NieR: Automata Ash Blade Storm rework?

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

So was hanging out in the Warframe redditt forums. And I came across this neat idea for a Blade Storm rework.

Was thinking, it would work vary well in conclave and would be a nice quick charge attack for ash's 4 in PvE. Better than the clumsiness that is the current Blade Storm imo, would also completely eliminate the disorientation of "vomit cam" or "death mark everything in a blur mode" and more importantly auto pilot cut screen afk mode. But for those that like the "signature cinematic" it would randomly occur during his 3 and could make it optional. 

Thoughts? 

Edited October 6, 2017 by (XB1)RDeschain82
Clarification

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

I believe it would flow vary well, In PvE and PvP. Could also synergize vary well with the rest of his kit. 

He could still use his wrist blades. Just would have to revert energy cost back to 100 for a full charge attack.

[Cyandana]

Would love this. 

[Nazrethim]

Yes, this is so far the only Blade Storm 'nuke' idea that sorts of solves nearly every issue.

It's either this or a stance ultimate, and this one is even more f*ckin easy to get working than a stance.

[TaylorsContraction]

Overall this idea fits better with his ultimate. The cutscene nature of Ash's ult has always been what people complained about. It can be a 100 energy cost ability affected by the standard power strength / range mods.

DE's view is that ash should be an assassin like character who focuses on individual targets, but he already can do this with fatal teleport.

[Nazrethim]

4 hours ago, TaylorsContraction said:

Overall this idea fits better with his ultimate. The cutscene nature of Ash's ult has always been what people complained about. It can be a 100 energy cost ability affected by the standard power strength / range mods.

DE's view is that ash should be an assassin like character who focuses on individual targets, but he already can do this with fatal teleport.

The cost of the ability it's only important because it asures that Build Diversity is allowed, otherwise we end up with a broken piece of garbage that requires stacking one or two broken energy mechanics just to work at 1/3rd the default capacity of it's previous incarnation.

Basically the cost of 100 is inherently balanced, therefore any mod set up would be balanced with it.

It's also worth mentioning that initially Blade Storm didn't have clones, they were added to assist Ash because he was too slow on his own, even stacking speed, and thus needed that. Current incarnation is like the original blade storm, except it costs 200 to 800% more and it has a really really really awful Marking Mode. It still baffles me that some idiots defend the obvious nerf claiming it's better now despite all mathematical and empirical evidence of the contrary.

Another possible alternative could be make it like the Killing Spree+Blade Flurry combo of WoW Rogue class: Attacks 7 times in 3s

Edited August 22, 2017 by Nazrethim

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

just want to make sure i understand the power description (as i have never played nier: automata), would this also be similar to ciri's special ability from the witcher 3 segments where you play as her?

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

2 hours ago, DeckChairVonBananaCamel said:

just want to make sure i understand the power description (as i have never played nier: automata), would this also be similar to ciri's special ability from the witcher 3 segments where you play as her?

If you talking about Ciri's blink ability, then no. Ciri's blink resembles Ash's 3. What I'm taking about is a quick AOE burst charge attack to replace Ash's current 4. There is a link in the OP that shows a demonstration. 

Edited August 23, 2017 by (XB1)FCastle74

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

If you talking about Ciri's blink ability, then no. Ciri's blink resembles Ash's 3. What I'm taking about is a quick AOE burst charge attack to replace Ash's current 4. There is a link in the OP that shows a demonstration. 

ah ok, i didnt see that video.

as for ciri's blink, it hits up to 5 enemies at a time...

[TaylorsContraction]

3 hours ago, DeckChairVonBananaCamel said:

ah ok, i didnt see that video.

as for ciri's blink, it hits up to 5 enemies at a time...

It's not like that as Ash won't be teleporting and stabbing people. Instead there'll be an energy blade that does the slashing in one or two swings. Enemies within range of the ability will take damage. 

While this can push Ash back to press 4 to win frame if done wrong. I feel by making the range somewhat limited, this will force Ash to jump in the middle of groups to a actually be effective with his ult. He can use teleport to close the gap and then smoke bomb to go invisible, then using blade storm in like a 15 meter radius with stretch on.

