When is this Ember meta craze going to end?

[Sziklamester]

7 minutes ago, Andaius said:

Who says they don't want to play? I've met most of the people on my friends list as "random guy I met in a pub game" while grinding out missions and alerts. Going with more people nets more enemies and more loot and XP as well. It may be quick, but you get to see other peoples frames and gear in action too. You can see some cool stuff this way.  Also keep in mind that do to the nature of the start chart, resources and enemy types only spawn in certain spots so your going to be grinding in lower level areas no matter what eventually be it for traces, alerts or just more basic resources. Grind the void all you want but if you need Neurals it will never drop!

 

 I actually play Saryn too. at 20-30 levels saryn kills whole rooms at a time when Ember can only hit whats in front of her. Max range Embers are actually pretty bad, because you extend the range so far and you only have a 5 target limit for each tick, enemies can close and kill you while you WoF is hitting far away enemies. You don't seem to realize that saryn hit everyone at the same time. I've seen build of spore saryns  with 185% Power Strength using Toxic Lash gets around 20k - 30k Spore Explosions using Galantine. Spores spread at a base of 40 to the embers 15.  not to mention they proc viral that halves HP so good Saryn build by far does more damage then Embers. base damage of 400 heat. Sounds to me you don't really understand the builds for either of these frames and the potentials of good builds. You just want to shoot stuff and prevent other people killing your "stuff". You keep on saying you don't want that but you keep on saying at the same time that you don't want other people using AoE nukes or other abilities.  Octavia is a horrible example. her whole kit relies on you not killing. The Enemies MUST shoot your ball in order for it to get stacks. So you pretty much confirm that you want to change nukers into AFK machines that must stand around watching enemies shoot an ability that you throw out to damage themselves.

Not really was what I want to mean but it seems you totally misunderstands me. I know their build I play them also not a daily basin but often and effectively but without killing others fun.

My parts end here so Have a good day.

[Andaius]

4 minutes ago, Sziklamester said:

Not really was what I want to mean but it seems you totally misunderstands me. I know their build I play them also not a daily basin but often and effectively but without killing others fun.

My parts end here so Have a good day.

No no I understand you perfectly. I'm just point out your flaws. As long as your with your squad and fighting what the nukers are fighting your killing stuff too. The way your talking is making it sound like Ember is killing every enemy in the map with you being able to fire a shot. That the end of mission stats for you are lower then the Ember so he much be bad and "stealing" all your kills. Then you say that since you can't fire a bullet, it turns into a "walking simulator"  ignoring that the Ember is also walking around to you know finish the mission and fight stuff. I'm saying it's not nearly as bad as your making out, it's over quickly and yo uget the exact same rewards and XP at the end.

[DxAdder]

11 hours ago, ShortbusGangster said:

1+ per mission now. Last times there were this many warframes a mission, they gave away Frost Prime and Mesa was pre-nerf. 

Ember isn't a Meta frame.....

You have no idea what your talking about.

+1 for attempt at stealth nerf.

 

[Andaius]

1 minute ago, DxAdder said:

Ember isn't a Meta frame.....

You have no idea what your talking about.

+1 for attempt at stealth nerf.

 

indeed.

[Chroia]

9 hours ago, Andaius said:

I'm guessing it has to do with how much work Equinox is to get over Ember.

That, and the fact that while Equinox scales (much much) better, WoF has a higher base damage, meaning you can 1shot things for longer (e.g. mid 30s for Overextended Maim, with bleeds, mid 40s for 175% str/eff Overextended WoF.)

 

10 hours ago, Sziklamester said:

She need some more survivability and need to reduce her 4.th ability damage slightly and make it scalable with the level. This can maybe helps to her to be a late game frame and it won't harass the lower level content where the new players get their first experiences. Nerf to the ground not solution and nor the changing too much on her ability. Her ult not that bad but by nature it is a steal kill from others and have a long-wide range and it costs little energy and also not consume so much. While other frames have ultimate which less effective and eat much energy. This could be a proposal to revisit those frames too because their ultimates eats a ton of energy and ember have a good energy pool and with an ability that not eats so much.

It would be much better if her abilities slightly scale with the content because then she have more uses on higher levels and those embers will play higher levels instead of lower levels because their frame will be more viable. Still will be embers who will going to play lower levels too but this could help some to motivate them to go and try their frame on higher levels.

Her ult is explicitly for low levels.

