[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Trichouette]

14 hours ago, Mypi said:

What do you want me to change? If it was the text color, i fixed it, my bad.

It was about the font color :p

It's better that way.

16 hours ago, Kei-Inc. said:

With cata, I also think they need to get rid of the 10 energy regen per kill, making it less spamable because it causes infinite nuking

Actually that passive is great to make limbo player use a lot the rift.

They should just nerf cataclysm or make kills by cataclysm not refund energy.

[Demon.King]

21 minutes ago, Clonmac said:

- snip -

As I said, Minimum duration is 15%, leading to 4.5 seconds cataclysm. Still spammable.

Negative duration making his other skills useless is completely irrelevant because we all know the exact same thing applied to Saryn and most still went negative duration. And we all know what happened to Saryn, we DEFINITELY don't want the same thing happening to Limbo.

[Clonmac]

8 minutes ago, Demon.King said:

As I said, Minimum duration is 15%, leading to 4.5 seconds cataclysm. Still spammable.

Negative duration making his other skills useless is completely irrelevant because we all know the exact same thing applied to Saryn and most still went negative duration. And we all know what happened to Saryn, we DEFINITELY don't want the same thing happening to Limbo.

I understand, but I don't think it would have the same effect here since a duration that short would greatly increase the speed at which it shrinks. Even if you went max range at +150%. At that range it would shrink from a radius of 40m to 12.5m in just 4 seconds. It effectively makes it so that for a Limbo to reach max damage with Cataclysm, you'd need it to detonate at its smallest radius. Which effectively kills its ability to retain the number of enemies needed to cause it to wipe out large numbers.

Not to mention to achieve these numbers you'd need: Fleeting Expertise, Transient Fortitude, Overextended, Stretch, Cunning Drift. That's 5 mods.

Not to mention the fact that you also killed his ability to Stasis enemies with a shorter duration. Stasis would also only last about 4 seconds too. So if you're thinking about doing something like this at higher levels, it would be suicide since you wouldn't be able to CC anything. You wouldn't be able to pick up any ammo without dying, etc. Sure, you could nuke a few groups after 4 seconds, but it would be an extremely inefficient way to doing it and you'd quickly fall behind other warframes over the course of the mission.

Also, if you really wanted to nerf it further (which I don't think would be necessary), you could have it scale with power strength. That would prevent the use of Overextended which would cause it to shrink even smaller during those 4 seconds.

[Demon.King]

1 minute ago, Clonmac said:

I understand, but I don't think it would have the same effect here since a duration that short would greatly increase the speed at which it shrinks. Even if you went max range at +150%. At that range it would shrink from a radius of 40m to 12.5m in just 4 seconds. It effectively makes it so that for a Limbo to reach max damage with Cataclysm, you'd need it to detonate at its smallest radius. Which effectively kills its ability to retain the number of enemies needed to cause it to wipe out large numbers.

Not to mention to achieve these numbers you'd need: Fleeting Expertise, Transient Fortitude, Overextended, Stretch, Cunning Drift. That's 5 mods.

Not to mention the fact that you also killed his ability to Stasis enemies with a shorter duration. Stasis would also only last about 4 seconds too. So if you're thinking about doing something like this at higher levels, it would be suicide since you wouldn't be able to CC anything. You wouldn't be able to pick up any ammo without dying, etc. Sure, you could nuke a few groups after 4 seconds, but it would be an extremely inefficient way to doing it and you'd quickly fall behind other warframes over the course of the mission.

Also, if you really wanted to nerf it further (which I don't think would be necessary), you could have it scale with power strength. That would prevent the use of Overextended which would cause it to shrink even smaller during those 4 seconds.

I still think it would punish duration builds too much.

Regardless of how they do it, I just hope that DE works on BALANCING cataclysm, not nerfing, without affecting how it works with his other abilities.

[Clonmac]

23 minutes ago, Demon.King said:

I still think it would punish duration builds too much.

Regardless of how they do it, I just hope that DE works on BALANCING cataclysm, not nerfing, without affecting how it works with his other abilities.