[Nazrel]

This would be far better and funnier than what we have now. Upvoted (:

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

1 hour ago, TaylorsContraction said:

While this can push Ash back to press 4 to win frame if done wrong. I feel by making the range somewhat limited, this will force Ash to jump in the middle of groups to a actually be effective with his ult. He can use teleport to close the gap and then smoke bomb to go invisible, then using blade storm in like a 15 meter radius with stretch on.

Yes, yes, YES. I am enamored by this combo synergy you just described.

DE would do well to revisit Ash's Ult with this concept in mind. I am completely and 100% behind this concept thread for a Bladestorm rework.

[Nazrethim]

2 hours ago, TaylorsContraction said:

It's not like that as Ash won't be teleporting and stabbing people. Instead there'll be an energy blade that does the slashing in one or two swings. Enemies within range of the ability will take damage. 

While this can push Ash back to press 4 to win frame if done wrong. I feel by making the range somewhat limited, this will force Ash to jump in the middle of groups to a actually be effective with his ult. He can use teleport to close the gap and then smoke bomb to go invisible, then using blade storm in like a 15 meter radius with stretch on.

Discard any power mods for the balance part. It makes balancing easier. The reason current BS is terrible is, aside from it's core mechanics being outdated and clunky, the fact it's stats (specifically the cost) are balanced around specific set ups (ie: max efficiency with Zenurik) and thus unusable outside of those specific setups

Judging by your statement it means this BS would have 10m base range, which is okay with me as he is a Warrior Ninja, therefore Melee oriented.

I'm actualy picturing him doing something similar to what Vergil does on his Judgment Cut on DMC4. Except Ash would dissapear for the short duration and it would be a radial thing.  Clip:

 

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

Somehow, I feel like by making Ash's ult reworked in this fashion, he should end the move posing with his arm-blades sheathed/retracted into his arms after Bladestorm and a flashy glowing text of the word "Blade Storm" in Orokin should streak across the screen for a brief moment while the enemies are getting cut down in the background.

It just has to be.

[Jobistober]

I don't see any substantial difference between what was suggested on reddit and how Ash currently works, other than look and feel. Seems like most rework ideas these days revolve around making a Warframe into some kind of nuker, which it's already been mentioned DE doesn't want Ash to be. I don't mind Ash the way he is, but if his 4 were to ever change, it should focus on providing a team buff and/or complimenting his fatal teleport ability, not some cheap repackaged area nuker ability.

[Nazrethim]

2 minutes ago, Jobistober said:

I don't see any substantial difference between what was suggested on reddit and how Ash currently works, other than look and feel. Seems like most rework ideas these days revolve around making a Warframe into some kind of nuker, which it's already been mentioned DE doesn't want Ash to be. I don't mind Ash the way he is, but if his 4 were to ever change, it should focus on providing a team buff and/or complimenting his fatal teleport ability, not some cheap repackaged area nuker ability.

A Stance Ultimate is the other alternative, if properly made. Specially if it focuses on Combos and Finishers rather than mindless E-spam or Slidespam macros.

The point is that BS mechanics no longer make the cut. It's outdated, just as Super Jump was for Excalibur.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Nazrethim

[Jobistober]

4 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

The point is that BS mechanics no longer make the cut. It's outdated, just as Super Jump was for Excalibur.

I would have to disagree. BS is far more useful that an ability that makes you jump a little higher (I use BS more in situations when the squad has become overwhelmed and the room needs thinning). Having said that, his 4 could be changed to better fit his "single target assassin" theme.

[Nazrethim]

Just now, Jobistober said:

I would have to disagree. BS is far more useful that an ability that makes you jump a little higher (I use BS more in situations when the squad has become overwhelmed and the room needs thinning). Having said that, his 4 could be changed to better fit his "single target assassin" theme.

He already has Teleport for that, Fatal Teleport further cementing that. His 4 is supposed to be the "kill everyone" Fatal Teleport Overdrive... and it fails at that. Old one did it's job, but was mercilessly abused by max Effi spammers, and thus it needed to fall. But current one is the weakest the ability has been in the history of the game, it's outperformed by using Smoke Screen and a goodish melee weapon!

