Trade Toxicity is a Problem

[(PSN)QuintusScorpius]

  As a preface, while I do think that the warframe community is generally helpful and unusually nice compared to other online games, I have been encountering something that I believe to be somewhat detrimental to the gameplay experience and especially that of new or casual-semi casual players.

Like the title suggests, I'm talking about trade toxicity. 

 Let me give a few examples so we know exactly what I mean here, and why I think things like this should be a reportable offense under something such as say "Aggressive Conduct".

•Player makes an especially low trade offer to someone posting "PMO", receives usually an insult for offering so low

  -I have had some of my clan members ask me about price ranges for items specifically because they were treated like this, and it has happened to me before when making an offer slightly under the normal price range for an item.

•Seller messages back a rejected buy offer being passive aggressive or a general troll.

  -So I have a couple examples for this one from personal experience. One occasion I saw someone selling arcanes, but they articulated the items they were selling in an odd way with no conjunctions making it seem like they were using an adjective as a noun, but I wasn't sure so I sent them a message asking if that is what they meant. They responded with a no, so I explained my confusion and went on my way, however, a few minutes later they messaged me back saying something along the lines of "By the way, everyone else understood what I meant the first time 'friend' :)". I was obviously extremely mad about this.

  Other examples include but are not limited to

-Telling the prospective buyer that they sold the item for a higher price usually accompanied by an insult or "gg"

-Belittling prospective buyers for "not knowing" the general price range of items

  Now while I understand that Warframe trading operates as a free market, I'm pretty sure the "free" part isn't supposed to mean "free to be a donkeyfissure for no mutually induced reason" since harassment and other obvious community-dissolving behaviors are considered reportable offenses. Even if this isn't something that becomes a reportable offense, I'd like to at least encourage people not to do it. Seriously. If there aren't enough people playing the game then there also aren't enough people for you to sell anything to, and running into people like these while trading really kills the joy in the game sometimes.

So why do I think this is detrimental to the new player experience? Imagine a scenario, a player finally made their way to say MR8 and have been fancying themselves a shiny new _____ Prime. They've spent the last few weeks grinding out trade chat, void fissures, endless missions, and finally have the platinum to buy it. Alternatively they may have decided to purchase platinum with some of their (probably) hard earned money. They go into trade chat looking for _____ Prime, but nobody bites. A few minutes in they see someone posting a sale offer. They message the person, but are a bit apprehensive about paying full price if they can spare some of the platinum so they can maybe shorten the grind for their next item. Thus begins any of the problems listed above, and while the first few times it happens they may just dislike trade chat in general, keep this up, and how much will they continue to like the game in general? 

Games with especially toxic communities shrink over time, and while warframe isn't in much danger of dying off presently, I think we should address this preemptively since inter-community problems paired with displeasure in the many gameplay bugs seems like a surefire recipe for disaster.  

Most of the clan mates reporting some degree of trade related problems to me have coincidentally gone inactive, and the ones that didn't became less active. In the times I have spoken with them, they seem to have more gripes with the game than before, and I could only speculate why. 

 

Am I referencing isolated cases? Do you think this is a problem as well? Please, do share your thoughts and experiences. I'd like to know if these kinds of problems are a common occurrence and if anyone else thinks we've been due for some changes. My only reference are some more sociable traders and my clan which represent a relatively small portion of the active community. 

Edited May 7, 2017 by (PS4)QuintusScorpius

[RealisticName]

happens to me sometimes, I PM them, they say offer. I say a considerably low price, they start ignoring me

[SurrealEdge]

What you mentioned is a very common practice, from my time with finding specific items on PC. In some of the examples you've given, all that can be really done is to report the especially egregious players. While it's not a solution for new players, I can suggest that finding a clan and finding people in the clan that are willing to help them make the choices when it comes to dealing with the types of people you mentioned.

This isn't just limited to Warframe, as other games with similar set ups do have people that phase out all others that want to get something at a lower going rate than what the current market finds acceptable.

[MrM1]

I do not know what's up with the PS4 trades, but I can confirm that I've never encountered someone insulting anyone, in the PC trades (Germany). Maybe it's just the country, maybe I was just lucky to always meet the friendly people.

