Being the Stalker at Tennocon?

[BornWithTeeth]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

It is 2:30 in the morning. Give me some leeway.

That's cool. If it's late, and you're tired and misspoke, then that's fine.

 

However, there's a simple consideration I'd like from you. You seem to really dislike the idea of people opting out of the mode. I say this because you have been arguing against making it an option for several pages (and several hours) now.

 

Why does it matter so much that other players might opt out if it is a choice? Now, please do not just say 'It's no big deal, just accept invasions already!' I really want to know why you seem to want players who don't like PvP to have to engage in it. That's all.

[Zanchak]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

It is 2:30 in the morning. Give me some leeway.

Besides, Conclave may be optional, however Stalker, G3, and Zanuka are optional as well after a certain limit (G3 and Zanuka can be completely optional in your entire warframe career, but you have a whole lot more work ahead of you). Stalker is totally optional once the map is completed. I still don't see the problem.

That's your opinion. Doesn't make it invisible because I'm not acting on the anti-"pvp" tunnel vision you currently are.

If you looked at the other reason I think its a horrible idea, my main reason has nothing to do with pvp, and everything to do with ruining a character I dont think the community should have access to use to begin with. So as I said, wall of assumptions. Reading is good.

[BornWithTeeth]

Before we get hit with any more of those "I'm just arguing from a neutral position" statements, I'd like to point out that starting with the assumption that PvP is good and this mode should definitely be implemented is not the neutral position here.

The neutral position would be "is this mode a good idea? How can it be made a good idea?"

[EmberStar]

8 hours ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

Please, explain to me how dying 1 time (in which case that 1 death means player stalker automatically kneels and leaves and cannot enter that mission for the remaining duration again) to Stalker, player controlled or other prevents progression.

When you first started, how many times did Stalker kill you and you couldn't revive and continue on your mission as though nothing happened? Please tell me this sudden "one stalker per mission suddenly prevents progression" that you've experienced with AI stalker that would carry over into player stalker. Because I've never seen it once.

 

For me personally:  I DO NOT LIKE PVP.  It is *utterly irrelevant* whether I win or lose, or if the PVP Stalker can do something that will fail missions.  It's the fact that the mode would even EXIST.  I do not play PVP modes.  I do not play PVP games.  The near certainty that the devs will lock *something* behind fighting the PVP Stalker makes it more annoying, but it is the *existence* of the PVP Stalker that would cause me to quit playing the game.  Unless it's possible to totally lock out the PVP and in a way that doesn't require me to skip every part of the game that could result in getting PVP'd by him.  Which some people in this thread seems to feel should be teaming with anyone, ever, and fighting any boss for any reason, ever.  Apparently Stalker can't actually appear in Sortie missions.  Whoopie.  I'm reasonably sure you still get Death Marks from a Sortie Assassination, and I *know* you get them from killing a boss for any other reason.

It has NOTHING to do with whether I can beat a PVP Stalker, or not.  I DO NOT CARE.  It is the fact that it would be a PVP mode, where another player is deliberately targeting me for attack.

Edit:  You continue to argue from the point that "getting downed by a PVP Stalker isn't a big deal."  You seem to ignore that some people don't want to have to engage a PVP Stalker in combat in the first place. 

Oh, and ideas like locking him out of mission chat won't really prevent abuse from the kind of PVP maladjust that might do that kind of thing.  It might prevent them from trolling and taunting the entire group.  Unless it also adds the Stalker to the /Ignore list, there's nothing that would stop a complete jerk from targeting someone via /tells afterwords.

Edit of the edit:  And to be completely clear - when I say "deliberately targeting me," I don't mean picking out my name or invading with me as the target specifically.  I mean "another player pointing a weapon at me with the ability to do damage."  And unless the PVP Stalker is forbidden to do damage to non-marked targets, what, precisely, is going to stop a PVP player from choosing to *IGNORE* their actual objective in favor of attacking the group generally?

