Hey DE, let’s make the Nami Skyla Prime the first channeling focused melee weapon & introduce it with buffed channeling mods

[Halisi]

Wouldn’t it be cool if channeling were viable? Are you excited about the Nami Skyla Prime? I know I am, and everytime I look at those sexy dual swords I think about what stats it might have. I wonder if it could be a crit weapon, or a status weapon, is it going to be an op spin to win melee, a hybrid maybe? That’s kinda boring at this point. So I had a thought. Ya know, this would be really cool as a channeling melee. And the more I think about it, the more it really does look like a channeling weapon to me. If such a thing were to exist.

So I took a look at some channeling mod numbers I had already been theorycrafting, and that was that. I started pouring into the warframe wiki. Theorycrafting in full swing, and this is what I came up with.

Right here I have some sample stats for a possible Nami Skyla Prime spread:
 

Spoiler

 

Nami Skyla Prime

Attack Speed: 1.17

Channeling Cost: 7
Channeling Damage: 2.5

Critical Chance: 15%
Critical Multiplier: 2.0
Status: 15.0%

Physical Damage: 85.0
Impact: 15.0
Puncture: 30.0
Slash: 40.0

 

Plus sample mod numbers and a new channeling mod to spice things up.
 

Spoiler

 

“I feel that all channeling mods should become five rank rare mods. Also Furious Assail should have Hydroid Prime wielding the Nami Skyla Prime as the picture obviously.”

Corrupt Charge: +240% Channeling DMG, -80% Channeling Efficiency

True Punishment: +240% Critical Chance, -60% Channeling Efficiency

Enduring Strike: +300% Status Chance, -60% Channeling Efficiency

Quickening: +55% Attack Speed, -40% Channeling Efficiency

Focused Defense: +100% Armor but -140% Channeling Efficiency while channeling

“New” Furious Assail (Rare 5 Rank): +100% Channeling Efficiency, -80% Channeling DMG

 

First I’ll explain my thought process behind the mod numbers, and how they relate to the various melee weapons. Then I’ll go into how these theoretical Nami Skyla stats would make the weapon work with these mods and why I chose these stats. 

Channeling Mods

The goal with this is what I always imagine the original goal with channeling was. Granting your melee weapon massive amounts of power at the cost of your warframe energy. Thus limiting this to short bursts, or even, more moderate power that is more easily sustained. Also I don’t see this as power creep. As channeling comes with a cost. There are obvious exploits, but even then you’re still utilizing your melee weapon instead of aoe nukes. So this introduces more mod choices to the general. Without introducing power creep that affects anyone besides hardcore endurance runners, possibly.

With this in mind. The high stat numbers on the mods should quickly make sense. Using these mods takes up a weapon slot, and incurs an energy cost on “each” strike while channeling. So, the effects should allow the mods to stand on their own as powerful mods that you can make builds around, and viable choices for a slot. Also keep in mind that Warframe is a very complex game number wise. Different systems use different formulas for calculating damage.

40% status chance with an energy cost is useless when you have dual stat status mods and weeping wounds. But 300% status chance allows even low base status melee weapons to have a respectable status chance. It would also grant high base status chance melee weapons an easier path to 100% status, at a cost. Remember, you have to channel to get this effect and there are situations where you either cannot or will not channel.

Also, the channeling costs shouldn’t be much more than what you already see here. I have only slightly changed some of the costs. Considering each attack with your melee weapon while channeling will drain anywhere from 1-25+ energy depending on your mod setup. This adds up fast even if your weapon just takes 1 energy per melee strike. These numbers also work with the assumption that all melee weapons will someday, each have varying channeling costs/multipliers. Which is another thing to keep in mind.

The gameplay and customization possibilities would explode with channeling mod stats similar to this. You could use one mod to bolster a weapons good stats without too much channeling investment. You could make an actual channeling build. You could also conpletely change how a weapon feels with the various options that would open up.

Nami Skyla Prime

So first off. You would think that a fast melee weapon would probably work better with a low channeling cost/multiplier. That is another way you could go. However, I think the Nami Skyla P would be more interesting as a weapon with moderate stats and a high channeling multiplier. With Furious Assail being the poster child mod of this weapon.

With these stats. You could use Furious Assail and killing blow to allow sustained channeling with a “2.4x” multiplier behind you? Or you could combine the various channeling mods together to give the weapon short, but extreme bursts of power. Imagine turning this modest weapon into a status abuser, dps crit melee, a good hybrid, or just a pure channeling monster. Its viability in extreme scaling situations 200+ might be questionable, I don’t know yet. But it would surely be a fun weapon for anything sub 150.

The channeling multiplier is the primary stat for this theoretical weapon, and the stat that differentiates it from say the dual kamas prime. Which it would be nearly indentical to without this stat. If only slightly better. The channeling multiplier makes it a better weapon if they’re both using a channeling build. While being a different weapon without a channeling build.

I also chose 1.17 attack speed because it’s an above average attack speed. Which fits the sleek form and slim blades. I also consider dual swords to have an agile versatile feel to them. Represented by the 15% for status/crit stats. Which are quite modest numbers for these stats. However, going higher than that would prevent this weapon from feeling like a channeling focused weapon. That is to say, I feel that the crit/status stats should be more supplementary while still being usuable.

Then there’s the ips values. I figured this weapon would feel good with slash and puncture as the main stats. Rather than the original Nami Skyla’s slash focused ips spread. Also I didn’t notice this until after I had decided on the numbers. But the slash/puncture could represent the two blades. One being longer and more slash focused, with the other being smaller and more suitable to stabbing something. I wanted the Nami Skyla P to feel good by itself and be a decent weapon, that then grows in power exponentially while channeling. Even more so than other weapons. The 2.5 multiplier coupled with a 1.17 attack speed would make this weapon as vicious as it is beautiful.

A build like: Primed Pressure Point, Killing Blow, Enduring Strike, Enduring Affliction, Furious Assail, Healing Return, Virulent Scourge, & Vicious Frost. Would be amazingly fun on this theoretical Nami Skyla Prime. It also shows an example of the kinds of mods that would now work because of channeling being viable. Dispatch Overdrive, Quickening, Primed Fury, Berserker, Furious Assail, and 1.17 attack speed anyone? 

