Oberon Feedback 20.3.1 and beyond

[artemisfortune]

Pretty well put, I wasn't sold until they made Renewal a true toggle, but now that it is he does have his own spot now. I still think Smite should be castable on walls, or at least have a more lenient cone style targeting.

[Insizer]

Not gonna lie, I wish they had done a holistic rework rather than bootstrapping stuff onto his kit.

[Insizer]

5 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

I'm fine with him haing the same powers, but instead of going 'these are the current effects how do we number that?' and instead go 'we are making this kit aain. Let's start ground up for what each of these powers has as its conceptual use.'

To me a ground up rework, regardless of whether they keep the same abilities, counts as a holistic rework.  There were tons of things they could have done with his current kit to make him even better and practical, and there was a few pounds of fat that they could have shaved from his kit as well.

[sh00chu]

Not sure what you did to change your font color, whether it was intentional, or why, but as a heads up, your post is impossible to read in dark theme. A further heads up, in case you are unaware, using the dark theme reduces eye strain, as it is easier for the human eye to pick out light text on a dark background. 

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

Oberon also needs a bigger energy pool and his old passive back. The "new" one is just lame

[Music4Therapy]

14 minutes ago, sh00chu said:

Not sure what you did to change your font color, whether it was intentional, or why, but as a heads up, your post is impossible to read in dark theme. A further heads up, in case you are unaware, using the dark theme reduces eye strain, as it is easier for the human eye to pick out light text on a dark background. 

Very weird, it appears normal on my end.

[redeyedtreefrog]

3 minutes ago, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

Oberon also needs a bigger energy pool and his old passive back. The "new" one is just lame

His old passive would directly interfere with mission progress in defense and interception missions. Considering oberon's stationary playstyle made him well-suited for those mission types, that passive was complete and utter trash. Even disregarding that, the passive only worked against two summons of one faction, or the fairly rare natural wildlife in derelicts and earth. Versus corpus, he may as well have had no passive. This new passive creates a clear, noticeable, and positive effect, and boosts the already great utility of pets. Changing the passive yet again would be a mistake, and worse, a waste of DE's time when other aspects of his kit are much more deserving of their attention.

[nameomnz]

Hello guys, Oberon revisit.. I mean.. rework. Has give me the idea to make him have a proper place in warframe.

Oberon pre-rework is very balanced, I felt like I'm just a normal human being not have any special abilities or way of life.

Oberon post-rework is the same but with more gimmick and multi-tasking, Renewal is likely to be his way of life but poor energy management is forcing me to use Rage.

I can live with that, Maybe I have to equip Phoenix Renewal that has warframe's sniper's cooldown (You know what I mean) on top of it.

Overall the rework is not change the way I play oberon but with more stuff to work with.

 

So It's seem like there is no way back now, Let's give him more works.

We have Hallowed Ground+Renewal that give us 200 armor at base, But here is the way this synergy could be done better.

If there is enemy on the HG, Casting renewal will give you 200 armor + armor base on that enemy's Health and Shield.

So not only It's make oberon slightly harder to kill, But It's make Oberon scale up in surviability.

You may see this is OP but here is the catch: The armor buff will only base on one single enemy that has the highest amount of Health/Shield.

So if you cast HG on a group of lv100 enemy, If there happen to have a heavy gunner then It will base scale base on that heavy gunner.

Even if It scale only with 1% of the heavy gunner's health. You will have bonus of 900+200 armor.

 

Thinking about the frame synergies.

With Chroma, Having the armor that scaled will greatly benefit his Vex armor's damage.

With Frost, Your snow globe will never be squishy at the late game content.

With Rhino, Scaling Iron skin.

With Nezha, Safe guard augment.

With anyframe, Welcome to anti-one shotting zone.

 

The only downside is you have to get your team stand on HG and if you are running out of energy, You have to tell your team to looking for another target and try to replenish the armor buff before the duration run out.

 

So, what is your opinion on this idea?

[Ardhanarishvara]

11 hours ago, Music4Therapy said:

Oberon is basically a squad friendly Chroma right now. He grants armor to himself and allies much like Chroma, but he also restores their hp while also providing light CC and possibly acts as a buffer.

What is preventing Oberon from being successful right now?

Well, the abilities that tie Chroma's kit together, his 2 and 3, both share the same desire to stack strength, duration, and survivability. Because of this, he can focus on those 3 things and function very well.

Oberon's abilities that tie his kit together are his 2, 3, and 4. Due to the fact Smite scales, he doesn't need to place emphasis on it for it to be effective: With str it deals more base damage and hits more targets, with less str the damage is more focused and the orbs pack more of a punch. His 2, 3, and 4 and the synergies between them all require different stats in order to work though, and because the success of one is tied to another he can't succeed without being able to make use of all 3 like his kit is designed to do.

Your understanding of Oberon immediately comes off as a very "on paper" understanding, as opposed to an "in practice" understanding. This in particular:

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If you don't build around his 4 you may as well have a Trinity in your group, who is capable of healing and providing DR many times better than Oberon. If you place heavy emphasis on his Iron Renewal and sacrifice Duration/Rng/Eff to do so, sure you have high personal survival but since you lack the Dur/Eff to share these benefits with allies which results in you being Chroma lite. 

