Why Nidus Prime will NEVER be a thing

[NeithanDiniem]

5 hours ago, SolidWulf said:

>Nothing there even alludes to her skills changing or being different than they were before the experimentation

> 'Forged in the labs of the Zanuka project, the original Valkyr was subject to cruel experiments, leaving her scarred, angry and frighteningly adept at killing.'

>leaving her scarred, angry and frighteningly adept at killing

If you actually read it (and understand English grammar), it specifically states that the experiments left her adept at killing. Which implies she was different before the experiments. There is no getting around this.

 

 

This is to both of you, the Gersemi skin was specifically referred to as the "pre-Corpus captured Valkyr, unmodified, OG version" on the devstream, it is the same exact Valkyr.

At 15:40

 

Being adept at killing is in no way even close to stating that she would need different skills. At all. So try reading up on English a little bit yourself there and see what else it could mean. If someone becomes adept at something, it simply means they were not as adept before. It does not mean they have to use completely different methods of fighting. You can in fact get better at something and it is used more effectively and with more force. Anger can hone one's combat abilities, just as much as hatred against your enemy. Try looking up what a Valkyrie was known for. They were incredibly good fighters. Valkyr was based off of those in theme, meaning her original form, whatever it was, was already capable as a fighter. Add a solid hatred against an enemy and anger towards them and think about what that might do for something that is already good at killing. It would improve them, ergo: make them "frighteningly adept at killing."

Yes, it is the exact same Valkyr, Literally, the exact same in function as the Prime and the post-experimentation. The Prime was the original frame, period. All others are derivatives of the Prime. Until DE steps forward and canonizes some form of proto frame for every Warframe, the Prime is the oldest version. It is how DE has done every prime in the game thus far. So if a Prime Valkyr has a certain set of moves and it is the same as the other versions, then the skills did not change. The Gersemi skin Valkyr was the mass produced version, captured and altered, before it was recovered. That is all.

2 hours ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

You do understand that the Corpus tried to reverse engineer Gersemi Valkyr to be as much like the Orokin version as their tech would allow, right? 

People with this argument want to utterly dismiss that Gersemi might be the product of Tenno limitations and artistry, and that "Corpus" Valkyr may be the altered Tenno Blueprint with the Gersemi cosmetics stripped to "Bare Bones" and applied to Zanuka (not a coincidence) so that they could try and recreate her in the image of their Orokin Gods to the extent that Corpus Tech allowed.

Retcon or not, it makes sense as at least possible.

Nidus seems like an alt-strain (let's call it the Helminth Strain) Prototype to me that is resistance to the control that the standard Hive-minded Infestation exerts on everything it infects.  It may be a Tenno-DNA/infestation hybrid.

The Rhino Codex certainly points to the sleeping Tenno creating a type of Hive-mind Nullifier bubble or calming influence.  The question is "How?" And "Why?"

So Nidus is much like a wolf.  Dangerous and untamed yet loyal to the Helminth pack.

I believe Warframe "armor" is as much about containment as it is mass production and protection.

I've always held the belief that one of our dark secrets is that Warframes are potential carriers; they are not only harbingers of death but vectors of infection and corruption when wounded.

So taming, weaponizing, and mass-producing  the wolf along with minimizing it's ability to spread led to Orokinized Primes.

Nidus--->Excaliber----->all other Warframes.

Excalibur was the first, stated clearly and concisely. Nidus as the entity we know with the powers that make him Nidus did not exist until after Excalibur. Infestation that was altered to perfection (as confirmed by DE when explaining what the Helminth infestation strain is) that was used to create Excalibur and eventually all other Warframes certainly had to exist before, but Nidus as the frame and master of that infestation form did not.

Edited August 29, 2017 by NeithanDiniem

[SolidJames]

2 hours ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Being adept at killing is in no way even close to stating that she would need different skills. At all. So try reading up on English a little bit yourself there and see what else it could mean. If someone becomes adept at something, it simply means they were not as adept before. It does not mean they have to use completely different methods of fighting. You can in fact get better at something and it is used more effectively and with more force. Anger can hone one's combat abilities, just as much as hatred against your enemy. Try looking up what a Valkyrie was known for. They were incredibly good fighters. Valkyr was based off of those in theme, meaning her original form, whatever it was, was already capable as a fighter. Add a solid hatred against an enemy and anger towards them and think about what that might do for something that is already good at killing. It would improve them, ergo: make them "frighteningly adept at killing."

Yes, it is the exact same Valkyr, Literally, the exact same in function as the Prime and the post-experimentation. The Prime was the original frame, period. All others are derivatives of the Prime. Until DE steps forward and canonizes some form of proto frame for every Warframe, the Prime is the oldest version. It is how DE has done every prime in the game thus far. So if a Prime Valkyr has a certain set of moves and it is the same as the other versions, then the skills did not change. The Gersemi skin Valkyr was the mass produced version, captured and altered, before it was recovered. That is all.