Conclusion

At the end of the day these are just sample number for DE to have an idea where I think things should go, and the product of my excitement/passion for Warframe. I sincerely hope that the ideas presented here are at least considered and given a place in the pipeline. Channeling has always been an exciting system to me and it makes me sad that it isn’t getting any attention despite all of the gameplay possibilities it would open up. I'm also sure the Nami Skyla will be cool regardless of what stats it eventually ends up with.

I think it would be really cool for the Dev's to do this as it would make the Hydroid prime release even more exciting. What do my fellow players think? Also number suggestions are welcome. Theory crafting this took a lot of research. But it's still easy to miss stuff due to the complexity of the numbers in Warframe.

[Teridax68]

To start, I congratulate you on putting a lot of thought and effort into this. We don't have many channelling-oriented weapons in the game, and having one that would make channelling feel truly strong could be a great opportunity to introduce an additional viable build type for melee weapons, besides the usual crit/damage/status trifecta.

With that said, I personally would like to see channelling removed from the game, as I think it is actively detrimental to the power of melee combat. The problem with systems like channelling and the combo counter is that they look like they make melee weapons more powerful, but the reality is that they force the base damage output of melee weapons to be too low, and only then eventually ramp up to acceptable levels with additional busywork. The only reason melee has managed to stay competitive relative to guns right now, for example, is because of Blood Rush, as well as its abusive interaction with Maiming Strike and slide-heavy weapons like the Atterax.

In the end, there might be some cool fantasy behind the idea of infusing a melee weapon with your warframe's power, but that would be better off as a specialized mechanic on a specific weapon, or set of weapons, as currently channelling just provides a damage buff, which isn't particularly interesting, nor does its energy drain really present compelling gameplay. Removing channelling, and buffing the base damage of melee weapons in compensation, would be a step towards making melee combat naturally more viable relative to gunplay at higher levels. If quick-melee needs to have its strength curbed, it would be better to impose a damage penalty to quick-melee strikes (which would make functional sense, too) rather than gimp melee weapons as a whole.

[RagingGrizzly]

This, plus turning channeling into a toggle that drains per second instead of drain per hit.

That would help channeling a lot, I would imagine.

[Halisi]

@Teridax68 I understand why you feel that way. But, I think you may be looking at it the wrong way.

As it stands now, the base stats of most melee weapons are powerful enough for the officially supported enemy level range of 1-100. I might be off on how many in general since I don't use everything though. Anyway, the combo counter is mostly a damage scaling feature for enemies for the high end of and beyond that level range, and channeling right now is just a supplementary system. I don't feel that either system forces weapons to be weak simply because they exist.

Even with buffed channeling mods, weapons with good crit/status won't need channeling in order to be good. But they would become better with channeling, at a cost. Of course certain channeling melees would want to have more moderate stats to make up for the channeling boost. But all channeling focused melees wouldn't have to go that route. Also melee is generally superior to guns save for a few outliers, zarr, tigris (+Sancti/Prime), sobek, strun wraith, because of the new systems and mods that came with them.

I would like to convince you that you're wrong about channeling being nothing more than a conditional damage buff. I feel this way because of many mods that have come out since channeling was introduced, that the buffs I described above would make viable. Mods like healing return, enduring affliction, dispatch overdrive, focused defense, etc. The massive raw stats that better channeling mods provide would allow these conditional mods to actually be useful if you build around them. They all provide gameplay changing bonuses.

Healing return, comboed with a status build and enduring affliction allows you to use channeling to create a sustained heal while burning down an enemy. Dispatch overdrive is a fun mod already, and channeling becoming a viable build option would give it a place on so many different builds. You could just zip from enemy to enemy while energy pulsates through your weapon, and your enemies dissipate into particles. Now imagine furious assail and focused defense coming together. You could literally make a defensive melee tanking build again. I doubt people wouldn't be able to give it damage output too.

Those are just 3 examples of build types that could be made, and their would be multiple ways to go about making each one. Depending on your weapon and personal preferences. That's just scratching the surface too. You could just use one mod to pump up a good stat without actually building around channeling. If you still have doubts, I could literally talk about the possibilities all day XD!

 

5 hours ago, PUR3K1LL3R said:

This, plus turning channeling into a toggle that drains per second instead of drain per hit.

That would help channeling a lot, I would imagine.

I think the qol improvement this would generate is debatable. Especially considering it would require the system to be redesigned, rather than changing around mod numbers. Which I imagine is a simpler task. There's also the consideration that you can already achieve a 1 energy cost for channeling. Which is essentially the same thing but better since it doesn't constantly drain your energy. Plus with a mod like furious assail, you could  achieve +200% channeling efficiency in one build. What do you think with that in mind?

[RagingGrizzly]

4 hours ago, Halisi said:

I think the qol improvement this would generate is debatable. Especially considering it would require the system to be redesigned, rather than changing around mod numbers. Which I imagine is a simpler task. There's also the consideration that you can already achieve a 1 energy cost for channeling. Which is essentially the same thing but better since it doesn't constantly drain your energy. Plus with a mod like furious assail, you could  achieve +200% channeling efficiency in one build. What do you think with that in mind?

Some weapons have multi-strike attacks with single animations, and even with 1 cost per hit, you're still doing to lose a lot of energy if the enemy is a sponge. Also, I doubt that 200% is going to matter completely when with no matter how much efficiency there is, still probably going to be capped at 1 instead of 0. (Kind of like energy efficiency)

Also, think about the casters (They have to spam to stay alive, using up a lot of energy) and warframes like Excalibur, Wukong, etc. They can't acquire energy (Except for energy orbs, if my memory serves me) while channeling their ultimates, and having channeling mods that turn it into 1 per hit (Especially when there will most likely be no room for these mods) is still gonna hit em hard, and it'll hit em harder at higher levels.