Edited July 17, 2017 by EmberStar

[(PSN)Dark-TailedFox]

6 hours ago, EmberStar said:

For me personally:  I DO NOT LIKE PVP.  It is *utterly irrelevant* whether I win or lose, or if the PVP Stalker can do something that will fail missions.  It's the fact that the mode would even EXIST.  I do not play PVP modes.  I do not play PVP games.  The near certainty that the devs will lock *something* behind fighting the PVP Stalker makes it more annoying, but it is the *existence* of the PVP Stalker that would cause me to quit playing the game.  Unless it's possible to totally lock out the PVP and in a way that doesn't require me to skip every part of the game that could result in getting PVP'd by him.  Which some people in this thread seems to feel should be teaming with anyone, ever, and fighting any boss for any reason, ever.  Apparently Stalker can't actually appear in Sortie missions.  Whoopie.  I'm reasonably sure you still get Death Marks from a Sortie Assassination, and I *know* you get them from killing a boss for any other reason.

The fact that the mode's existence is enough to make you quit a 99% pve game? That's talking like the game was holding you by a thread to begin with and the slightest thing would've made you quit anyways. And just the area of "possibly" being invaded by Stalker (AI or PVP) which your rates would still be as low as they are now just with more effort needed on your part than to shoot him in the face and move on with your day as its been for the last 3 years? Besides, the addition of a Stalker mode doesn't suddenly make Warframe a "pvp game". A "PVP" game is something like Smite, Crossout, DC Universe, etc. Those are PVP games, Warframe is not especially even if a Stalker mode is added it will still be a 99% PVE game.

It has NOTHING to do with whether I can beat a PVP Stalker, or not.  I DO NOT CARE.  It is the fact that it would be a PVP mode, where another player is deliberately targeting me for attack.

So can anyone struck with a radiation effect. You aren't able to defend yourself? You could say the same thing about the AI enemies, they're ALL pointing guns at you deliberately targeting you to attack. 

Edit:  You continue to argue from the point that "getting downed by a PVP Stalker isn't a big deal."  You seem to ignore that some people don't want to have to engage a PVP Stalker in combat in the first place. 

If you hate it that much then do what you do to normal AI Stalker. Shoot him in the face as soon as he stands up and move about your day. It seriously won't even be that much of a difference between the 2. You might even find a Stalker who decides to help your mission rather than try and fight you, or one who'll just wander around. Those people exist in the community and you seem to blot out their existence.

Oh, and ideas like locking him out of mission chat won't really prevent abuse from the kind of PVP maladjust that might do that kind of thing.  It might prevent them from trolling and taunting the entire group.  Unless it also adds the Stalker to the /Ignore list, there's nothing that would stop a complete jerk from targeting someone via /tells afterwords.

If someone is going to taunt you with tells to begin with, it wouldn't matter if they were Stalker moded or not, they were prone to doing it anyways. Any sort of griefing Stalker players can do would've been done as a regular ally as well with the one exception that they'd have to damage themselves with weak radiation to shoot you in the back, and people find ways anyways. This isn't a Stalker mode issue, its a player issue.

Edit of the edit:  And to be completely clear - when I say "deliberately targeting me," I don't mean picking out my name or invading with me as the target specifically.  I mean "another player pointing a weapon at me with the ability to do damage."  And unless the PVP Stalker is forbidden to do damage to non-marked targets, what, precisely, is going to stop a PVP player from choosing to *IGNORE* their actual objective in favor of attacking the group generally?

Refer to the first half. And no, why would they change the whole thing like that? AI Stalker obliterated entire squads hunting down one person in the past, and still does that now even as Sentient Stalker considering he has more area of effect attacks as a Shadow. Not being allowed to attack anything other than his mark defeats the purpose of Stalker himself too, including his ability to attack enemies with Blinding Bladestorm. 

