A problem with logic

[ImpyMidna]

4 hours ago, Archistopheles said:

iF EXcaLIBur iS a SWorD, Y dOes BLadEs efFeCT hIM

 

Because having mastery over an element does not make you immune to that element. Dungeons and Dragons have had this for decades: Just because a Wizard can throw a fireball doesn't mean he's immune to fire.

You obviously think to hard. A wizard has the ability to cast a fireball. Since you want to bring D&D to the topic; how about a wizard blasting a Fire elemental with FIRE- the attack is rendered useless. YoUr AnAlOGy'S ArE FiRe.

Edited September 8, 2017 by ImpyMidna

[Archistopheles]

Just now, ImpyMidna said:

You honestly think to hard. A wizard has the ability to cast a fireball. Since you want to bring D&D to the topic; how about a wizard blasting a Fire elemental with FIRE- the attack is rendered useless. YoUr AnAlOGy'S ArE FiRe.

Prove that a Warframe is an elemental.

You can't cuz they're not. We're space wizards, son.

[ImpyMidna]

3 minutes ago, Archistopheles said:

Prove that a Warframe is an elemental.

You can't cuz they're not. We're space wizards, son.

Read Volt's bio? "Volt can create and harness elements of electricity" 
Read Frosts bio too since you're there. 
"but prove a warframe is an elemental"
Lmao, we're done here.

Edited September 8, 2017 by ImpyMidna

[InquisitorMaximus]

2 minutes ago, Archistopheles said:

Prove that a Warframe is an elemental.

You can't cuz they're not. We're space wizards, son.

 

[(PSN)abbacephas]

1 minute ago, ImpyMidna said:

Read Volt's bio? "Volt can create and harness elements of electricity" 
Read Frosts bio too since you're there. 

Have you bothered to read anything anyone else has posted in this thread on that very topic?

[Archistopheles]

1 minute ago, ImpyMidna said:

Read Volt's bio? "Volt can create and harness elements of electricity" 

Maybe there's a language barrier, because where I'm from, that means Volt is able to create and use electricity. It does not mean Volt is electricity.

2 minutes ago, ImpyMidna said:

Read Frosts bio too since you're there. 

"By channeling moisture and vapor in the surrounding environment"

Same thing. He can control frost. He is not frost. Well, he is Frost, but he's not made of frost. He's still made of Shields and Flesh.

[John10925]

2 minutes ago, Archistopheles said:

Maybe there's a language barrier, because where I'm from, that means Volt is able to create and use electricity. It does not mean Volt is electricity.

"By channeling moisture and vapor in the surrounding environment"

Same thing. He can control frost. He is not frost. Well, he is Frost, but he's not made of frost. He's still made of Shields and Flesh.

But it doesn't really matter if they're made of the element or not. Sub-Zero is a human but he isn't made of ice yet he isn't affected by it. So to have are elemental warframes get affected by the very element there are able to control is unsatisfying.

[InquisitorMaximus]

1 minute ago, Archistopheles said:

Maybe there's a language barrier, because where I'm from, that means Volt is able to create and use electricity. It does not mean Volt is electricity.

"By channeling moisture and vapor in the surrounding environment"

Same thing. He can control frost. He is not frost. Well, he is Frost, but he's not made of frost. He's still made of Shields and Flesh.

Exactly, in the argument offered by the OP, comparing the attack of a Wizard "blasting a fire elemental with fire" thus rendering the Wizard's attack noneffective, the situation is this: in D&D an Elemental is a being PURELY composed of one of the four classical elements, hence their immunity or high resistance to such element... So the offered argument even when true within its own universe, it's not appropriate for the discussion as originally proposed. 

[(PSN)abbacephas]

2 minutes ago, John10925 said:

 Sub-Zero is a human but he isn't made of ice yet he isn't affected by it. 

You were saying?

[InquisitorMaximus]

2 minutes ago, John10925 said:

But it doesn't really matter if they're made of the element or not. Sub-Zero is a human but he isn't made of ice yet he isn't affected by it. So to have are elemental warframes get affected by the very element there are able to control is unsatisfying.