[Teridax68]

5 hours ago, Halisi said:

As it stands now, the base stats of most melee weapons are powerful enough for the officially supported enemy level range of 1-100. I might be off on how many in general since I don't use everything though. Anyway, the combo counter is mostly a damage scaling feature for enemies for the high end of and beyond that level range, and channeling right now is just a supplementary system. I don't feel that either system forces weapons to be weak simply because they exist.

Guns do not need a combo counter to be strong beyond level 100, and before that there is a noticeable difference in power. My Vaykor Marelok is fully Forma'd, for example, yet has many mods that aren't fully ranked, and can still one-shot a high-level Heavy Gunner, with a headshot + crit + viral combo (which happens fairly often, due to the gun's high stats). By contrast, my fully Forma'd Galatine Prime, one of the most powerful melee weapons in the game, using fully maxed rare mods, including Primed Fury, Primed Pressure Point, Blood Rush, etc. requires multiple hits just to get through a basic enemy at those same levels.

You can easily see the difference through the weapon's base stats and mods, too: the Vaykor Marelok has only 5 less base damage than the Galatine Prime (160 vs. 165), but  has more status chance (35% vs. 20%) alongside the same crit chance (20%). When you add mods, the gap becomes significantly wider: Hornet Strike provides a far more significant damage increase than even Primed Pressure Point for the same mod energy cost (220% vs. 165%), and Barrel Diffusion + Lethal Torrent together provide 180% multishot, which equates to not only a 180% multiplicative damage increase, but an increase to the weapon's status chance by the same amount as well, none of which any melee weapon can access. I'm not simply speaking from opinion or personal experience here, melee weapons are demonstrably weaker than guns, and a similar comparison could be drawn between melee weapons and shotguns or rifles. Mechanics like channelling, the combo counter, etc. are all crutches to bring melee up to par (notice how only sniper rifles and melee weapons are given a combo counter), and there's a valid reason why many players have been complaining about melee being sub-par, and channelling being weak and uninteresting, for a very long time now.

As I mentioned in my first post here, I'm perfectly fine with channelling being featured on a weapon or weapon set, but imposing it on every weapon out there just drives their power down (it's a bonus every melee weapon has, and is therefore balanced against). I also question the gameplay of channelling mods even if they were substantially buffed: sure, Life Strike is good if you're low on health and have your melee weapon fully out, but even with effects like that and Focus Energy, Enduring Strike, Dispatch Overdrive, etc., all of the gameplay behind channelling revolves around holding down a button for more stats on your melee weapon. You could easily add all of these effects as conditional buffs to base melee combat, and there would be no loss in gameplay. 

[NightmareT12]

I think they should use the Wraith line to test the channeling stuff, as the Furax Wraith were the first ones to feature a difference. Once they've kind of narrowed something down we could have Primes use better channeling efficiency (why not, they are Orokin craft after all) and improve based on that.

[Halisi]

 

4 hours ago, PUR3K1LL3R said:

Some weapons have multi-strike attacks with single animations, and even with 1 cost per hit, you're still doing to lose a lot of energy if the enemy is a sponge. Also, I doubt that 200% is going to matter completely when with no matter how much efficiency there is, still probably going to be capped at 1 instead of 0. (Kind of like energy efficiency)

Also, think about the casters (They have to spam to stay alive, using up a lot of energy) and warframes like Excalibur, Wukong, etc. They can't acquire energy (Except for energy orbs, if my memory serves me) while channeling their ultimates, and having channeling mods that turn it into 1 per hit (Especially when there will most likely be no room for these mods) is still gonna hit em hard, and it'll hit em harder at higher levels.

Being able to get a 0 energy cost would defeat the purpose of channeling in the first place. Also, casters don't have to use a channeling build on their melee. Making a channeling build would be situational based on your melee/warframe choice. Also the entire point of better channeling mods is to make them worthy of a slot.

 

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Guns do not need a combo counter to be strong beyond level 100, and before that there is a noticeable difference in power. My Vaykor Marelok is fully Forma'd, for example, yet has many mods that aren't fully ranked, and can still one-shot a high-level Heavy Gunner, with a headshot + crit + viral combo (which happens fairly often, due to the gun's high stats). By contrast, my fully Forma'd Galatine Prime, one of the most powerful melee weapons in the game, using fully maxed rare mods, including Primed Fury, Primed Pressure Point, Blood Rush, etc. requires multiple hits just to get through a basic enemy at those same levels.

You can easily see the difference through the weapon's base stats and mods, too: the Vaykor Marelok has only 5 less base damage than the Galatine Prime (160 vs. 165), but  has more status chance (35% vs. 20%) alongside the same crit chance (20%). When you add mods, the gap becomes significantly wider: Hornet Strike provides a far more significant damage increase than even Primed Pressure Point for the same mod energy cost (220% vs. 165%), and Barrel Diffusion + Lethal Torrent together provide 180% multishot, which equates to not only a 180% multiplicative damage increase, but an increase to the weapon's status chance by the same amount as well, none of which any melee weapon can access. I'm not simply speaking from opinion or personal experience here, melee weapons are demonstrably weaker than guns, and a similar comparison could be drawn between melee weapons and shotguns or rifles. Mechanics like channelling, the combo counter, etc. are all crutches to bring melee up to par (notice how only sniper rifles and melee weapons are given a combo counter), and there's a valid reason why many players have been complaining about melee being sub-par, and channelling being weak and uninteresting, for a very long time now.

As I mentioned in my first post here, I'm perfectly fine with channelling being featured on a weapon or weapon set, but imposing it on every weapon out there just drives their power down (it's a bonus every melee weapon has, and is therefore balanced against). I also question the gameplay of channelling mods even if they were substantially buffed: sure, Life Strike is good if you're low on health and have your melee weapon fully out, but even with effects like that and Focus Energy, Enduring Strike, Dispatch Overdrive, etc., all of the gameplay behind channelling revolves around holding down a button for more stats on your melee weapon. You could easily add all of these effects as conditional buffs to base melee combat, and there would be no loss in gameplay. 