...strikes me as not really understanding him at all. Or Trinity for that matter. Or Chroma. I've built for 205% power strength under ideal conditions, and the only stat suffering somewhat slightly is Range, which is down to 91%. Duration is up to 211%, and efficiency is 130%. +Rage. When I channel Renewal and allies are on Hallowed Ground, I immediately offer the team 411 armour, which is 50% damage reduction on average to around 85% of warframes due to how armor scaling's diminishing returns work, plus 82 hp/s regain.

Chroma cannot offer healing, only armour and, like Valkyr's armour bonus, scales off a warframe's base armour level, meaning you can stack all the power strength you like and it'll only turn 15 into 60, and ONLY WHILE AROUND CHROMA, unless you offer up a mod slot to making it last. Trinity can offer healing, but it's burst healing meaning you don't increase moment-to-moment survivability at all, you literally ONLY recover lost health when you NOTICE it getting low, or spam it habitually, but someone's going to fall through the cracks. Additionally, unless you build for Duration (something 95% of trinities never do because they want faster energy pulses from energy vampire because 95% of trinities don't realize immediately killing the enemy results in all pulses releasing simultaneously) you're not going to get a decent duration on that damage reduction. It's going to disappear immediately. And even if you DO build for duration, the bonus from Blessing only lasts something like 30s, even if it can hit 75% damage reduction. Again, that's nothing in the long-term.

My entire team has the damage reduction of anywhere between Atlas to Valkyr, and a health regeneration component 2-3 times as potent as what Nidus could offer IN ONE SPOT. You are going to be preventing a LOT of deaths passively, without having to actively watch and manage the individual health values of four different people.

This very same build allows me to put down 42.2 second Hallowed Ground. Hallowed Ground deals damage twice per second, and it has a 30% chance of inflicting confusion per hit, something that both temporarily staggers an enemy and then allows for the potential for them to target and be targeted by each other. Granted it "only" reaches 14.66 metres (.34 fewer than base) and Reckoning "only" reaches 13.65 metres (1.35 fewer than base), but that's more than enough to cover two separate choke points, and it lasts long enough to easily recover the energy cost.

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If Oberon were able to replace Rage, Efficiency, and Primed Flow with mods that strengthened his kit, he would be able to truly flourish without being overly powerful as he would then have range/dur/str/survivability to build around, how different players choose to split his stats around differing from player to player. Because right now needing literally everything is making him build around allowing his kit to function rather than allowing his kit to excel.

Very few 'frames don't use some kind of efficiency mod on them; expecting to be able to suggest that a 'frame that casts as often as Oberon or channels to teammates as much as Oberon does, don't use mods that reduce energy costs and help to recover energy extremely handily fitting his damage reduction/health regen is, well, I don't think it's... good to be able to expect to make that kind of suggestion. Again, it strikes me as coming from a place of not really understanding him very well at all, and trying to apply that limited understanding on paper rather than actually in practice and, ultimately, only further overemphasizes an energy problem that isn't as bad as people constantly claim and only crops up due to what I perceive as misuse and unrealistic expectations of his abilities.

Also:

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Edit: And that is why I propose the addition of an energy gaining mechanic. There have been many suggested here, whether its receiving energy for kills made on Hallowed Ground or the orbs Smite creates to create energy when they hit enemies. Some kind of mechanic is needed and that will allow him to both focus on strengthening his kit as proposed while also solving the energy problem he is currently having.

I'm getting a little tired of seeing suggestions for "energy gaining mechanics". It's overplayed at this point. Why isn't anyone suggesting "energy cost reduction mechanics"? For instance, making Reckoning cost 25% less when cast while standing on Hallowed Ground? Or making each additional target linked up to Renewal past the first cost 50% less to heal (or reduce energy cost per target the more targets are linked up, that's probably easier).

Enemies drop energy often enough for a sentinel with Vacuum to be more than enough to keep you topped up in general. Rage pairs incredibly well with your health regeneration and damage reduction. A Sahasa Kubrow, which is made far tankier thanks to both Oberon's passive and his kit, will dig up 75 energy every 10-15 seconds.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Ardhanarishvara

[Ardhanarishvara]

27 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

Because that's just delaying the inevetable. Imagine Nidus without energy gaining. That is where Oberon is right now.

I don't know what world you're living in, but wherever you are, I wouldn't wish anyone to be in a land where energy orbs don't exist and enemies don't attack you to replenish energy via Rage.

That you insist energy problems are inevitable strikes me as, well, apologies but at this point I must be rather blunt, outright incompetence. An uninformed build. Improper usage of abilities. EDIT: I apologize for my seeming hostility and apparent insults. My patience is much shorter in the morning, and this thread and beyond has been so inundated by what I perceive to be a minor issue that it's worn even thinner. The insults were uncalled-for.

From the perspective of someone who has actually been using Oberon consistently since his initial rework, buffing his energy pool to 200 alone would be more than enough to cover any energy issues he might suffer unless he runs into 2-3 Parasite Eximus. Anything beyond that is just pandering to people who don't want to do what it takes to manage his energy properly and just want to spam 4 forever.

Additionally: I take umbrage with your use of Nidus as an example. Only two of his abilities use energy, one of which is so integral to his passive effect reaching full potency and unlocking/providing ammunition for his other 2 abilities that it is absolutely necessary that he spam his 1 as much as he possibly can to actually reach his full power on a basic, mechanical level. Having energy regain at that point is an absolute must.

Oberon has no such limitations. There is nothing dictating that you cast abilities anywhere nearly as much as Nidus requires to make full use of his kit.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Ardhanarishvara
Apology.