>If someone becomes adept at something, it simply means they were not as adept before

I never said that Valkyr wasn't adept at killing or needs different skills, that's a strawman. Try actually attacking my real argument instead of misrepresenting it to make it easier on yourself. I'm saying that her description specifically states that the experiments changed her, I said that she was different, yet Valkyr and Valkyr Prime are no different from each other. Valkyr Prime is just as angry and adept at killing as Valkyr is and vice versa. In fact, we could argue she's better at it. Though we could say that's because primes are just inherently better, but even so. There's literally no point in mentioning it in the description if she wasn't changed by the experiment. That isn't to say they'd be entirely different, she'd still be a warrior, yes. But many other frames are warriors as well, and none of them scream like Valkyr (except Rhino during his charge). Valkyr Prime was dropped on our collective laps and is entirely identical to Valkyr in abilities and how she uses them. Is this for gameplay reasons? Probably. But it simply doesn't fit together.

Primes and non-primes existed together at the same time during the Orokin era. Every single questframe (Inaros, Harrow, Mirage, etc) shows us this, as does the fact when we wake up in the beginning of the game from our millennia long cryo-sleep, we're in a non-prime warframe. Unless you think spacemom woke us up, changed our warframe, and then put us back to sleep. Either way the non-primes have been around just as long, they're just not the ones made by the Orokin. EDIT: The non-primes were probably still made by the Orokin, no evidence that they didn't either.

We also have no proof that the Primes were first before the non-primes, that's just conjecture. It says Excalibur was the first, it doesn't say Excalibur Prime was the first. Even the prime trailers do this same thing, Ballas says "Saryn" not Saryn Prime, and so forth. Except for Valkyr, ironically, he doesn't mention her by name in that video. We know, as I said before, that the non-primes existed during the Orokin era as well. It wouldn't make sense for them to neglect to use the prime prefix when talking about the primes, especially given how much effort the Orokin went to crafting the primes.

The primes definitely could have been first, sure, but there's no actual evidence for this yet. In fact, we could also argue the opposite. In Rhino Prime's codex entry, the uncontrolled Rhino uses iron skin. Yet it is described as flowing like mercury, not liquid gold (at the time of Rhino Primes release and between March 5th, 2014 and May 6th 2016, Rhino Prime's Iron Skin was always gold. It was only after May 6th 2016, 2 years after its release, that allowed its Iron Skin to be customized by the energy color). Which means that the Rhino in the story is likely not a prime. Flimsy evidence, sure, but there's not any more evidence for the opposite.

Edited August 30, 2017 by SolidWulf

[NeithanDiniem]

1 minute ago, SolidWulf said:

>If someone becomes adept at something, it simply means they were not as adept before

I never said that Valkyr wasn't adept at killing or needs different skills, that's a strawman. Try actually attacking my real argument instead of misrepresenting it to make it easier on yourself. I'm saying that her description specifically states that the experiments changed her, I said that she was different, yet Valkyr and Valkyr Prime are no different from each other. Valkyr Prime is just as angry and adept at killing as Valkyr is and vice versa. In fact, we could argue she's better at it. Though we could say that's because primes are just inherently better, but even so. There's literally no point in mentioning it in the description if she wasn't changed by the experiment. That isn't to say they'd be entirely different, she'd still be a warrior, yes. But many other frames are warriors as well, and none of them scream like Valkyr (except Rhino during his charge). Valkyr Prime was dropped on our collective laps and is entirely identical to Valkyr in abilities and how she uses them. Is this for gameplay reasons? Probably. But it simply doesn't fit together.

Primes and non-primes existed together at the same time during the Orokin era. Every single questframe (Inaros, Harrow, Mirage, etc) shows us this, as does the fact when we wake up in the beginning of the game from our millennia long cryo-sleep, we're in a non-prime warframe. Unless you think spacemom woke us up, changed our warframe, and then put us back to sleep. Either way the non-primes have been around just as long, they're just not the ones made by the Orokin.

We also have no proof that the Primes were first before the non-primes, that's just conjecture. It says Excalibur was the first, it doesn't say Excalibur Prime was the first. Even the prime trailers do this same thing, Ballas says "Saryn" not Saryn Prime, and so forth. Except for Valkyr, ironically, he doesn't mention her by name in that video. We know, as I said before, that the non-primes existed during the Orokin era as well. It wouldn't make sense for them to neglect to use the prime prefix when talking about the primes, especially given how much effort the Orokin went to crafting the primes.

The primes definitely could have been first, sure, but there's no actual evidence for this yet. In fact, we could also argue the opposite. In Rhino Prime's codex entry, the uncontrolled Rhino uses iron skin. Yet it is described as flowing like mercury, not liquid gold (at the time of Rhino Primes release and between March 5th, 2014 and May 6th 2016, Rhino Prime's Iron Skin was always gold. It was only after May 6th 2016, 2 years after its release, that allowed its Iron Skin to be customized by the energy color). Which means that the Rhino in the story is likely not a prime. Flimsy evidence, sure, but there's not any more evidence for the opposite.

Its to prevent DE from having the Prime be outclassed by the non-prime, for starters, and it is to prevent DE from having to do two balance passes for one frame when it comes to reviewing skills effects and numbers. Yes, it is a game mechanic in that stance, and people really have no major grounds to stand on to be upset about it.

