World on Fire, Again.

[ShogunNoir]

This isn't anything that hasn't been said before, but the World on Fire ult really needs to be changed to a more interactive ultimate for Ember. Purely because of the people that abuse it's unholy range and power. 

If I'm in a public Fissure Extermination, instead of Warframe being the usual ninja-hack-and-slash-shoot-'em-up awesomeness, when a WoF Ember joins it turns into a hiking simulator where you collect 10 golden orbs from ashes and continue to the green arrow. It removes any fun from the Fissure missions because you're just following the Ember (or multiple Embers) in their wake of destruction.

And Interceptions; I came across an example where there were 3 WoF Embers all idling on a point with WoF active. I decided to leave in the end because I didn't much like the idea of waiting around for however many rounds those players want to play.

And I'm sure I'll draw the ire of the Meta community with such quality lines of 'If you don't like it then go Solo' or 'I haven't got time to go around killing enemies' and my favourite 'I only go public so that I can use other people's relics'  

But I don't see why I should have to go Solo. On the rare occasion that I want to join a team, I want to feel like I'm actually contributing, not following in their footsteps because I was foolish enough to expect to KILL something. (Being a Harrow main, this can prove especially problematic) And because it seems the only reason I'm here is to give the Meta player another relic to choose from.

That's my rant done, I'll leave you to your regularly scheduled program.  

 

[Soketsu]

You don't need to go solo, you can also make your own squad, with less embers. Not putting another frame in the under used warframes list, look at ash, it's thread like who put him in this situation.

The only fair thing that might happen, is an improved pub matchmaking.

But please don't think changing ember will change something to your, issue, plenty of stuff can clear low level foes like ember.

 

*sight* people did really forgot the era when killing ennemies was not what matters, but the mission, the objectives ?

[Leahzar]

35 minutes ago, ShogunNoir said:

when a WoF Ember joins it turns into a hiking simulator where you collect 10 golden orbs from ashes and continue to the green arrow.

 

36 minutes ago, ShogunNoir said:

And Interceptions; I came across an example where there were 3 WoF Embers all idling on a point with WoF active.

The reason you see people doing this is because they are most probably farming traces. The missions you ran were low level, yes? Because WoF drops off rather quickly when you reach mid to high level content. When people trace farm, they usually farm a few hundred traces in one sitting. Which is very tedious in itself, but even more so if you need to still shoot and kill everything. WoF increases the speed at which you can farm these missions considerably. 

I usually solo-farm if I want to do the ember-WoF-Tier1-exterminate route, but can see that others would probably not be as considerate.

[zNightWolfz]

get the hell over it already if you dont want ember then do it solo or with a group of your choosing but stop asking for ember to be nuked time and time again they changed her enough already if all you going do is ask for nukes on things because they are stronger than you then leave the freaking game and go play other things instead..

[YUNoJump]

1 hour ago, Soketsu said:

You don't need to go solo, you can also make your own squad, with less embers. Not putting another frame in the under used warframes list, look at ash, it's thread like who put him in this situation.

The only fair thing that might happen, is an improved pub matchmaking.

But please don't think changing ember will change something to your, issue, plenty of stuff can clear low level foes like ember.

 

*sight* people did really forgot the era when killing ennemies was not what matters, but the mission, the objectives ?

Ash is the worst case scenario, plenty of other reworks have left frames in at least decent positions. Saryn, Limbo, Oberon to name a few. There's no proof that touching Ember at all will ruin her entirely. There are other things that can auto-wipe the map, but at least any cognitive thought at all goes into killing them; WoF kills at random range, through walls, and the Ember couldn't choose to kill a specific enemy with it even if they wanted to. WoF is the worst offender of the auto-wipe class by default.

The objective is clearly still what matters, if you enter a mission you have pretty much nothing else to do except tasks that get you closer to the objective, killing in a mission is irrelevant if you don't finish the objective. People don't like having all the kills stolen because Warframe is a shooter, and as such it is implied that you are supposed to have fun by shooting stuff. If I wanted to play a game where there's nothing fun to do other than finish an objective, I'd play a walking simulator, but I play Warframe because I enjoy its combat mechanics. Or rather, I enjoy its combat mechanics when there isn't an Ember auto-wiping every enemy before I can touch it.