It's got a static #target cap per pulse (3). This is fine at low levels, but enemy density increases along with enemy eHP as levels increase, making it less and less useful.

It's poor against armor. And since DE's solution to 'this enemy needs to be tanky' is 'put armor (and now locational damage reduction) on it'...

World on Fire has a base range of 15m, tied for lowest of anything that isn't Absorb/Assimilate or the new Tentacle Swarm.
This means, imo, that Overextended is basically mandatory (5kk damage per tick is useless if you're not actually hitting anything), with the knock-on effect this has on your modding options.

I'd love to see WoF lose some of its base damage and gain %damage instead - which'd make it less 'kill-steal-y' by trading burst for sustained damage, as well as giving it some scaling.
However, I haven't actually sat and thought the repercussions of this through, since I have 0 reason to think anything like that'll happen.

 

2 hours ago, Kinetos said:

Quick question, if people use Ember to quickly clear low level missions they don't actually want to play just get the end of mission rewards, why do they go in a group and risk having to wait at friendship doors or extraction? 

A) Your question is ignoring any people who 'use Ember etc.' and do do them solo.
I say this speaking as such a person.
B) What MagPrime said.
Also, maybe it's just me, but alerts are generally 'a thing I 'have' to do'. I play for pleasure in missions I choose to do. And, if I'm assuming that others are the same, zipping through the alert ASAP is beneficial to everyone.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Chroia

[Kinetos]

1 hour ago, Andaius said:

Who says they don't want to play?

They do, when they say things like "I just want to quickly clear this low level mission so I can get the reward then go back to high level stuff" 

[Andaius]

3 minutes ago, Kinetos said:

They do, when they say things like "I just want to quickly clear this low level mission so I can get the reward then go back to high level stuff" 

That implies they want to play the mission if they didn't want to play they wouldn't be playing the mission. They just want to do easy stuff faster.

[BornWithTeeth]

Alright chaps, let's take a look at suggestions here, and then compare them to existing mechanical functions and mechanical development trends!

 

People sometimes complain that Ember effortlessly wipes low level maps and consider it to be churlishly stealing kills and ruining the game for everyone.

What I'll point out is that everything in the game effortlessly wipes low level maps. Special offenders: Equinox, Atterax, Simulor, Ignis Wraith, Ember, Octavia, any of the Syndicate proccing weapons, etc.

 

So, my counter-argument there is to discuss what happens when you go above level thirty/forty. What happens then is that Ember abruptly stops being a kill-frame and becomes one of the best area control-frames in the game.

World on Fire with the Firequake Augment is not about killing enemies, it is about taking the arena away from them, stripping them of control of the battlefield. Think of it this way, if your superpower is being immune to fire, and you are fighting your enemies in a wooden house, burn the house down. What it does is disrupt enemy formations, lock down enemy heavy hitters, and allow your entire squad to benefit from that CC. 

To this we add her 2 and her 3, both of which can be combined either with each other or with her ultimate for a significant area stun and some extra damage in a pinch. Her 2 is, as earlier noted, a quick cast stun, and her 3 does some damage over a wide area and then serves to lock down choke points with the ring. This damage won't kill enemies at high levels, but the fire procs, the panicking, and the knockdowns all combine really well with a short range damage-per-shot execution build using a shotgun or high damage melee.



At Sortie level, Ember is one of my most used frames, because of her reliable area CC. Enemies have a hard time approaching and fighting the 'frame which is setting the World On Fire.

 

 

So, when I hear people say "Nerf her base damage outputs, change her ulti, give her some scaling damage back in place of her base, and remake her into a full-on nuking Warframe," I get a bit concerned. Specifically, I get a bit concerned because the examples of that kind of philosophy which DE have given us over the past few patches have been 'frames which are mechanically powerful into the late game, but are also a complete snooze-fest to actually play. Octavia and Nidus have scaling damage and reliable CC, but their kits are really quite annoying to actually use. Nidus has to spam his first ability constantly, in every direction where there might be an enemy, in order to maintain his stacks so that he can use his abilities. Octavia's kit is functionally just Cooldown Management Simulator 2017, where you hit buttons as their abilities wear off, and otherwise stand around being invisible.


Ember, as she is right now, is fine. She smoothly transitions from being a kill-frame at lower levels to being a crowd control goddess at higher levels, who really rewards combining tactical use of her abilities but doesn't have to spam them senselessly in order to get anything done. If DE were to announce "We've gained a lot of useful experience from making late game nukers like Nidus and Octavia, so we're going to remake Ember to better fit that interactive model, with real synergy between her abilities," that's a statement which translates as "Kiss goodbye to using Ember as a combined powers-and-weapons CC 'frame, I hope you like spamming Accelerant for ever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever."