BS is not useful, it's pointless. We need something new, something different, something powerful. We need a proper rework, be a nuke or stance it does not matter, as long as the ultimate warrior ninja once again has an effect on the battlefield that can be felt by all.

[Jobistober]

38 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

BS is not useful, it's pointless.

That's too subjective a blanket statement to make. BS is useful to me and I can make it do anything that your post claims it cannot do. Spamming 4, or any ability, shouldn't be how any Warframe is played. None of Ash's abilities should have or should ever be focused on killing large quantities of enemies in one go with a single button press. That's why I suggested a team buff or a synergy with the teleport he already has, and perhaps make Fatal Teleport default and not an augment.

[Nazrethim]

13 minutes ago, Jobistober said:

That's too subjective a blanket statement to make. BS is useful to me and I can make it do anything that your post claims it cannot do.

So, let's clear things up. You claim an ability that costs 150 to 450 (100 to 300 if invisibile, which defeats the point of keeping the animations) to kill (or just harm, in high level content) 10 enemies, when a cheap 35 cost Smoke Screen and a goodish (not even top tier) melee weapon can do the same in 1/3rd or in some cases 1/4th of the time is useful. Nevermind that TP can do pretty much the same thing even faster depending on which type of melee you have equiped, specially if the Augment is involved (Augment that doesn't harm any other stat in the process)

Quote

Spamming 4, or any ability, shouldn't be how any Warframe is played.

Tell that to DE. Efficiency wouldn't even exist if that was the case

Quote

None of Ash's abilities should have or should ever be focused on killing large quantities of enemies in one go with a single button press. That's why I suggested a team buff or a synergy with the teleport he already has, and perhaps make Fatal Teleport default and not an augment.

Well, then we need to redesign the game around not pitching players against hordes of enemies, rather 5 to 7 very tough enemies, that would make Assassin-style frames actually viable.

Ash is not a support frame, he's a warrior and assassin, Kill is his gig. And if the game pitches players against a horde of enemies, he must be able to slaughter them all with ease.

Also, what synergy with teleport he already has? I see nothing on game descriptions, wiki or in actual gameplay. Or are you from an alternate universe where that synergy exists?

Edited August 23, 2017 by Nazrethim

[Nazrethim]

On 16/8/2017 at 11:21 PM, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

So was hanging out in the Warframe redditt forums. And I came across this neat idea for a Blade Storm rework.

Was thinking, it would work vary well in conclave and would be a nice quick charge attack for ash's 4. Better than the clumsiness that is the current Blade Storm imo, would also completely eliminate the disorientation of "vomit cam" or "death mark everything in a blur mode" and more importantly auto pilot cut screen afk mode. 

Thoughts? 

Hey, what about something like this? (watch it in HD and at 0.25 speed to fully apreciate it)

Spoiler

Also those would be kickass Nikana, Sparring and Dual Blade stances too. WF and DMC both operate on Rule of Cool so why the hell not?

 

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

Personally I don't think blade storm needs changing.  The marking mechanic itself could use some polish but as for what his blade storm does I think it's fine.

Reworks try to give a more updated/fresh feel with QOL adjustments and occasionally changing other things.  I feel like the blade storm discussion is similar to Hydroid's recent revisit.  People had all of these cool sounding ideas that would have made hydroid amazing.  But it wouldn't have been hydroid.

In the same situation these ideas people suggest for blade storm sound really cool.  But it wouldn't be ash anymore.  Wether people like the cutscene thing or not it's inherently what as is and I can't really imagine what ash would be like without it.

I'd much rather have a "master blade" frame that has these coold nier/DMC styled attacks be created then simply shoved on an old frame to make it more "palitable" for some users.  You could argue that a fatal teleport ash is more efficient than using blade storm at all.  Besides limiting your weapon choice in this regard you're also going down a dark path.  If all players ever did was play for efficiency then there would be no reason for half the weapons/frames to exist currently.