[Lukkiete]

Okay, can I get some ETA on when these Ember haters will stop whining about how they don't get they kills because of some Ember and how it is annoying? BTW, it is not.

These threads are boring as hell. Ember won't be changed, deal with it. If DE rework Ember, people start complaining about Equinox and her ult. If Equinox is nerfed, they'll get to Mesa and her Peacemakers. If Mesa is nerfed, then next is Titania and her Dex Pixia/Divata.

 

Please, stop.

 

[(PSN)HSomDevil]

People keep complaining about the strength of WoF while it's precisely what it lacks.

[Djego27]

Well I suggested changes to WoF a lot in the past.

The problem is mostly that people are like passive, no effort game play and DE does not really care to change it.

- most people just use the frame for low levels and WoF spam, because it makes farming easy and they would just use something else if WoF would be changed

- you see it here in the thread as well on the first page here that Ember is apparently useless if WoF drops off in damage, what is the common opinion, even if WoF is mostly a CC tool and the damage does not contribute much to the total damage you can do with the frame

- people can not really rate changes to Embers WoF because they do not really understand the frame outside of pressing 4

It is actually just as frustrating for people that main Ember.

On 16.9.2017 at 10:56 AM, zNightWolfz said:

get the hell over it already if you dont want ember then do it solo or with a group of your choosing but stop asking for ember to be nuked time and time again they changed her enough already if all you going do is ask for nukes on things because they are stronger than you then leave the freaking game and go play other things instead..

Ember received nothing then buffs over the years. However the only one people care for is the WoF change, because this apparently it is the only thing the frame can do, instead of what it is in reality, a fairly unreliable method of CC with minor damage component, at least if you look at it from the point of the total damage output you can archive with it.

 

On 16.9.2017 at 11:37 AM, CephalonNiksyn said:

Okay, can I get some ETA on when these Ember haters will stop whining about how they don't get they kills because of some Ember and how it is annoying? BTW, it is not.

These threads are boring as hell. Ember won't be changed, deal with it. If DE rework Ember, people start complaining about Equinox and her ult. If Equinox is nerfed, they'll get to Mesa and her Peacemakers. If Mesa is nerfed, then next is Titania and her Dex Pixia/Divata.

 

Please, stop.

 

What exactly would be so bad at nerfing low level AOE damage spam of Ember, Equinox, Mesa and Titania? Last time I checked Warframe was quite a decent 3d person shooter, so what is so bad that at some people actually wanting to shoot her guns?

 

[Hecro]

2 hours ago, ShogunNoir said:

 'I only go public so that I can use other people's relics'  

Exactly this. Most of us don't have either the spare time or will to wait for you to kill your stuff. I just want to use your relic, in case it gives something interesting. As a consequence, I will just clean everything up to get the fastest way possible to my target.

Listen up, I don't really want to play with you. I'm a Solo player that (as many others) just teams up when it's strictly necessary.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Hecro

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

Nerf Ember and people will switch to Equinox. Nerf Equinox and they'll switch to Mesa. Then Mirage maiming builds. EB builds. Whatever feels grindy the game, efficient players will find the fastest way to complete objectives. 

Stop your whining and join another squad. Even if pubs you can decline if you see frames you don't like. I do it every time I see Limbo. Difference is I don't whine and cry about it.

[Soketsu]

52 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

Ash is the worst case scenario, plenty of other reworks have left frames in at least decent positions. Saryn, Limbo, Oberon to name a few. There's no proof that touching Ember at all will ruin her entirely. There are other things that can auto-wipe the map, but at least any cognitive thought at all goes into killing them; WoF kills at random range, through walls, and the Ember couldn't choose to kill a specific enemy with it even if they wanted to. WoF is the worst offender of the auto-wipe class by default.

The objective is clearly still what matters, if you enter a mission you have pretty much nothing else to do except tasks that get you closer to the objective, killing in a mission is irrelevant if you don't finish the objective. People don't like having all the kills stolen because Warframe is a shooter, and as such it is implied that you are supposed to have fun by shooting stuff. If I wanted to play a game where there's nothing fun to do other than finish an objective, I'd play a walking simulator, but I play Warframe because I enjoy its combat mechanics. Or rather, I enjoy its combat mechanics when there isn't an Ember auto-wiping every enemy before I can touch it.

