[Update 21.4.0] Hydroid Revisited Feedback

[RikerWatts]

5 hours ago, Buddhakingpen said:

lmao the levels of salt.

I'll continue one shotting groups of sortie level enemies with armor shredded, stealth multiplied slam attacks

I found solid uses for all 4 of his skills. Sucks that so many people still havent though. 

Any frame can work. Old limbo used to be a GOD at kuva siphon with a loki. Now his change makes it impossible to work, but you know what? As much as I don't like Limbo now, I understand what his rework is thematically, and gameplay wise. He is meant to pull people between the fabrics of reality, completely understandable.
I found solid uses for all of OLD limbo's abilities, yet it was disregarded and changed to what it is now. Because people BELIEVED him to be the worst-of-the-worst. Frames like Hydroid, Atlas, Zephyr, and Mag suffer more than old limbo did, yet people felt it needed for a massive change, so DE followed.

Hydroid needs to be what he was directed TO be after the removal of stamina, a scurvy sea dog captian of the ocean's wrath that commands the waves to turn the tides of battle in his favor. NOT BECOME THEM.
Nobody likes hydroid sitting underwater all game.
Nobody likes his tentacles flinging enemies around and doing no damage whatsoever.
Nobody likes the fact that you have to hard lean on a stat to make him work (Duration or range, pick one. Both make 2 abilities useless.)
Nobody wants his abilities to stay the same, my fixes reuse who he is and changes one ability entirely, and removes the passive he currently has since melee focused passives on a not innately melee frame is useless.
Excalibur, Wukong, Valkyr- theirs makes sense, they HAVE melee built in. Hydroid does not. Don't justify it, it won't be justified.

[leadwolf1]

12 minutes ago, Chopx said:

I think you guys are missing the point here. Theres no point in making undertow into vauban vortex or nidus larva. The main feature of undertow is its mobility. Hydroid is able to tidal surge around in undertow picking up enemies and bringing them to his team. This is what we call interactive gameplay.....

Yes you may be right , but it does absolutely nothing to increase his play ability in higher end except stay in a puddle. Look if you would read like I have and started giving feed back like I have from day one and read everyone's post, even if you do not remember all of them you do start to get the idea of what players do not like . They do not like that undertow makes enemies invulnerable for allies to kill, they do not like the fact that it takes so long if enemies at in undertow to die and players do not like that hydroid is unable to join in the fight as the puddle , so this idea allows for all that , and it is an idea put together from multiple players ideas not just one player / making the idea a more universal one  and one that will work. Hey chopX here is what is funny some of your idea is in here to and you still do not agree. why because it is not all yours?

Edited August 14, 2017 by leadwolf1
to add more text for explanation

[Plathulu]

I don't know if someone else has posted this, but when I use tentacle swarm, the color of the tentacles is just the same as pre-rework. However, puddle and surge both have the new textures. Is there some voodoo-witchcraft I need to do in the display settings?

[Chopx]

2 minutes ago, leadwolf1 said:

Yes you may be right , but it does absolutely nothing to increase his play ability in higher end except stay in a puddle. Look if you would read like I have and started giving feed back like I have from day one and read everyone's post, even if you do not remember all of them you do start to get the idea of what players do not like . They do not like that undertow makes enemies invulnerable for allies to kill, they do not like the fact that it takes so long if enemies at in undertow to die and players do not like that hydroid is unable to join in the fight as the puddle , so this idea allows for all that , and it is an idea put together from multiple players ideas not just one player / making the idea a more universal one  and one that will work.

Let me highlight some stuff for you

16 hours ago, Chopx said:

I think is more along the lines of what ppl in the community want. Thx SilentDeathReaper27 for going through this thread and writing this up
 

hydroid passive.

on kill summons a tentacle max 10.

this is something the comunity wanted changed and i talked to a few people on a lot of difrent sites this is a passive people are ok with that should be easy to implement.

hydroids barrage ability.

when cast from undertow all shots of barrage hit undertow to kill enemiess trapped in undertow.

hydroids tidal surge ability.

all this ability needs is to increase in size with range mods.

And possibly  be able to jump cancel it.

hydroids undertow ability.

this one needs the most work but it is all simple changes.

1. enemies trapped in undertow are trapped even after moving i.e. Tidal Surge.

2. make undertow a castable duration based ability.

3. after casting undertow you can leave it and the undertow should stay for the duration.