No CC ability is ever going to match the power of loki's radial disarm unless it also severely weakens or outright kills enemies scaling forever as an example.

At the end of the day I just feel like everyone expects reworks/revisits to do one thing or to completely change the frame.  When that's never been the goal or intention of them.  The only frame that was as close to an exception to this was limbo.  Limbo was an entirely different case.  He was designed with a very specific theme in mind that just was not met with his set of abilities as they were pre rework.  You could argue that "blade storm" envokes a certain idea and that it's not being met with it's current form.  However it does envoke what DE set out to accomplish with ash.  An ability that targets multiple enemies and ash teleports around real fast to each enemy.

The only reason it got changed so heavily was due to trolling purposes and nuke capability.  The base "idea" of the ability was fine as far as DE was concerned right from launch.  Which is why we still have cutscene ash.

[Nazrethim]

5 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Knight Raime said:

Personally I don't think blade storm needs changing.  The marking mechanic itself could use some polish but as for what his blade storm does I think it's fine.

No it is not. It's the weakest the ability has been ever. If original BS was bad, this is worse. The marking mechanics works on paper but not in game, and that's for PvE, in PvP using BS marks you as a huge noob because the ability is flat out detrimental to ash to even attempt to use.

5 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Knight Raime said:

Reworks try to give a more updated/fresh feel with QOL adjustments and occasionally changing other things.  I feel like the blade storm discussion is similar to Hydroid's recent revisit.  People had all of these cool sounding ideas that would have made hydroid amazing.  But it wouldn't have been hydroid.

Reworks are supposed also to fix critical isues with the frame, something that Ash Revisit didn't. One of the key issues was endless cutscene and ease of spam as well as Effi being a godstat. DE fixed the spam part, but increased cost by 200 to 800% making Effi flat out mandatory to even do 1/3rd as well as previous iteration and increased the cutscene time by 200%, making the problems worse. Hydroid, Oberon and Limbo all got mostly upgrades to make their gameplay better was Ash was simply nerfed.

5 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Knight Raime said:

In the same situation these ideas people suggest for blade storm sound really cool.  But it wouldn't be ash anymore.  Wether people like the cutscene thing or not it's inherently what as is and I can't really imagine what ash would be like without it.

Yeah, because Excalibur is not the same without Super Jump, right? The point most of us who still want to see Ash be treated fair want something that solves the problems of BS, which are in it's core mechanics, hence why it needs to be partially or completely scrapped, while still keeping his theme and acrobatic stabby awesomeness.

5 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Knight Raime said:

I'd much rather have a "master blade" frame that has these coold nier/DMC styled attacks be created then simply shoved on an old frame to make it more "palitable" for some users.  

We have master blade, it's Excalibur, and he's an E-spam machine because DE didn't give a f*ck about making it's combos worth using pr adding bonus when using other abilities while EB is active. Ash would benefit from not making the same mistake. What do you prefer? Some of the awesome (not to mention way more interactive) moves or the same clipshow with bad camera angles we've been staring at for the last 3 years?

5 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Knight Raime said:

You could argue that a fatal teleport ash is more efficient than using blade storm at all.  Besides limiting your weapon choice in this regard you're also going down a dark path.  If all players ever did was play for efficiency then there would be no reason for half the weapons/frames to exist currently.

Actually FT is more effective than BS even without Covert Lethality, as the sheer Finisher multiplier on almost all melee weapons scales much better than BS ever would. I still oneshot Bombards at lvl 150-200s with my Nikana, so CL is not required.

5 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Knight Raime said:

No CC ability is ever going to match the power of loki's radial disarm unless it also severely weakens or outright kills enemies scaling forever as an example.

As an example, what if every time Loki dissarms instead of costing 100 energy and be a radial instant, he had to enter into a marking mode, mark everything at 15 to 45 cost per mark, THEN dissarm, in a process that takes 1-1,5s per enemy marked?

5 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Knight Raime said:

At the end of the day I just feel like everyone expects reworks/revisits to do one thing or to completely change the frame.  When that's never been the goal or intention of them.  The only frame that was as close to an exception to this was limbo.  Limbo was an entirely different case.  He was designed with a very specific theme in mind that just was not met with his set of abilities as they were pre rework.  