However, even if something like that happens, it often has a reason. If the seller tries to sell something for the full price and someone tries to spare a few Plat, I can understand why the seller may be toxic. Imagine he has been grinding himself to get that _____ Prime, he expects to get, eg, 100 Plat. And out of nowhere someone comes up with an offer of just 90. Yeah, these 10 are no problem, but if this happens 10 times? The seller lost 100 Plat. You get what I mean? That's how business works (even in games), matey.

So, what are you trying to achieve? An option to report people for being toxic? I'd bet that you have not played the real salt-games out there. Something like CS:GO, LoL and so on. Because if you did have played those, you'd know that the communities there are really toxic, Warframe, in comparison to them, is heaven. And those games do have options to report people for being toxic, but since the whole community is toxic, you only waste your time by reporting them. My point?- Even if we would have that option, it won't improve the trading experience. People will stay like that. I mean, if someone got reported quite often for that, what would you, as a dev, do to them? Ban them from trade chat? They'll come back to the trade chat anyway.

[(PSN)HSomDevil]

27 minutes ago, (PS4)QuintusScorpius said:

I explained my confusion and went on my way, however, a few minutes later they messaged me back saying something along the lines of "By the way, everyone else understood what I meant the first time 'friend' :)". I was obviously extremely mad about this.

 

28 minutes ago, (PS4)QuintusScorpius said:

running into people like these while trading really kills the joy in the game sometimes

You don't think there could be a slight overreaction on your part?

There are lot worse examples out there... just ignore and move on.

[CeePee]

There are definitely some bad apples in the trade channel who don't have the faintest idea of haggling. Since it's a chat based system the first price is never the one you should pay straight up, try to wiggle the price around a bit.

My recent encounter was with a person trying to buy Maiming Strike - obviously since I'm the one selling I try to get the best price out of it, said the price was 600p (price is generally around 550) and in return I got toxicity and a record-breaking ignore time of 2 minutes.

I did sell the mod to somebody else for the same 550p price so not my loss.

[Tali]

That is the general reason i dont like trading and that the chat UI only makes it even more confusing with overlapping messages. And then there is those that just say "offer" instead of replying with a price.

[O.O_]

2 minutes ago, CeePee said:

There are definitely some bad apples in the trade channel who don't have the faintest idea of haggling. Since it's a chat based system the first price is never the one you should pay straight up, try to wiggle the price around a bit.

My recent encounter was with a person trying to buy Maiming Strike - obviously since I'm the one selling I try to get the best price out of it, said the price was 600p (price is generally around 550) and in return I got toxicity and a record-breaking ignore time of 2 minutes.

I did sell the mod to somebody else for the same 550p price so not my loss.

You call that "some bad apples"? That is how 99% of my trade-attempts look like, lol.

[O.O_]

7 minutes ago, Aeon66 said:

and that the chat UI only makes it even more confusing with overlapping messages

Turn of inline private messages in chat options.

[LSG501]

I've had it from a buyer, wanted to buy at a stupidly low price and I just said no it was the price I offered it for, I stuck at the price I was asking which was already below market value.  The problem is partly down to the system and partly due to the fact that rivens and relics have pretty much devalued most items in trade these days.... which is likely what DE wanted in the first place because if you want plat you either need to spend ages doing trade or you need to buy it.

With the way trade chat is now it's not a good experience and it's why we need a 'trade store' rather than trade chat (it's been asked for for ages)... while the new options on trade chat are going to help it's near impossible to read it half the time due to the speed it goes and pretty much being riven spam... then there's text colour choices (not exactly great for long term viewing) and line spacing which could help a little if it was increased just a little to split the wall of text up.

IMO DE just needs to simply link up with warframe.market (they have a simple system in place for trade) and build an ingame interface where it shows what people are after with their offer and what people are selling with their price... then add in a simple 'buy it now' or 'sell it now' button on the table so you can purchase/sell at the price being listed and we have no need for physical interaction during trade which removes all hostility etc between players.