4. while in undertow hydroid should get a damage buff on all abilities.

5. when hydroid leaves the undertow he should get a armor buff.

6. make enemies visible within undertow

basically hydroid could go from a low range dps frame to a long range hard CC tank with the use of undertow.

hydroids tentacle swarm ability.

1. enemies killed by tentacles have a chance to drop energy.

2. enemies hit by tentacles are knocked down instead of grabbed.

3. optional if you want to see enemys flying DE make the dead bodies ragdoll when hit with tentacles.

the goal of this was to be easy for DE to implement and fit the theam of hydroid DE has but to also make hydroid more loved by the community.

optional dash ability.

when hydroid dashes he becomes  a water like version  of himself  becomein knock  down immune  and possibly status  immune for a brief  time.

down sides to hydroid.

energy costs.

abilities casted from undertow have less CC range.

you can take a way the stelth undertow gives hydroid.

enemies with high CC. 

 

[VoidPunch]

I never really liked the pirate theme for hydroid's powers. It never really fit and made his powers pigeon-holed into being more pirate than water bender. I wish they would scrap his kit and make one that makes sense with his powers, being water. I don't mind him looking like a pirate. But trying to make his powers around that fact just takes away a ton of potential. Water as its own theme has tons of ideas, whirlpools, tidal waves, floods, acid rain, etc... why failing watery tentacles?

[RikerWatts]

3 hours ago, leadwolf1 said:

Please read the wiki he is a water frame in the form of a pirate, I so do not understand why players can not comprehend this, all his abilities are water no cannons or flintlock pistols . we are not making a new warframe we are trying to make this frame better and they chose to go into having the prime look more like a pirate.

Oh I can comprehend it. But his design was based on Davy Jones from PIrates of the Carribean. He's NOT supposed to be a water elemental, he's supposed to be a dread pirate captain. He is supposed to control the fury of the seas, not be the seas.
Also how the hell is undertow anywhere near "fury of the seas"?

 

[Wrum]

Just now, VoidPunch said:

I never really liked the pirate theme for hydroid's powers. It never really fit and made his powers pigeon-holed into being more pirate than water bender. I wish they would scrap his kit and make one that makes sense with his powers, being water. I don't mind him looking like a pirate. But trying to make his powers around that fact just takes away a ton of potential. Water as its own theme has tons of ideas, whirlpools, tidal waves, floods, acid rain, etc... why failing watery tentacles?

because hentai jokes.

but seriously i like his kit with the new changes. and so far as your theme suggestions go: he has acid rain with corrosive barrage, tidal surge is a tidal wave but smaller because it would be to powerful otherwise, whirlpools are basically undertow by more interesting to look at so that would work, floods are basically the undertow tidal surge combo.

and tentacles because octopus live in the deep blue sea.

[leadwolf1]

1 minute ago, Chopx said:

Let me highlight some stuff for you

 

 

2 minutes ago, Chopx said:

Let me highlight some stuff for you

 

OK lets look at how you have made it really any different, I do not see it. make it cast able but yet next you say  make it so hydroid can leave it. which is it he stays and cast in a direction or he becomes a puddle and then can leave it? Tell me what is the difference between gathering the enemies in the tidal surge and gathering them in a water spout? your idea right? make enemies visible in under tow , what is the difference between the pool being so high as to the enemies and to to get up and try to escape for the allies to shoot at the and them staying under water. You see similar ideas. just not all yours.

[Ascythian]

Another idea I had and pasted somewhere in reddit was for Hydroid to get an ability where he turns into water shaped like Hydroid and enemy fire goes through him while he blasts them with water jets/power punches.

[Chopx]

17 minutes ago, leadwolf1 said:

Yes you may be right , but it does absolutely nothing to increase his play ability in higher end except stay in a puddle. Look if you would read like I have and started giving feed back like I have from day one and read everyone's post, even if you do not remember all of them you do start to get the idea of what players do not like . They do not like that undertow makes enemies invulnerable for allies to kill, they do not like the fact that it takes so long if enemies at in undertow to die and players do not like that hydroid is unable to join in the fight as the puddle , so this idea allows for all that , and it is an idea put together from multiple players ideas not just one player / making the idea a more universal one  and one that will work. Hey chopX here is what is funny some of your idea is in here to and you still do not agree. why because it is not all yours?

