out after few seconds... when plays with others... well they can tell him "use shift button". Why the game have to inform/tell you everything? What are you guys? 5 YEARS OLD KIDS?

How do you know he'll be playing Solo? If he plays Limbo, sure, but there's no guarantee he'll play Limbo any time soon. I had Limbo sitting in my foundry for over a year before I built him. And as for others telling him, sure there's a good chance, but perhaps they'll just ignore him? Not likely, but I don't like leaving things to chance. I feel as if you're basing too many things on assumptions.  

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, THeMooN85 said:

When the new guy is playing solo... he wouldn't be in situation like that... and if he plays Limbo he probably will figure it out after few seconds... when plays with others... well they can tell him "use shift button". Why the game have to inform/tell you everything? What are you guys? 5 YEARS OLD KIDS?

I've already explained to you that not everyone will understand what 'use shift button' means. 

Stop acting as if you're on a high horse, claiming we're lazy children for wanting the game to provide basic information. Do you have any idea how ridiculous it is to oppose the addition of basic gameplay tips? Like, its mind bogglingly stupid.

 

[ChameleonBro]

16 hours ago, Murkar said:

^

Upon further investigation apparently it does restore your energy... Yeah Cataclysm will get nerfed. It isn't supposed to regen energy thoughm

[THeMooN85]

OK, I give up... you guys just want the game to do everything for you and tell you what to do... what reminds me how people was complying about that:

 

[CommanderSwift]

Just now, THeMooN85 said:

OK, I give up... you guys just want the game to do everything for you and tell you what to do... what reminds me how people was complying about that:

 

Mate, if a game is going to introduce an advanced system of gameplay, that's fine by me, but at least show some semblance of a tutorial for god's sake.

[ChameleonBro]

That is why I always turn on teammates health and shield stats so when I notice they aren't rolling I tell them about it.

[THeMooN85]

9 minutes ago, Zoroarkmaster65 said:

Mate, if a game is going to introduce an advanced system of gameplay, that's fine by me, but at least show some semblance of a tutorial for god's sake.

CODEX?!

[CommanderSwift]

Just now, THeMooN85 said:

CODEX?!

Remind me: Where the hell does it show how to exit Limbo's rift, or even details the rift at all?

[THeMooN85]

Just now, Zoroarkmaster65 said:

Remind me: Where the hell does it show how to exit Limbo's rift, or even details the rift at all?

You were asking about " advanced system of gameplay" and it's called TRAINING.

And Limbo? LOL just read his passive?

[CommanderSwift]

Just now, THeMooN85 said:

You were asking about " advanced system of gameplay" and it's called TRAINING.

And Limbo? LOL just read his passive?

Yes, because new players are definitely going to know to find a full, comprehensive list of abilities in the market/codex, and know that it also applies to them too.

totally

/s

[THeMooN85]

As I said... I give up. EoT here.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

Its not just getting in and out of the rift, its the rift mechanics in general that's not user friendly due to the lack any in game codex about it. I remember players using Limbo for the first time (including warframe youtubers) and they would banish an enemy and try to shoot it. Then they'd go, "Wtf? why can't I hit it? This warframe sucks!"

With Limbo's rework, he needs a tutorial. You can go in the rift and try to banish something and it'll say "invalid target" and its not gonna explain why. You try to press his 3 and it says "no target in range" and its not gonna tell you why.

I know people can go into forums or check the wiki but game design 101 dictates if your game is not pick up and play, there's something wrong with your design. You need a tutorial.

[(PSN)varas2110]

3 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

first few times it happens.

I've never really seen an ability that gets it own Lotus also neither have I seen something other than quests get a non repetitive Lotus message (relics, missions, people dying, etc)