Actually his abilities worked pre-rework, now they sort of work better, sure some players preferred the old style, but overall it was a good change. Now compare to Ash where the ONLY positive change is that we can cast Smoke Screen on the move, and BS got nerfed into pointlessness.

5 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Knight Raime said:

You could argue that "blade storm" envokes a certain idea and that it's not being met with it's current form.  However it does envoke what DE set out to accomplish with ash.  An ability that targets multiple enemies and ash teleports around real fast to each enemy.

Which was "Nerf Ash into the ground" as that's what happened, though it's more obvious in Conclave where his abilities have been nigh useless (SS, current TP) useless (old TP, Shuriken) to "so useless it's detrimental" (BS since the revisit).

We stand to correct that, even if we have to crack open the engine and code a playable demo rework ourselves just to show DE how it's done.

5 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Knight Raime said:

The only reason it got changed so heavily was due to trolling purposes and nuke capability.  The base "idea" of the ability was fine as far as DE was concerned right from launch.  Which is why we still have cutscene ash.

Not really, initially it was deemed too slow, so DE added clones to assisst in clearing up faster. And it costed 100 energy and marked 18 targets and all that. They just nerfed into the current sh*tty status that is actually weaker than Launch BS because there were many threads of "nerf ash". So they did so in a way to save face, namely dangling a shiny skin and hoping players would dumb enough to fall for it and consider Ash to be better, contrary to all mathematical and empyrical evidence, which worked partially as there are still many morons who think Ash is "fine" or "better than in the past", to the chargrin of savvy players who see the truth and want to set things straight.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

1 minute ago, Nazrethim said:

No it is not. It's the weakest the ability has been ever. If original BS was bad, this is worse. The marking mechanics works on paper but not in game, and that's for PvE, in PvP using BS marks you as a huge noob because the ability is flat out detrimental to ash to even attempt to use.

Reworks are supposed also to fix critical isues with the frame, something that Ash Revisit didn't. One of the key issues was endless cutscene and ease of spam as well as Effi being a godstat. DE fixed the spam part, but increased cost by 200 to 800% making Effi flat out mandatory to even do 1/3rd as well as previous iteration and increased the cutscene time by 200%, making the problems worse. Hydroid, Oberon and Limbo all got mostly upgrades to make their gameplay better was Ash was simply nerfed.

Yeah, because Excalibur is not the same without Super Jump, right? The point most of us who still want to see Ash be treated fair want something that solves the problems of BS, which are in it's core mechanics, hence why it needs to be partially or completely scrapped, while still keeping his theme and acrobatic stabby awesomeness.

We have master blade, it's Excalibur, and he's an E-spam machine because DE didn't give a f*ck about making it's combos worth using pr adding bonus when using other abilities while EB is active. Ash would benefit from not making the same mistake. What do you prefer? Some of the awesome (not to mention way more interactive) moves or the same clipshow with bad camera angles we've been staring at for the last 3 years?

Actually FT is more effective than BS even without Covert Lethality, as the sheer Finisher multiplier on almost all melee weapons scales much better than BS ever would. I still oneshot Bombards at lvl 150-200s with my Nikana, so CL is not required.

As an example, what if every time Loki dissarms instead of costing 100 energy and be a radial instant, he had to enter into a marking mode, mark everything at 15 to 45 cost per mark, THEN dissarm, in a process that takes 1-1,5s per enemy marked?

Actually his abilities worked pre-rework, now they sort of work better, sure some players preferred the old style, but overall it was a good change. Now compare to Ash where the ONLY positive change is that we can cast Smoke Screen on the move, and BS got nerfed into pointlessness.

Which was "Nerf Ash into the ground" as that's what happened, though it's more obvious in Conclave where his abilities have been nigh useless (SS, current TP) useless (old TP, Shuriken) to "so useless it's detrimental" (BS since the revisit).

We stand to correct that, even if we have to crack open the engine and code a playable demo rework ourselves just to show DE how it's done.