You are wrong on that last point. Channeling isn't simply holding down a button for more stats. It's a calculated choice. If you channel you are diverting your energy to bolster your melee weapon in various ways. Instead of using your powers, or saving your energy for quick thinking. It is a mechanic that could be built around. Do I jack up my stats in exchange for massive energy drain at short intervals, or do I build for a low channeling cost for more sustained benefits and gameplay effects. It would also affect warframe builds. You could make a dedicated melee build that focuses on survivability, mobility, max energy pool, etc. Rather than build towards your powers.

The gameplay benefits are there if you want to see them. However, I get the impression that you aren't interested in channeling as a system. Rather than thinking it isn't a good one in first place. Something not for you. I get that, but I don't think removing channeling from weapons is a good solution. But rather have some melees with better general stats and extremely weak channeling stats. So that the effect is negligible, but still there.

Finally I don't feel that systems like channeling, and the combo counter are simply crutches. They are gameplay systems that create engagement. Guns may be more powerful in and of themselves. But they aren't as interesting as using a melee weapon, and at the end of the day are drastically weaker than melee weapons once you do factor in the combo counter which has extreme levels of scaling. Guns are powerful, but eventually they will stop scaling before melees do. If we are going to talk about 100+ content then this can't, not be considered.

The ultimate objective of a game is creating fun and engaging core gameplay. Not facilitating pure efficiency for the sake of, without any gameplay tied to it. Like I said, guns are good. But there is little to no engagement when using guns right now. Aim and shoot is about it right now. Mods with special effects are few and far between. They are also generally weak, extremely situational, or unsatisfying to use. There are fun guns to use. But those are mostly weaker than basic raw damage weapons like secondaries, shotguns, and launchers.

[Teridax68]

25 minutes ago, Halisi said:

You are wrong on that last point. Channeling isn't simply holding down a button for more stats. It's a calculated choice. If you channel you are diverting your energy to bolster your melee weapon in various ways. Instead of using your powers, or saving your energy for quick thinking. It is a mechanic that could be built around. Do I jack up my stats in exchange for massive energy drain at short intervals, or do I build for a low channeling cost for more sustained benefits and gameplay effects. It would also affect warframe builds. You could make a dedicated melee build that focuses on survivability, mobility, max energy pool, etc. Rather than build towards your powers.

From experience, and the experience of the teammates I've seen use the mechanic, it really isn't a calculated choice. Much like energy usage on warframes themselves, the choice boils down to either spamming the effect when the user's full on energy, or simply not using it at all otherwise. It cannot be a "calculated choice" when you are making that "choice" every attack for a mediocre damage boost, and unless you are proposing to up both the cost in addition to the power of channeling, it will always remain an additional button press for more persistent power.

Also, I have absolutely no desire to gimp my warframe just to make melee combat worthwhile. Again, melee combat should be viable on its own, not something you have to gear towards just so that it can be strong, and to propose overarching, melee-specific builds on warframes is an implicit admission that melee combat as a system is currently behind guns.

 

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The gameplay benefits are there if you want to see them. However, I get the impression that you aren't interested in channeling as a system. Rather than thinking it isn't a good one in first place. Something not for you. I get that, but I don't think removing channeling from weapons is a good solution. But rather have some melees with better general stats and extremely weak channeling stats. So that the effect is negligible, but still there.

Notice that I am still advocating for channeling to exist on some weapons, including perhaps guns, whereas you want to keep it on every melee weapon simply because you personally see some potential in the mechanic. If you really want players to enjoy channeling, sure, I'm with you there, but what you're proposing is to keep imposing it on every melee weapon, which is detrimental to most players who favor melee combat.

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Finally I don't feel that systems like channeling, and the combo counter are simply crutches. They are gameplay systems that create engagement. Guns may be more powerful in and of themselves. But they aren't as interesting as using a melee weapon, and at the end of the day are drastically weaker than melee weapons once you do factor in the combo counter which has extreme levels of scaling. Guns are powerful, but eventually they will stop scaling before melees do. If we are going to talk about 100+ content then this can't, not be considered.

Sure, if you attack literally hundreds of times consecutively, with a base counter duration of 3 seconds, you'll start approaching gun-based damage, and if you cheese with Blood Rush + Maiming Strike and an Atterax you'll get there faster, but one situation simply isn't realistic, whereas the other relies purely on an abusive effect. Blood Rush itself is a tremendously cheesy mod, and is the sole reason why melee is even capable of catching up to guns right now. Melee is weaker than ranged right now, point blank. I personally find melee to be tremendously enjoyable, which is why I was drawn to this thread, but I don't want to rely on systems that, for me and many other players, create negative engagement, in order to not fall behind ranged combat.

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The ultimate objective of a game is creating fun and engaging core gameplay. Not facilitating pure efficiency for the sake of, without any gameplay tied to it. Like I said, guns are good. But there is little to no engagement when using guns right now. Aim and shoot is about it right now. Mods with special effects are few and far between. They are also generally weak, extremely situational, or unsatisfying to use. There are fun guns to use. But those are mostly weaker than basic raw damage weapons like secondaries, shotguns, and launchers.

Your subjective assessment of guns is not shared by most players, particularly since "aiming and shooting" has been the basis of one of the most successful gaming genres out there, and particularly since guns in Warframe tend to have far more variation in what they do compared to melee weapons. If your assessment is that melee would be bland without channelling and the combo counter, then the real problem is that melee is bland (I personally disagree) and should be adjusted from the ground up, not by adding on extra systems to "fix" it, as has so often been done in the game, always unsuccessfully.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Teridax68

[(PSN)MrNishi]

37 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

From experience, and the experience of the teammates I've seen use the mechanic, it really isn't a calculated choice. Much like energy usage on warframes themselves, the choice boils down to either spamming the effect when the user's full on energy, or simply not using it at all otherwise. It cannot be a "calculated choice" when you are making that "choice" every attack for a mediocre damage boost, and unless you are proposing to up both the cost in addition to the power of channeling, it will always remain an additional button press for more persistent power.

Also, I have absolutely no desire to gimp my warframe just to make melee combat worthwhile. Again, melee combat should be viable on its own, not something you have to gear towards just so that it can be strong, and to propose overarching, melee-specific builds on warframes is an implicit admission that melee combat as a system is currently behind guns.

 

....