The reason why Primes are considered to be the first is because they are the ones built using Orokin components. It would make no sense for the Orokin, who are to a fault obsessed with gold and their own god complex deism, to not use Orokin components or their iconic theme they apply to every aspect of their directly controlled empire. It would make no sense for them to identify a frame as a Prime then if they were not making other versions, to them, Saryn Prime was just "Saryn," Dakra Prime was just "Dakra" Excalibur Prime was just "Excalibur." In fact, the Orokin never identify things as "Primes" at all, which begs the question if "Prime" is something used to identify Orokin-based technology by the survivors of the Orokin empire. We have no canonization as to when the non-primes were created, which considering the difference in style and simplification of function of the frames it very much is reminiscent of the Tenno's style compared to the Orokin's style. I honestly would not be surprised if DE announced that the non-primes were only created after the fall of the Orokin.

The uncontrolled Rhino was not "Rhino" at that point. It was not a Warframe. It was a prototype infested unit they were developing in an attempt to perfect their failed Infestation they unleashed against the Sentients and coincidentally themselves. It was probably of the same strain of infestation as the Helminth strain. Also, DE did not have the means to allow the golden color to be recolorable and be reflective. Mechanically the game engine could not allow that. It was only after PBR tech was added to the engine was it possible. It was also the time when DE really began to differentiate the Primes from the non-prime frames, something they have thankfully embraced fully now, so DE making the Prime have gold coloration was a huge step towards making the frame have a uniquely different appearance from its non-prime form. Since the change to be recolorable was made was not done as some form of evolution of the Frame or the game, the change then has to be considered retroactively canon as always having been the case where it could change color according to the desires of the Tenno controlling the frame and how said frame looks. Its the same as when DE released the Liset and completely changed the starmap. It was then retroactively always that way when it comes to the story of the game. Same goes for when a boss or a frame gets a touch-up, they were retroactively always that as long as DE doesn't actively make a deal about the change, as we saw with Ambulas.

[SolidJames]

28 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Its to prevent DE from having the Prime be outclassed by the non-prime, for starters, and it is to prevent DE from having to do two balance passes for one frame when it comes to reviewing skills effects and numbers. Yes, it is a game mechanic in that stance, and people really have no major grounds to stand on to be upset about it.

The reason why Primes are considered to be the first is because they are the ones built using Orokin components. It would make no sense for the Orokin, who are to a fault obsessed with gold and their own god complex deism, to not use Orokin components or their iconic theme they apply to every aspect of their directly controlled empire. It would make no sense for them to identify a frame as a Prime then if they were not making other versions, to them, Saryn Prime was just "Saryn," Dakra Prime was just "Dakra" Excalibur Prime was just "Excalibur." In fact, the Orokin never identify things as "Primes" at all, which begs the question if "Prime" is something used to identify Orokin-based technology by the survivors of the Orokin empire. We have no canonization as to when the non-primes were created, which considering the difference in style and simplification of function of the frames it very much is reminiscent of the Tenno's style compared to the Orokin's style. I honestly would not be surprised if DE announced that the non-primes were only created after the fall of the Orokin.

The uncontrolled Rhino was not "Rhino" at that point. It was not a Warframe. It was a prototype infested unit they were developing in an attempt to perfect their failed Infestation they unleashed against the Sentients and coincidentally themselves. It was probably of the same strain of infestation as the Helminth strain. Also, DE did not have the means to allow the golden color to be recolorable and be reflective. Mechanically the game engine could not allow that. It was only after PBR tech was added to the engine was it possible. It was also the time when DE really began to differentiate the Primes from the non-prime frames, something they have thankfully embraced fully now, so DE making the Prime have gold coloration was a huge step towards making the frame have a uniquely different appearance from its non-prime form. Since the change to be recolorable was made was not done as some form of evolution of the Frame or the game, the change then has to be considered retroactively canon as always having been the case where it could change color according to the desires of the Tenno controlling the frame and how said frame looks. Its the same as when DE released the Liset and completely changed the starmap. It was then retroactively always that way when it comes to the story of the game. Same goes for when a boss or a frame gets a touch-up, they were retroactively always that as long as DE doesn't actively make a deal about the change, as we saw with Ambulas.

The idea that the term prime is a modern day prefix for Orokin things is plausible, sure. But I reiterate, non-primes did exist in the old days for the reasons I stated above. The parts we get from Inaros' quest, for example, are non-prime. But that warframe (the exact one we rebuild) fought the Orokin, referred to as "Golden Skymen" during the quest. Non-primes aren't modern. To me, the non-primes were the Orokin's desperate early attempts, and then as they begun to win the war against the Sentients and Infested, they went to making their usual gaudy stuff.

>The uncontrolled Rhino was not "Rhino" at that point. It was not a Warframe.

Plausible, but ultimately still conjecture.

Regardless of the game limitations, when they wrote that story, Rhino Prime's iron skin was gold and it isn't logical to assume that they wrote it with the intention of changing this 2 years later.

[NeithanDiniem]

Just now, SolidWulf said:

The idea that the term prime is a modern day prefix for Orokin things is plausible, sure. But I reiterate, non-primes did exist in the old days for the reasons I stated above. The parts we get from Inaros' quest, for example, are non-prime. But that warframe (the exact one we rebuild) fought the Orokin, referred to as "Golden Skymen" during the quest. Non-primes aren't modern. To me, the non-primes were the Orokin's desperate early attempts, and then as they begun to win the war against the Sentients and Infested, they went to making their usual gaudy stuff.

>The uncontrolled Rhino was not "Rhino" at that point. It was not a Warframe.