Not really, initially it was deemed too slow, so DE added clones to assisst in clearing up faster. And it costed 100 energy and marked 18 targets and all that. They just nerfed into the current sh*tty status that is actually weaker than Launch BS because there were many threads of "nerf ash". So they did so in a way to save face, namely dangling a shiny skin and hoping players would dumb enough to fall for it and consider Ash to be better, contrary to all mathematical and empyrical evidence, which worked partially as there are still many morons who think Ash is "fine" or "better than in the past", to the chargrin of savvy players who see the truth and want to set things straight.

~I don't care for pvp and I don't think pvp has any barring on how the abilities should work at large.  If you wana change how blade storm works in pvp fine.  Pvp ignores frame design anyway in favor of balance.

~The cutscene is not a tangible issue.  It's a community perceived problem.  So saying the rework didn't fix that "critical issue" is moot.  It really doesn't matter that they increased the cost.  As you have both efficiency and cloaking to reduce the cost.  He doesn't have energy cost problems unlike saryn.  And there are plenty of people who would argue with you how the reworked frames you mentioned are not better off or are worse using pretty much the same logic you're using against me.  You simply have a different perspective because you care very much about Ash.

~faulty example.  Super jump has absolutely nothing to do with the theme of excalibur.  That being a master of a single blade.  He still has a movement based ability that fits that theme.  Slash dash.  Try again.

~I have outwordly spoken in other ash threads in the past that I actually like the cutscene.  What I was referring to was for them to create a warframe that is the master of many melee weapons.  Not one like excalibur.  Because that theme is more fitting of someone who could do DMC type stuff.

~Even if that's the case my argument about playing only the most efficient way possible still stands.  Prefrence and personal taste are things that come into line when deciding what to use.  Those things would be discarded if you only cared about what was objectively the best.  Warframe has gotten to a point where you can take anything anywhere with the right setup.  So having the best objectively possible thing isn't needed.  Thus that mindset is pointless and doesn't bring anything beneficial to the game.

~It's a nice attempt to make me feel how screwed over you feel his ability was made.  But it won't work.  1) because I hate loki from a design perspective anyway.  2) your reply here doesn't address my point to begin with you're side tracking which is strawmanning because you can't argue back against it.  and 3) that would never be needed on loki because he's always at risk when casting the ability.  and he needs to know when to cast it in order to keep people refreshed and also catch any new spawning enemies.  As compared to old blade storm that was instant and had basically no risk what so ever on top of nuke capability.

~I'm pretty sure shuriken wasn't as good as it is now.  the smoke on the move is a huge buff. You were not able to teleport to anything but enemies pre rework.  now you can go to containers which is added mobility and to allies for a quick invisible revive with the potential to cloak them on stand up as well with his augment.  Blade storm needed to be nerfed and it is still plenty strong.  Just not nuke room strong.

~Uneeded hate speech aside you're still wrong.  They added in the clones yes.  But i'm talking about the major rework aka why it is the way it is now.  People could troll allies by having low damage and keeping a single target locked in place till it died.  DE had openly made an acknowledgement about this.  They also openly stated that it was frustrating for players to have an ash off screen make an enemy invulnerable to damage even if ash wasn't hitting it yet which is another troll like thing.  And finally people were able to nuke with ash very easily.  Which was basically what kick started their giant campaign of reworking all the old frames.  They sought to rebalance the player power ratio by making kits having to be more interactive at the cost of some power.

Finally ash blade storm might not be as hard hitting as it used to be.  but in relevant content it is strong enough.  It just comes down to people being sour because they didn't get their dream rework.  Ash got the QOL changes he needed.  Ash's cutscene is not a real problem.  Never was.  Never will be.  Just as some people think making puddle the center of the stage on hydroid is "against the game play" since you are hampered movement wise.  But that's not an actual issue.  Just players being pissy because they didn't get the hydroid they thought up.  Revisits/reworks and QOL and potential buffs/nerfs.  They add synergy and interaction to the kit.  all whilst still keeping DE's perceived theme of the frame.  Like it or not Ashe's rework did all of that.  