Sure, if you attack literally hundreds of times consecutively, with a base counter duration of 3 seconds, you'll start approaching gun-based damage, and if you cheese with Blood Rush + Maiming Strike and an Atterax you'll get there faster, but one situation simply isn't realistic, whereas the other relies purely on an abusive effect. Blood Rush itself is a tremendously cheesy mod, and is the sole reason why melee is even capable of catching up to guns right now. Melee is weaker than ranged right now, point blank. ...

I can't agree that Blood Rush is the sole Reason Melee is able with being on Par with Guns.

Nor can I agree that Melee is weaker than Ranged, Point Blank

^That is not an absolute fact.

The fact that Covert Lethality will 1shot a high level enemy faster than a Gun would make that statement false.

 

Covert Lethality would be one of those niche Melee mechanics as is the Stealth Multiplier or Finisher attacks, but those do not need Blood Rush to make melee viable.

Besides Covert Lethality Daggers, the 2-handed heavy Blade that I see used frequently "Zenistar" does not rely on Blood Rush either.

(Also does not need Maiming Strike)*

 

In my experience the worst Melee weapon is better than the worst Gun(s) because of aforementioned Melee combat mechanics.

(Machete, Halikur, regular Lecta will perform better than a Lato, Magnus, Lex, Baliistica, Vasto, Bolto, Castana, etc.. or Even Embolist against 20 lvl 100+ Bombards   If the melee weapons are being used in conjunction with Stealth Multiplier or Finisher attacks)

The worst Guns would have to outperform the worst Melee. For guns to just be better.

Right now for most current content Guns are better, especially with Small target ranged objectives (Boss Weakpoints or Puzzle hit plates/targets)

On the extreme ends such as early game content, and killing endless scaling enemies: Beginner Melee easily outpaces the beginner Gun weapons especially if a player choose Excalibur to start.

On the high-end Ivara kills enemies at the same steady pace regardless of Armor by just 1-shotting with Covert Lethality.

 

You mentioned gimping a Warframe Build to make Melee viable, but for some Warframes it can be seen as the opposite. Trying to make Ivara Prowl Friendly for a gun build means more compromises than just doing a Melee focused build. Same can be said for other easy Stealth Multiplier frames: Excalibur, Loki, Ash, Valkyr, (Octavia can Excel at both Gun and Melee without compromise, same with WuKong & Nidus)

There are a lot of Guns and Melee weapons that are not worth the effort to make Sortie Viable. (Heck entire Melee weapon classes that are just 'Maximum Effort's)

 

As for the topic of Channeling Weapons:

I actually think @Halisi has the numbers a little too low given the Channeling Energy cost. (Would be different(nice*) if Warframe Efficiency mods affected Channeling melee weapon cost; especially since there are channel blocking mods that are Warframe Mods and not directly Melee weapon mods.)

I do agree that it works it would be nice to have Channeling Focused Weapons and I would like to promote the Glaive-class as worthy for Channeling emphasis. (As far as I know that is the only Melee weapon class with a unique Channeling effect for the whole class)

 

 

[Halisi]

@Teridax68 So you just want melee to be good, with neither of these systems attached. What exactly would that entail to you? If you don't mind me asking. Do you have an idea for how melee could be interesting with any systems that don't create negative engagement? Or do you think melee simply should just have a certain level of stats and no systems attached at all? I'm having trouble seeing what your ideas for melee are.

I want all melee weapons to have channeling to some extent not just because I see potential in the system. But because removing channeling on some weapons would agitate some of the playerbase. Some people love channeling, and it would be jarring to only have the ability on a handful of weapons after having it on every weapon.

Also, my comments on guns not being engaging is coming from the perspective of someone studying to be a game designer. Guns do feel nice, but there isn't much positive reinforcement I might say. To elaborate; when you reload you just press a button and a static animation plays, there isn't any major hit feedback, numbers don't exactly have the kind of punch that a crisp sound and a well designed icon or reticule centered alert has, you can't sprint and shoot at the same time, traditional guns like assault rifles don't have any gameplay systems tied to them, not enough guns have innate conditional effects aka the dual toxocyst or hema.

Basically, limited agility while shooting, an absence of interesting gameplay features, and a weak positive feedback loop. I wasn't trying to say that all guns were boring. But guns as a whole aren't all fun and engaging.

I also try to see things from a variety of angles. You mostly speak from a veterans point of view. Newer players and casual types generally care about options and things with strong positive feedback loops. These players won't see making a melee focused warframe build as gimping their warframe. I understand all of your points, and I think they are valid. However, the point I've been trying to make is that every player does not feel the same way you do. Just as you and a lot of other players don't feel the same that I do about this particular topic.

[Teridax68]

1 hour ago, (PS4)MrNishi said:

The fact that Covert Lethality will 1shot a high level enemy faster than a Gun would make that statement false.

Covert Lethality is an extremely niche mod that generally requires stealth to work, and otherwise relies on knockback and channelled parries, all of which are substantially slower and more complicated than typical gunplay. It's not really proof that melee is stronger than gunplay, because guns can achieve similar levels of lethality at most levels without nearly as much hassle.

56 minutes ago, Halisi said:

@Teridax68 So you just want melee to be good, with neither of these systems attached. What exactly would that entail to you? If you don't mind me asking. Do you have an idea for how melee could be interesting with any systems that don't create negative engagement? Or do you think melee simply should just have a certain level of stats and no systems attached at all? I'm having trouble seeing what your ideas for melee are.

I mean, in order for melee weapons to be as viable as ranged weapons, I think the most efficient solution would be to take out channelling and the combo counter (perhaps make those weapon-specific features), buff the base damage of melee weapons, and possibly increase the power of some of their mods, in compensation. I do believe weapons in general need to be scaled down as a means of addressing power creep, but that shouldn't be a reason to keep melee weapons weaker than guns until then. This would be a simple change that would, at worst, generate very little negative engagement, as both channeling and extended combo hits aren't popular, and at best generate more engagement by simply making melee combat feel better to use from the get-go.