 

Edited August 16, 2017 by BornWithTeeth

[torint_man]

5 hours ago, Kinetos said:

Quick question, if people use Ember to quickly clear low level missions they don't actually want to play just get the end of mission rewards, why do they go in a group and risk having to wait at friendship doors or extraction? 

To leech off of others void relics. I know so because I'm doing it right now. Since I actively benefit in doing so, I have no reason to not do it.

[Andaius]

12 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Alright chaps, let's take a look at suggestions here, and then compare them to existing mechanical functions and mechanical development trends!

 

People sometimes complain that Ember effortlessly wipes low level maps and consider it to be churlishly stealing kills and ruining the game for everyone.

What I'll point out is that everything in the game effortlessly wipes low level maps. Special offenders: Equinox, Atterax, Simulor, Ignis Wraith, Ember, Octavia, any of the Syndicate proccing weapons, etc.

 

So, my counter-argument there is to discuss what happens when you go above level thirty/forty. What happens then is that Ember abruptly stops being a kill-frame and becomes one of the best area control-frames in the game.

World on Fire with the Firequake Augment is not about killing enemies, it is about taking the arena away from them, stripping them of control of the battlefield. Think of it this way, if your superpower is being immune to fire, and you are fighting your enemies in a wooden house, burn the house down. What it does is disrupt enemy formations, lock down enemy heavy hitters, and allow your entire squad to benefit from that CC. 

To this we add her 2 and her 3, both of which can be combined either with each other or with her ultimate for a significant area stun and some extra damage in a pinch. Her 2 is, as earlier noted, a quick cast stun, and her 3 does some damage over a wide area and then serves to lock down choke points with the ring. This damage won't kill enemies at high levels, but the fire procs, the panicking, and the knockdowns all combine really well with a short range damage-per-shot execution build using a shotgun or high damage melee.



At Sortie level, Ember is one of my most used frames, because of her reliable area CC. Enemies have a hard time approaching and fighting the 'frame which is setting the World On Fire.

 

 

So, when I hear people say "Nerf her base damage outputs, change her ulti, give her some scaling damage back in place of her base, and remake her into a full-on nuking Warframe," I get a bit concerned. Specifically, I get a bit concerned because the examples of that kind of philosophy which DE have given us over the past few patches have been 'frames which are mechanically powerful into the late game, but are also a complete snooze-fest to actually play. Octavia and Nidus have scaling damage and reliable CC, but their kits are really quite annoying to actually use. Nidus has to spam his first ability constantly, in every direction where there might be an enemy, in order to maintain his stacks so that he can use his abilities. Octavia's kit is functionally just Cooldown Management Simulator 2017, where you hit buttons as their abilities wear off, and otherwise stand around being invisible.


Ember, as she is right now, is fine. She smoothly transitions from being a kill-frame at lower levels to being a crowd control goddess at higher levels, who really rewards combining tactical use of her abilities but doesn't have to spam them senselessly in order to get anything done. If DE were to announce "We've gained a lot of useful experience from making late game nukers like Nidus and Octavia, so we're going to remake Ember to better fit that interactive model, with real synergy between her abilities," that's a statement which translates as "Kiss goodbye to using Ember as a combined powers-and-weapons CC 'frame, I hope you like spamming Accelerant for ever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever."

 

Pretty much agree with everything.

[Agilos]

As Ember is now, she more or less put the other players in the group, in spectator mode in low level missions. And that can kill the game for other players.

DE need to get away from the aura damage ability she got, and give her something like what the fire mobs have. And no, not a spam ability like Saryn had, befor she got rework.

truth is, Ember is now, what Saryn ones was. The difference was, Saryn need to spam her ability, Ember just need to activate WoF ones, WoF is what i will call a no brainer.

 

[DxAdder]

1 hour ago, Agilos said:

As Ember is now, she more or less put the other players in the group, in spectator mode in low level missions. And that can kill the game for other players.

DE need to get away from the aura damage ability she got, and give her something like what the fire mobs have. And no, not a spam ability like Saryn had, befor she got rework.

truth is, Ember is now, what Saryn ones was. The difference was, Saryn need to spam her ability, Ember just need to activate WoF ones, WoF is what i will call a no brainer.