[The_Grimmrock]

Saturdays Feedback

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[CuChulainnWD]

A reminder that Hallowed ground requires a slight elevation adjustement to cover those standing on crates or caskets in the HG zone, would not go amiss.

[Music4Therapy]

1 hour ago, Ardhanarishvara said:

Your understanding of Oberon immediately comes off as a very "on paper" understanding, as opposed to an "in practice" understanding. This in particular:

...strikes me as not really understanding him at all. Or Trinity for that matter. Or Chroma. I've built for 205% power strength under ideal conditions, and the only stat suffering somewhat slightly is Range, which is down to 91%. Duration is up to 211%, and efficiency is 130%. +Rage. When I channel Renewal and allies are on Hallowed Ground, I immediately offer the team 411 armour, which is 50% damage reduction on average to around 85% of warframes due to how armor scaling's diminishing returns work, plus 82 hp/s regain.

 

50% total DR from Oberon vs 75% DR was Trinity that stacks on top of their currently existing armor. Its not even close, Trinity is miles ahead in this regard, and thats okay. Oberon has CC, radiation, puncture, etc.... he has things that he can provide that she can't. She outclasses him by a mile in any organized group IF you don't have the range to make use of the radiation/puncture procs from his 1 and the cc from his 4.

 

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Chroma cannot offer healing, only armour and, like Valkyr's armour bonus, scales off a warframe's base armour level, meaning you can stack all the power strength you like and it'll only turn 15 into 60, and ONLY WHILE AROUND CHROMA, unless you offer up a mod slot to making it last.

I am very well aware of this, that is why I refer to Oberon as a squad friendly Chroma. Chroma brings very little to a squad outside of credit farming. However, unlike Oberon, he actually scales with armor via his Vex Armor. Oberon, instead of scaling with it like Valkyr/Chroma/Rhino/etc... do, is instead able to share it with allies.

 

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Trinity can offer healing, but it's burst healing meaning you don't increase moment-to-moment survivability at all, you literally ONLY recover lost health when you NOTICE it getting low, or spam it habitually, but someone's going to fall through the cracks. Additionally, unless you build for Duration (something 95% of trinities never do because they want faster energy pulses from energy vampire because 95% of trinities don't realize immediately killing the enemy results in all pulses releasing simultaneously) you're not going to get a decent duration on that damage reduction. It's going to disappear immediately. And even if you DO build for duration, the bonus from Blessing only lasts something like 30s, even if it can hit 75% damage reduction. Again, that's nothing in the long-term.

Trinity has better burst healing and *MUCH* better DR. Regardless of whether or not Trinity actually builds for Blessing is irrelevent: those that do outclass negative range Oberon's Iron Renewal. Also, its a sign that a frame that is already very damn good at keeping her squad alive doesn't even build that way. Taking damage isn't even a thing in organized groups as there is normally hard CC/Frost bubble/Volt Shields/etc... to protect you. Phoenix Renewal combined with his possible CC, buffing, and mass status procs is what puts Oberon ahead of a Blessing Trinity, not the raw damage mitigation that you suggest.

 

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My entire team has the damage reduction of anywhere between Atlas to Valkyr, and a health regeneration component 2-3 times as potent as what Nidus could offer IN ONE SPOT. You are going to be preventing a LOT of deaths passively, without having to actively watch and manage the individual health values of four different people.

This basically says that negative range Oberon is a watered down Blessing Trinity that doesn't need to pay attention to his allies' health pools. Again, Trinity's heal and DR is far better than Oberon's in an organized group, esp if the Trinity is playing optimally. In a pub where you have some dude running across the map not playing with the team? Sure Oberon wins there. His Reckoning is what allows him to strip enemies of armor, provide cover for your team, and safely revive downed allies. It is incredibly useful being able to knockdown a room of enemies so you can provide yourself/allies breathing room, its what sets Oberon apart.

 

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This very same build allows me to put down 42.2 second Hallowed Ground. Hallowed Ground deals damage twice per second, and it has a 30% chance of inflicting confusion per hit, something that both temporarily staggers an enemy and then allows for the potential for them to target and be targeted by each other. Granted it "only" reaches 14.66 metres (.34 fewer than base) and Reckoning "only" reaches 13.65 metres (1.35 fewer than base), but that's more than enough to cover two separate choke points, and it lasts long enough to easily recover the energy cost.

By running Overextended you are trashing your Range, Oberon's abilities (particularly his 4) already don't have the best range. I suggest getting rid of that in favor of more efficiency. If you need to move? Casting Hallowed Ground is that much cheaper. Need to provide cover for yourself/team? Reckoning is that much cheaper. Building duration over efficiency just makes you want to stand on your carpet for the full 40+ seconds, efficiency allows you to be mobile and use his abilities more often. I don't run into any energy issues running a 115% Duration, 170% efficiency, 160% rng, and 100% pwr str build. I also use Vitality, Rage, Natural Talent, and Phoenix Renewal. My healing may not be as strong, but I prevent more damage by being able to use my CC more often and more effectively. His smite spreading puncture procs alone is a 7 energy cost 35% reduction to enemy damage, 6 orbs, and the orbs each have a range of 20 meters. My Reckoning costs about as much to use as your Hallowed Ground if I find myself in a pinch. All the while I have near 100% uptime on Renewal on myself and allies due to its small .52 energy drain. It sucks tho when taking damage isn't an option because that is my only source of energy. And thats the problem I have, when I am no longer being shot at everything falls apart. And I don't want to toggle Renewal off because how difficult it is to get all 4 members of the squad together to reapply the buff. It bothers me how little I am unable to invest in the strength of my abilities because I can only focus on making his kit function fluidly, if I were able to just remove Rage and drop an Intensify in that slot or even a Transient Fortitude it'd be awesome. Hell, if I could also drop Fleeting too than I could have both Intensify and Transient Fortitude. That'd nearly double my power strength just with that simple energy gain mechanic alone. EDIT: My problem is that I am using ever efficiency mod in the game and Rage in order to make this work as well as it does, and I'm not just constantly spamming 4.