Well SilentdeathReaper27 wrote that up not me. so no they arent all my ideas. I understand that we have some of the same ideas. I just disagree with alot of your ideas because again they are just rehashed abilities with a few tweaks. I dont feel like hydroid undertow needs to be inaros sand storm 2.0 with a pull mechanic instead of a push one. Come on man

[Chopx]

3 minutes ago, leadwolf1 said:

 

OK lets look at how you have made it really any different, I do not see it. make it cast able but yet next you say  make it so hydroid can leave it. which is it he stays and cast in a direction or he becomes a puddle and then can leave it? Tell me what is the difference between gathering the enemies in the tidal surge and gathering them in a water spout? your idea right? make enemies visible in under tow , what is the difference between the pool being so high as to the enemies and to to get up and try to escape for the allies to shoot at the and them staying under water. You see similar ideas. just not all yours.

Omg Leadwolf. Lets say undertow has a 20s duration. He goes into undertow ei puddle. he tidal surges to grab/cc enemies. then if he chooses to hit the ability again, he will jump out of his puddle. His puddle will stay "on the ground" with all the enemies within it for the rest of the duration. Lets say it took 5s to tidal surge and pick up 10 enemies. the puddle will stay "on the ground" for 15 more seconds. So the hydroid can help his team kill them.

[leadwolf1]

3 minutes ago, Chopx said:

Well SilentdeathReaper27 wrote that up not me. so no they arent all my ideas. I understand that we have some of the same ideas. I just disagree with alot of your ideas because again they are just rehashed abilities with a few tweaks. I dont feel like hydroid undertow needs to be inaros sand storm 2.0 with a pull mechanic instead of a push one. Come on man

Well TO be honest I do not agree with the armor buff , for even valker without hysteria with all that armor gets 1 shot  just like the rest, until they fix it to where armor really means something an armor buff means nothing to me. SO if you did not write this what is your own idea , lets see if we can put it into a way where it answers the players concerns as well as it being part your idea.

[Chopx]

7 minutes ago, leadwolf1 said:

Well TO be honest I do not agree with the armor buff , for even valker without hysteria with all that armor gets 1 shot  just like the rest, until they fix it to where armor really means something an armor buff means nothing to me. SO if you did not write this what is your own idea , lets see if we can put it into a way where it answers the players concerns as well as it being part your idea.

Now you're just arguing with me because your feelings are hurt that I disagree with you. And the armor buff wasnt my idea. It's the communities idea, not sure who. But I understand why they would want this. If at any point undertow runs out and the enemies arent dead then Hydroid is left with his pants down and is likely to die. This gives him synergy/survivability between his CC/undertow form and just running around killing stuff. Doesnt have to be armor, It could be overshields in the form of a water surrounding him.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Chopx

[leadwolf1]

6 minutes ago, Chopx said:

Omg Leadwolf. Lets say undertow has a 20s duration. He goes into undertow ei puddle. he tidal surges to grab/cc enemies. then if he chooses to hit the ability again, he will jump out of his puddle. His puddle will stay "on the ground" with all the enemies within it for the rest of the duration. Lets say it took 5s to tidal surge and pick up 10 enemies. the puddle will stay "on the ground" for 15 more seconds. So the hydroid can help his team kill them.

first take it easy this is a discussion, Second  IN theory this sounds good <But on average, most enemies will be killed by teammate before you have time to do this, unless you run ahead and perform this function. when looking at this I am excluding survivals and defense , survival tons of enemies all the time and defense a set amount coming at you. I am looking at it in other missions. OK to do it by running ahead given a duration time he still need to be more tanky as to be able to take a few hits would you not agree to that.

[Trentiel]

42 minutes ago, Chopx said:

I think you guys are missing the point here. Theres no point in making undertow into vauban vortex or nidus larva. The main feature of undertow is its mobility. Hydroid is able to tidal surge around in undertow picking up enemies and bringing them to his team. This is what we call interactive gameplay.....

Good point.

I think I've been unfair in characterizing Undertow as "just like Vortex but bad."

Undertow is a localized CC AOE that has manual tentacle-pulls. Plus the effect of Tidal Surge. Which does pull enemies with, IF they're on the side of the pool that you Tidal Surge through. It is fairly interactive. The mechanic could be more consistent, if it brought every enemy with. But yeah, it's not "just larva or just vortex but bad".