And you wish to call everyone who uses the mode a "PVP" player. So are you saying that PVE players who might be bored and try out the mode are suddenly PVP players? Hell, if I were to use the mode I'd do one of 2 things in it. Roam around an invaded mission as Stalker just because I could, or assist in the mission with a loadout I couldn't have otherwise (plus it makes the cell a total of 5 instead of 4 so that opens up things on its own). Will it be that way for every Stalker player? No. Is it still in the realm of existence? Yeah, it most certainly is. This generalization that "everyone using the mode is a deplorable bottom feeder" is as bad as the scant people who admittedly would use the mode to be a general $&*^ to someone's mission beyond what's expected of them.

 

[Kinetos]

Quote

“What really draws players into it is that you can play it with your friends, and it’s about working together,” said Ford. “The industry is so dominated by the competitive kill each other, fight each other, play against each other, that you don’t really get a reprieve of that sense of animosity in gaming. So our game, it’s fair, it’s free, and it’s really hard to find something like that, specially in the sci-fi genre.”

https://www.ourlondon.ca/news-story/7405854-warframe-universe-powers-up-in-forest-city/

Forced PvP Stalker goes directly against this quote from Rebecca saying Warframe Co-Op PvE is a refreshing break from the competitive PvP dominating the overall industry of sci-fi gaming.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Kinetos
Automatic font color for dark theme users

[EmberStar]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

 

You don't get it.  Fine, whatever.  It's not that the game "is barely holding me by a thread."  It's that I HATE PVP beyond my ability to describe.  Yes, I would quit the game if this goes live and there is any chance it could affect me.  I've already opted out of *many* fairly significant pieces of the game because "they're not for me."  I don't do the raids, because I don't like endgame content like that.  (And therefore, I will never have any Arcanes unless I throw a fairly massive amount of platinum at trading for them.)  I don't do the Syndicates, because I don't like faction systems.  (And have thrown platinum at trading for a handful of augments because I wanted to play with them anyway, along with all the Syndicate weapons.)  And clearly, I've opted out of anything related to PVP.  Which for me includes Rathuum and the Index, two PVE modes that just *feel* to me like they're kind of patterned on PVP.  And yes, of the few times I've run Sorties, "Radiation hazard" is one of the conditions where I'll completely skip it for the day.  But if the devs allow a PVP mode that can potentially interact with ALL PVE, that's enough that my hatred of PVP would outweigh absolutely everything else, *including* the fairly significant amount of my own money I've spent on this game.

The AI enemies are AI enemies.  Not players.  There's no *intent* there.  Grineer *exist* to shoot at me.  If I'm playing the game, I'm by definition fine with that.  But I play Warframe because it's one of the few online games where I even have the OPTION to play an online game.  My personal hatred of PVP modes means that I'm totally locked out of nearly every other online game, because most of them are pure PVP.  Warframe is one of very few where PVP isn't the dominant mode.  And even here, there's people that turn everything into competition - sprintframes, and I've actually had people freak out and start sending me rude tells when I somehow get "most damage dealt" on what they consider to be a "rubbish" frame like Mag.

And anyone who chooses to play as the Stalker is, at that moment and by definition, engaging in PVP.  Because if such a mode existed, the Player Stalker has NO FUNCTION other than to attack other players.  That is PVP.  Maybe they're dabbling at it, maybe they're curious about it, maybe it's even a case of "Wait, what does *this* button do?"  But a Player Stalker is a PVP Stalker.  I'm not sure how you even consider that debatable.  I don't think I've ever said that *everyone* who uses PVP is a "deplorable bottom feeder."  I have said that PVP modes tend to attract exactly the kind of player who should never be allowed to use it.  That's not the same thing.  And yes, I have had people inflict damage on themselves with Orokin lasers, or otherwise pick up a Radiation proc and attack me.  (And continue to do so long enough to make it clear it's not just accidentally shooting in my general direction with a Radiation proc stuck to them.)  I don't "attack back and destroy them," I don't run and hide.  You want to guess what my instant response is when it's clear that they've chosen to attack me?  Alt-TAB, force close the game, and I play something else for the rest of the night.  I don't *care* why they did it, or if they plan to have a laugh and revive me afterwards.  I DO NOT PVP.  And I'm not giving them the satisfaction of forcing me to increase my Missions Aborted counter, if that's their goal.

