World on Fire, Again.

[low1991]

On 9/16/2017 at 3:43 PM, ShogunNoir said:

This isn't anything that hasn't been said before, but the World on Fire ult really needs to be changed to a more interactive ultimate for Ember. Purely because of the people that abuse it's unholy range and power. 

Stopped reading at bold parts. A max of 26 meters and around 100+ fire damage to 3 target per second isn't unholy enough to be called unholy.

[YUNoJump]

14 hours ago, Andaius said:

I wouldn't even call it "passively" It's short ranged (relatively shotgun range.) Randomly targets, So the Ember player must seek out enemies for them to be targeted and get close to them and stay close to them. If your team mates have weapons that are effective past 20 meters they can kill stuff just as fast as the Ember at low levels.

Except WoF can hit targets without LoS, and fires at a rate of several blasts per second, and doesn't reload, and you don't have to manually select or even register that an enemy exists, and it doesn't have damage falloff or any sort of inaccuracy issues. Shotguns deal more damage per shot, but there's a whole lot of user input and aiming required, as opposed to literally none.

[el_chanis]

11 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

Except WoF can hit targets without LoS, and fires at a rate of several blasts per second, and doesn't reload, and you don't have to manually select or even register that an enemy exists, and it doesn't have damage falloff or any sort of inaccuracy issues. Shotguns deal more damage per shot, but there's a whole lot of user input and aiming required, as opposed to literally none.

So what? The damage dealt by WoF is so weak that even if the range is the entire tileset, it would make zero difference ONCE YOU STOP PLAYING IRRELEVANT LVL MISSIONS.

WoF will feel op if you are fightning grineer flies and mosquitoes. And guess what? EVERYTHING feels op when fighting flies and mosquitos

[YUNoJump]

8 hours ago, el_chanis said:

So what? The damage dealt by WoF is so weak that even if the range is the entire tileset, it would make zero difference ONCE YOU STOP PLAYING IRRELEVANT LVL MISSIONS.

WoF will feel op if you are fightning grineer flies and mosquitoes. And guess what? EVERYTHING feels op when fighting flies and mosquitos

For starters, even if I'm in a mission type where I can kill everything in one shot, I still actually want to participate. There is plenty of low-level content that is relevant in late game (Lith/Meso fissures being the most prominent example). If I'm running, for example, a Lith survival fissure, I don't want to spend 40-60 minutes doing nothing at all. I'd rather spend that time oneshotting mooks than doing absolutely nothing. WoF stops me from doing that.

The other issue is that not everyone is at endgame. It's not that hard to make a damage build once you have corrupted mods (which are by no means endgame content), and then you can bring an endgame WoF build anywhere, ruining the fun that a low-level player may be having in combat with lower level stuff that can be oneshotted by Prime/Meta weapons, but which is more fair against a Strun or Braton. 

The bottom line is that just because level 50-100 is the hardest content, it doesn't mean that everything else is completely irrelevant, and we can't just disregard it. Especially since it's somewhat more important to entertain new players, as veterans are more interesting in progression and strengthening their builds than standard fun times.

[TheLexiConArtist]

2 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

For starters, even if I'm in a mission type where I can kill everything in one shot, I still actually want to participate. There is plenty of low-level content that is relevant in late game (Lith/Meso fissures being the most prominent example). If I'm running, for example, a Lith survival fissure, I don't want to spend 40-60 minutes doing nothing at all. I'd rather spend that time oneshotting mooks than doing absolutely nothing. WoF stops me from doing that.

I wasn't aware the entire procedurally generated map for a given Survival mission is only 35m in size. Or that, in a squad, there were only ever three enemies spawned at once.

At that level, Equinox's single Slash tick does the trick too. Or a lazy sprinkling of most area damage abilities. And those apply to more than three targets at a time.

 

I mean, for christ's sake, a fissure too? It drops nullifiers as a hard prevention measure, and healers interfere as well, even at low levels, enough that it isn't always one-tick-and-done.

 

Frankly, any "must be efficient" Ember probably isn't in a Survival fissure anyway, given a choice, because they're not really speeding up their throughput in that mission type...but if you want to complain, maybe the blame shouldn't go to Ember, but the fissures for being such busywork that, for most people, just needs to be over and done with.

Edited September 25, 2017 by EDYinnit

[YUNoJump]

1 minute ago, EDYinnit said:

I wasn't aware the entire procedurally generated map for a given Survival mission is only 35m in size. Or that, in a squad, there were only ever three enemies spawned at once.

At that level, Equinox's single Slash tick does the trick too. Or a lazy sprinkling of most area damage abilities. And those apply to more than three targets at a time.

 

I mean, for christ's sake, a fissure too? It drops nullifiers as a hard prevention measure, and healers interfere as well, even at low levels, enough that it isn't always one-tick-and-done.

As I have said previously, WoF's effect range doesn't make it balanced when it can damage enemies without LoS or player input, and with a frequency much faster than a human can acquire targets.

Equinox also has a ranged DoT ability, as do many frames, but I'd rather talk about issues than leave the game in an imperfect state just because there is more than one problem with it. This isn't an Equinox thread, it's an Ember thread, so I'm discussing Ember, not Equinox.