Plausible, but ultimately still conjecture.

Regardless of the game limitations, when they wrote that story, Rhino Prime's iron skin was gold and it isn't logical to assume that they wrote it with the intention of changing this 2 years later.

The parts you get are non prime quite possibly because you cannot replicate the Orokin parts that made up the frame, and thus have to fill in the gaps, or in the most basic explanation you get a non-prime because DE isn't going to just give you a prime for doing a basic quest. Likewise, your thought on what the non-primes are is just as much conjecture.

The infested creature was very much not a Warframe at that point. it is impossible for it to be. The Orokin at that point did not know the survivors of the Zariman could control the infested creature. They discover that the survivors can in the codex entry. Since they only just discover it, they would have no reason to develop a thing that can protect something else that is going to be controlled by a third thing. Thus, there was no frame built to channel the void energies of the Tenno who was controlling the infested golem. That means: no Warframe. It was the basic component, the primordial soup, that eventually would become a Warframe. There is no conjecture here when the Devs have fully clarified that aspect of the lore.

[SolidJames]

4 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

The parts you get are non prime quite possibly because you cannot replicate the Orokin parts that made up the frame, and thus have to fill in the gaps, or in the most basic explanation you get a non-prime because DE isn't going to just give you a prime for doing a basic quest. Likewise, your thought on what the non-primes are is just as much conjecture.

The infested creature was very much not a Warframe at that point. it is impossible for it to be. The Orokin at that point did not know the survivors of the Zariman could control the infested creature. They discover that the survivors can in the codex entry. Since they only just discover it, they would have no reason to develop a thing that can protect something else that is going to be controlled by a third thing. Thus, there was no frame built to channel the void energies of the Tenno who was controlling the infested golem. That means: no Warframe. It was the basic component, the primordial soup, that eventually would become a Warframe. There is no conjecture here when the Devs have fully clarified that aspect of the lore.

 

You might have a hypothesis except for the thing you keep ignoring, when we wake up from cyro-sleep, we're in a non-prime frame. You can say it's for game balance and economy reasons, but that doesn't mean we can ignore it in the lore.

Fair enough regarding the Rhino Prime codex. It was after all just a flimsy argument to begin with and I stated as such just to make a point about how little we actually know for sure.

[NeithanDiniem]

Just now, SolidWulf said:

 

You might have a hypothesis except for the thing you keep ignoring, when we wake up from cyro-sleep, we're in a non-prime frame. You can say it's for game balance and economy reasons, but that doesn't mean we can ignore it in the lore.

Fair enough regarding the Rhino Prime codex. It was after all just a flimsy argument to begin with and I stated as such just to make a point about how little we actually know for sure.

We woke up in non primes, yes, but we also did not immediately get put in cryosleep the moment we slaughtered the Orokin elite. You forget that the Tenno had to take time to hunt down the military leaders of the Orokin as well as deal with the Infestation outbreak. We also developed a council to direct the Tenno, and through that we developed a few of our own Primes while we still had the knowledge to do so. Knowledge, however, was lost. Lotus also was still at the time following her directive to destroy the Tenno after she dealt with the Orokin, of whom military leaders would be required to be killed before her task was complete. She could very well have been the spearhead behind us donning non-prime frames before cryosleep, and possibly even developing non primes. Remember we also research non-prime frames that we can use because we do not have the technology to build the true primes, just look at any of the dojo frames for that. Lastly, you have forgotten that the game story is played from a first person perspective, in that we are the ones that experience these things, not every Tenno in the game story. We, the first that woke and survived, were the one that spearheaded the awakening of the other Tenno. We were the one that rose up against Vor, handled the Jackal, destroyed Alad V's Zanuka prototype. We reconnected the Tenno's personal solar rails. We were the one that discovered the secret of Lua. How we personally woke up is not able to be used as a guide for how every Tenno in the game story awoke. We personally may have been in a non-prime frame, but that cant be used to say that they all did.

[SolidJames]

12 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

We woke up in non primes, yes, but we also did not immediately get put in cryosleep the moment we slaughtered the Orokin elite. You forget that the Tenno had to take time to hunt down the military leaders of the Orokin as well as deal with the Infestation outbreak. We also developed a council to direct the Tenno, and through that we developed a few of our own Primes while we still had the knowledge to do so. Knowledge, however, was lost. Lotus also was still at the time following her directive to destroy the Tenno after she dealt with the Orokin, of whom military leaders would be required to be killed before her task was complete. She could very well have been the spearhead behind us donning non-prime frames before cryosleep, and possibly even developing non primes. Remember we also research non-prime frames that we can use because we do not have the technology to build the true primes, just look at any of the dojo frames for that. Lastly, you have forgotten that the game story is played from a first person perspective, in that we are the ones that experience these things, not every Tenno in the game story. We, the first that woke and survived, were the one that spearheaded the awakening of the other Tenno. We were the one that rose up against Vor, handled the Jackal, destroyed Alad V's Zanuka prototype. We reconnected the Tenno's personal solar rails. We were the one that discovered the secret of Lua. How we personally woke up is not able to be used as a guide for how every Tenno in the game story awoke. We personally may have been in a non-prime frame, but that cant be used to say that they all did.

