Hate for Limbo

[Bobtm]

The community's general hatred for the Limbo frame is really simple to explain;  Limbo's design is just very conducive to obtrusive outcomes.

Or to put in a less funnily worded manner;  It is incredibly easy for a Limbo player to be bothersome to allies, due to the core nature of his ability mechanics.

So now to elaborate on that a bit.  Limbo has the ability to unnecessarily take away allies' ability to use gunfire.  He is very counter to playing alongside anyone who focuses on/enjoys gun focused play more than melee focused play.  This does not mean there aren't ways for a Limbo to be played that doesn't work, but the Limbo player in question has to actually be intelligent and "team-minded" enough to know how to make his abilities work with a team.  Instead of being stubborn and using their abilities in an anti-team manner, while just using the bogus excuse that they're being helpful.

A large Cataclysm Stasis for example, is just a crappier version of Vauban's Bastille.  Nobody wants that nonsense, so if anyone is ever someone who has used a large Cata+Stasis with a long duration, I emplore you to stop this instant.  As that is one of the largest causes for the near universal hatred that Limbo (rightfully) receives.

Outside of that facet are the Limbo players who just genuinely don't understand the frame's ability mechanics.  This group makes up the lion's share of the Limbo using playerbase.  These types are often quick to fall prey to trying Catanuke builds, or ones to simply cast Cataclysm in increcibly poor moments.  Such as using Cataclysm whilst an ally is trying to hack a panel during Spy, or when there's a lockdown.  I have actually had to go out of my way to explain to a Limbo before that their Cataclysm prevented players from using hacking panels.  There are folks who don't know how or when to use Banish as well, and end up constantly sending allies to the Rift unintentionally due to their lack of understanding its AoE nature.

Due to Limbo's obscure mechanical nature, there should almost have to be a required test that players have to take and pass, before being allowed to use him in non-solo play.

Then lastly we have the second smallest segment of the Limbo playerbase, those who exploit his mechanics to actively troll others.  There's really nothing to explain here.  These players understand most of, if not all of Limbo's mechanics.  But despite that they actively and joyously use his abilities to impose limitations on other players as much as possible.

31 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Ubern00ber88 said:

I think this thread brings up a more pressing and interesting question. What constitutes a "good" limbo player?

That's rather easy to answer.  A good Limbo player is one who can be completely mindful of allies 100% of the time in their ability usage, while being Limbo.  Sadly this is by far and away the smallest minority of the Limbo using playerbase.

Take me for example.  While using Limbo myself I'll come up with simple things if warranted.  Telling allies if they actively want to be Banished at some point to crouch near me, or throw a waypoint at their location, etc.  If they do not desire to be Banished, I will simply refrain from casting Banish on them, period.  This means always watching the minimap and never even considering casting Banish when they're within the general vicinity.  In those circumstances I'll actively dodge into and out of the Rift to avoid damage, and take shots at foes without using Banish or Cataclsym.

If I am going to use Cataclysm, it's only under certain specific situations.  If we're defending and have a Frost, I will not use Cataclysm unless that Frost mucks things up and lets their bubble pop.  I will immediately close that Cataclysm when the Frost's bubble is back up as well, to limit obtrusiveness.  With regards to Stasis, I use it in a very direct way in tandom with Cataclysm to allow all allied gunfire to work in a fair way.

I only keep Stasis on for short bursts of around 4 to 7 seconds.  Then quickly turning Stasis off, then immediately back on again as fast as the animation allows me to.  By doing this allied gunfire will strike its intended target almost immediately after being fired.  But enemies still don't generally have the ability to react and damage my allies, nor anything we're defending at the time.

To sum it up in one sweet and simple line;  A good Limbo player is one who is willing to take a back seat in terms of control.

Anyone willing to go through the effort of making sure not to step on the toes of their allies, and one who refuses to arbitrarily limit their enjoyment by forcing them into melee play is a good Limbo player.  By proxy, a bad Limbo player is one who just uses their abilities whenever they want, and wonders why allies don't just use melee.

____________________________________________________________

As a final note/addendum to this.  Despite being a good Limbo player myself and one who's avoided the hate personally due to the controlled and mindful way in which I use him, it's honestly just too exhausting.  Even though, overall, Limbo is my favorite frame, the current nature of his post-rework abilities is a real downer.  I'm getting to the point where I simply don't wish to play Limbo any longer myself.  I'm fully sprinting to join the Limbo hate train even, despite understanding all of this and being able to implement this stuff.  It's just no fun to be using a frame that is justifiably hated by anyone with a lick of common sense.