[-Darvo-]

I have it the other way around. I've been trading rivens for a while now and honestly, I get random insults from people due to my use of superior "adjectives" or pricing. Like i want my advert to look like that and sell this mod for this price, if you aren't gonna buy it, stfu. I usually shrug them off, or argue with them to the point where they'll be forced to ignore me (feels gooooooood). Buying items on the other hand, seems fairly smooth to me.

[Zagrax]

When people say "PMO" and I hit anywhere under the going rate, typically people say "lol" and put me on ignore rather than just counteroffer the 5-10P they wanted more and lose out on a sale. Haggling is dead.

[ALEX_IV]

That's is called interacting with people. Yes, some people are a nuisance to interact with. But what do you want to do about it?

You will get people like that everywhere, in the game, or in normal life. Better learn to just ignore and let go.

[(PSN)QuintusScorpius]

1 hour ago, MrM1 said:

I do not know what's up with the PS4 trades, but I can confirm that I've never encountered someone insulting anyone, in the PC trades (Germany). Maybe it's just the country, maybe I was just lucky to always meet the friendly people.

However, even if something like that happens, it often has a reason. If the seller tries to sell something for the full price and someone tries to spare a few Plat, I can understand why the seller may be toxic. Imagine he has been grinding himself to get that _____ Prime, he expects to get, eg, 100 Plat. And out of nowhere someone comes up with an offer of just 90. Yeah, these 10 are no problem, but if this happens 10 times? The seller lost 100 Plat. You get what I mean? That's how business works (even in games), matey.

So, what are you trying to achieve? An option to report people for being toxic? I'd bet that you have not played the real salt-games out there. Something like CS:GO, LoL and so on. Because if you did have played those, you'd know that the communities there are really toxic, Warframe, in comparison to them, is heaven. And those games do have options to report people for being toxic, but since the whole community is toxic, you only waste your time by reporting them. My point?- Even if we would have that option, it won't improve the trading experience. People will stay like that. I mean, if someone got reported quite often for that, what would you, as a dev, do to them? Ban them from trade chat? They'll come back to the trade chat anyway.

Well actually, I have played CS: GO competitive for around half a year, Smite competitive for around half a year as well post LoL shift, and a fair number of RPGs with some pretty questionable followings like Aura Kingdom and FF RR to name a few. It should be noted though that these are competitive e-sports done in a high stress environment and people get pretty heated about that. I get that. What part of trading is competitive like that though? I don't really agree on your point of it being comparable. If we were talking Ranked Conclave then I could see your point.

-Not specifically addressed to anyone

  A couple of people mentioned that moving on and dealing with people is just a part of life and you have to learn how to. Yes I completely agree, but what I'm talking about is the general health of the game. In life you don't walk away from it because the only other option is to not live, so you learn to deal with things because that's one of your few options. Warframe? You can just walk away from it and be done, which is my point. If the game will continue to grow I don't think that we should be endorsing that kind of behavior, and I'm mostly posting this to put some attention to it. My personal examples are purely so it can be understood what I'm referencing when I say I think this is a problem, not to cry "poor me I don't like dealing with people". Please understand that.

Edited May 7, 2017 by (PS4)QuintusScorpius

[Tali]

1 hour ago, O.O_ said:

Turn of inline private messages in chat options.

oh i was not aware that, thanks.

[Hemmo67]

55 minutes ago, Zagrax said:

When people say "PMO" and I hit anywhere under the going rate, typically people say "lol" and put me on ignore rather than just counteroffer the 5-10P they wanted more and lose out on a sale. Haggling is dead.

when i see pmo i just ask, you must have price in mind

if they say it we go from there if not, well let's just say someone else will appreciate my plat =)

[(PSN)Elvenbane]

It's very easy to avoid these issues. I've been playing/trading for years without problems. List a price when you are selling and when buying stick with sellers that list a price.

If you want to haggle, be reasonable with regard to the asking price or don't make an offer. Don't make unnecessary snippy replies. Don't expect everyone to know what something is 'worth' and be patient.

There are plenty of reasonable people in trade. DE can't enforce human behavior and nothing you've mentioned warrents wasting supports time.