>You forget that the Tenno had to take time to hunt down the military leaders of the Orokin

>Lotus also was still at the time following her directive to destroy the Tenno after she dealt with the Orokin, of whom military leaders would be required to be killed before her task was complete

Where's your source for this? It's certainly not the Natah quest. All it said was she was supposed to kill the Tenno after the Orokin were defeated, never says anything about Orokin military leaders. The only bits of lore we have about the Tenno betraying the Orokin comes from the Stalker Codex, and Inaros' quest (which was likely an isolated case of betrayal, given the Stalker's Codex entry.)

 

>as well as deal with the Infestation outbreak

They were dealing with the infested before they betrayed the Orokin, the infested backfired on the Orokin (as our Operator says ingame), which means the Infested were fighting their former Orokin masters. If the Tenno had already destroyed the Orokin, there'd be no comment about the weapon backfiring on them. Given how the Sentients turned every weapon the Orokin had against them, it is logical to propose it was the Sentients who broke the Orokin's control over the Infestation hive mind.

>We also developed a council to direct the Tenno

There's no evidence of when the council was created, could have been before they betrayed the Orokin. Just because they served the Orokin that doesn't mean they don't have their own hierarchy.

>Knowledge, however, was lost

Yes. When our memories faded during cryo-sleep.

"Preserved in cryopods for centuries, the Tenno now awaken to a new war, fighting and resisting warring factions as the sole bearers of the Orokin-created Warframes. While the memories of the Tenno have faded over time, their mastery of guns, blades, and Warframe exo-armor has not."

>How we personally woke up is not able to be used as a guide for how every Tenno in the game story awoke.

Correct, however given that it's our only frame of reference, we have no proof to the contrary.

[NeithanDiniem]

Just now, SolidWulf said:

>You forget that the Tenno had to take time to hunt down the military leaders of the Orokin

>Lotus also was still at the time following her directive to destroy the Tenno after she dealt with the Orokin, of whom military leaders would be required to be killed before her task was complete

Where's your source for this? It's certainly not the Natah quest. All it said was she was supposed to kill the Tenno after the Orokin were defeated, never says anything about Orokin military leaders. The only bits of lore we have about the Tenno betraying the Orokin comes from the Stalker Codex, and Inaros' quest (which was likely an isolated case of betrayal, given the Stalker's Codex entry.)

 

>as well as deal with the Infestation outbreak

They were dealing with the infested before they betrayed the Orokin, the infested backfired on the Orokin (as our Operator says ingame), which means the Infested were fighting their former Orokin masters. If the Tenno had already destroyed the Orokin, there'd be no comment about the weapon backfiring on them. Given how the Sentients turned every weapon the Orokin had against them, it is logical to propose it was the Sentients who broke the Orokin's control over the Infestation hive mind.

>We also developed a council to direct the Tenno

There's no evidence of when the council was created, could have been before they betrayed the Orokin. Just because they served the Orokin that doesn't mean they don't have their own hierarchy.

>Knowledge, however, was lost

Yes. When our memories faded during cryo-sleep.

"Preserved in cryopods for centuries, the Tenno now awaken to a new war, fighting and resisting warring factions as the sole bearers of the Orokin-created Warframes. While the memories of the Tenno have faded over time, their mastery of guns, blades, and Warframe exo-armor has not."

>How we personally woke up is not able to be used as a guide for how every Tenno in the game story awoke.

Correct, however given that it's our only frame of reference, we have no proof to the contrary.

The military leaders of the empire would have been able to reestablish control if they were not taken out. This is true of any empire state. The military leaders were the ones in control of enough aspects of the empire that even without the head they would be able to wrest control back. Thus in order to destroy the Orokin empire and eliminate the threat they represented to the sentients, the military leaders would had to have been taken out. Any one of them could have rebuilt it. This would be further indicated by those military leaders that did survive; the Queens. Had the leaders not been hunted, the survival of an Orokin capable of Continuity would not have been a surprise to anyone, which is not the case here.

I never said the infestation outbreak took place after the empire fell. The outbreak is still very much capable of being able to be defeated after the empire's fall and the outbreak still being considered as turning on the empire. The Orokin were at war with the Sentients, who were on the verge of destroying the Orokin. The Orokin did not have the means to fight it off, they had to develop the Warframes and train them enough to fight back. Then they fought back until they were able to finally cut off the connection between the two star systems. Following that, the events at the Outer Terminus went down, so the Orokin would not have had the time to take out the infestation. It was still being used as a weapon against the Sentients, as seen with the Orokin military ships with infested bioweapons on them, one of which became Lephantis. Likewise we know the Tenno were available after the empire's destruction because of the existence of the council, which could not have existed during the time of the empire.

I never said the knowledge was lost before the Tenno were put in cryosleep

nor can we prove that they all awoke that way, so no one can definitively make any statement that is using that as a foundation.

[SolidJames]

6 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

The military leaders of the empire would have been able to reestablish control if they were not taken out. This is true of any empire state. The military leaders were the ones in control of enough aspects of the empire that even without the head they would be able to wrest control back. Thus in order to destroy the Orokin empire and eliminate the threat they represented to the sentients, the military leaders would had to have been taken out. Any one of them could have rebuilt it. This would be further indicated by those military leaders that did survive; the Queens. Had the leaders not been hunted, the survival of an Orokin capable of Continuity would not have been a surprise to anyone, which is not the case here.