 

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Very few 'frames don't use some kind of efficiency mod on them; expecting to be able to suggest that a 'frame that casts as often as Oberon or channels to teammates as much as Oberon does, don't use mods that reduce energy costs and help to recover energy extremely handily fitting his damage reduction/health regen is, well, I don't think it's... good to be able to expect to make that kind of suggestion. Again, it strikes me as coming from a place of not really understanding him very well at all, and trying to apply that limited understanding on paper rather than actually in practice and, ultimately, only further overemphasizes an energy problem that isn't as bad as people constantly claim and only crops up due to what I perceive as misuse and unrealistic expectations of his abilities.

Not many frames don't have a trash stat, either. He literally wants to be in the positive in everything, including survivability. I can't think of another single frame who has every part of their kit so tied together AND needs every stat AND has slow cast times.

I can't think of a single frame aside from Oberon that can't be in the negative on 1 single stat and have it significantly effect everything it is that they do. Not only does he need to be at or near positive for rng, eff, dur, and str but he also wants Rage, many use Natural Talent due to his cast times, augment mods (which are really good, btw), and some sort of survivability whether its QT + PF or Vitality or Vigor or a combination of them. Not only does he want it all, he needs it all right now, which is an unfair restriction to have on his kit. EDIT: Of all the reworks since Saryn, I believe all of them have some form of energy gain or cost reduction in their kit aside from Volt, his is heavily duration based and doesn't mind having negative efficiency due to the nature of his kit. It seems DE is trying to lower our reliance on energy/health orbs slowly but surely.

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Also:

I'm getting a little tired of seeing suggestions for "energy gaining mechanics". It's overplayed at this point. Why isn't anyone suggesting "energy cost reduction mechanics"? For instance, making Reckoning cost 25% less when cast while standing on Hallowed Ground?

Enemies drop energy often enough for a sentinel with Vacuum to be more than enough to keep you topped up in general. Rage pairs incredibly well with your health regeneration and damage reduction. A Sahasa Kubrow, which is made far tankier thanks to both Oberon's passive and his kit, will dig up 75 energy every 10-15 seconds.

Reduction just delays the inevitable. I suggest the "Energy Drain per Projectile on Smite" change because many players feel as though raising str weakens their Smite and if they want to have a strong Smite they need to have negative str, this change would provide pro's and con's to positive and negative str Smite and would provide an interesting tradeoff in his kit.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Music4Therapy

[Ardhanarishvara]

I was never even particularly a fan of Oberon, mostly because I always viewed his kit as hinging on his 2 and his 3, while those ended up being the two abilities that were handled most poorly pre-rework. They were clunky and limited and made trying to make him work an entirely unenjoyable experience for me, but I was always optimistic of what he COULD be.

For me, his rework absolutely hinged on his 2 having a wider area of effect, and his 3 being channeled. Suffice it to say, I was extremely disappointed, depressed even, after the initial drop of his rework. His 2 was vastly improved, but I found his 3 to somehow feel even worse in every conceivable way. Changing his 3 to a channel completely flipped my impression of his rework and has certainly made him feel far more viable to me. It's entirely possible that I've just flipped so hard that I'm giving greater value to his abilities than should actually be done, but I would also like to note that it's possible for the opposite to be true for others - to be so convinced of his mediocrity that one does not give credit where it is due, and I would like everyone to be aware of that. It's not been even two weeks since his initial rework, and tweaks are still ongoing. We can't be 100% certain of our builds or our interpretations of how to use his abilities _{(even though everything I say is totally correct and everyone else is wrong)} and it's important to try everything we can to view every ability from every possible angle.

As far as I'm concerned, his niche has been cornered, now it's time to bring whatever's lacking up to snuff.

Here's a question for everyone:
Would Iron Renewal not be greatly improved if it wasn't dependent on casting AFTER Hallowed Ground? How about making it so that if under the effects of both Renewal and Hallowed Ground, Iron Renewal kicks in, no matter the order. The ability will begin ticking a duration once no longer under the effects or the other or both.

Are there any arguments against this?

[-Onyx-Phalian]

Should the videos created by Tactical Potato and Mogamu be posted here as well? 

[Music4Therapy]

6 minutes ago, Ardhanarishvara said:

Here's a question for everyone:
Would Iron Renewal not be greatly improved if it wasn't dependent on casting AFTER Hallowed Ground? How about making it so that if under the effects of both Renewal and Hallowed Ground, Iron Renewal kicks in, no matter the order. The ability will begin ticking a duration once no longer under the effects or the other or both.

Are there any arguments against this?

Yeah, as of now you can run around with Iron Renewal forever so long as you have the energy to do so. This would require allies to remain on his Hallowed Ground in order for their duration to not run out.