[(XBOX)rocketstar31]

6 hours ago, Zagrax said:

When people say "PMO" and I hit anywhere under the going rate, typically people say "lol" and put me on ignore rather than just counteroffer the 5-10P they wanted more and lose out on a sale. Haggling is dead.

 

 

It's a shame people can't go down a few plat to help someone out. Once I tried buying something for the 29p I had built up over the last 2 weeks (don't judge). The price was 30p but I was so poor I offered to throw in an energy siphon, some prime parts AND help with a few missions. I mean, I suppose I could've got that 1p from a helpful stranger, but what frustrated me was the seller's complete ability to lower the price, EVEN after I offered him all that stuff, which in hindsight would probably have been worth 30p. I mean, I get that he might've thought I was just being a #$&(%, but he still could've accepted the other stuff to make the 1p up. Thankfully, I managed to buy it from another guy for 29p, without having to give up my parts or aura. 

Edited May 7, 2017 by (XB1)rocketstar31

[(PSN)Elvenbane]

37 minutes ago, (Xbox One)rocketstar31 said:

It's a shame people can't go down a few plat to help someone out. Once I tried buying something for the 29p I had built up over the last 2 weeks (don't judge). The price was 30p but I was so poor I offered to throw in an energy siphon, some prime parts AND help with a few missions. I mean, I suppose I could've got that 1p from a helpful stranger, but what frustrated me was the seller's complete ability to lower the price, EVEN after I offered him all that stuff, which in hindsight would probably have been worth 30p. I mean, I get that he might've thought I was just being a #$&(%, but he still could've accepted the other stuff to make the 1p up. Thankfully, I managed to buy it from another guy for 29p, without having to give up my parts or aura. 

That seller didn't owe you anything, this is also a perfect example of only seeing things from your own perspective. Maybe the seller needed exactly 30p for something and knows they'll be able to get it in 1 transaction, why should they inconvenience themselves? Maybe they like having their plat balance as a multiple of 10, we don't know.

The additional stuff you offered might be worth 0 to that seller, if they've played for a while they'll have stacks of aura mods, prime junk, and don't need your help with anything. If you think it's worth something you sell it! You could also have posted WTB [thing] 25p and probably found a no hassle seller.

You did eventually end up getting it from someone else for 29p, that's what you are supposed to do, so I say things are working fine.

[(XBOX)ThermalStone]

Trade chat is fine.  I have dozens of sucessful, polite transactions for every problem.  How to avoid all these problems:

1.  Don't buy or sell things with PMO.  You are inviting ridiculous offers from cheapskates and ripoff artists.

2.  Do put a reasonable Plat amount at the end of your trade chat posts.  You waste a lot less time on trade chat if you know what things are actually worth and start off in the ball park.

3.  Don't make or respond to strange requests or ridiculous offers.  If someone lowballs or insults you, or starts making the trade more trouble than it's worth, why waste your time?  

4.  Do be brief and polite.  Inform your trade partner of any extra steps or delays in the trade process and thank them at the completion of the trade.  

In all the examples in this thread, I would have stopped communication much earlier.  For the OP, as soon as it was obvious the arcane seller didn't understand you.  For the Maiming Strike guy, as soon as you got back the insulting responses.  For the 29p buyer, I would have stopped you long before your offer got so complicated and wasted all my time.  Sorry, but "I only have 29p" sounds to a seller like a dishonest attempt to save one Plat so you can pat yourself on the back later.

You don't always have to get the last word in on the Internet and you aren't going to change anyone's mind in a trade chat.  Better to avoid the frustration.

Edited May 7, 2017 by (XB1)ThermalStone

[ashrah]

lot my trades is end up with friendship...had maybe 2 player who are been arogant..

[Tyrian3k]

Well, I put everything that isn't a Riven onto Warframe Market and just wait. People usually just take it for the price I set there without problem.

That said, I've not had that many encounters with toxic people at all.

[Sloan441]

6 hours ago, RealisticName said:

happens to me sometimes, I PM them, they say offer. I say a considerably low price, they start ignoring me

Don't really care. This is how bargaining is done. I'm not going to give you what you're asking, unless you're way low.

I don't have time to stroke prickly sellers or buyers.