This pretty much resumes my opinion on bringing melee weapons up to par with guns, but I also do have opinions on how melee could be made more interesting, which could be a separate discussion in itself. For example, I think stances should not be separate from melee weapons, and each melee weapon should have its own stance, which would define its playstyle. I also want to simplify stances a little into a quick hit/heavy hit dichotomy to make them clearer and easier to use for the first time, while still being difficult to master, but that's straying a little too far from the main point.

56 minutes ago, Halisi said:

But because removing channeling on some weapons would agitate some of the playerbase. Some people love channeling, and it would be jarring to only have the ability on a handful of weapons after having it on every weapon.

"Let's not do this because change might upset some players" is a cop-out excuse that can be applied to literally every change out there, and will always be vacuously true because at least a handful of players is bound to dislike any development. Just look at the players still complaining about Parkour 2.0.

I also proposed several times in this thread to potentially keep channeling as a mechanic on some (but not all) weapons. If a player is a fan of channeling, they'll have a weapon set entirely dedicated to their tastes, while those who aren't fans of channeling (and there are more of those than the former) can enjoy weapons that don't feature the effect.

56 minutes ago, Halisi said:

Also, my comments on guns not being engaging is coming from the perspective of someone studying to be a game designer. Guns do feel nice, but there isn't much positive reinforcement I might say. To elaborate; when you reload you just press a button and a static animation plays, there isn't any major hit feedback, numbers don't exactly have the kind of punch that a crisp sound and a well designed icon or reticule centered alert has, you can't sprint and shoot at the same time, traditional guns like assault rifles don't have any gameplay systems tied to them, not enough guns have innate conditional effects aka the dual toxocyst or hema.

Speaking as someone also trying to start a career in game design, I completely disagree that guns don't offer "positive reinforcement": pointing at a target, aiming and taking them down is not only positive reinforcement, but one of the strongest forms of positive reinforcement in gaming, which is, again, why a very successful and prolific genre got built around that very simple loop. I agree that we could use more diverse effects, particularly in a sci-fi game like Warframe, but we already do have quite a variety of quirky guns, such as the Quanta, the Miter, the Opticor, etc. I agree to some extent that numbers themselves aren't especially interesting in a shooter, which is also why I'm not at all a fan of status/crit chance, but guns themselves really are intrinsically fun to use, including in Warframe.

56 minutes ago, Halisi said:

I also try to see things from a variety of angles. You mostly speak from a veterans point of view. Newer players and casual types generally care about options and things with strong positive feedback loops. These players won't see making a melee focused warframe build as gimping their warframe.

New players in Warframe are still figuring out the game and making the best out of the few mods they have. The last thing they need is a poorly-conveyed mechanic on their melee weapons that adds needless complexity, and that will be too costly for them to use due to their low energy availability. They are extremely unlikely to have all the pieces or resources for a melee-focused warframe build, and by the time they do they'll likely have realized by then that the build just doesn't hold up to the others.

56 minutes ago, Halisi said:

I understand all of your points, and I think they are valid. However, the point I've been trying to make is that every player does not feel the same way you do. Just as you and a lot of other players don't feel the same that I do about this particular topic.

I am well aware that not every player feels the same way I do, but I'm trying to work towards a compromise where players who enjoy channeling (who are a minority) can still enjoy it on some weapons, while those who don't wouldn't have to suffer it. The Nami Skyla version you're suggesting could be one such example of a channel-based weapon, and could have tons of cool effects baked into it already, without the need for mods. By contrast, you're proposing to keep imposing channelling on everyone using a melee weapon, including on players who dislike it. I'm not shooting down your original suggestion, so much as proposing an alteration to it that would allow it to thrive in an environment where not everyone would need to partake in its core mechanic.

[Azamagon]

I'm just gonna chime in (aimed at @Teridax68 and @Halisi)

Teridax68:

If channeling and combo counts would go away, I think something that could truly help melee to be strong outright (along with fixing mod balancing ofc) would be to make non-spam combos WAY stronger too. Make combos worthwhile (i.e. BIG multipliers, and BIG reaches etc), then you'd have that baseline power without it all being too easy.

Halisi:

I think, while you have done a good job here with theorycrafting and such, channeling (and blocking) NEEDS a complete rehaul, if it is to be viable. For example:

• Channeling now drains energy over time (instead of per hit)
• Channeling increases melee damage (like now), but also extends melee range, reduces your damage taken by a small amount (like 30% or so) and increases your movement speed. To make it really feel like you are empowering yourself and your weapon.
• Blocking is now (similar to wall-clinging and such) on a timer (which should be visible as another depleting circle (like the reload-circle), but further outside of the reload-circle... wall-clinging etc should have the same ui-feature btw, but that's getting off-topic), but blocking now reduces all frontal damage by 100%. The timer only depletes when under fire, and regenerates when you stop blocking. Holding block when not under fire just pauses the blocking timer where it is (maybe regenerate slowly?)
• Channeling+Blocking now causes the blocking timer to not deplete when under fire, while also giving the other current channelblocking benefits it does now. However, the channeling's energy drain would be higher while attacked during channelblocking.

Now you have a basis that people can actually feel is worthwhile to build upon.

[Navarc]

I'd be more inclined to use Focused Defense, especially as hydroid if that armour were static rather than percentage. 

20 hours ago, PUR3K1LL3R said:

This, plus turning channeling into a toggle that drains per second instead of drain per hit.

That would help channeling a lot, I would imagine.

Agree with this as well, high attack rate weapons get punished real bad by channeling as of right now. It's either go slow and hit hard or don't use channeling at all.

2 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

I'm just gonna chime in (aimed at @Teridax68 and @Halisi)

Teridax68:

If channeling and combo counts would go away, I think something that could truly help melee to be strong outright (along with fixing mod balancing ofc) would be to make non-spam combos WAY stronger too. Make combos worthwhile (i.e. BIG multipliers, and BIG reaches etc), then you'd have that baseline power without it all being too easy.