The AI Stalker is an AI enemy.  It exists as part of the game mechanics, it shows up as a random chance, it does damage to me or not based on some combination of random chance, attentiveness on my part, and whether or not I'm using a frame that I've upgraded enough to be comfortable with not upgrading them anymore or if I'm messing around with leveling / re-leveling a new or forma'd weapon or warframe.  Again, there's no *intent* with the AI Stalker.  It isn't making the *choice* to attack me, anymore than the Grineer.  Another player IS, and to me that makes all the difference.  And I want nothing to do with it.  It has NOTHING to do with whether or not a PVP Stalker is more or less dangerous than an AI Stalker.  It has EVERYTHING to with with the fact that another player made the *choice* to be the Stalker at all.  Yes, there is a chance that some people will choose to be the Stalker and then intentionally "throw the match" by not attacking people.  It's not very *likely* and it's certainly not going to be the normal outcome.

[(PSN)Dark-TailedFox]

37 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

You don't get it.  Fine, whatever.  It's not that the game "is barely holding me by a thread."  It's that I HATE PVP beyond my ability to describe.  Yes, I would quit the game if this goes live and there is any chance it could affect me.  I've already opted out of *many* fairly significant pieces of the game because "they're not for me."  I don't do the raids, because I don't like endgame content like that.  (And therefore, I will never have any Arcanes unless I throw a fairly massive amount of platinum at trading for them.)  I don't do the Syndicates, because I don't like faction systems.  (And have thrown platinum at trading for a handful of augments because I wanted to play with them anyway, along with all the Syndicate weapons.)  And clearly, I've opted out of anything related to PVP.  Which for me includes Rathuum and the Index, two PVE modes that just *feel* to me like they're kind of patterned on PVP.  And yes, of the few times I've run Sorties, "Radiation hazard" is one of the conditions where I'll completely skip it for the day.  But if the devs allow a PVP mode that can potentially interact with ALL PVE, that's enough that my hatred of PVP would outweigh absolutely everything else, *including* the fairly significant amount of my own money I've spent on this game.

So then you've just stated that through no one's fault but your own that you've essentially locked yourself out of 40% of the total pve content because of some personal aversion you have beyond just "I don't like playing against other people". You don't even have a right to cry out about anything that's harder than Pluto saying that because after that is Void and Derelict in terms of difficulty which both have lasers, but not even in every tileset of them. And further, everyone has run into some a-hole player during radiation sorties, most of us ignore them and do the objective anyways, your answer to end your session because of 1 person shows that you can't handle simple obstacles in full honesty.

The AI enemies are AI enemies.  Not players.  There's no *intent* there.  Grineer *exist* to shoot at me.  If I'm playing the game, I'm by definition fine with that.  But I play Warframe because it's one of the few online games where I even have the OPTION to play an online game.  My personal hatred of PVP modes means that I'm totally locked out of nearly every other online game, because most of them are pure PVP.  Warframe is one of very few where PVP isn't the dominant mode.  And even here, there's people that turn everything into competition - sprintframes, and I've actually had people freak out and start sending me rude tells when I somehow get "most damage dealt" on what they consider to be a "rubbish" frame like Mag.

The AI Stalker is an AI enemy as well. He exists with the *intent* to kill you. And there are more games than you obviously don't know about that don't have pvp as a central focus of their games, you just haven't tried to look for them especially since you're playing on PC. I play one myself that has both pvp and pve and they're completely separate from each other unless you choose to participate (minus select titles to wear). I'm ending this one here because I'm fixing to say something unfriendly as a result.