 

So basically what you're saying is that it's your headcanon fanfiction. Alright well this conversation has played out its course to the end.

[Campaigner]

What are you talking about? The Nidus BP was called a relic of the Old War by either Ergo or Nef (I can't remember which) during the final Index wager. The Myconian people simply found it and were using it to survive. Ergo then offered it to you in exchange for helping them retrieve their children.

 

EDIT: Just looked up my recording of the quest.

Nef Anyo: "You have nothing to wager that interests me."

Ergo Glast: "Hah, the Myconians do. An Old War relic will be our wager. In a way, a product of the Void, something you have more than Passing interest for, am I right?"

Nef Anyo: "Don't kid yourself... I... What? It's disguesting. It's... beautiful! Those colonists would wager this?! Don't those idiots realize how much this is worth?

 

Translation: "Get rekt; Nidus Prime is coming."

Edited August 30, 2017 by Campaigner

[Orabell]

18 hours ago, (Xbox One)Solargeo said:

I believe he was being sarcastic. 

Could be, the way I red it was he being sarcastic about that Nova (as Nidus) does't qualify as prime material but still got primed. 

[Condeangel]

23 hours ago, moose2142 said:

Remember the liset is supposed to be a ship from the old days as well right? It even has a prime version. 
So why is there a door there that ONLY nidus can open initially, speaking strictly about pre space aids on everyone days.

We never see the liset interior. What we see is the Orbiter. Think of the orbiter as the main ship, that always stays in the space, and the Liset as the ship used to deploy ourselves, more agile and small. Thats why there is no difference in the interiors when you change the landing craft. And the liset would be way small to have all the things the orbiter has inside.

And the nidus door.. that requires an explanation that we well get at long term. DE has said that that part of the lore is now on stand by, waiting for PoE and The sacrifice arrivals first. What i think is sure, is that helminth has control of that door. Thats for sure. So maybe, until he/it sensed a greater form of "infestation" than the normal warframes, he was somehow asleep, or hibernating (that thing was there at the same time as ordis, as it is said to be a "essential part" or something like that in the orbiter), and could not open the door, or is a "safe" mechanism so he couldnt grow or attack the operator. But we will have to wait for the answers to that

[NeithanDiniem]

13 hours ago, SolidWulf said:

 

So basically what you're saying is that it's your headcanon fanfiction. Alright well this conversation has played out its course to the end.

Considering Lotus was shocked that an Orokin survived and became the leaders of the Grineer, and those leaders were capable of Continuity, the only thing that gave the Orokin command their immortality and power, no it is not headcanon. The queens from what we know about the lore were military leaders in some form, Lotus being shocked some survived shows that they must have been hunted down. Other bits of lore related to the queens showed that the military was in a scramble after the events of outer terminus, with their leaders trying to restore order. If those individuals were still around after outer terminus and not hunted down, then Lotus would not have been surprised to see that two Orokin survived. Its basic logic here.

[Kaotyke]

10 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Considering Lotus was shocked that an Orokin survived and became the leaders of the Grineer, and those leaders were capable of Continuity, the only thing that gave the Orokin command their immortality and power, no it is not headcanon. The queens from what we know about the lore were military leaders in some form, Lotus being shocked some survived shows that they must have been hunted down. Other bits of lore related to the queens showed that the military was in a scramble after the events of outer terminus, with their leaders trying to restore order. If those individuals were still around after outer terminus and not hunted down, then Lotus would not have been surprised to see that two Orokin survived. Its basic logic here.

She showed no reaction to the Queens being Orokin, she didnt even bring it up at all! Her only reaction was that the Queens were a fabrication of Grineer Command.

In fact, I dont think she was ever told so much as "Hey, I found out the Queens are Orokin, crazy isnt it?"

So, yes. It IS headcannon untill we get Lotus talking about the Queens' origins.

[(XBOX)Hundo8180]

On 08/06/2017 at 4:36 PM, (PS4)Ch1b1N1njaGam1ng said:

If prime tech was still known we wouldnt have "Original" variants of weapons.

The prime versions are considered as the "originals" it's the non prime versions that are recreations of the prime ones. And for primes that don't have non prime versions (reaper prime, Dakra prime e.t.c), that means that they were never recreated after the fall of the orokin.

[Fluff-E-Kitty]

I think more then likely his "prime" will have diffrent visual aspects. More like a juggernaut or ancient. But then again, he also might have prime parts inside him or jutting out form him.

Kind of assume some sort of frame existed as a scafold to build it form the tissue, so that will probibly be the prime version.

 

 

inbefor his prime was 1 shild.

[GrayArchon]

17 hours ago, NeithanDiniem said:

The military leaders of the empire would have been able to reestablish control if they were not taken out. This is true of any empire state. The military leaders were the ones in control of enough aspects of the empire that even without the head they would be able to wrest control back. Thus in order to destroy the Orokin empire and eliminate the threat they represented to the sentients, the military leaders would had to have been taken out. Any one of them could have rebuilt it. This would be further indicated by those military leaders that did survive; the Queens. Had the leaders not been hunted, the survival of an Orokin capable of Continuity would not have been a surprise to anyone, which is not the case here.