Much as it does suck to say, Limbo needs another slew of changes ASAP.  His rework was an absolute failure that managed to make him even more anti-team than he ever was in the past.  Which is honestly very jarring to even think about.  The Rift-dodge passive was a great change, but the changes to Banish, almost the entirety of Stasis, his notably modified Rift Surge, and the nonsensical damage changes on Cataclysm were all outright terrible.  Every one of those changes has only served to increase the ability of Limbo to be trollish to allies, either intentionally or unintentionally.

Hydroid may be the weakest frame in the game currently.  But Limbo is by far the worst in terms of mechanical design right now, period.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Bobtm
There's always one typo at least, isn't there?

[_Vortus_]

Plenty of frames affect the game play of the rest of the team.    Plenty can either ruin or carry, depending on the pov, the squad during a game.   Limbo however is the only one that can essentially, albeit temporarily,  cast Loki's disarm on his own team.     His other powers are annoying as hell but can be dealt with.    There are a very few conscientious Limbo players, maybe 1 in 500 that tries to not annoy the rest of the squad.   The rest range from mildly annoying to have fun doing what you are doing, im gonna go clean out lockers.    You wanna carry, ill let you.   If you go down and I don't revive you, you were one of the 499, not the 1.  You are also going to sit at the end till the timer runs out if you are not one of those rare Limbo players.  

[(PSN)Quil_Nye]

Whenever I join a public group and I see limbo I lose my motivation to even try.   Been playing long enough to know majority of the time it will be a troll. 

 

Edited June 18, 2017 by (PS4)Quil_Nye

[(XBOX)Ubern00ber88]

23 minutes ago, Bobtm said:

-snip- (Avoiding text wall)

 

So as I read this it's basically Limbo should play the way his team wants him to which appears to be forcing the main issue back on Limbo, limiting how others want to play. I think this speaks more to the lack of adaptability (and stubborn refusal to attempt so) of a large portion of Warframe players. I mean when you see certain frames it changes up your playstyle some of the time yeah? Like spamming more powers with a trinity around or grabbing those sweet buffs/staying amped with Octavia. Then why do people just honestly slam Limbo instead of doing like they would for any other frame? I'm more a nightcrawler player personally (bamf in, shoot, bamf back out. Cataclysm/Stasis in emergencies) so I haven't really seen direct hatred of Limbo though it is clear it exists.

As for a crappier Bastille well...Cataclysm/Stasis combo beats it in Range, Duration, and the number of enemies affected at once with Bastille's one versatility being multiples deployed. 

~The Devil's Advocate.

[(PSN)Elvenbane]

I made the mistake of not aborting today's sortie 3 kuva defense when I saw Limbo. It was one of the most painful missions I have ever played. Yeah, no one went down (except Limbo) but it took forever. I will be aborting the instant I spot a Limbo in the future. Limbo is annoying and his ability to basically shut down the enemy is stupid and broken, good job DE. 

[Bobtm]

7 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Ubern00ber88 said:

I think this speaks more to the lack of adaptability (and stubborn refusal to attempt so) of a large portion of Warframe players. I mean when you see certain frames it changes up your playstyle some of the time yeah? Like spamming more powers with a trinity around or grabbing those sweet buffs/staying amped with Octavia. Then why do people just honestly slam Limbo instead of doing like they would for any other frame?

That part is due to the mechanics behind it.  There's a difference between opening new avenues, versus locking ones out.  In the Trinity example players are allowed to use abilities more, but aren't forced to.  With Octavia you can shoot, crouch, jump, or melee with timings to get buffs, but aren't forced to.  Limbo is slammed because his abilities don't offer choice of benefits, it's forced without any actual interactivity.

To look at an upcoming example, Harrow is the absolute definition of well designed teamplay with a mechanical flair.  Offering benefits to allies without unnecessary limitation, with benefits that vary depending on the skill of said players in question.  If allies can get more headshots they benefit more, but not getting headshots won't impose some downside.

If Harrow were designed using Limbo's "concept" he'd instead make it so allies could only do damage on headshots.  Which would be outright horrid.  If Valkyr were designed like Limbo, her 4 would make the entire team go into Hysteria when she hits 4, making them invincible, but forcing all allies to use only melee.

Provide benefits to make folks want to do X and/or Y thing.  Rather than providing limitations that force folks to use X and/or Y or else.  This is precisely where Limbo's rework fails so spectacularly.