Halisi:

I think, while you have done a good job here with theorycrafting and such, channeling (and blocking) NEEDS a complete rehaul, if it is to be viable. For example:

• Channeling now drains energy over time (instead of per hit)
• Channeling increases melee damage (like now), but also extends melee range, reduces your damage taken by a small amount (like 30% or so) and increases your movement speed. To make it really feel like you are empowering yourself and your weapon.
• Blocking is now (similar to wall-clinging and such) on a timer (which should be visible as another depleting circle (like the reload-circle), but further outside of the reload-circle... wall-clinging etc should have the same ui-feature btw, but that's getting off-topic), but blocking now reduces all frontal damage by 100%. The timer only depletes when under fire, and regenerates when you stop blocking. Holding block when not under fire just pauses the blocking timer where it is (maybe regenerate slowly?)
• Channeling+Blocking now causes the blocking timer to not deplete when under fire, while also giving the other current channelblocking benefits it does now. However, the channeling's energy drain would be higher while attacked during channelblocking.

Now you have a basis that people can actually feel is worthwhile to build upon.

God I miss 100% invulnerability from the front (but not against AOE, status and that kind of thing) back when stamina was a thing and Hydroid had 150 stamina instead of the 100 stamina. It's what made him viable with melee until Naramon came along and made anything viable with melee - but with Naramon finally being balanced in a couple months this could bring Hydroid back to where he once was.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Navarchus

[Halisi]

Those are some interesting ideas @Azamagon. Though I still think that channeling draining energy over time would be counter productive.

Also everyone, let's take a step back. My intention with the thread was to propose a short term solution that takes nothing away from the game and does not literally change any systems, which would require more work. Buffing these mods would take nothing away from the game and would make a portion of the playerbase happy. Channeling will exist for a while regardless and you don't have to use these mods.

That is to say, I'm trying to work with what we have now. Whether or not channeling as a whole needs a redesign is debatable depending on who you ask. But the reality is that all of the things suggested by others in this thread require much more time, resources, and energy than fixing mods which already have a negative gameplay cost and no real benefit to incurring those costs instead of simply using the normal counterparts of the mods. For example, there is literally no reason to use corrupt charge over killing blow. You can combine them, but that forces a mod with an additional negative gameplay cost to rely on a superior mod without an inherent negative gameplay cost in order to be useful.

Also, buffing mod cards does not mean that the system can't still be changed in the future.

@Teridax68 Regardless of how you feel about channeling/combo multipliers, they exist. Do you disagree that buffing these mods would take nothing away from the gameplay simply by virtue of them existing in more powerful forms? With the assumption that DE will not change any systems related to melee anytime soon?

Also point, aim, shoot is not one of the strongest positive reinforcements in gaming in and of itself. It's all of the little things that happen alongside it that makes it so strong. Let's say I throw a glass mug at a wall. My arm winds up and flings the cup. Sending it barreling through the air until it crashes into the wall with a satisfying sound as pieces fall to the ground. You can see an indent in the wall from where it was struck, and pieces of it join the shattered cup on the ground. Now imagine that, only my arm doesn't move. The cup simply flies out of my hand in a straight line and poofs out of existence alongside the wall upon touching it. That is guns in warframe. There are effects, but they are lackluster.

Gun's can have so much more going on to them, but don't in warframe. And that is a criticism of the entire game, not just guns. I can and probably will make a thread about it. Because I have more to say than can possibly said in this thread. I also have little interest in continuing this line of conversation in this particular thread.

[Noabettiet]

While i am among the people who advocates for better channeling mods for melee and good melee for channeling mods, i think channeling buffs should be given to weapons who have no specialty in either critical, status or both.

Edit: As it turns out, channeling is often like that stat that acts a "support stat" to improve the already existing stats. Would be great if it had a more direct affect in weapons with high damage output/attack rate, so that pure physical weapons would earn a spot light.

The amount of channeling mods variety is also laughable small, it feels like DE didn't know what to do with it. However i do enjoy the sneaky buff on channeling mods for rivens.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Noabettiet

[Teridax68]

10 hours ago, Halisi said:

Regardless of how you feel about channeling/combo multipliers, they exist. Do you disagree that buffing these mods would take nothing away from the gameplay simply by virtue of them existing in more powerful forms? With the assumption that DE will not change any systems related to melee anytime soon?

Buffing these mods and adding new channelling mods is a proposed change to a melee-related system, though, one that aims to perpetuate channelling as a general mechanic, rather than one tied to specific weapons. Removing channelling as a general system would mean removing these mods and the work that went into them, which would be wasteful.

To reiterate, I am perfectly okay with all of the channelling effects you propose being innate to your version of the Nami Skyla Prime and other channel-focused weapons. If the change you proposed was simply to add more unique buffs to certain weapons when channelled (e.g. channelling the Nami Skyle Prime could significantly buff its crit chance while reducing its status chance), I'd be fine with that because those mechanics could still be preserved in a post-channelling melee system. However, buffing channelling mods presumes that a) the game is in a state where players can afford to specialize in channelling builds (it isn't), and b) most players enjoy channelling and want it to stay (they don't), and for that reason I oppose building upon channelling as a general mechanic, even if I support it on individual weapons.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

On 7/11/2017 at 2:44 PM, Teridax68 said:

Covert Lethality is an extremely niche mod .. snipped

I mean, in order for melee weapons to be as viable as ranged weapons, I think the most efficient solution would be to take out channelling and the combo counter (perhaps make those weapon-specific features), buff the base damage of melee weapons, and possibly increase the power of some of their mods, in compensation. 

"Let's not do this because change might upset some players" is a cop-out excuse that can be applied to literally every change out there, and will always be vacuously true because at least a handful of players is bound to dislike any development. Just look at the players still complaining about Parkour 2.0.

I also proposed several times in this thread to potentially keep channeling as a mechanic on some (but not all) weapons. If a player is a fan of channeling, they'll have a weapon set entirely dedicated to their tastes, while those who aren't fans of channeling (and there are more of those than the former) can enjoy weapons that don't feature the effect.

...