Sub-Zero is a Cryomancer (same as Bi-Han, Ice & Frost [Mortal Kombat´s Frost]), but once again, we can not extrapolate rules from one universe to the other, even when Teshin looks similar to Lord Raiden. he is not :]

[Archistopheles]

2 minutes ago, John10925 said:

Sub-Zero is a human but he isn't made of ice yet he isn't affected by it.

Wrong. Sorry.

 

[John10925]

 

4 minutes ago, Archistopheles said:

Wrong. Sorry.

 

 You're saying just because he is affected on multiplayer matches he isn't immune, the whole premise of your statement if off of a multiplayer match. Which is supposed to be balanced so you as the player, have a fair chance of beating the other player. 

[John10925]

@Archistopheles but this is getting out of topic so I'm done talking.

 

[Archistopheles]

4 minutes ago, John10925 said:

 

 You're saying just because he is affected on multiplayer matches he isn't immune, the whole premise of your statement if off of a multiplayer match. Which is supposed to be balanced so you as the player, have a fair chance of beating the other player. 

 

2 minutes ago, John10925 said:

but this is getting out of topic so I'm done talking.

 

That's a shame, because I can't find anything to confirm what you said is true. I was hoping you knew where to find it. Here's his Wiki 

"Having descended from a race of Outworld inhabitants known as Cryomancers, Sub-Zero has the innate ability to control ice in many forms. Throughout the span of the series, Sub-Zero's powers have continued to evolve. Aside from flash-freezing opponents, Sub-Zero also has the ability to instantly conjure up an ice statue of himself to act as both a scapegoat and a 'landmine' of sorts as any who touch it instantly flash freeze. Since having taken possession of the Dragon Medallion, the scope of Sub-Zero's powers and abilities has increased significantly. As a member of the Lin Kuei, Sub-Zero has attained a great degree of skill in many forms of hand-to-hand combat. The Dragon Medallion and his ancestral armor increased and amplified his martial arts and ice-related abilities, as shown in his Deception Arcade ending. Throughout the Mortal Kombat series, Sub-Zero's abilities have grown more powerful; he can even transform his body into a liquefied state, solid state or transform his body into solid ice at will. Raiden has commented that Sub-Zero is more powerful than his brother."

The closest thing I could see here is that he can turn his body into solid ice, which Warframe cannot do. Actually becoming ice might protect him from other ice attacks, but again, you don't accept "Mirror Matches" as proof, so there's no way to tell.

And that's the new Sub-zero. The old one wasn't even that strong.

[Tsukinoki]

@OP
This is a topic that used to be a dead horse but the forums have beaten it so much that there isn't even a pulpy mess left....

DE has said no to this quite a few times because of how stupidly unbalanced it would be.

For example lets look at Frost shall we?
There are three enemies in the entire game that deal ice damage and two environmental sources.
The enemies are the extremely rare Corpus Galaxion capture target, The first half of the lech kril fight, and Hyena LN2 (which isn't even a gauranteed spawn when fighting the hyena boss).
The environmental sources are the Cryo barrels and standing too far away from the heaters on Europa.
And you seriously want to replace his passive, which is much more useful than your idea, with an elemental passive which will do absolutely nothing and could be replaced by the passive "Chills all cocktails to the perfect drinking temperature!" and have the exact same effect on gameplay as your idea.

What about Mag?
There are two sources of magnetic damage in the entire game!  And here's the thing: they barely deal any magnetic damage and instead are mostly just a proc which damage resistance wont help you against!  After all it doesn't matter how much damage you resist if it happens to proc (such as the sensor bars 100% proc chance)
Even her current passive is more useful than a magnetic damage resistance passive would be!
The sources for magnetic damage are: Grineer Sensor Bars and Disrupter Ancient melee attacks.
Hyena TH just has a disrupter aura that doesn't deal any magnetic damage, and the disrupter aura granted to other infested just drain energy directly without dealing any magnetic damage.