The Arid Eviscerator and Guardsman synthesis entries show that most, if not all, Orokin technology was controlled through "gene locks". Individuals in the Orokin hierarchy cannot rise to a higher position just because it's vacant. With the Orokin leadership taken out, access to technology and infrastructure was lost forever. So this supposition that the Tenno had to spend time hunting down the last remnants of Orokin hierarchy and extinguishing them is not supported by lore. The Queens, despite being Orokin, were not able to access most Orokin technology, thus why they are ruling over an empire of dilapidated clones instead of robots, spectres, and Void. They don't even look Orokin.

"Likewise we know the Tenno were available after the empire's destruction because of the existence of the council, which could not have existed during the time of the empire."

Also doesn't jive with lore. We know from the conversation with the Lotus at the end of the Second Dream that the Tenno had internal hierarchy and structure in the form of the Five Schools. Nothing stops them from having a ruling Council (which would have presumably taken direction from the Orokin leadership).

Your hypotheses are logical given a lack of information, I will admit, but we have some information on this time period, and it contradicts you.

Edited August 30, 2017 by GrayArchon
added second part

[Kabiemitts]

On ‎29‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 0:50 PM, mcdoo said:

Some frames should be Umbra due to Lore and others Prime...due to Lore. Game lore is important for stories and quests to remain consistent. While some of us just enjoy game play, the story holds more for others. Umbra Nidus. Indeed. Umbra Octavia. Of course. Umbra Titania. Duh. Umbra Harrow. etc. If a frame has a current prime, sans Excalibur, they should not get the umbra treatment. Keep something separate and dont over saturate the field of frames. I dont need a Frost Prime and Umbra Frost. 

as he said, what if the umbra is something the orokin are making now? with new technology, or coming with the orokin savagers in plains of eidolon something like umbra tech is found?

[Rivalles]

On 6/8/2017 at 4:25 PM, (PS4)Ch1b1N1njaGam1ng said:

We all love primes. Trinity Prime, Frost Prime, Valkyr Prime and SO much more! However people are more wanting of Nidus to be a prime frame, however I will explain why that will NOT happen.

 

The reason why is: It wont make sense in the lore.

 

Think about it, Nidus was acquired from Ergo Glast after The Glast Gambit quest when he gives us a Myconian artifact which was used to understand the Infested better.

 

Lets rephrase that. Nidus was made after the events of The Glast Gambit meaning he didnt exist when the Orokin were still around. Also the artifact was Myconian NOT Orokin meaning they couldn't have made nidus before the collapse.

 

But I'm gonna throw the towel in here. I just KNOW there's gonna be someone who will counter this claim.

 

(Also as a heads up I DON'T have a distain for Nidus I personally Love the frame. Its just that I'm loyal to the games lore and I don't wanna see it being a jumbled mess. So please don't say I'm hating on Nidus.)

Wasn't the Nidus blueprint that you get at the end of the quest called an Old War Relic? I could be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure its this artifact which you wager in the last mission in The Index during the quest. I'm pretty sure I remember somebody (Nef Anyo or Ergo Glast) mentioning its an old war relic.

[NeithanDiniem]

On 8/30/2017 at 5:22 PM, GrayArchon said:

The Arid Eviscerator and Guardsman synthesis entries show that most, if not all, Orokin technology was controlled through "gene locks". Individuals in the Orokin hierarchy cannot rise to a higher position just because it's vacant. With the Orokin leadership taken out, access to technology and infrastructure was lost forever. So this supposition that the Tenno had to spend time hunting down the last remnants of Orokin hierarchy and extinguishing them is not supported by lore. The Queens, despite being Orokin, were not able to access most Orokin technology, thus why they are ruling over an empire of dilapidated clones instead of robots, spectres, and Void. They don't even look Orokin.

"Likewise we know the Tenno were available after the empire's destruction because of the existence of the council, which could not have existed during the time of the empire."

Also doesn't jive with lore. We know from the conversation with the Lotus at the end of the Second Dream that the Tenno had internal hierarchy and structure in the form of the Five Schools. Nothing stops them from having a ruling Council (which would have presumably taken direction from the Orokin leadership).

Your hypotheses are logical given a lack of information, I will admit, but we have some information on this time period, and it contradicts you.

Except we know they had the genes to unlock various Orokin tech, such as the gate network, which is why in one of those very synthesis entries the Grineer sided with that Orokin in the first place, she had what they needed to get the gene key. If Orokin military leaders were in any way competent and enabled to do their jobs, theyd have the keys necessary to do said jobs of being military commanders, which would include access to military and transportation technology. These are the very things that a military commander could use to hold power over a system in the wake of leaders being assassinated. It also means theyd be able to hold military strength together and put up a front against any further Sentient incursion, which would again be counter to what Lotus was instructed to do with the Orokin. The queens dont "look Orokin" because they had been transferring their mind to new hosts, just as they tried to do with your Operator. All they had access to were clones made from remnants of Orokin cloning tech using DNA templates that were by design made to degrade. Those two in particular did not have all the gene keys or technology as the full Orokin leaders did, but they certainly would have had more to use if more Orokin military leaders were around.