I am well aware that not every player feels the same way I do, but I'm trying to work towards a compromise where players who enjoy channeling (who are a minority) can still enjoy it on some weapons, while those who don't wouldn't have to suffer it. The Nami Skyla version you're suggesting could be one such example of a channel-based weapon, and could have tons of cool effects baked into it already, without the need for mods. By contrast, you're proposing to keep imposing channelling on everyone using a melee weapon, including on players who dislike it. I'm not shooting down your original suggestion, so much as proposing an alteration to it that would allow it to thrive in an environment where not everyone would need to partake in its core mechanic.

I concur with most of the above.

I did say Covert Lethality was a niche Melee mechanic (Literally the next line after what you quoted from me.)

In regards to buffing Melee base damage, would it be fair to just buff Melee base damage by the old Stealth Multiplier of 400%, that way the current 800% Stealth Multiplier would bring back the 32x multiplier damage that was once in game for Stealth damage?

I think it is fair to say that Stealth Melee seems to be on par with Guns, so just giving a Flat 400% melee buff across the board would bring them in-line.

 

Melee Channelling:

I still stand-by my comment that the Entire Glaive-class is the only current melee weapon class that utilizes Channelling for a class-specific mechanic without need for an additional Melee mod.

•Channeling on a Throw allows manual Detonation of Glaive weapons and then the unique Orvius has Channeled Throws doing 'Vulnerable Puppet'

 

I feel Channelling could have taken a hybrid approach as far as modding.

Letting Warframe Efficiency affect Channelling Efficiency as well as Warframe Powerstrength boosting Channelling damage multiplier (Since it is Warframe energy being used to attack)

Also Channelling mods themselves could have their own Mod slot in loadout that is independent of Melee Weapon Mods.

•(This would allow Glaive specific mods to be slotted on separate Mod capacity allowing for normal Melee mods to be slotted) 

Would also allow for easier Channelling Melee changes per weapon/class in the future, as Normal Melee builds could be retained but Channelling loadout would be modded independently.

Opening up Melee weapon specific Channelling Mods or possible Warframe-Melee synergy Channelling Specific mods/Augments that further promote certain Melee/Ability interaction.

Example of Mod would be landing a Channelling weapon attack on an enemy affected by a cast ability can provide a Random buff (Thinking Lua Wall-Crack random buffs)

Channelling Mod-capacity could be limited to 2 capacity per Mastery Rank. If introduced as M 8 or higher quest, it would give players 16-60(MR 30) Channelling mod capacity (equivalent to a talent tree)

Wouldn't force anyone to have to use channeling, but can encourage them to do so.

(Like how Focus is not mandatory, but can be beneficial. Although Operator use is forced...for Kuva and Quest missions.)

 

With DE making more of a move towards traditional MMO gameplay: Dancing Emotes, Open World(semi/psuedo), weapon crafting, fishing/hunting : I feel DE has opened up the possibility of Melee Channelling becoming a separate Mod tree that benefits from both Warframe and Weapon Mods.

(Additionally it would be nice if Charged Melee Channelled attacks could register as a Ranged hit for Ranged Puzzles like in the Kela fight)*

 

[DatDarkOne]

On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 11:06 AM, (PS4)MrNishi said:

I think it is fair to say that Stealth Melee seems to be on par with Guns

As an Ivara player, this could be the main reason I never really noticed melee being weaker than guns.  For me when using Prowl it's always seemed the exact opposite. Melee has always been my goto when my Primary just wasn't getting the job done fast enough on high level enemies.  That's even considering that Prowl gives a headshot bonus that also applies to melee headshots.  hehe

On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 11:06 AM, (PS4)MrNishi said:

Melee Channelling:

I still stand-by my comment that the Entire Glaive-class is the only current melee weapon class that utilizes Channelling for a class-specific mechanic without need for an additional Melee mod.

•Channeling on a Throw allows manual Detonation of Glaive weapons and then the unique Orvius has Channeled Throws doing 'Vulnerable Puppet'

Orvius (Gas Build) is also one of if not the only melee that can Steath kill multiple enemies in a group with one channeled throw.  It's a beautiful thing. :D

[Spiral.mp4]

I don't even know how to channel, what it does or why it was ever a thing

[(PSN)MrNishi]

16 hours ago, Spiral.mp4 said:

I don't even know how to channel, what it does or why it was ever a thing

In all fairness. Channelling is sort-of a Glaive-weapon thing and mainly the mass community only used Channelling for Life-Strike Melee healing

[DatDarkOne]

2 hours ago, (PS4)MrNishi said:

In all fairness. Channelling is sort-of a Glaive-weapon thing and mainly the mass community only used Channelling for Life-Strike Melee healing

Which kinda sad in a way.  I use channeling as a damage boost on really tough enemies to kill them even quicker.  It's also damn handy for destroying enemy corpses to help keep stealth multipliers going.  

There are quite a few little details that DE put in the game that most completely miss.

[Halisi]

1 hour ago, DatDarkOne said:

Which kinda sad in a way.  I use channeling as a damage boost on really tough enemies to kill them even quicker.  It's also damn handy for destroying enemy corpses to help keep stealth multipliers going.  

There are quite a few little details that DE put in the game that most completely miss.

Channeling while blocking is also a good way to keep yourself alive when approaching a heavy unit. Bullet jump knockdowns, slam attack knock downs, parries, which is actually a really useful technique when you get the hang of it. All of those are good if you are fighting in general. There are also the various melee maneuvers that you can use that make you mobile without rendering you unable to attack. Blocking in general is just good in melee stance. You lose nothing by using it, you gain damage resistance by using it, and there are multiple ways to remain mobile while blocking.

What's makes me sad, is all of the fun and engaging elements that are already in the game that people just want DE to cut out because they don't understand or like them. Whereas I use these more obscure mechanics in all levels of content and it adds to the experience.

[DatDarkOne]

31 minutes ago, Halisi said:

What's makes me sad, is all of the fun and engaging elements that are already in the game that people just want DE to cut out because they don't understand or like them. Whereas I use these more obscure mechanics in all levels of content and it adds to the experience.

Thank you for this addition.  I get a little pissed off everytime someone suggests something like"Just remove ArchWing".  They don't even have to use it and want to deprive me of something that I enjoy.  That's the one that really bugs me.  

I will give props to OP for suggesting more weapons to utilize a game mechanic and mods to help promote It's use.