I don't think it would exactly punish duration builds, since people who play Limbo with duration are likely people who are going to use Limbo as designed and aren't looking at Cataclysm as a damage ability to begin with.

Also, going with a large radius would effectively prevent its use as a nuke against Corpus since a nullifier would prevent it from ever lasting its full duration when its starting size is so massive.

Either way, having a linear increase in damage that is uneffected by duration would work too, but I think it would need some hard floors and ceilings to prevent it from becoming too overpowered or useless at the extreme ends of duration.

The fact that Cataclysm shrinks and all his abilities scale with duration I think is already enough of a deterrence against negative duration builds.

I think we agree about the same similar concept though of a ramping up of damage based on how long Cataclysm was "alive" for.

[chaotea]

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Thats not good either as banish is either used to take out an enemy or to save someone from immient death.

Okay how about a buff? If you got banished you do not go in the rift until you take atleast 25% damage to your current health (you are instantly rifted if you are below 20% of your max health). While the buff is on you can damage enemies in the rift and they can damage you too, but they swithc planes with you if the buff procs.

 

OR

 

Banish works the same way as currently, with the addition that for 50% of the duration enemies and players caught in it still can deal damage on any plane.

Dont think either of those work. Especially as the second is basically saying that the power is useless. I think any changes made will need to come from a good bit of play-testing. Still saving people from imminent death doesn't seem a big use of the first power, as you cant target an ally directly, and if you port them to the rift, the enemy thats about to kill them comes too.

[(PSN)psycofang]

5 hours ago, Music4Therapy said:

1) Remove the scaling damage from his 4 so his offensive potential isn't so insane.

No please jesus this 1 is terrible, just remove the energy return -From Collapse- because technically hes not in the rift anymore and shouldnt gain back energy from collapse.

 

5 hours ago, Music4Therapy said:

2) Remove the energy gain from killing enemies to prevent Cataclysm spam.

From collapse sure but from his kit entirely just locks him back into Zenurik due to the energy heavy kit he has which id prefer stay as is.

 

5 hours ago, Music4Therapy said:

 

3) Make his Cataclysm end prematurely/explode if more than X amount of enemies are inside of it. This would allow him to maintain his offensive potential at the cost of his defensive potential. It would be a trade off.

Not really all that arbitrary number does is screw range/ rift torrent over considering he could just viral banish enemies and do generally the same thing. Only difference now is he cant cataclysm due to a random number of enemies he cant count shutting off his cataclysm which is niegh effective suicide.

 

5 hours ago, Music4Therapy said:

 

4) Do a combination of the above but give the old damage multiplier from his 3 back, but merge it with his Cataclysm so that while in the Rift/his Cataclysm is up his damage is given a multiplier of X

Which falls off like everyone elses abilities,  modifiers only do so much before enemy armor values exceed reasonable killing times vs a shrinking cataclysm bubble. 

This is a direct nerf to cataclysm and not the issues with it.

Edited April 7, 2017 by (PS4)psycofang

[djternan]

15 hours ago, achromos said:

While I don't think the scalibility should be removed from the ability I feel like it should be either more costly, and or have some sort of build up mechanic like Maim (Equinox's Ult)

They could make it build damage on enemies while they're in cataclysm then deal it when cataclysm collapses.  The longer they're in it the more damage they'll take when it ends.  This would make it scale like Maim.  You could probably still kill most things with it but it wouldn't be an instant nuke and would require duration to be effective.

[-CM-NineFingers]

5 hours ago, Music4Therapy said:

First, a list of issues with the frame and a summary of him. Then, a list of proposed solutions.

1) A frame with his defensive capabilities should not have that much offensive potential. He does too much way to well. He is a jack of all trades, master of a few. He also scales infinitely both offensively and defensively, only 3 other frames do so: Ivara, Ash, and Wukong. Ivara and Ash can avoid taking damage through stealth and can abuse Covert Lethality. Wukong has Defy and can also abuse CL. The issue here is that Limbo can apply his infinitely scaling defensive capabilities to allies/objectives and his infinitely scaling offense is applied in a massive radius. Take away the scaling from his 4 and he is still top tier due to his defensive capabilities and the fact his 2 (stasis) allows status effects to last infinitely (been abusing slash proc based builds using that method). He also has amazing CC. Basically, his kit is overloaded.