I like that right now we can keep the ability on-going and toggling it off triggers the duration.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Music4Therapy

[The_Grimmrock]

2 minutes ago, Phalian said:

Should the videos created by Tactical Potato and Mogamu be posted here as well? 

these videos are specifically collated from the reddit responses, and placed here as I am not a major youtuber, nor a content creator for Warframe, I think that Mogamu, Tactical Potato, Brozime, AGGP and others have enough of a following that DE is fairly likely to see their videos regardless, where this is literally just the content generated from the reddit warframe community, and not necessarily my personal opinion until the second video where I attempt to clearly define a workable set of tweaks to Oberon's kit based on said feedback. 

[-Onyx-Phalian]

1 minute ago, Grimmboski said:

these videos are specifically collated from the reddit responses, and placed here as I am not a major youtuber, nor a content creator for Warframe, I think that Mogamu, Tactical Potato, Brozime, AGGP and others have enough of a following that DE is fairly likely to see their videos regardless, where this is literally just the content generated from the reddit warframe community, and not necessarily my personal opinion until the second video where I attempt to clearly define a workable set of tweaks to Oberon's kit based on said feedback. 

I see. The videos did hit the nail on the head. Not 100% behind all of the ideas of how to fix him but I think all Oberon mains have agreed on what abilities need the most changing and his main problem areas. So at least it shows DE where to start looking. 

[Music4Therapy]

-Wanted this to have its own thread to discuss how other frames compare to him in his current state. Whereas the megathread is for Feedback on the rework, I want to have a discussion about where he stands currently-

 

In my opinion, Oberon is basically a squad friendly Chroma right now. He grants armor to himself and allies much like Chroma, but instead of scaling with said armor via Vex Armor he instead restores allies hp while also providing light CC and possibly acts as a buffer.

So where does he stand?

Well, the abilities that tie Chroma's kit together, his 2 and 3, both share the same desire to stack strength, duration, and survivability. Because of this, he can focus on those 3 things and function very well.

Oberon's abilities that tie his kit together are his 2, 3, and 4. Due to the fact Smite scales, he doesn't need to place emphasis on it for it to be effective: With str it deals more base damage and hits more targets, with less str the damage is more focused and the orbs pack more of a punch. His 2, 3, and 4 and the synergies between them all require different stats in order to work though, and because the success of one is tied to another he can't succeed without being able to make use of all 3 like his kit is designed to do.

If you don't build around his 4 you may as well have a Trinity in your group, who is capable of healing and providing DR many times better than Oberon. If you place heavy emphasis on his Iron Renewal and sacrifice Duration/Rng/Eff to do so, sure you have high personal survival but since you lack the Dur/Eff to share these benefits with allies which results in you being Chroma lite. 

If Oberon were able to replace Rage, Efficiency, and Primed Flow with mods that strengthened his kit, he would be able to truly flourish without being overly powerful as he would then have range/dur/str/survivability to build around, how different players choose to split his stats around differing from player to player. Because right now needing literally everything is making him build around allowing his kit to function rather than allowing his kit to excel.

That said, with the increased survivability he provides to party members, shieldgating being a thing in the near future, status/cc immunity, nice CC of his own, and the existence of Phoenix Renewal and Smite Infusion Oberon is a great addition to any pub group as a support and very appealing to solo players due to his combination of defense and cc.

 

TL;DR I love the rework, while I do agree the synergy in his kit was forced that doesn't matter to me. They were able to make him substantially stronger without changing too much about him. Not only is he better, but its extremely gratifying whenever I see Phoenix Renewal save someone's life. Its extremely gratifying having everyone gather around me because they want what I have to offer. A way to gain energy within his kit would be ideal, though and would go a long way towards making him not only more consistent but would allow him to really thrive.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Music4Therapy

[The_Grimmrock]

1 minute ago, Phalian said:

I see. The videos did hit the nail on the head. Not 100% behind all of the ideas of how to fix him but I think all Oberon mains have agreed on what abilities need the most changing and his main problem areas. So at least it shows DE where to start looking. 

If I can get people 75% of the way, then I think that's a pretty big success coming from so many different Ideas on what to do. a solid compromise is the best we can all hope for, and these were the closest I could get to getting everyone in without making Oberon as broken as some have appeared to want Oberon to be. This was never about making people who didnt like him before like him or love him, but rather to get him where he needs to be where his current kit, works at the end game, meaning the hour long mot survivals, solo, teams, raids and doesn't feel like a burden. 

[Chipputer]

I think this idea that you can't use his skills effectively without being on Hallowed Ground is fallacious and is born from people focusing too hard on the changes DE made instead of playing him in a manner similar to how they used to, but with keeping in mind the few buffs you're going to get from using him.

With 100% duration you can chuck down a simple Hallowed Ground, turn on Renewal, turn it back off and have a full 20 seconds of an armor buff that doesn't require your energy pool to be completely neutered in order to keep it running. Without Hallowed Ground you can simply use it as a burst heal for emergency situations-- the armor is good but the important part is that your allies are alive.

The same goes for Reckoning. Sure, you get a bit more when enemies are on Hallowed Ground, but the bulk of the usefulness of Reckoning is the snap CC with added confusion effect (anyone using it purely for the damage is silly).

 

The way Reworked Oberon plays is similar to a defensive frame but you're replacing things like a Frost bubble with a healing skill. You weren't intended to constantly throw Hallowed Ground down with you everywhere you go and the sooner you all break from this mind set the better. When you're in a good position to chokepoint the enemies, or you're defending something, then you toss down a bunch of H-Grounds and you use them as your base of operations. When that's not a good option you don't. The way people are thinking, currently, reminds me of all the people who just spam Frost bubbles as they run through levels because, "his bubble should be more mobile."