 

Don't want to see an Ember ? Easy don't PUG. Go make some friends, join a clan but if you intend to lone wolf this game via PUG's don't complain about it.

 

 

[MANIAC2607]

Really I think Equinox has a better aoe ability. Maim applies slash to all targets and absorbs all the damage dealt and releases it as a slashing wave (like a hyped up nyx absorb). I think most people don't play her cos she is a pain to farm. But maybe her prime version might be easier to get. So im guessing when her primed access comes out people might start to give her more love :P

[(PSN)thehoocodfather]

Ember is not meta.

Its just that on lower level alerts, the ember in the team usually gets the most kills.

So new players all want an ember so they can get the most kills too,  

[babywrath]

Ember is properly balanced in my opinion. She is either a low tier glass cannon or a jack of all trades master of none. What she cannot do in Sortie level missions, she dominates in low level missions which every player has to go through daily anyway. Removing/reducing/nerfing Embers WoF would mean losing the most efficient way to get through low level missions that we simply have to do. Think how annoying, clearing the star chart, clearing quest lines, farming resources, farming focus, farming nitain, or any alerts in general would be if we didn't have a mobile version of resonating quake banshee.  

OP seems absolutely obsessed with "other players fun" that he does not consider that maybe the noobs enjoy being carried through a mission every once in a while. When I first started, I loved tagging along with the friendly neighborhood ember and raking in tons of exp in the most efficient way possible. At the very least clearing the start chart was a piece of cake for a noob. 

The only valid argument I see the OP repeatedly putting out is that he and noobs without the proper mods, warframes and equipment cannot get kills a.k.a "enjoy the game" if an ember is present. That's an incredibly selfish logic that only really applies to people who actually care about kill count. IMO embers don't exist for the kill count but for efficiency. Without which, this game would simply be too taxing. I for one do not go and think "you know, its been a while since I have been top of the kill count. I should go ember on some random low level mission without any real rewards and snide at the noobs". Is this what you really think of all ember players???

If you want to wipe out hordes with some niche build or inefficient/unmodded weapons/warframe then take the time and effort to get a non-ember team together, play with friends, or go solo. Requiring that all players reduce their efficiency for "your" fun is absurd to say the least. 

[Agilos]

3 hours ago, DxAdder said:

Don't want to see an Ember ? Easy don't PUG. Go make some friends, join a clan but if you intend to lone wolf this game via PUG's don't complain about it.

 

 

what do you mean by lone wolf the game??

All I ask for, is that, who else is, in the group with a Ember, can do something to help in a mission, other then just run along.

[Kierlak]

WHAT IS THIS? SOMEONE TRYING TO GET EMBER NERFED BECAUSE "MUH KIL...I MEAN MUH SKILL CAP"?! I AM SHOCK. THIS HAS NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE.

[(XBOX)ThermalStone]

If you are seeing too many Embers, you may be playing too many low level missions.  It might be time for you to get good.

Edited August 17, 2017 by (XB1)ThermalStone

[SolaireTheSunWalker]

On 8/15/2017 at 11:30 PM, DeckChairVonBananaCamel said:

i THINK that when OP stated:
"1+ per mission now. Last times there were this many warframes a mission, they gave away Frost Prime and Mesa was pre-nerf."

What they were actually saying was:

"I am finding that there is at least one Ember in every mission i run publicly, sometimes more than one. The last time i found a similar situation was when Frost Prime was given away for free, and before that was Mesa (before the developers reduced the over-the-top effectiveness of her fourth ability). I am getting sick of always running a mission where there is at least one person using world on fire, obliterating enemies halfway across the map with minimal to no effort and i believe something should be done about this to rectify the over-saturation of this specific warframe.

You're not even the OP and you put more effort in I'm proud of you but seriously though I almost want someone to start a thread with that and see where it goes. Usually when someone mentions seeing too many Embers or them using WoF people usually just say cry about it or git gud so I'm kinda curious if people would have a better discussion here or if it'd be those same basic replies on every Ember post lol

Edited August 17, 2017 by SolaireTheSunWalker

[(XBOX)ThermalStone]

33 minutes ago, SolaireTheSunWalker said:

You're not even the OP and you put more effort in I'm proud of you but seriously though I almost want someone to start a thread with that and see where it goes. Usually when someone mentions seeing too many Embers or them using WoF people usually just say cry about it or git gud so I'm kinda curious if people would have a better discussion here or if it'd be those same basic replies on every Ember post lol

Okay, you want a serious reply?  Ember is a necessary tool for veterans in a game that forces us to replay low level content with great frequency.  She is the most efficient way to clear syndicate missions and low level alerts while also getting enough affinity and focus that we don't feel like we are wasting our time. 