2) In addition to the above, his energy regen is absurd. 2 energy per second in the rift and the 10 energy provided by enemy kills is too much in conjunction with the raw killing potential of his 4. You can either keep his 4 the same or take away the energy gain from kills to balance this.

3) In addition to his infinite scaling in both aspects of offense and defense and near infinite self sustaining capabilities, his abilities require no build up. For example, it takes time and/or teamwork to build damage for a comparable ability to Cataclysm; Equinox's Maim or Nova's 2. Limbo, however, can just press 4 twice quickly and he has wiped a room full of enemies from existence.

 

This is coming for the aspect of an endurance player, no matter what level the enemies are Limbo will destroy the infested without retaliation. He is able to prevent the Grineer from doing anything and kill them with slash procs that last infinitely via the use of his 2. His Cataclysm damage nullifier bubbles and absolutely wrecks the whole corpus faction. The only time a skilled Limbo player has a chance of dying is against the corrupted, and even then with Naramon school that chance of death goes away. 

How would I go about fixing this? I'd do one or a combination of 4 things:

1) Remove the scaling damage from his 4 so his offensive potential isn't so insane.

2) Remove the energy gain from killing enemies to prevent Cataclysm spam.

3) Make his Cataclysm end prematurely/explode if more than X amount of enemies are inside of it. This would allow him to maintain his offensive potential at the cost of his defensive potential. It would be a trade off.

4) Do a combination of the above but give the old damage multiplier from his 3 back, but merge it with his Cataclysm so that while in the Rift/his Cataclysm is up his damage is given a multiplier of X

The infinite duration procs is a bug, don't get used to it, and don't use it as an argument. It's gonna get fixed.

You can't remove the defensive abilities of limbo, it's his core. limbo decides who should fight with him, how and when. trading defense for offense would literally kill limbo for 90% of players.

Removing the scaling damage is also nuts, he's currently, along with nidus and octavia, the only frames whose abilities scale with the enemy. All damage abilities should have at least some scaling factor on them to allow using them on every level, and stop forgetting about them past lvl 100. Scaling is a step on the right direction, not something to be nerfed.

And the energy regeneration is his signature ability, and necessary in a frame that can be so energy intensive. You would punish good players for spammers.

Don't take for granted naramon, zenurik, or the mods Limbo players have. We're discusing the frame here, not it's interactions with focus or weapons. If we did, every frame in the game would be seen as broken.

[-CM-NineFingers]

1 hour ago, Demon.King said:

It would be best to make the ability build up damage over time (ex: 0.5% per second, unaffected by duration mods, maybe capped at 10% for the sake of balance, would reach 10% after 20 seconds)(damage dealt when cataclysm collapses), so that negative duration limbo does not become a thing (The minimum duration one currently can reach is 15%, that would be 4.5 seconds cataclysm, still somewhat spammable if you want to kill units at the centre.)

That's why I suggest the damage buildup over time.

It would avoid negative duration builds, makes spamming useless, would not punish/rewards duration builds, and still allows a localised scaling nuke with a buildup.

Pretty much hits all complaints on cataclysm.

I don't like spammers, so I wouldnt have a problem if they removed the closing damage altogether and added an augment for the cataclysm that gave a 5% of the enemy EHP as damage per second when inside the cataclysm, so spammers would stop spamming, and normal limbo users wouldn't get their frame destroyed by the nerf train.

P.S.: Yes, that means everything that enters the cataclysm would die after 20 seconds, and if it was depending on power strength, it could go down to 8s or so on a str build. It's intentional, doesn't factor the level of the enemy, just kills it for being in the wrong dimension.

Edited April 7, 2017 by -CM-Limbo
added P.S.:

[Magneu]

The enormous range of Cata with no downside (who cares about negative strength when it percent scales, and who needs his other abilities if everything dies?) is a big part of the problem.

While it would be a bit harsh to cap Cata's range at its current default, that would somewhat alleviate the problem. I think there's a more complex, but better solution.