[leadwolf1]

3 minutes ago, Chopx said:

Now you're just arguing with me because your feelings are hurt that I disagree with you. And the armor buff wasnt my idea. It's the communities idea, not sure who. But I understand why they would want this. If at any point undertow runs out and the enemies arent dead then Hydroid is left with his pants down and is likely to die. This gives him synergy/survivability between his CC/undertow form and just running around killing stuff. 

No I am not giving my honest opinion. Unless they fixed it. case and point a lot more players run reg missions with inaros and nidus they are tankier then valker with all that armor.

[Chopx]

2 minutes ago, leadwolf1 said:

first take it easy this is a discussion, Second  IN theory this sounds good <But on average, most enemies will be killed by teammate before you have time to do this, unless you run ahead and perform this function. when looking at this I am excluding survivals and defense , survival tons of enemies all the time and defense a set amount coming at you. I am looking at it in other missions. OK to do it by running ahead given a duration time he still need to be more tanky as to be able to take a few hits would you not agree to that.

Well you're right. If the changes that I posted are implemented than Hydroid would not be good on every mission. He wouldnt be good at speed running but then again alot of frames arent optimal at everything. I think tidal surge gives his undertow enough speed to be effective though in most situations.

[Chopx]

1 minute ago, leadwolf1 said:

No I am not giving my honest opinion. Unless they fixed it. case and point a lot more players run reg missions with inaros and nidus they are tankier then valker with all that armor.

I dont run any of those frames. You're comparing 2 of best frames in the game to Hydroid which even if they did a proper rework probably wouldnt be as good. [DE] doesnt have time to do that rework. Were stuck finding an easy fix to make Hydroid viable and fun to play.

[Navarc]

1 hour ago, MagickGrey said:

My biggest issue with this rework is his 4th takes longer to cast than it previously did with Natural Talent on, don't even want to think how slow it would be without it.

Natural talent also only applies for the first part of the cast. If you're charging, it's not gonna make it much faster since it's only the animation that's faster. Not the charging.
So it is a valid problem, I agree with you.

[Kauzuko]

a little backstory. 

When I returned to warframe in early 2016 the first mission I ran with my friend was me playing as Frost Prime, him as Wukong and a random as Hydroid. I always thought Hydroid was really awesome and when i farmed him from vay hek (very luckily only in 5 attempts) you could expect my joy to play our space pirate frame...however it led me to be a little disappointed with him. his slower campy style in game currently. I like your QoL changes to Hydroid but I think its time to let it go.

I dont see Hydroid as a CC frame or a support frame I really want to see him as a damage frame. Why? because he has so much potential to be awesome as one. so heres my idea for the changes I hope everyone gives feedback both positive and Negative.

Passive: Surfs up - this will take his current 2 and convert it to his roll. Why? because ever since limbo got that shift to be his roll I find myself using it just for fun I love the animation of a glide instead of a roll so why not have Hydoird do a medium dash to help navigate corridors and tight hallways 

1.School of Piranhas: a very easy first ability which can be casted to a group of enemies and it it would spread prob by 3 meters twice think of it like locusts going around being a DoT on the targets munching away at them can be effected by Strength and Efficiency 

Augment: Carnivorous School. Allows Hydoird to be healed for each enemy afflicted by School of Piranhas can be boosted by power Strength

2. Make It Rain: A channeled ability that would replace Tempest Barrage into an AOE around Hydroid allowing him to move and letting the barrage follow around him kinda like how Desecrate on Nekros is following around him at all time but this will do damage. this can be effected by Range, Efficiency, Duration and Strength

Augment: corroding Barrage: same thing allows the skill to apply Corrosive to enemies

3. Undertow: yes, Leave the skill in I know I said i didnt like how slow he felt but i rather he keeps his 1 team ability the changes would be to revert the range back to the original 18M and allow it to do a % of health damage that increases per second for the enemies inside However, to balance this make it drain more energy for more units inside. it can  be effected by Range Strength Duration and Efficiency  mods. And finally allow it to move still using your new shift

Augment: Curative Undertow Same as before allow it heal allies who stand in it and make it drain more energy per ally.