What about Volt?
It would at least be more useful than the previous two.
He would resist: Prod Crewman, Sniper Crewman, Ratels, Nullifiers, Sapping osprey, Hyena TH, Comba and Scrambus that use the Lecta, Electric Crawlers, shock eximi, Arc Traps and electrified water.
Pretty good mixture here compared to the others, especially since he resists a boss and some of the harder hitting enemies in the game (snipers and nullifiers), though for the most part the electric damage is so low as to not be noticeable so its still on the weak side.

What about Saryn?
While she doesn't resist the bredth of enemies that Volt does her resist is much more impactful due to how toxic damage works and would essentially make her unkillable on infested missions.
After all she would resist: Lobber Crawlers, Toxic Crawlers, Mutalist Osprey, Toxic ancients and the aura that they grant other infested, Juggernaut, Lephantis and Mutalist Alad V, and most recently the Nox.
Still not as useful as her current passive though of 25% longer status...but against infested it would be OP as hek.

And finally lets look at Ember, shall we?
There are: Flameblades, Scorches, Napalms, Hyekka Master, Ambulas, Fusion Moa, Hyena NG, Lech Kril second half, Sargas Ruk.
Basically she would be granted immunity against some of the hardest hitting enemies in the entire game and her passive would be miles better than anyone else.
DE in the past completely removed Overheat because it made ember too tanky for their liking...and you essentially want to try to go back to making her extra tanky against some of the heaviest damage dealing units in the game?

This idea is simply way too unbalanced to be put into the game.  Some frames would get literally nothing (Frost) while others would get something stupidly OP (saryn, ember).

Edited September 8, 2017 by Tsukinoki

[(PSN)abbacephas]

16 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

@OP
This is a topic that used to be a dead horse but the forums have beaten it so much that there isn't even a pulpy mess left....

DE has said no to this quite a few times because of how stupidly unbalanced it would be.

For example lets look at Frost shall we?
There are three enemies in the entire game that deal ice damage and two environmental sources.
The enemies are the extremely rare Corpus Galaxion capture target, The first half of the lech kril fight, and Hyena LN2 (which isn't even a gauranteed spawn when fighting the hyena boss).
The environmental sources are the Cryo barrels and standing too far away from the heaters on Europa.
And you seriously want to replace his passive, which is much more useful than your idea, with an elemental passive which will do absolutely nothing and could be replaced by the passive "Chills all cocktails to the perfect drinking temperature!" and have the exact same effect on gameplay as your idea.

What about Mag?
There are two sources of magnetic damage in the entire game!  And here's the thing: they barely deal any magnetic damage and instead are mostly just a proc which damage resistance wont help you against!  After all it doesn't matter how much damage you resist if it happens to proc (such as the sensor bars 100% proc chance)
Even her current passive is more useful than a magnetic damage resistance passive would be!
The sources for magnetic damage are: Grineer Sensor Bars and Disrupter Ancient melee attacks.
Hyena TH just has a disrupter aura that doesn't deal any magnetic damage, and the disrupter aura granted to other infested just drain energy directly without dealing any magnetic damage.

What about Volt?
It would at least be more useful than the previous two.
He would resist: Prod Crewman, Sniper Crewman, Ratels, Nullifiers, Sapping osprey, Hyena TH, Comba and Scrambus that use the Lecta, Electric Crawlers, shock eximi, Arc Traps and electrified water.
Pretty good mixture here compared to the others, especially since he resists a boss and some of the harder hitting enemies in the game (snipers and nullifiers), though for the most part the electric damage is so low as to not be noticeable so its still on the weak side.

What about Saryn?
While she doesn't resist the bredth of enemies that Volt does her resist is much more impactful due to how toxic damage works and would essentially make her unkillable on infested missions.
After all she would resist: Lobber Crawlers, Toxic Crawlers, Mutalist Osprey, Toxic ancients and the aura that they grant other infested, Juggernaut, Lephantis and Mutalist Alad V, and most recently the Nox.
Still not as useful as her current passive though of 25% longer status...but against infested it would be OP as hek.