If you're selling, I won't necessary lowball you, but I have a rough idea of what things are worth and I'm going to go with the lower end of the spectrum. Counter-offer if you think it's too low. I'm good with that and if it's not too far out of line, hey, I'll bite.

If you're buying, I have no patience with tire kickers (either here or in RL). What I'm asking is what I want. It won't be grotesquely inflated, since I don't have time to let something float in the sales ether for weeks at a time (no AH here, after all). Make an offer. It it's within my tolerance zone (which is around 10-20% of what I'm asking), it's yours. Simple as that.

The main thing is I get mostly what I want with minimal time investment, since if I'm haunting trade chat, I'm not playing the game and that's where I really want to be. Reasonable cost in a reasonable time period will move the merchandise every time.

[(XBOX)rocketstar31]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Elvenbane said:

That seller didn't owe you anything, this is also a perfect example of only seeing things from your own perspective. Maybe the seller needed exactly 30p for something and knows they'll be able to get it in 1 transaction, why should they inconvenience themselves? Maybe they like having their plat balance as a multiple of 10, we don't know.

The additional stuff you offered might be worth 0 to that seller, if they've played for a while they'll have stacks of aura mods, prime junk, and don't need your help with anything. If you think it's worth something you sell it! You could also have posted WTB [thing] 25p and probably found a no hassle seller.

You did eventually end up getting it from someone else for 29p, that's what you are supposed to do, so I say things are working fine.

 

I suppose I do see why I was wrong to do that now. (I really shouldn't have done that) but at the time I was a MR2, and I wanted a Lex P Set bad. I really knew nothing about trading at the time. :( 

[(PSN)supernova_girlie]

I try not to argue with people about trades. If I don't like their offer, I type "nty" for "no, thank you" and I keep it stepping. On the other hand, as a rule, if someone is selling something I want, I don't haggle with them, I give them what they want. I do this because I know that this person will continue to play the game and, I feel, I have a very logical sense of what each item is worth.

On PS4, the players have no clue what the value of an item should be. They don't take into consideration how many prime parts it takes to actually make enough ducats in order to purchase a primed mod from Baro. Then they want maxed out primed mods for practically nothing! Baro charges 385 ducats for Primed Pressure Point. If you divide 385 by 15 you get 26.5. That's 27 prime parts! He charges 300,000 credits as well. Now if you max out the mod, you're charged 40,920 Endo and 1,976,436 credits! Let's tally this all up:

27 prime parts (for me, each of these parts equal 5 minutes, because I do survival fissures, so that is 2.25 hours!)

2,276,436 credits (that's like a 3-day credit booster,40p, if you play at least 4 hours per day)

40,920 Endo (that's 10.5 sorties, assuming you get the 4000 endo each time. In the market 1000Endo = 100p, this comes to over 4000p!)

You probably could get 5p for each of those prime parts, maybe even 10p in some circumstances. Being conservative and sticking with 5p, that's already 135p. That should be your base/unranked price! Otherwise, just sell the prime parts for 5p each and call it a day! If we max the mod, it should not be less than 2000p! I feel we should give a 50% discount off of items in which we normally could purchase in the market. So I have cut in half the cost of the endo.

My point is that on PS4, players throw a hissy fit if you even try to charge a modest 250p for a maxed out primed mod! The lesson is: don't sell maxed out primed mods!

PS4 trade has to be the worst out of all platforms and I think it might actually kill the game on the platform. After you've gotten everything in the game there are only a few things left to do and one of them is farming prime parts in order to make plat and buy cosmetics or save for next update. Now I don't even get excited when I get the best item on the relic to drop, because I know that there are players actively trolling to lower prices. By this I mean, I've seen players offer to sell Vauban set for 20p, when you reply they say they've sold it already and ten minutes later they are still trying to sell Vauban set for 20p. An hour later, the same person is trying to buy a Vauban set for 20p.

TL,DR: Don't be rude in trade. Consider the true value of the item you're selling or buying. Don't sell high value items until PS4 trade community gets its common sense back. Keep a close eye on players that are selling items for extremely low prices. Support Warframe and buy plat from market to avoid headaches.