As for the Tenno schools, the schools were a part of their time on the Zariman, it was not specified as being only after the incident. How it was adapted after the incident to help them control and direct the void energy inside them has not been fully clarified. With how the Orokin after Margulis kept the Tenno before and during the war, caged up like animals and controlled to prevent them from doing anything outside their orders, it would make no sense at all for them to have a council where in they are fully able to develop weapons and Warframes. Ballas would have simply created the Warframe himself, as he had a particular knack and interest in it already. If DE adds better info on this subject and it clarifies their treatment more under the Orokin or it canonizes when the council was around, I cant see it existing before the fall with what we currently know.

[GrayArchon]

23 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Except we know they had the genes to unlock various Orokin tech, such as the gate network, which is why in one of those very synthesis entries the Grineer sided with that Orokin in the first place, she had what they needed to get the gene key. If Orokin military leaders were in any way competent and enabled to do their jobs, theyd have the keys necessary to do said jobs of being military commanders, which would include access to military and transportation technology. These are the very things that a military commander could use to hold power over a system in the wake of leaders being assassinated.

Arid Eviscerator synthesis entry: "Avantus' Executor status meant that she, and by extension I, were among the few people who could move freely about the massive vessel." You had to be an Executor to literally open a door. That doesn't sound like the kind of system that allows for military mobilisation without authorisation from the highest levels, which would be impossible after the Collapse.

Side note: it's kind of weird that the Tenno missed this Executor. Maybe she wasn't at the Terminus?

26 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

As for the Tenno schools, the schools were a part of their time on the Zariman, it was not specified as being only after the incident.

Listen to the descriptions of the Tenno schools, for example Naramon: "This discipline focused on Knowing the Enemy, and the tacticians of Naramon believed that to truly understand a foe would confer the greatest advantage upon a warrior." That is the description of a military academy, or war school; some sort of warriors' creed. The children on the Zariman were just children, as far as we know. There's no reason for them to be learning military tactics. There's no evidence for the Tenno schools existing until well into the Transference project's timeline. There's also this quote from Lotus: "And so you became Tenno. Serving the Orokin, but bound by honour. As the Tenno grew, they founded great schools: the Tenno Ways." The Tenno schools were founded after the children became Tenno, and they were founded and presumably controlled/operated by the Tenno, not some Orokin master.

33 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

With how the Orokin after Margulis kept the Tenno before and during the war, caged up like animals and controlled to prevent them from doing anything outside their orders, it would make no sense at all for them to have a council where in they are fully able to develop weapons and Warframes.

There's no support for this description of how the Orokin controlled the Tenno. In fact, given the Orokin's revulsion to the Void and the Tenno, they may have tried to stay as far away from it as possible. Ballas was clearly deeply involved, but there are many fan theories about the amount of loyalty he had for Orokin society. We know that Ballas presented new warframes to other high-ranking Orokin, as depicted in the Prime warframe trailers, but we don't know how much they were involved otherwise. It's possible this presentation of warframes was just a formality. I mean, the Lotus was able to infiltrate the project and become the Tenno's handler, so the level of Orokin involvement was clearly not high.

[Arniox]

On 6/9/2017 at 3:25 AM, (PS4)Ch1b1N1njaGam1ng said:

We all love primes. Trinity Prime, Frost Prime, Valkyr Prime and SO much more! However people are more wanting of Nidus to be a prime frame, however I will explain why that will NOT happen.

 

The reason why is: It wont make sense in the lore.

 

Think about it, Nidus was acquired from Ergo Glast after The Glast Gambit quest when he gives us a Myconian artifact which was used to understand the Infested better.

 

Lets rephrase that. Nidus was made after the events of The Glast Gambit meaning he didnt exist when the Orokin were still around. Also the artifact was Myconian NOT Orokin meaning they couldn't have made nidus before the collapse.

 

But I'm gonna throw the towel in here. I just KNOW there's gonna be someone who will counter this claim.

 

(Also as a heads up I DON'T have a distain for Nidus I personally Love the frame. Its just that I'm loyal to the games lore and I don't wanna see it being a jumbled mess. So please don't say I'm hating on Nidus.)

Look, at this point, lore does not effect a prime frame. Valkyr prime is apparently lore breaking but meh, she still got  primed. And De have stated every single frame will get primed. There is nothing saying they won't 

[GigabitLair]

Actually.. it was not given to us by Ego Glast.

The Myconians state that they'll reward you for helping them with parts of a Warframe that once was in the area. We do not know anything about this Warframe other than it is Nidus.

[DaMasque]

Orokin made the infested no?

There must have been a conductor(Nidus prime?) of sort... something that they could use to control the infested.

Unfortunately, that didn't work. Infested went rouge and killed everything insight and "maybe" absorbed the would be conductor making its own "Nidus" But couldn't get it to work cause we need voids kids, tho the infested doesn't know that, so this "Nidus" became the relic that was given to us at the end of Glast Gambit.

What about Helminth? Not much is known other then it serves our warframes or just Nidus.

I'm thinking Helminth is just another bundle of consciousness that separated itself from the main hive, living to serve the frames, kinda reminds me of the Ordis fragments. But Ordis is to the tenno, while Helminth is to the frames. 

Helminth also understands the existence of the tenno, and yet it claims to serve the warframes, that has to say something about the two, warfarme vs tenno. 

I'm high as a freakin kite... 

want to counter argue? Might take a while since i'll be sleeping~