[Nazrethim]

4 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Knight Raime said:

~I don't care for pvp and I don't think pvp has any barring on how the abilities should work at large.  If you wana change how blade storm works in pvp fine.  Pvp ignores frame design anyway in favor of balance.

Except that Ash's PvP problems stem from DE not adressing the PvE side, because the abilities have mechanical problems, not statistical problems. Made even more infuriating by nerfing the mechanics while having the same stats as the mechanically superior old versions. For example, it was a common complaint that Shuriken tracking was too good and it's damage too high. Nerfing any of those would have been fine, but nerfing both would have been terrible and made the ability useless. DE did both and to the surprise of nobody, Shuriken in PvP is useless. BS falls into the same category except much worse, and it's all because DE didn't want to try too hard to properly fix the frame.

Also, a frame with PvP balance considered into it's design is actually a good move as it would inherently be mechanically balanced for PvE, with just stat changes applied and some minor mechanical changes. That makes jumping between PvE and PvP smoother as you aren't confronted with a totally different frame.

4 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Knight Raime said:

~The cutscene is not a tangible issue.  It's a community perceived problem.  So saying the rework didn't fix that "critical issue" is moot.  It really doesn't matter that they increased the cost.  As you have both efficiency and cloaking to reduce the cost.  He doesn't have energy cost problems unlike saryn.  And there are plenty of people who would argue with you how the reworked frames you mentioned are not better off or are worse using pretty much the same logic you're using against me.  You simply have a different perspective because you care very much about Ash.

The cutscene in itself isn't, just how long you get locked in it. It's uninteractive. You just sit and wathc the game play itself. THAT is a design problem, problem that this current BS made much worse. The cost is very important, because old used 100 energy, meaning you could have build diversity and choose what to mod for, right now if you want to use BS at all (that is, 1/3rd of how effective it was) you need to stack max Efficiency, invisibility of some kind (that renders keeping the cutscenes moot) and Zenurik (both Effi and Zen are actually broken from a balance perspective, yes, you need 2 broken mechanics just to make an ability even worth using). A properly balanced frame would be able to do well, not super amaizing, just well, with default power stats, and Ash does...so long as you NEVER EVER use EnergySinkStorm. The recent reworked frames work with default power values, Oberon and Limbo work fine, Hydroid I haven't tested yet (gonna wait to get Prime cause I hate Vay Hek's bs). Saryn does have energy problems, I admit, and I don't think that should be a thing either. I have a perspective of "good game design: interactivity, build diversity, balanced (for both pve and pvp)", it doesn't matter which frame.

4 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Knight Raime said:

~faulty example.  Super jump has absolutely nothing to do with the theme of excalibur.  That being a master of a single blade.  He still has a movement based ability that fits that theme.  Slash dash.  Try again.

The point is that discarding an outdated mechanic did no harm to the frame. That's the lesson to learn and why I compare BS to Super Jump, BS is simply outdated and needs a proper rework. This thread provides excellent alternatives to the clunky garbage we have now.

4 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Knight Raime said:

~I have outwordly spoken in other ash threads in the past that I actually like the cutscene.  What I was referring to was for them to create a warframe that is the master of many melee weapons.  Not one like excalibur.  Because that theme is more fitting of someone who could do DMC type stuff.

Yes, but remember that Ash has his own weapons too, and the cutscenes you so much love do feature him doing crazy martial moves. So a Stance Ultimate pulling from those wouldn't be a problem as it would still be Ash.

4 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Knight Raime said:

~Even if that's the case my argument about playing only the most efficient way possible still stands.  Prefrence and personal taste are things that come into line when deciding what to use.  Those things would be discarded if you only cared about what was objectively the best.  Warframe has gotten to a point where you can take anything anywhere with the right setup.  So having the best objectively possible thing isn't needed.  Thus that mindset is pointless and doesn't bring anything beneficial to the game.

And you mentioned buidling for Efficiency in a previous paragraph. Okay, I can see no failure in logic here.