Also, it's not an issue of adaptability precisely.  That's the most commonly misused and incorrect argument brought up by folks trying to defend Limbo.  Removing options without providing alternate routes isn't something that falls into the realm of adaptability when discussing allied traits.  Enemies force players to adapt by providing hard limitations either through their damage, movement, or intricate mechanics.  Allies are supposed to open up extra avenues for success.

Limbo's current design is actually that of an enemy rather than an ally.  Which, when you think about it, really does explain a lot about how folks feel towards him.

10 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Ubern00ber88 said:

As for a crappier Bastille well...Cataclysm/Stasis combo beats it in Range, Duration, and the number of enemies affected at once with Bastille's one versatility being multiples deployed. 

~The Devil's Advocate.

Bastille still wins out hands down when you consider the simple fact that it's far easier to use, can be deployed over multiple instances (meaning it can win in Range) and doesn't force any unnecessary or unwanted limitations onto allies.

I do appreciate the arguments however, even if it's just Devil's Advocate stuff it's still good to help broaden the viewpoint of things through extra discussion.

Also, nightcrawler Limbo is just too damn fun.

[Tesseract7777]

I think the Limbo rework shows how much Scott needs to sit down, make a secret account he doesn't tell players about, maybe push his account up faster with dev mods if he needs to, just so he can start playing regular coop games in secret, and see how all the various frames really interact with each other in a coop environment. 

Scott makes most of the decisions here, and while he really understands the abilities and mechanics from a developer perspective, some of these things can only really be understood from a player perspective, and I think Scott missing the mark so damn hard with the Limbo rework is a strong indicator that maybe he needs to spend a little more time in the game pretending to be a normal player, and putting himself in that mindset. 

Hell, even just a really small test server with an NDA clause for just a small handful of veterans would have made Scott realize well before it shipped that the new Limbo was actually more intrusive and more of a problem than the previous iteration of Limbo. 

These changes are not being tested enough beforehand, and it really, really showed with the latest Limbo changes, as he is now worse off than ever before. 

I was hoping I would be dusting my Limbo off after the rework, because I really like him, but I quickly shelved him again when I realized Scott had managed to make him even more hated than before -- something I hadn't even thought possible. 

[saltygr33n]

I've played limbo, only enough to say, if you're gonna limbo, why not just solo?

Drama free.....

[(XBOX)Tanta Cinta]

He ruins momentum for me and prevents me from doin the killing

Edited June 18, 2017 by (XB1)OTF SERENiTY

[(PSN)Quil_Nye]

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)OTF SERENiTY said:

He ruins momentum for me and prevents me from doin the killing

Also a good point.   Reading thread again and seeing a lot of different views on why limbo is bad and they all are absolutely correct.  I enjoy playing limbo sometimes but usually solo or very seldom with friends.   I have never ever joined a public group with limbo because I know everyone hates him and I don't want to ruin anyone's play time. 

 

[Silvus-Sol]

11 hours ago, (Xbox One)ThermalStone said:

The problem with Limbo is that he dictates the pace of gameplay for the entire team.  He alone decides when you can and can't kill things.  Using Limbo in a public game is rightly considered rude.

^ This.

Also, every Limbo user believes they are one of the good Limbos. And since they are one of the good Limbos, it's perfectly fine for them to use their abilities as they want because they are certain they are "playing him right". Limbos tend to be arrogant, and firmly believe that they are always helping, even when they are not. Trying to tell them contrary (politely or no) is more likely to start an argument about Limbo than anything else.

 

[Daktaro]

if i try to think of any experience with 'good limbo' player.. there was one time in sortie defense and he protected the target well, thankful for that. cataclysm got a bit annoying but it wasn't so bad. another time was in a fissure excavation with a limbo and trinity so limbo was spamming his powers. it did mean he was doing most of the killing but it also meant none of the excavators were even close to destroying and we could have stayed in that mission forever.. left in the end cuz trinity had to go. i was frost in that mission and never had to use the bubble. i've been in another excavation with a limbo though and did have to use the bubble that time, since the excavator was still taking damage somehow. so yeah depends on player. 

i never quit a mission on seeing a limbo. rather than hating that person, it kinda makes me feel dumb instead when playing with him lol because i have a hard time telling which enemies i can kill or not. that's my problem not limbo's. i don't play him enough to know his powers very well - only take him for the occasional rescue or kuva. even when i play limbo myself i don't know who i can kill or not. so feel like a lot of frustration with limbo would go away once it's fully understood how he works. 

idk seems like even useful limbos can't help but be a little annoying. just because of the no-guns-in-stasis thing. sometimes you're bringing a melee weapon just to level it so it's way underpowered for the mission or something, so you don't want to be forced to melee. like other people said, you can roll out of the rift if it's not cataclysm so that's not so big of a deal. Bobtm seems to have the best explanation I've seen so far for a 'good limbo'. 