And anyone who chooses to play as the Stalker is, at that moment and by definition, engaging in PVP.  Because if such a mode existed, the Player Stalker has NO FUNCTION other than to attack other players.  That is PVP.  Maybe they're dabbling at it, maybe they're curious about it, maybe it's even a case of "Wait, what does *this* button do?"  But a Player Stalker is a PVP Stalker.  I'm not sure how you even consider that debatable.  I don't think I've ever said that *everyone* who uses PVP is a "deplorable bottom feeder."  I have said that PVP modes tend to attract exactly the kind of player who should never be allowed to use it.  That's not the same thing.  And yes, I have had people inflict damage on themselves with Orokin lasers, or otherwise pick up a Radiation proc and attack me.  (And continue to do so long enough to make it clear it's not just accidentally shooting in my general direction with a Radiation proc stuck to them.)  I don't "attack back and destroy them," I don't run and hide.  You want to guess what my instant response is when it's clear that they've chosen to attack me?  Alt-TAB, force close the game, and I play something else for the rest of the night.  I don't *care* why they did it, or if they plan to have a laugh and revive me afterwards.  I DO NOT PVP.  And I'm not giving them the satisfaction of forcing me to increase my Missions Aborted counter, if that's their goal.

Anyone who plays as Stalker decides on their own what they're going to do with it. They can opt themselves to do what Stalker does and kill his mark, or they can opt to be the 5th player in a squad and just have to watch their shots for the most part. Stalker can still assault the Grineer/Corpus/Infested just like anyone else. And just because you yourself haven't run into halfway decent people in pvp doesn't mean that everyone in pvp is the same caliber you're holding them to.

The AI Stalker is an AI enemy.  It exists as part of the game mechanics, it shows up as a random chance, it does damage to me or not based on some combination of random chance, attentiveness on my part, and whether or not I'm using a frame that I've upgraded enough to be comfortable with not upgrading them anymore or if I'm messing around with leveling / re-leveling a new or forma'd weapon or warframe.  Again, there's no *intent* with the AI Stalker.  It isn't making the *choice* to attack me, anymore than the Grineer.  Another player IS, and to me that makes all the difference.  And I want nothing to do with it.  It has NOTHING to do with whether or not a PVP Stalker is more or less dangerous than an AI Stalker.  It has EVERYTHING to with with the fact that another player made the *choice* to be the Stalker at all.  Yes, there is a chance that some people will choose to be the Stalker and then intentionally "throw the match" by not attacking people.  It's not very *likely* and it's certainly not going to be the normal outcome.

The Stalker is still the Stalker. If you accept that he's there to kill you as an AI, you can also accept that he's there to kill you (for the most part) as a player as well. Nothing changes in that area. Plus, you're at no higher chance of being targeted by a player than you are by the AI. The chance is still low because there's more than just you showing up on he list of marked Tenno. It's not all about "EmberStar is marked and needs to be hunted". It also doesn't care about what you have equipped or not. Stalker can show up when you have a full loadout, he can show when you have 1 mastery fodder weapon equipped, that has no say in what you'll go against with Stalker. There *is intent* with AI stalker too. Programmed or not, he's there to shoot you in the face with his bow and kunai, tell me how the *intent to kill* isn't a thing when its specifically designed to "kill this person because they killed a boss". 

But you've literally shown your hand that you're hanging onto this game by a thread by not participating in PVE content because you can't handle some internet hate mail that holds no merit to anyone but those who choose to take it to heart, on top of that you've told us that you refuse to deal with Syndicates, which is completely PVE as well with their own "stalker" system that's extremely easy to deal with (unless you piss off New Loka I hear). That's literally no one's issue but your own and Stalker mode is the least of your worries if that's the case.

 

[EmberStar]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

 

Like I said, you don't get it.  Won't get it.  And I'm done talking to you.