Do I think H-Ground and Renewal could still use a few tweaks? Heck yeah, I do. I still think H-Ground needs to be a full circle, instead of a semi-circle. I still think Renewal being an M-Prime styled ring is awful (I hate this manner of ability application). I'd really appreciate H-Ground being a toggle skill that is a PBAoE around Oberon, himself, acting more like an aura than anything else. The more I use the current iteration the more I wish it borrowed mechanics from Equinox's auras, where the more enemies/allies affected by it the faster it drained.

He's a bit energy hungry, I will agree, but I think that is fundamentally tied to a mindset that far too many players feel he should have his Renewal constantly toggled on, instead of using the residual buff that it gives to their advantage. I use Zenurik and a 150 energy pool and have zero issues. Occasionally I will switch to Madurai, to challenge myself, and I will still have far fewer issues than half of the people on this forum seem to claim that they have (and I'm still not convinced that they're not just mashing the 4 key with Renewal running). The only fixes I'd toss out are increasing his base armor and increasing his base energy and not much else.

[Music4Therapy]

6 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

He's a bit energy hungry, I will agree, but I think that is fundamentally tied to a mindset that far too many players feel he should have his Renewal constantly toggled on, instead of using the residual buff that it gives to their advantage. I use Zenurik and a 150 energy pool and have zero issues. Occasionally I will switch to Madurai, to challenge myself, and I will still have far fewer issues than half of the people on this forum seem to claim that they have (and I'm still not convinced that they're not just mashing the 4 key with Renewal running). The only fixes I'd toss out are increasing his base armor and increasing his base energy and not much else.

As someone that spends the majority of his game time in Mot, I have been able to take Oberon as far as near 90 minutes deep solo with the use of Zenurik (naramon is so broken)

That said, I don't run into energy problems until I can no longer rely on Rage because 1 shot = death. I also run with 115% dur, 160% rng, 170% eff, 100% str, Rage/Natural Talent/Vitality/Phoenix Renewal.

The reason why I have an issue with his energy is because his abilities are tied together in effectiveness. No other frame in the game needs every stat including survivability + the utility of Rage/Natural Talent. Are Rage and Natural Talent required? No, but his cast times (particularly on Reckoning) are long as hell and will result in him dying if he is stuck in them for too long and without Rage he has no way of sustaining his combos. All other combo based frames have energy gaining mechanics because the need for duration/rng/str to work together. There are frames that don't need to build for survivability. There are frames that don't need Rage or Natural Talent to not be stuck in animations or to sustain the use of their support abilities (allies can't benefit from Phoenix Renewal if Renewal isn't actively on them and draining energy) There are frames that can sacrifice rng, dur, str, or eff or a combination of the 4. Oberon. Needs. Everything. And thats the problem with his current kit, because he has such a need for everything you are building him to function rather than to excel. An energy gaining mechanic alone would allow me to drop Rage and/or an efficiency mod so I can throw on some much needed power strength, for example. Giving him an energy gaining mechanic would allow him more build paths and would indirectly buff the rest of his kit.

[Ardhanarishvara]

 

5 hours ago, Music4Therapy said:

Yeah, as of now you can run around with Iron Renewal forever so long as you have the energy to do so. This would require allies to remain on his Hallowed Ground in order for their duration to not run out.

I like that right now we can keep the ability on-going and toggling it off triggers the duration.

My Iron Renewal lasts 42.2 seconds at 411 armour. Are you telling me they can't bullet jump back to the Hallowed Ground every 40 seconds to top up?

Still, I would PREFER for a situation where standing on Hallowed Ground with Renewal off keeps the buff, and standing off Hallowed Ground with Renewal on keeps the buff, but I'm not entirely sure DE will be entirely for that, given what my clanmates refer to _{(but I don't COMPLETELY agree with)} as a "every buff needs to come with a negative" mentality.

 

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4 hours ago, MarrikBroom said:

 

I'm of the opinion the armor values Iron Renewal gives aren't 'broken' but do give squishier frames a nice armor boost and thus more survivability. You want 'base valkyr' armor you need to go all in on power strength which ultimately means gimping your build's effeciancy which limits how long you can make high armor casters. What de-coupling Iron Renewal from Hallowed Ground would give is consistency since you're going off of RENEWAL'S range, not Hallowed Ground's range. I would of course like Renewal to have a little more range, but at the same time I think it's 'fine' right now and completely workable if Iron Renewal is innately part of the ability.

I'm not even sure what the counter argument could be... so I genuinly want someone to point it out as I don't want to act like I don't have a blindspot or five going on and all I'm seeing from de-coupling ability co-dependancy is pure upside and a far more useable Oberon.

Allow me to lay out my build for you.

AURA: Growing Power.

MODS: Intensify, Energy Conversion, Streamline, Rage, Continuity, Narrow Minded (R8), Stretch, Vitality

I've found my abilities to be perfectly potent with a perfectly acceptable range. My energy drain from Renewal per second is 0.66. All I need to do is get an energy orb, then attack until I apply a status effect and I can apply a 82hp/s health regen, with a 411 armour bonus if standing on Hallowed Ground, with a 42.2 second duration if my Renewal runs out. My Hallowed Ground reaches 14.66 metres and lasts 42.2 seconds with a status chance of 30% each tick, two ticks per second, lasting so long that I often go out and lay out another two well before it runs out. My Reckoning reaches 13.65 metres.