Yes there is no proof, it works most of time, but one fail, and look ash, one year later, some try to ressurect him but well... in the context there is multile frame who need some buff.

Why can't you just ask for reworked matchmaking instead ?

[LSG501]

4 hours ago, Soketsu said:

*sight* people did really forgot the era when killing ennemies was not what matters, but the mission, the objectives ?

But what's the point in being in a group if one frame is doing all the work, that one frame might as well be doing the mission solo.... it's all very well saying it's objective that matters but some of us actually want to do SOMETHING other than running behind an ember (and others which can do the same) while trying to achieve said objective. 

[Soketsu]

5 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

But what's the point in being in a group if one frame is doing all the work, that one frame might as well be doing the mission solo.... it's all very well saying it's objective that matters but some of us actually want to do SOMETHING other than running behind an ember (and others which can do the same) while trying to achieve said objective. 

You can't understand if you didn't play the old endless void for hours for so many rounds where ennemies where so strong that it is not the dps who do all the "work"

It is not like start chart and sorties were impossible in solo.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Soketsu

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

3 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

There are other things that can auto-wipe the map, but at least any cognitive thought at all goes into killing them; WoF kills at random range, through walls, and the Ember couldn't choose to kill a specific enemy with it even if they wanted to. WoF is the worst offender of the auto-wipe class by default.

Banshee's Sound Quake would like to have a word with you.

[LSG501]

26 minutes ago, Soketsu said:

You can't understand if you didn't play the old endless void for hours for so many rounds where ennemies where so strong that it is not the dps who do all the "work"

It is not like start chart and sorties were impossible in solo.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that 90+% of the map is made up of lower levels where things like wof can basically kill all the enemies.... people aren't complaining about how wof 'ruins the fun' in high level content because a high percentage of current players don't do the 'endless' missions of old.

I also think you misunderstood my point about doing things solo......Some of us actually want to do something other than running from point a to point b while following another frame which is basically just running from point a to point b with it's 4 active.  It was nothing to do with whether a frame can do sorties solo or not. 

16 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Banshee's Sound Quake would like to have a word with you.

Difference is with sound quake, while yes it can kill everything like wof it does actually have some negatives to using it, ie high energy draw and the fact you can't move.  Now don't get me wrong, on small maps this is just as annoying to some as any of the other 'sit in one place with ability active' frames but unlike some of the others it does have downsides. 

Ember's wof (and things like equinox maim) don't really have any 'downsides' to using because they are fixed cost, low energy draw with high damage and can move around freely.  Even mesa's peacemaker has a downside in the way the reticle shrinks etc.

Edited September 16, 2017 by LSG501

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

Just now, LSG501 said:

equinox maim don't really have any 'downsides' to using because they are fixed cost, low energy draw with high damage and can move around freely.

How about the fact that Maim does a set amount of damage to each enemy and then stops? In fact, Maim encourages gunplay more than it discourages it, due to the fact that it can only start killing after you have killed something by other means.

 

[Soketsu]

9 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

You seem to be ignoring the fact that 90+% of the map is made up of lower levels where things like wof can basically kill all the enemies.... people aren't complaining about how wof 'ruins the fun' in high level content because a high percentage of current players don't do the 'endless' missions of old.

I also think you misunderstood my point about doing things solo......Some of us actually want to do something other than running from point a to point b while following another frame which is basically just running from point a to point b with it's 4 active.  It was nothing to do with whether a frame can do sorties solo or not. 

That why I said you can't understand. Perhaps with the right event/mission, and the right allies you may fully understand.

The only thing fair for everyone, it's a reworked matchmaking changing world of fire will not change this issue ("Some of us actually want to do something other than running from point a to point b while following another frame which is basically just running from point a to point b with it's 4 active"), there is plenty of stuff able to do so.

People who ask for changing ash say the same thing and what a big surprise, changing ash didn't change the "issue". Sometime it work but if it fail we trow a wraframe to the trash list, and I'm against it.