[Kusungphak]

I have quit missions when I have had limbo annoying me in missions but there are missions in which he is very very helpful. He is a very situational warframe. 

Missions which I will quit if there is a limbo. 

Defense, exterminate, Farming Survival : The goal is to kill off the enemies to end the mission or get resources. If you will delay it I will quit.

Missions where I will prefer a limbo

Spy, Rescue, Kuva Farming, Mobile defense, Hijack, Sabotage, Kela Assassination

As you can see the prefer list is bigger. So i definitely don't hate limbo. In fact I like him as a he is a very unique frame. 

[Daakjenaar]

Look at my profile picture, and guess what I think of Limbo.

Limbo is my go-to solo frame for most missions (Spy, defense, excavations, rescue, capture, hijack, extermination) and is, in my opinion, possibly the most effective frame in the game.

I have used Limbo in multiplayer quite often, after asking every other person in the group and assuring them I know what I'm doing.

Limbo is one of the hardest-to-kill frames, and is capable of excellent damage and CC. When you use Stasis and Banish, you can easily kill an oncoming horde of enemies. When you use cataclysm at all, when you deactivate it, it goes boom, and there's no more anything. Every aspect of Limbo makes him extremely powerful and functional.

[(PSN)Radehx]

20 hours ago, venon23 said:

yea the dude above me say it all Limbo is very very good for a premade team but for a public mach dont use him unlease u want too trigger some ppl

Basically this. A good Limbo can still help in public games, but he really shines in well-coordinated pre-made teams. One of the few frames that actually require good comms. 

[AngelChikage]

Ignoring people who ask for taxi for limbo mission may reduce such annoying condition. Or bringing pox.

 

There are good limbo players, and more bad limbo players :(

Edited June 19, 2017 by AngelChikage

[SkyWorm1]

I started sighing whenever I see a Limbo because of a sortie mission that had some primary weapon restriction and some Limbo kept using his max range 4 + 3.
I mean, I'd like to hit these guys with my melee weapon, really, but I don't have any on me right now. Please no stasis please.

Even in regular missions without restrictions, I might have a loadout for killing with my primary and only a crappy melee weapon that I'm leveling. I just hate having 1 guy come in and dictate to the other 3: nope no killing with guns today.
In a premade team that knows what to expect, he can be great I'm sure but in pub games, I'd consider it rude to bring him if your build forces the others to adjust their play style to you.

[(XBOX)Ubern00ber88]

Reading more on this thread it seem like the problem isn't Limbo specifically but his ability stasis. More specifically the fact that people feel you cannot use guns while this ability is active. Well, you CAN use the guns the bullets just don't fly until stasis either reaches its limit or is deactivated (sidenote: This is terrifying when 10 kulstar rounds go off at once). What the core issue is is that most Limbos are content to run the full duration of stasis instead of doing something smart like proccing it, say, 5-second bursts (allowing friendly bullets to do their jobs while keeping the cc up) If they removed the bullet ability (as honestly awesome as is...seriously its like Kenshiro with bullets) then most Limbo would be dispelled and we could get back to yelling at banish trolls. (Just roll!)

[(PSN)Radehx]

58 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Ubern00ber88 said:

Reading more on this thread it seem like the problem isn't Limbo specifically but his ability stasis. More specifically the fact that people feel you cannot use guns while this ability is active. Well, you CAN use the guns the bullets just don't fly until stasis either reaches its limit or is deactivated (sidenote: This is terrifying when 10 kulstar rounds go off at once). What the core issue is is that most Limbos are content to run the full duration of stasis instead of doing something smart like proccing it, say, 5-second bursts (allowing friendly bullets to do their jobs while keeping the cc up) If they removed the bullet ability (as honestly awesome as is...seriously its like Kenshiro with bullets) then most Limbo would be dispelled and we could get back to yelling at banish trolls. (Just roll!)

Imo one of his key problem aren't really his abilities, it's the fact that IF (when) he fucks up, he tends to really hurt his entire team. If I run as Nidus and make a mistake, I don't automatically take down the entire team. 

Also, imo Limbo works best in teams where the other players have some Limbo play experience themselves. It's hard to work with a frame when you don't "get" the key mechanics behind it, and that counts for Limbo more than any other frame. 