I admit that I need to have picked up an Energy Orb and applied a Status Effect somewhat recently to reach full potency, but that's hardly an issue as my Hallowed Grounds last for quite some time and I use Reckoning/Smite somewhat rarely.

I'm also using a Vaykor Sydon with Guardian Derision to augment my kit, allowing me a frankly massive blind range. It allows quite significant damage reduction on top of my Renewal while essentially FORCING enemies to give me energy and opening them up for finishers. _{(Admittedly I made a thread in the Weapons section of this subforum to buff Vaykor Sydon because I do think it could be more useful still.)}

I have found this loadout to be perfectly acceptable for the vast majority of encounters I have played with. Sorties included. It only fails in situations where any other warframe would also fail, that being going into level 40 orokin derelict defence and having to contend with 4 parasite eximus simultaneously, though thankfully running into a Mutalist Carrier's toxin cloud typically counteracts the energy drain for a short time.

For me, being able to apply Iron Renewal without having to herd everyone onto the rug and THEN get my buffs to power strength so I can cast Renewal would be a massive, massive boon. Given that I typically have 2-3 Sacred Tatami Mats out at any time and the buff lasts 40+ seconds, I doubt my teammates would be particularly constrained to just standing on one carpet around me forever.

 

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5 hours ago, Music4Therapy said:

50% total DR from Oberon vs 75% DR was Trinity that stacks on top of their currently existing armor. Its not even close, Trinity is miles ahead in this regard, and thats okay. Oberon has CC, radiation, puncture, etc.... he has things that he can provide that she can't. She outclasses him by a mile in any organized group IF you don't have the range to make use of the radiation/puncture procs from his 1 and the cc from his 4.

Trinity has better burst healing and *MUCH* better DR. Regardless of whether or not Trinity actually builds for Blessing is irrelevent: those that do outclass negative range Oberon's Iron Renewal. Also, its a sign that a frame that is already very damn good at keeping her squad alive doesn't even build that way. Taking damage isn't even a thing in organized groups as there is normally hard CC/Frost bubble/Volt Shields/etc... to protect you. Phoenix Renewal combined with his possible CC, buffing, and mass status procs is what puts Oberon ahead of a Blessing Trinity, not the raw damage mitigation that you suggest.

This basically says that negative range Oberon is a watered down Blessing Trinity that doesn't need to pay attention to his allies' health pools. Again, Trinity's heal and DR is far better than Oberon's in an organized group, esp if the Trinity is playing optimally. In a pub where you have some dude running across the map not playing with the team? Sure Oberon wins there. His Reckoning is what allows him to strip enemies of armor, provide cover for your team, and safely revive downed allies. It is incredibly useful being able to knockdown a room of enemies so you can provide yourself/allies breathing room, its what sets Oberon apart.

First, no, it is NOT irrelevant whether or not Trinity actually builds for blessing. Nobody does so, and for very good reason. The heal is typically more than enough on its own and building for optimal duration requires getting an arcane helmet for hundreds of plat from another player and sacrificing the range that your energy vampire can offer energy in, and on top of both of those, the duration is absolutely pitiful and not worth mentioning even if you DO build for duration. This is not something worth discussing, as it is, as I have said with so many other things in this thread, purely an on-paper interpretation rather than an actually practical interpretation.

Second, Oberon's puncture is absolutely worthless. It lasts 6 seconds and is only 30%, something that will not make any kind of significant dent past level 50. It's not even guaranteed that every projectile will seek a different target. Both of these points you've brought up are something you can only make note of on paper, and are completely worthless when actually put into practice.

I believe that you are very strongly underestimating the raw damage mitigation an Oberon offers. Even if it's not as potent against burst damage, it very effectively deals with sporadic damage and even a small lapse in taking damage can very quickly recover every bit of damage that had been lost. Oberon's CC is a bonus to this kit, and is not something that should be focused on exclusively.

The only time I have ever, ever seen a Duration Trinity is in ONE run of Law of Retribution. If she doesn't show up in the 99% of the rest of the game, what's the point in making note of her at all?

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By running Overextended you are trashing your Range, Oberon's abilities (particularly his 4) already don't have the best range. I suggest getting rid of that in favor of more efficiency. If you need to move? Casting Hallowed Ground is that much cheaper. Need to provide cover for yourself/team? Reckoning is that much cheaper. Building duration over efficiency just makes you want to stand on your carpet for the full 40+ seconds, efficiency allows you to be mobile and use his abilities more often. I don't run into any energy issues running a 115% Duration, 170% efficiency, 160% rng, and 100% pwr str build. I also use Vitality, Rage, Natural Talent, and Phoenix Renewal. My healing may not be as strong, but I prevent more damage by being able to use my CC more often and more effectively. His smite spreading puncture procs alone is a 7 energy cost 35% reduction to enemy damage, 6 orbs, and the orbs each have a range of 20 meters. My Reckoning costs about as much to use as your Hallowed Ground if I find myself in a pinch. All the while I have near 100% uptime on Renewal on myself and allies due to its small .52 energy drain. It sucks tho when taking damage isn't an option because that is my only source of energy. And thats the problem I have, when I am no longer being shot at everything falls apart. And I don't want to toggle Renewal off because how difficult it is to get all 4 members of the squad together to reapply the buff. It bothers me how little I am unable to invest in the strength of my abilities because I can only focus on making his kit function fluidly, if I were able to just remove Rage and drop an Intensify in that slot or even a Transient Fortitude it'd be awesome. Hell, if I could also drop Fleeting too than I could have both Intensify and Transient Fortitude. That'd nearly double my power strength just with that simple energy gain mechanic alone. EDIT: My problem is that I am using ever efficiency mod in the game and Rage in order to make this work as well as it does, and I'm not just constantly spamming 4.