@Clonmac has a great idea with Limbo only getting the full 10% damage after a natural collapse. However, having to leave it up the full time to get the damage with even a base duration build is incredibly clunky. What if Limbo got x% damage per second (arbitrary variable), affected by power strength, or even inversely effected by range? Only Cata and Rift Surge are really affected by range; slightly increase Rift Surge's range to compensate, then make it so the higher you push range, the less x% damage Cata gains per second, while also considering if x% affected by strength would combine well with that. This would result in default/less range making Cata get max damage faster, but affecting a smaller area (higher percent with less enemies), while positive range would slow down the rate Cata gains lethal damage, but let it capture more enemies (lesser percent with more enemies)

However, it would be difficult to keep enemies in Cata long enough to kill them; no Stasis, and they can shoot/kill you or simply run out. Use Stasis, and ones at the edge will be forced out by Cata shrinking. Solution: make Cata drag Stasis-effected enemies within its borders, i.e as Cata shrinks, it keeps Stasis affected enemies within its border. This would also promote synergy between Limbo's powers instead of focusing on just one.

[Ditto132]

11 hours ago, (PS4)scinut71 said:

You don't want it in its current state. It wouldn't pass certification for Microsoft or Sony. It is full of bugs that are really affecting gameplay. Like game crashes and not getting Octavia parts.

 

Don't forget about the possibility of UI issues too.

[Buzkyl]

4 minutes ago, -CM-Limbo said:

nters the cataclysm would die after 20 seconds, and if it was depending on power strength, it could go down to 8s or so on a str build. It's intentional, doesn't factor the level of the enemy, just kills it for being in the wrong dimension.

That's even more broken than it's current Version

[-CM-NineFingers]

2 minutes ago, Buzkyl said:

That's even more broken than it's current Version

Never seen banshee take more than 20s to kill anything. not even 10s. Neither saryn. What would the problem be? he would take the same time to kill a lvl1 than a lvl 100, and it's way more than saryn or other frames need.

 

Specially given they have more range.

Edited April 7, 2017 by -CM-Limbo

[Buzkyl]

22 minutes ago, -CM-Limbo said:

Never seen banshee take more than 20s to kill anything. not even 10s. Neither saryn. What would the problem be? he would take the same time to kill a lvl1 than a lvl 100, and it's way more than saryn or other frames need.

 

Specially given they have more range.

Stop playing low levels

Banshee is not going to kill a level a level 100 Bombard or heavy gunner in less than 20s or even 10. Neither would she kill an Ancient Disruptor or healer in that time frame. For saryn to even be able to come close to do that she would have to use a heavily modded Gas Lanka which is an incredibly niche build.

[-CM-NineFingers]

17 minutes ago, Buzkyl said:

Stop playing low levels

Banshee is not going to kill a level a level 100 Bombard or heavy gunner in less than 20s or even 10. Neither would she kill an Ancient Disruptor or healer in that time frame. For saryn to even be able to come close to do that she would have to use a heavily modded Gas Lanka which is an incredibly niche build.

you know that CP is a thing, right? not foolin' anyone with that. The usual level is 40-60, which they both obliterate efortlessly. Limbo would do it too. lvl 100+ is seen only in sorties and endless runs for people who need something to feel like "endgame" Not that it's wrong, just that it's not worth comparing statistically.

Edited April 7, 2017 by -CM-Limbo

[Ditto132]

8 hours ago, main_antagonist said:

But why XD ???

To prevent bosses and mini-bosses from being brutally murdered, with proper setup, like this:

So you have to fight them as a normal soldier/warrior.

[Buzkyl]

Just now, -CM-Limbo said:

you know that CP is a thing, right? not foolin' anyone with that. The usual level is 40-60, which they both obliterate efortlessly. Limbo would do it too. lvl 100+ is seen only in sorties and endless runs for people who need something to feel like "endgame"

Corrosive projection requires 3-4 people to strip Armour. If you factor in Corrosive Pojection many DPS skills would kill along of enemies in under 20s. Also both pre and post rework Limbo would be able to kill level 40-60 enemies effortlessly with and without CP, current limbo scales way past that level range.