Low level players won't normally encounter high level Embers when clearing the star chart or doing quests because there isn't a reason for us to go back and play those missions.  

When you play a public alert, you should expect players to try and finish quickly.  Therefore rejoice when a high level Ember joins your game:  she is finishing the mission as fast as possible and increasing your rewards per unit of time spent in the game.  

[QueenKharn]

Ember just needs to fit in with their current philosophy of making frame abilities more active and synergistic. She's almost there in fact.

As I said before, the ult is the real issue with her kit. Her Fireball, Accelerant and Fire Blast work well together, but most people just turn on 4 and that's the limit of their skill use. It's inefficient to do otherwise. So yes, change her ult to be something more proactive.

And before people say I don't know what I'm talking about, I've played this game for years. Ember is one of the only frames I've sold because honestly, she's tedious to play with and as. I felt bad for the people who grouped with me, and I even talked with my regular gaming group about it and they agreed they'd prefer if I didn't play her with them as they'd like to shoot things and use their own powers regularly, so out the window she went. If she can make a group of dedicated players hate her for one ability I can imagine how others must feel about it.

[SolaireTheSunWalker]

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)ThermalStone said:

Okay, you want a serious reply?  Ember is a necessary tool for veterans in a game that forces us to replay low level content with great frequency.  She is the most efficient way to clear syndicate missions and low level alerts while also getting enough affinity and focus that we don't feel like we are wasting our time. 

Low level players won't normally encounter high level Embers when clearing the star chart or doing quests because there isn't a reason for us to go back and play those missions.  

When you play a public alert, you should expect players to try and finish quickly.  Therefore rejoice when a high level Ember joins your game:  she is finishing the mission as fast as possible and increasing your rewards per unit of time spent in the game.  

That's more like it. I do agree with clearing syndicate missions/alerts but affinity/xp wise there's also killing frames that are on or very close to Embers levels but there are ways to acquire focus much more effectively that being equinox + stealth killing. 
 

Low level players don't really encounter any frames that are high level, so the way I look at it, is early game there is no such thing as an "Ember meta"


People have different outlooks on things. For the most part a huge amount of players want to do a mission/alert as fast as possible but not all want to. Just because I want to clear fast doesn't mean others do. Some people want to play the game not backseat game, I've met tons of people like that actually they don't care if they got 100x more loot then they would w/o an Ember because if they can't have fun why play a game for fun.

Edited August 17, 2017 by SolaireTheSunWalker

[-Temp0-]

On 16.08.2017 at 4:41 PM, ComCray said:

This kind of thinking is SUCH nonsense. In a game that is about killing things with a wide arsenal of weapons, kill stealing by doing nothing IS an issue. You think the only thing people come here for is XP? Really? Maybe a real tiny segment of the playerbase has this attitude, these are the ones that are afk most of the time. About as annoying as Ember herself. 

Ya all folks aware that "solo" option exists?

All the kills in the universe will be yours. Like literally. All of them. Or what is even better, stop complaining if you're palying against trash mobs of lv like 30 in a group of 4 experienced players because they die when any of 4 sneeze in their general direction. 

[MagPrime]

7 minutes ago, -Temp0- said:

Ya all folks aware that "solo" option exists?

All the kills in the universe will be yours. Like literally. All of them. Or what is even better, stop complaining if you're palying against trash mobs of lv like 30 in a group of 4 experienced players because they die when any of 4 sneeze in their general direction. 

Oi, we don' like yer logic stuff 'round 'ere

Go on, geet outta 'ere

[Legion-Shields]

On 8/16/2017 at 3:21 AM, Sziklamester said:

It is no matter on xp really but still not fun. Let me ask a question.

You are that football player who plays the game with less salary but for fun and for the enjoyment? Or you are that type of footballer who likes to sit on the bench with a good salary?

Hope you get what I mean.

As someone who loves getting carried and also despises the way people who play Ember, Banshee, and Octavia think Mag's Magnetize is "unfun", there is nothing more hilarious than waiting for a team mate to shoot at a huge mob of enemies, casting Magnetize on said enemies, and watching said team mate pull out their melee, run into or ahead of the bubble, and die instantly while I stand there calmly shooting into the bubble and having "my" fun.