Not many frames don't have a trash stat, either. He literally wants to be in the positive in everything, including survivability. I can't think of another single frame who has every part of their kit so tied together AND needs every stat AND has slow cast times.
I can't think of a single frame aside from Oberon that can't be in the negative on 1 single stat and have it significantly effect everything it is that they do. Not only does he need to be at or near positive for rng, eff, dur, and str but he also wants Rage, many use Natural Talent due to his cast times, augment mods (which are really good, btw), and some sort of survivability whether its QT + PF or Vitality or Vigor or a combination of them. Not only does he want it all, he needs it all right now, which is an unfair restriction to have on his kit. EDIT: Of all the reworks since Saryn, I believe all of them have some form of energy gain or cost reduction in their kit aside from Volt, his is heavily duration based and doesn't mind having negative efficiency due to the nature of his kit. It seems DE is trying to lower our reliance on energy/health orbs slowly but surely.

I have never in my life seen a build I disagree with more than the one I am looking at right now. Natural Talent? Are you serious? I find it difficult to focus on anything else when you're wasting a slot on FASTER CASTING SPEED of all stats, one of the most worthless mods in the entire game. It's becoming increasingly clear that your perspective is coming from one with a wildly inefficient build, and an overvaluing of stats and qualities that ultimately make very little difference. Reckoning's cast time does not matter in the slightest, because whoever might be affected by it is affected by it IMMEDIATELY. Smite's a one-handed ability and can be done while doing so many other things. The issue here is that you need that efficiency because your duration is so poor that you need to recast Hallowed Ground CONSTANTLY.

Your build is, I am trying not to be too insulting here, actually really painful to even look at.

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Reduction just delays the inevitable. I suggest the "Energy Drain per Projectile on Smite" change because many players feel as though raising str weakens their Smite and if they want to have a strong Smite they need to have negative str, this change would provide pro's and con's to positive and negative str Smite and would provide an interesting tradeoff in his kit.

It has become increasingly clear exactly why you continue to call it inevitable. It is because your build is probably one of the worst builds an Oberon could possibly have. Ever. It is clearly built exclusively for spamming his most costly ability on a regular basis because you are trying to armour strip reliably, and in doing so are missing some very fundamental points about Oberon, and it is bogged down by exceptionally poor duration at that.

Renewal costs less upkeep when healing teammates when you build Power Strength, because they get healed to full more quickly as a result and take less damage. You don't need to use corrupted mods like blind range or transient fortitude to achieve this, either.

[(PSN)CaptainIMalik]

3 hours ago, MarrikBroom said:

I found this while doing image surge for some oddball Oberon comic I'd spotted awhile back and wanted to show a friend. And look, since we haveattention focused on Oberon Right Now I felt it a good idea to put this here in hopes this is what the Primed version will look like since... 

 

Damn Son. Just... Damn. DE confirm this is the design for Oberon Prime and the money will literally leap out of my wallet and fly to your office Right Now.

When was that. The confirmation I mean. 

[Music4Therapy]

21 minutes ago, Ardhanarishvara said:

It has become increasingly clear exactly why you continue to call it inevitable. It is because your build is probably one of the worst builds an Oberon could possibly have. Ever. It is clearly built exclusively for spamming his most costly ability on a regular basis because you are trying to armour strip reliably, and in doing so are missing some very fundamental points about Oberon, and it is bogged down by exceptionally poor duration at that.

Renewal costs less upkeep when healing teammates when you build Power Strength, because they get healed to full more quickly as a result and take less damage. You don't need to use corrupted mods like blind range or transient fortitude to achieve this, either.

Say what you want but I've been able to take this build as deep as 90 minutes solo in a Mot Survival with Zenurik as my focus school. You keep talking about how you can tank with Oberon in your sorties, you'll get 1 shot by a crewman in the content I spend my time in and is why I place more value on constant CC than you do evidently.

I spend most my playtime in Mot. I speak from an endless perspective. Be stuck in casting animation with an ability with mediocre range = death.

btw, 115% duration is poor? I have a 23 second HG and my energy drain on my Renewal is only .52 (cheaper than yours to keep up on myself and allies). Duration is only good for 2 things on Oberon: Keeping up his HG and the timer on his Iron Renewal buff AFTER YOU toggle off renewal, you can keep Renewal/Iron Renewal going forever so long as you have the energy to do so (again, my cost is only .52). So the difference between my efficiency build and your duration build is that your HG lasts for 20 more seconds, but your abilities are much more expensive to cast, have significantly less range and the HG won't ever even reach half that duration in Mot (or in any corrupted/corpus mission, for that matter) due to the existence of Nullifiers.

 

EDIT: I feel like star chart roamers/people that just do sortie and endless people speak different languages. Like, someone saying "omg I'm as tanky as a naked Valkyr and have hp regen!" I'm just thinking to myself, "Sweet, what is your hp regen accomplishing that life steal can't more effectively? How far can a naked Valkyr go in survival before she gets trashed?" <--- Not meant to be an insult, its just 2 highly contrasting gameplay styles and content.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Music4Therapy