 

Your idea is far worse than the current form because it will change Cataclsym from being spammed to AFK gameplay when combined with stasis, as  enmeies are on a timer from the moment thye enter the bubble. And it's going to require even less effort because Limbo has access to stasis which will halt them in their tracks.

[-CM-NineFingers]

25 minutes ago, Buzkyl said:

Corrosive projection requires 3-4 people to strip Armour. If you factor in Corrosive Pojection many DPS skills would kill along of enemies in under 20s. Also both pre and post rework Limbo would be able to kill level 40-60 enemies effortlessly with and without CP, current limbo scales way past that level range.

 

Your idea is far worse than the current form because it will change Cataclsym from being spammed to AFK gameplay when combined with stasis, as  enmeies are on a timer from the moment thye enter the bubble. And it's going to require even less effort because Limbo has access to stasis which will halt them in their tracks.

same effort as spamming spores or pressing 4 with banshee, it's not afk if they do it then?

[(PSN)psycofang]

1 hour ago, -CM-Limbo said:

don't like spammers, so I wouldnt have a problem if they removed the closing damage altogether and added an augment for the cataclysm that gave a 5% of the enemy EHP as damage per second when inside the cataclysm, so spammers would stop spamming, and normal limbo users wouldn't get their frame destroyed by the nerf train.

 

Thats pretty nutty as anything would die in 20s. Maybe if they removed the cata scaled damage changed it to this and tied the 20s death to high power strength to stop negative power strength range builds from wrecking the game id be alright with this tbh.

Its not as strong as people make it seem especially vs corpus, and if armor can reduce the damage as well.

 

At that point theyd have to remove to 10 energy per kill thing too.

Edited April 7, 2017 by (PS4)psycofang

[Buzkyl]

12 minutes ago, -CM-Limbo said:

same effort as spamming spores or pressing 4 with banshee, it's not afk if they do it then?

Well they can AFK farm! why can't I?

Because the presence of one bad mechanic should not justify he existence of another. Also spore requires you to keep popping it to keep spreading it around enemies, simply spamming 1 will get you no where. Also Banshee sound quake does paltry damage, using it with the augment drains her energy supply sharply.

And while both are bad to an extent, they both don't the level of safety Stasis-Catackysm-GG would offer under your proposal, under both circumstances saryn and banshee can be killed by range enemies, Limbo does not have that problem. Range enemies won't damage his bubble and those in it are frozen in time.

[FriarTuck]

One more idea: just change the damage of Cata to (3-5% of health)*strength.
Do you want huuuuuge bubble? You need 50-80 enemies if you want to nuke them.
Do you want same amount of damage? You need 200-300% strength.

And maybe Limbo & Co should be able to use interactable objects at the cost of taking 50% damage from material plane?

[Callback]

Please do SOMETHING to optimize stasis.  Cramming that many enemies into a single room and managing the physics of it all TANKS framerates down to 1/3-1/4 of what they normally are in a heavy firefight.  This is not acceptable and if console versions inherit this rework they will literally melt.

 

Maybe once enough enemies are frozen, apply a modifier to active cataclysms where new enemies get scared/smarten up and decide NOT to charge in and get frozen as well.  Something to prevent the massive lag from managing that many enemies in a relatively small stasis area.  However you have to optimize it.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Callback

[ChameleonBro]

22 hours ago, SANYA501 said:

Yup, latest frame like nidus and octavia is a good example of frames that scale into late game VERY well. I'm not a heavy Limbo user even after the rework, But I'm actually really worried about how the dev are going to do with Limbo nerf after those Feedback. In fact every older warframe should be reworked imo to actually scale well into higher level content.....

hope DE wont overdo the nerf for limbo.....*cough* Telos Boltace*cough*

Exactly. They will most likely rework most of the old frames, but Oberon and Hydroid are on their radar as the main priorities imo.

[ChameleonBro]

22 hours ago, Skaleek said:

Wow I had no idea that kills in cataclysm refunded energy.... Certainly doesn't need that. 

Neither did I which is the reason why  I thought Cataclysm shouldn't get a nerf