And finally lets look at Ember, shall we?
There are: Flameblades, Scorches, Napalms, Hyekka Master, Ambulas, Fusion Moa, Hyena NG, Lech Kril second half, Sargas Ruk.
Basically she would be granted immunity against some of the hardest hitting enemies in the entire game and her passive would be miles better than anyone else.
DE in the past completely removed Overheat because it made ember too tanky for their liking...and you essentially want to try to go back to making her extra tanky against some of the heaviest damage dealing units in the game?

This idea is simply way too unbalanced to be put into the game.  Some frames would get literally nothing (Frost) while others would get something stupidly OP (saryn, ember).

To add to this, what about Chroma? He can change elements based on his energy colour. Or Excalibur with the Chromatic Bladed augment.

Where does it end?

[InquisitorMaximus]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

To add to this, what about Chroma? He can change elements based on his energy colour. Or Excalibur with the Chromatic Bladed augment.

Where does it end?

Furthermore, the OP is not simply asking for resistance but for immunity, such as Atlas' immunity to knockdown effects while on ground (or even like Inaros' Negation Swarm -even when that's not actual immunity- or standing at Oberon's Hallowed Ground), imagine that! 

[Tesseract7777]

1 hour ago, ImpyMidna said:

Read Volt's bio? "Volt can create and harness elements of electricity" 
Read Frosts bio too since you're there. 
"but prove a warframe is an elemental"
Lmao, we're done here.

It seems you don't understand what an elemental is. That's unfortunate. 

An elemental is a being made up entirely of a single element. In fantasy, this is depicted by a being that will often take on a vaguely humanish shape, but is clearly just a mass of swirling wind or a sketchy outline of electricity that floats around shocking things or something. This kind of enemy is fairly common in a lot of popular MMO's. 

You are mixing up elemental mage and elemental, which are two entirely different things in fantasy. 

You're done here. You don't know what you are talking about. 

 

Edited September 8, 2017 by Tesseract7777

[ImpyMidna]

26 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

n elemental is a being made up entirely of a single element. In fantasy, this is depicted by a being that will often take on a vaguely humanish shape, but is clearly just a mass of swirling wind or a sketchy outline of electricity that floats around shocking things or something. This kind of enemy is fairly common in a lot of popular MMO's. 

You are mixing up elemental mage and elemental, which are two entirely different things in fantasy. 

LMFAO which is why i said I was done with his analogy; but it seems you took the time to explain it. Kudos to you homie. 

[ArtisticLlama]

I don't see much of a big deal with frames with an elemental theme having some form of resistance to the element they use.

Something like half status duration and slightly reduced damage doesn't sound gamebreaking. The argument about whether it "makes sense" due to how the video game variables are considered to work in-universe is dumb and I don't care to get involved.

[(XBOX)Cotton Tail]

A problem with logic occurs in naive set theory, as if you define X to be the set of all sets that are not members of themselves you have Russell's paradox right there....

 

I'll get me coat

[Andaius]

1 hour ago, ArtisticLlama said:

I don't see much of a big deal with frames with an elemental theme having some form of resistance to the element they use.

Something like half status duration and slightly reduced damage doesn't sound gamebreaking. The argument about whether it "makes sense" due to how the video game variables are considered to work in-universe is dumb and I don't care to get involved.

Whats not "game breaking" about half of the elemental frames having "worthless" passives vs pretty much not used elements by the enemy factions and the other 2 being so good vs 2 of the 3 factions that it ensures that they are used when fighting them?

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

Watch the Saryn Prime cinematic video.

"Fight poison with poison" clearly implies that being able to produce it does not give immunity to it. It's why Saryn was created to fight the infestation, the greatest source of toxin in our enemies. Yet they are beaten by it.

As i've mentioned in other threads, there are certain frames that thematically could be resistant to their elements based on their passive interactions with them like Ember, Mag, and Volt since they are able to manipulate those elements to a degree without using any void energy at all. But game balance prevents that in most cases. I still think Ember (who I'm not a fan of generally) still deserves fire resistance considering she buffs herself from fire showing she can harness it as an external power source, but is also extremely squishy.

[Madway7]

I've heard 1 general thing against this.

A flamethrower can be burned

A freezer can be frozen

 

Basically that something can use an element does not mean that its immune to it.