The issueyou adress [As I understand its: I have nothing to do, this player absorb all the available fun thing to do in the mission] might be solved forever, ready if a new stuff come out, a warframe reworked or anything else, should be more useful than trying to solve issue, loadout by loadout, in a game where stuff are constantly added.

 

[LSG501]

5 minutes ago, Soketsu said:

That why I said you can't understand. Perhaps with the right event/mission, and the right allies you may fully understand.

The only thing fair for everyone, it's a reworked matchmaking changing world of fire will not change this issue ("Some of us actually want to do something other than running from point a to point b while following another frame which is basically just running from point a to point b with it's 4 active"), there is plenty of stuff able to do so.

People who ask for changing ash say the same thing and what a big surprise, changing ash didn't change the "issue". Sometime it work but if it fail we trow a wraframe to the trash list, and I'm against it.

The issueyou adress [As I understand its: I have nothing to do, this player absorb all the available fun thing to do in the mission] might be solved forever, ready if a new stuff come out, a warframe reworked or anything else, should be more useful than trying to solve issue, loadout by loadout, in a game where stuff are constantly added.

 

I don't think it's me who is misunderstanding the issue with frames like ember and it's wof.  You keep trying to focus on 'high level' stuff but the simple fact is that a high percentage of the game and the people who play it are not doing high level missions. 

It doesn't matter what frame another player has if wof (and as I said other frames which can do the same) keeps killing everything and basically taking away the need for others to be there.... it completely defeats the point in a co-op game if the other people in the group have nothing to do.  It's even worse when you are trying to use a frame that has been designed around the idea that it's abilities have synergy with it's weapon use like harrow.

39 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

How about the fact that Maim does a set amount of damage to each enemy and then stops? In fact, Maim encourages gunplay more than it discourages it, due to the fact that it can only start killing after you have killed something by other means.

Maim can still be built to be just as powerful, arguably more so because it's slash damage, as things like wof on the starmap.  I haven't even bothered to forma equinox (didn't really take to it) and even my relatively simple build is/was (been a while since I bothered with equinox) more than capable of killing stuff without much issue on the starmap. 

[Soketsu]

14 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

I don't think it's me who is misunderstanding the issue with frames like ember and it's wof.  You keep trying to focus on 'high level' stuff but the simple fact is that a high percentage of the game and the people who play it are not doing high level missions. 

It doesn't matter what frame another player has if wof (and as I said other frames which can do the same) keeps killing everything and basically taking away the need for others to be there.... it completely defeats the point in a co-op game if the other people in the group have nothing to do.  It's even worse when you are trying to use a frame that has been designed around the idea that it's abilities have synergy with it's weapon use like harrow.

Maim can still be built to be just as powerful, arguably more so because it's slash damage, as things like wof on the starmap.  I haven't even bothered to forma equinox (didn't really take to it) and even my relatively simple build is/was (been a while since I bothered with equinox) more than capable of killing stuff without much issue on the starmap. 

And you completely discard what I propose you as a way to solve your issue , I think that I've overestimated you right now.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Soketsu

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

4 hours ago, Djego27 said:

Well I suggested changes to WoF a lot in the past.

The problem is mostly that people are like passive, no effort game play and DE does not really care to change it.

- most people just use the frame for low levels and WoF spam, because it makes farming easy and they would just use something else if WoF would be changed

- you see it here in the thread as well on the first page here that Ember is apparently useless if WoF drops off in damage, what is the common opinion, even if WoF is mostly a CC tool and the damage does not contribute much to the total damage you can do with the frame

- people can not really rate changes to Embers WoF because they do not really understand the frame outside of pressing 4

It is actually just as frustrating for people that main Ember.

Ember received nothing then buffs over the years. However the only one people care for is the WoF change, because this apparently it is the only thing the frame can do, instead of what it is in reality, a fairly unreliable method of CC with minor damage component, at least if you look at it from the point of the total damage output you can archive with it.

 

What exactly would be so bad at nerfing low level AOE damage spam of Ember, Equinox, Mesa and Titania? Last time I checked Warframe was quite a decent 3d person shooter, so what is so bad that at some people actually wanting to shoot her guns?