4. Release the Kraken. alright, this is where I would want to see the biggest change. change it back to the 20 meter range and get rid of the charge up time and it should spawn with 12 tentacles. why is this different? because it will no longer pick up enemies instead it will slam enemies. Each enemy killed with spawn a new tentacle for the duration of Release the Kraken and it will cap at 25-30 tentacles at a time. now to make it a bit more mobile the kraken will follow Hydroid for the duration of Release the Kraken and it will spawn an additional Tentacle every 3 seconds. once the cap is reached old tentacles will disappear  making the skill more mobile and flow instead just staying in 1 area. however this will still allow people to use the ability to lock down a room and finally this ability can be effected by Range Strength Efficiency and Duration mods 

Augment: Pilfering Swarm Tentacles that kill enemies will have a chance drop additional Loot nothing changes about this perfect augment.

With your QoL updates to hydroid and these skills should make him flow perfectly together. I hope everyone enjoys the ideas please give feedback

[leadwolf1]

3 minutes ago, Chopx said:

Well you're right. If the changes that I posted are implemented than Hydroid would not be good on every mission. He wouldnt be good at speed running but then again alot of frames arent optimal at everything. I think tidal surge gives his undertow enough speed to be effective though in most situations.

Speed running , it seems no matter what the mission , if you go public, and not with team, everyone speed runs it, unless the mission stops them from doing so. I personally do not like it for just this type of reason, that why when all possible I run with players I met and became running teammates with when they are on. but with they way you want to stay heading then why not change an ability so hydroid stays in his silhouette but transforms into water allowing for bullets and melee to pass right threw him and it be a duration thing. limitations are not being able to hack or drop in part to the mobile defense of course and water infracts so he would be detected by lasers

[Trentiel]

If we're talking easy fixes...

-A stronger UI indication for the charge on Barrage.

-A way to end the wave early, without canceling into puddle. At the end of Tidal Surge, it crashes and does a small AOE explosion. I'd like to be able to end it when I need it, and still trigger the AOE. Jump canceling would be a great way to do that.

-Let allies fire into the Undertow puddle to boost the damage.

-Make the tentacles hold still and do strangle-finisher damage like Undertow. Spawn new tentacles as needed to address the number of enemies in their AOE circle.

-Make all his abilities apply a "soaking wet" debuff that slows them down and increases their vulnerability to elemental type damage and status effects.

[Hixlysss]

Tentacle swarm still has the problem of "Grab enemies and flail them around so I can't hit them" which is massively annoying, as well as the problem of "visual noise" cause they are flailing around and we can't exactly see through them. Also we have the issue of "Undertow is still his best power!" Even more so now that the damage scales over time, so why not just make it his ultimate? Every other power revolves around it. The only down side to undertow is it doesn't drag enemies along like tidal surge can.

I mean...he appears to be a CC frame, but he can be done better. Just have Tentacle swarm hold people in place, like harrow's chains, and if cast while in undertow they grab and drag enemies into undertow. Or why not have Tentacle Swarm be an actual summon, you give us a fish that pops up that's just there for a few seconds and then gone, not even there for the full duration of the power...why not have tentacle swarm become The Kraken and you summon in your pet fish, it 'swims' around in it's own undertow puddle, grabbing people into it's own undertow bubble and eating them, basically make it like undertow except better(Moves faster, more range because tentacles, damage increases quicker.)

Tempest still has the issue of being blocked by terrain...considering that I think this power could use to be scrapped and redone, something like "Bubble mines" where he creates an area that's full of water bubbles that constantly explode and do CC(Same sorta power, just minus the raining death from above issue Tempest Barrage has). Alternatively, make the corrosive augment for Tempest Barrage built into the power, we need more abilities that can strip armor off enemies, we shouldn't need an augment to make us actually USE the power, cause it's base CC nature isn't enough to encourage using it...

All in all, a good attempt, the tweaks to his base stats are 100% perfect but his powers still need work. His ultimate is still sorely lacking as a CC power compared to other powers in his kit, so it needs to do something else to make it worth using as currently....Undertow is his best CC and Damage power.

[Chopx]

1 minute ago, leadwolf1 said:

Speed running , it seems no matter what the mission , if you go public, and not with team, everyone speed runs it, unless the mission stops them from doing so. I personally do not like it for just this type of reason, that why when all possible I run with players I met and became running teammates with when they are on. but with they way you want to stay heading then why not change an ability so hydroid stays in his silhouette but transforms into water allowing for bullets and melee to pass right threw him and it be a duration thing. limitations are not being able to hack or drop in part to the mobile defense of course and water infracts so he would be detected by lasers

It's not a bad idea. I just dont see this being implemented right now.

[(PSN)TheHourMan]

Enemies fall out of Undertow when you move. This makes it much less viable.