4 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Knight Raime said:

~It's a nice attempt to make me feel how screwed over you feel his ability was made.  But it won't work.  1) because I hate loki from a design perspective anyway.  2) your reply here doesn't address my point to begin with you're side tracking which is strawmanning because you can't argue back against it.  and 3) that would never be needed on loki because he's always at risk when casting the ability.  and he needs to know when to cast it in order to keep people refreshed and also catch any new spawning enemies.  As compared to old blade storm that was instant and had basically no risk what so ever on top of nuke capability.

Good thing you hate Loki, I don't, I don't like him, but couldn't say I hate him, in fact he may need some upgrades but I couldn't tell what to be done (aside from maybe making decoy not die instantly).

You also missed the point. If Loki got the same treatment BS did, then it would be pointless to even use. That's the lesson to learn from that.

4 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Knight Raime said:

~I'm pretty sure shuriken wasn't as good as it is now.  the smoke on the move is a huge buff. You were not able to teleport to anything but enemies pre rework.  now you can go to containers which is added mobility and to allies for a quick invisible revive with the potential to cloak them on stand up as well with his augment.  Blade storm needed to be nerfed and it is still plenty strong.  Just not nuke room strong.

Shuriken received no changes from the revisit. Smoke Screen got the cast on the move upgrade and nothing else (still has a painfully short duration and a nigh useless stagger), Teleport to allies has always been a thing and teleport to objects is a mixed bag as sometimes it royally scr*ws you over by determining a 1-foot tall box is your target and not the humongous bombard behind it, or telebugging you inside crates, blunts or other objects. BS needed to be reworked, not nerfed, there's a big difference there. Nerfing it made it pointless, buffing it to old levels is going backwards, rework is the key here.

4 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Knight Raime said:

~Uneeded hate speech aside you're still wrong.  They added in the clones yes.  But i'm talking about the major rework aka why it is the way it is now.  People could troll allies by having low damage and keeping a single target locked in place till it died.  DE had openly made an acknowledgement about this.  They also openly stated that it was frustrating for players to have an ash off screen make an enemy invulnerable to damage even if ash wasn't hitting it yet which is another troll like thing.  And finally people were able to nuke with ash very easily.  Which was basically what kick started their giant campaign of reworking all the old frames.  They sought to rebalance the player power ratio by making kits having to be more interactive at the cost of some power.

I rarely had that problem. You know why? I didn't spam BS, I used it to clear crowds but first I made sure no Eximi was in range (and if it was I dispatched it first with Teleport or my guns) so I wouldn't get stuck. Problem was the mindless spammers, who shockingly, were able to spam because of Max Effi builds (see a theme?). So, instead of nerfing an ability that works well and rewards being attentive, why not nerf what made it broken? #DELogic

4 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Knight Raime said:

Finally ash blade storm might not be as hard hitting as it used to be.  but in relevant content it is strong enough.

Yeah, because "weaker  and more expensive than a frikin defensive ability and a goodish melee weapon" is "strong enough".

It's damage actually was buffed, from 1800 to 2000. That's roughly 11% damage increase, it just came with a 200-800% increase in cost and 200% increase in cutscene uninteractive time. You may see that those values aren't precisely balanced,  or not, depending on how much in denial you are.

4 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Knight Raime said:

  They add synergy and interaction to the kit.  all whilst still keeping DE's perceived theme of the frame.  Like it or not Ashe's rework did all of that.  

What synergy? oh sure, invisibility makes it cheaper. 30% cheaper, which doesn't counter a 200-800% increase in cost. Ash Revisit (notice it doesn't say "rework") just acomplished ONE positive thing: SS cast on the move. Everything else was either left to rot (Shuriken, other aspects of Smoke Screen) got a useful not-so-useful QoL tweak (TP onto objects, which is still buggy as hell and impractical for moving around due to random object placement) or got nerfed into the ground because a specific set up was making it broken (instead of nerfing what made it broken). Funny thing, the people who made Ash broken (Max Effi spammers) barely got affected by the nerf, the ones most affected were the players who didn't spam BS and used Ash's full kit. So even in that aspect the revisit backfired (at least as far as "making ash better" goes, if their intention was to nerf the frame, they did a fantastic job at it, specially when they managed to do it while fooling so many into thinking the changes were good)