 

If you really believed in what you said, you would realized you suggested an answer to your own question, but its not that simple.

You specifically stated "low level" Aoe damage spam, so i assume you wish to implement damage scaling or a critical system on their abilities, or else its just a nerf. Damage abilities dont work the way cc abilities do.

That. Is. My. Trigger. You said Aoe, and mentioned no effort in the same sentence, but didnt list off an cc frames. Thats why these kinds of threads are ridiculous. People act like molecular prime is fine as is, but youd have to have unmodded weapons and zero experience not to completely massacre the chain exploding puff balls always walking around when a nova is playing because she is too squishy to not spam molecular prime every where all the time past lvl 60. Zero. Fun. Completely ruins the game. Especially if Ember is there.

Also, fire blast needs the lame useless ring of fire removed, an update to something more like oberons hallowed ground would be nice. Fire ball needs splash damage and should remain on the map for a duration, until it burns out...my ideas.

A well rounded rant is the best rant.

Edited September 16, 2017 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO

[Djego27]

On 16.9.2017 at 4:36 PM, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

If you really believed in what you said, you would realized you suggested an answer to your own question, but its not that simple.

You specifically stated "low level" Aoe damage spame, so i assume you wish to implement damage scaling or a critical system on their abilities, or else its just a nerf. Damage abilities dont work the way cc abilities do.

That. Is. My. Trigger. You said Aoe, and mentioned no effort in the same sentence, but didnt list off an cc frames. Thats why these kinds of threads are ridiculous. People act like molecular prime is fine as is, but youd have to have unmodded weapons and zero experience not to completely massacre the chain exploding puff balls always walking around when a nova is playing because she is too squishy to not spam molecular prime every where all the time past lvl 60. Zero. Fun. Completely ruins the game. Especially if Ember is there.

Also, fire blast needs the lame useless ring of fire removed, an update to something more like oberons hallowed ground would be nice. Fire ball needs splash damage and should remain on the map for a duration, until it burns out...my ideas.

A well rounded rant is the best rant.

The question is more about the average beneficial effect on the game as a hole(what I believe in), I am fairly aware that it is not popular.

A simple solution would be to just reduce the WoF damage down to 100 or 50 and add a scaling mechanics like adding 5% of the applied fire damage to the dot, what at least might make some people consider to put fire damage on her weapon before calling Ember bad at higher levels or defending the current WoF mechanic at lower levels for the sake of thinking that is the only thing you can do with Ember. After all WoF is for the most part a CC ability at higher levels and works fine as that.

You actually still need to shoot stuff after priming them, since Nova only brings soft CC(75% speed reduction) and a 200% damage buff to the table(the AOE explosion damage is static and does not matter at higher levels). I also not seeing the wild spread issue with Nova, given that a slow nova increases the time in the mission for most applications and is therefore not really a often used choice for low level missions and I never seen a complaint about a speed nova not making a mission entertaining(down to the point where people run with them into T4D or sortis because checking your build is apparently to hard).

I would actually like fire blast as working area that slows targets down by fire procs within the full area of the ring instead of removing it, even if it would be a bit niche, it would be pretty handy for soloing higher level defence stuff like this:

As for fire ball, while I would like to see a change to it, there is mechanical nothing wrong with it if you compare it to other 1s, it even got some more utility by the AOE(because drum roll it already has splash damage).  If DE ever decides to rework the normal concept of a 1, I would like something like a fire damage buff to the next fire attack on the target that you did hit with fire ball, what would be pretty neat at higher levels and gives it tons of use.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Djego27

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

14 hours ago, Djego27 said:

The question is more about the average beneficial effect on the game as a hole(what I believe in), I am fairly aware that it is not popular.

A simple solution would be to just reduce the WoF damage down to 100 or 50 and add a scaling mechanics like adding 5% of the applied fire damage to the dot, what at least might make some people consider to put fire damage on her weapon before calling Ember bad at higher levels or defending the current WoF mechanic at lower levels for the sake of thinking that is the only thing you can do with Ember. After all WoF is for the most part a CC ability at higher levels and works fine as that.