[Gamma745]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

 

Seriously, he just doesn't want to play PvP. It's just a matter of taste. Just because you're okay with it doesn't mean everyone have to be okay with it.

[WrathAscending]

10 hours ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

The fact that the mode's existence is enough to make you quit a 99% pve game? That's talking like the game was holding you by a thread to begin with and the slightest thing would've made you quit anyways. And just the area of "possibly" being invaded by Stalker (AI or PVP) which your rates would still be as low as they are now just with more effort needed on your part than to shoot him in the face and move on with your day as its been for the last 3 years? Besides, the addition of a Stalker mode doesn't suddenly make Warframe a "pvp game". A "PVP" game is something like Smite, Crossout, DC Universe, etc. Those are PVP games, Warframe is not especially even if a Stalker mode is added it will still be a 99% PVE game.

Some of us are only here for the PVE content. And the moment PVPers gain the ability to take PVP out of Conclave into the wider game, without an opt-out mechanic, the rest of the game stops being PVE. It becomes PVE and PVP, I do not want to play that kind of Warframe, and I do not believe the power to change my gaming experience from PVE-only multiplayer to PVP any time, any where should rest in the hands of PVP players. It takes away the 99% PVE and reduces it to 0%.

10 hours ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

You could say the same thing about the AI enemies, they're ALL pointing guns at you deliberately targeting you to attack. 

Yes, and they're also AI, not other players. If we want to fight AI, we should be able to fight AI. If we want to fight other players, there's a place to go and do that. Conclave. We're choosing not to.

6 hours ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

And you wish to call everyone who uses the mode a "PVP" player. So are you saying that PVE players who might be bored and try out the mode are suddenly PVP players?

It is one player entering another player's game to attempt to kill another player while both try not to die. Player versus player, if you will. And I'm pretty sure that's what PVP stands for.

6 hours ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

The AI Stalker is an AI enemy as well. He exists with the *intent* to kill you. And there are more games than you obviously don't know about that don't have pvp as a central focus of their games, you just haven't tried to look for them especially since you're playing on PC. I play one myself that has both pvp and pve and they're completely separate from each other unless you choose to participate (minus select titles to wear).

For a start, PC gaming has plenty more options for games than console gaming offers, and more that don't have PVP. Secondly, Warframe has separated PVP and PVE confent after the problems caused by Rail Conflicts, which again had more controls than what we've seen of Stalker Mode to date or the controls you've suggested thus far and which were opt-in only for those who wanted to particpate. Having even Rail Conflict spill over into PVE turned out to be massively detrimental to the game as a whole, and a mode that offers greater potential for griefing can only be worse.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If Stalker Mode is consensual only and does not offer any mechanical or item rewards that can't be obtained by fighting the normal stalker? Nobody will have an issue with it. Zip. Zilch. None. I might prefer they spend the development time on other things, but it would bother me precisely as much as it does when a lacklustre weapon is added; I shrug and get on with my own thing. But gating PVE content behind PVP and allowing PVPers to determine whether I get to play PVE or PVP? Not cool with me, I'm afraid.

 

 

Edited July 18, 2017 by WrathAscending

[Jackviator]

(Whoops accidental post)

Edited July 27, 2017 by Jackviator

[(PSN)primethief147]

Me and most of the people I have talked to about this mode think it's a great idea as long as there is an option to opt out. 

Edited July 27, 2017 by (PS4)primethief147

[VoidArkhangel]

I think... what about a gamemode that deppends of your range? i mean if you are a gold tiger you can enter on the mode but if you are a silver seeker you can't that will prevent the fact to see a noob stalker. Sorry if you don't understand me, English isn't my original language ':S

[VoidArkhangel]

And if you think that way, the ''Be The Stalker'' mode will be revolutionary! take a look on the other games, any of the other games gives you the chance to play as an enemy (sandbox games dont have importance) it will the first game free 2 play that will allows you to play as a boss without using mods or even another games.