Personally, I like Limbo as he is now...but I also admit he can totally screw up teams and there's no way to prevent this unless you're playing with a good Limbo (which is the minority of Limbo players). Like, if you're a Limbo player using max range in a defense mission, you're a bit of an idiot ;)

[LordNero86]

The problem is IMO not the frame but the player using it. Everything is fine If the player can use limbo to his full extent and not hindering other players. Problem arises when the limbo-using player cannot and/or deliberately not doing the role he's supposed to take and/or deliberately trolling other players.

 

Just to share a bit of my experience:

Yesterday's sortie was mobdef, rescue and def kuva eximus. I ran a 3-man squad for sortie and made it pub to pick up those who needs help in completing it. We picked up a limbo that day. We've had limbo many times and it's okay before. Things changes on that day's sortie. Mobdef, limbo does what he's supposed to do, putting cata statis on the def console. Rescue, we cleared so fast that the limbo don't have anything to do. Defense Eximus Kuva, this is where my opinion starts to change. I'm running loki this time to teleport the vip to the starting point, so he doesn't stray away to the gas chamber or anything. Limbo asked if he can put up his "4", I said yes, put it up to lock the vip from incoming enemies. He did just that and I'm okay with him guarding the vip. After a couple waves, we are curious why the wave didn't end while the enemies are nowhere in sight (all 3 of us in the center part of the map, killing enemies). We checked back to the vip and oh-my-god.... enemies are in statis (which is good) but the limbo didn't even try to kill it........ I know eximus enemies at sortie 3 is kinda tough, but he's not even trying to hit it while in statis......We managed to clear the sortie but that's the last time I'm taking a pub limbo in my 3-man squad.

 

Yeah, limbo is good. The player using it? not so sure

[(XBOX)dude1286]

I use the Max Range + Max Duration Stasis + Cataclysm build mostly for Sortie Defense and when I do, I ensure that everyone is either using a good melee or killing frame. I just wish they would change the way enemies go in and out of the rift on the edges of Cataclysm. Maybe make it so outside of the initial cast, an enemy has to stand within a smaller range than the current range of Cataclysm to become rifted, sowe don't get pockets of enemies stuck on the edges of Cataclysm. Also make it so that enemies that outside the bubble go outside the rift, exactly like players.

[o0verlord0o]

Thank you all for the great input!

Edited June 19, 2017 by o0verlord0o

[(PSN)Elvenbane]

1 hour ago, LordNero86 said:

The problem is IMO not the frame but the player using it.

No, it's a problem with the frame. As you point out a "good" player and a little communication can mitigate Limbo's troll potential, but this is mostly unnecessary with all other frames.

Limbo is also incredibly broken...a fact that is largely ignored when discussing what's wrong with Limbo.  I didn't think being able to freeze every enemy for all 10 defense waves so that they can be slowly and safely dispatched 1 by 1 using melee is the sort of "engaging" game play DE is striving for.

If I showed someone that had never seen Warframe before my sortie 3 defense yesterday with a Limbo, they couldn't help but come to the conclusion that Warframe is a terrible game that isn't fun to play.

[Maqabir]

I've played Limbo and I've played with Limbo and I've basically decided to stick with Solo play if I'm running him as I don't want to ruin the game for my teammates.

I'm tired of joining a game that suddenly becomes a clusterfuck of enemies on different planes of existence where some can be killed and others can't.

[(XBOX)Ubern00ber88]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Elvenbane said:

No, it's a problem with the frame. As you point out a "good" player and a little communication can mitigate Limbo's troll potential, but this is mostly unnecessary with all other frames.

Limbo is also incredibly broken...a fact that is largely ignored when discussing what's wrong with Limbo.  I didn't think being able to freeze every enemy for all 10 defense waves so that they can be slowly and safely dispatched 1 by 1 using melee is the sort of "engaging" game play DE is striving for.

If I showed someone that had never seen Warframe before my sortie 3 defense yesterday with a Limbo, they couldn't help but come to the conclusion that Warframe is a terrible game that isn't fun to play.

I'm failing to see how Limbo is broken since it appears the only thing that seems to be brought up is "I can only melee when stasis is active" which supports my original statement that the problem people are really having is the mechanics and use of one ability.

Again you CAN shoot while stasis is active but your bullets won't find their mark until stasis ends (by player choice, timer run out, or reaching its bullet capacity) which the unfortunate truth is that most Limbo players just run the timer out for the full duration which is bad player skill, not a bad ability.