You actually still need to shoot stuff after priming them, since Nova only brings soft CC(75% speed reduction) and a 200% damage buff to the table(the AOE explosion damage is static and does not matter at higher levels). I also not seeing the wild spread issue with Nova, given that a slow nova increases the time in the mission for most applications and is therefore not really a often used choice for low level missions and I never seen a complaint about a speed nova not making a mission entertaining(down to the point where people run with them into T4D or sortis because checking your build is apparently to hard).

having to shoot stuff doesnt make playing with a nova anyless brain dead.

Theres no challenge and thus no fun playing against a primed crowd. the current solution is to be on the opposite siide of the map or leave the mission, as with Ember.

We need solutions that arent nerfs.

And i would argue with you about fire ball being fine as is. Tempest barrage is the idea of how nice a one should be. For me. Hence the opposite opinion.

 

Edited September 17, 2017 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO
Edit

[YUNoJump]

15 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Banshee's Sound Quake would like to have a word with you.

At least Sound Quake locks Banshee in place and doesn't give her the ability to defend herself at ranges outside of the quake, Ember can move around the map, use her CC abilities as a defence, and in the end, she can just shoot enemies who get to a threatening distance. If you try and use Sound Quake anywhere other than in a mission that doesn't require mobility then it isn't really going to work.

[YUNoJump]

15 hours ago, Soketsu said:

Yes there is no proof, it works most of time, but one fail, and look ash, one year later, some try to ressurect him but well... in the context there is multile frame who need some buff.

Why can't you just ask for reworked matchmaking instead ?

"We could make the problem much worse" is a complaint that could be applied to literally any proposed fixes to an issue. We can (and do really) ask for reworked matchmaking, but there's always the possibility that the new system can't find good squads, or any assortment of other issues. 

I'd rather stick to the idea that we ask for solutions to problems, give feedback, and expect the devs to have at least a semi-decent idea of what to do, as they have had numerous times in the past. Otherwise we're just gonna sit around watching the problems pile up.

[Shockwave-]

22 hours ago, ShogunNoir said:

This isn't anything that hasn't been said before, but the World on Fire ult really needs to be changed to a more interactive ultimate for Ember. Purely because of the people that abuse it's unholy range and power. 

If I'm in a public Fissure Extermination, instead of Warframe being the usual ninja-hack-and-slash-shoot-'em-up awesomeness, when a WoF Ember joins it turns into a hiking simulator where you collect 10 golden orbs from ashes and continue to the green arrow. It removes any fun from the Fissure missions because you're just following the Ember (or multiple Embers) in their wake of destruction.

And Interceptions; I came across an example where there were 3 WoF Embers all idling on a point with WoF active. I decided to leave in the end because I didn't much like the idea of waiting around for however many rounds those players want to play.

And I'm sure I'll draw the ire of the Meta community with such quality lines of 'If you don't like it then go Solo' or 'I haven't got time to go around killing enemies' and my favourite 'I only go public so that I can use other people's relics'  

But I don't see why I should have to go Solo. On the rare occasion that I want to join a team, I want to feel like I'm actually contributing, not following in their footsteps because I was foolish enough to expect to KILL something. (Being a Harrow main, this can prove especially problematic) And because it seems the only reason I'm here is to give the Meta player another relic to choose from.

That's my rant done, I'll leave you to your regularly scheduled program.  

 

unholy range and power? huh? Seriously I'm sorry embers WOF range is not that large, and it's power is not that strong and it is max range it's killing very little.

In a pub fissure exterminate a couple of mirages with ignises can do the same thing as a couple of embers, so can many frames (looking at you equinox). If you aren't staying ahead of the pack on an exterminate you are generally not killing alot of anything. This has nothing to do with Ember.

Interceptions? Really? That's new. Because banshee, slova, limbo... many frames make interceptions pretty easy. I've NEVER seen an ember idling on a point. I've seen limbos do it though.

"But I don't see why I should have to go Solo. "

Because you are complaining. Perhaps the ember loves the fluid movement. Perhaps there are people out there that like hiking simulators. maybe the love doing missions fast. If you are having problem with public missions, then go solo. I have no problem with whatever frame you bring, so i can go public. See how that works? If you are picky, it is up to you to go solo, not demand others play your way.If you want to feel like you are contributing then contribute.