Lower level fissures spawn Nullifiers less frequently, and in any setting they are hardly populous enough to prevent 100% of ability damage. They also block (and are depleted by) gunfire, but the thing about WoF is that you still have the ability to use your standard guns to their fullest potential, and the best use of that is to take out priority/CC enemies, like healers and nullifiers. (WoF also works on the far side of a Nullifier bubble, hitting enemies who have LoS blocked by the bubble, but aren't in the bubble, meaning that WoF can get kills on enemies that players using standard weaponry can't). Standard players have to shoot down a Nullifier or healer to do damage, but WoF players do the same while every enemy not in range of those effects is dropped incredibly quickly. Heck, if WoF removed the ability to fire guns, it could actually be pretty balanced.

[KaizergidorahXi]

To be frank, any video game ability where you can just press a single key and then pretty much sit back and do nothing while everything dies around you needs to be changed. Yeah, yeah, I know it only works at low level, but maybe I just want to have a grand time playing with randoms without running the risk of an ember who demands we stay together for affinity farming and then I just end up doing nothing cause the dude has maxed range on WOF and he clears any room he walks into. Like I know why some people defend it but...Like, come on. It needs to change; it's just not fun to play with an Ember who abuses it on your team. And those people who say "Then don't play with an Ember", like...Just stop. If I wanted to spend time building a squad, I wouldn't be playing Random. I don't want to have to be relegated to backup for the Ember frying everything in a 30m radius. Simply put: II's not fun.

[TheLexiConArtist]

@YUNoJump @KaizergidorahXi I'm just going to mention you instead of emptyquoting you both.

Ember's ability is no better than others. In fact, it's almost unilaterally worse.

Primarily among the drawbacks is the target limit, which very few other warframes have to deal with. Have you ever been Ember in a Corpus tile, with your ostensible World that is on Fire actually consisting of two invulnerable closed turrets and one enemy unit while the rest take their merry time peppering you with lasers and such?

 

Neither damage nor range of WoF are that spectacular, with damage at a base of 400 (1200 across the 3 targets) and a range of 15. Even its damage type is poor in every situation. Armour affects it. Shields resist it. Infested take more damage... When there isn't a 90% reduction because of the local Ancient nursing home giving all its residents a day out.

All it has going for it is the natural efficiency, honestly.

 

People seem to operate on this idea that it can be modded for every stat maxed at once. Remember, there's no dump stat in a continuous ability. Duration is codependant with Efficiency.

You can get up to ~1200 base damage (3600 across the 3 targets) with full Power Strength, yes. But then you've annihilated your efficiency... And it's certainly not 30m in range, any more (as that would require Overextended). Unless you're made of paper through compensation mods so that the first enemy that doesn't die instantly to it kills you instead.

 

Now, if you want to talk about high-damage low-efficiency Embers dropping Energy Restores to fund their reigns of terror, then I want you to ask yourself if the problem might not be the lack of anything obstructing the utter ignorance of energy efficiency, and these Ember performances are a symptom, not a cause.

 

Before someone hits me with a /profile and cites my personal majority playtime with Ember.. Yeah, perhaps I have vested interest in not taking that comfort away. But I, for one, don't inflict it on others if I don't stand to gain from doing so (DE makes me have to share to benefit from the relic system, sorry about your fissure missions!)... and even when I do, I avoid WoF if I'm in a group of low-MR players. Nobody should want to be the Simulor Mirage telling MR2 players to kill themselves for wanting a chance to shoot something (as experienced on an alt account of mine before that atrocity was rebalanced).

Edited September 25, 2017 by EDYinnit

[(PSN)Kenneth_hsh]

Suffice to say, I get annoyed by this to.... 

 

BUT stuff happens. That's the player base, some like to do solo, some are toxic, some wanna do more active challenging, some wanna do teamwork. Asking the entire game to settle because is wrong. Look at her skill. I've NEVER seen a flaming chicken(Ember) in any of my sorties. She's a farm frame generally used for that reason. Her damage fallout at higher missions is diminishing, where as my weapon builds will soon overtake her. 

Join a clan is a good suggestion. We call for groups and plan out missions and enjoy it, even make junk challenges like fist weapons only. 

 

Either way, it's the community your trying to change, cause as one meme worthy Meta ends, it trolls to the next, Luke a locust plague. Look how many went limbo after the bomb incident occurred. I'd say, learn to play with others. If anything, don't just rant. Make a dmallnpeition or a separate forum for a matchmaking to select to find player playing certain frames or styles of combat. Tanks, assault, mobile, defenders, Hybrid. Maybe a system so players could restrict matchmaking with other frames. Would limit multi ember missions and help ease the rage a bit. 

Edited September 25, 2017 by (PS4)Kenneth_hsh

[(XBOX)Sneak Attack 65]

On 9/16/2017 at 5:37 AM, CephalonNiksyn said:

Okay, can I get some ETA on when these Ember haters will stop whining about how they don't get they kills because of some Ember and how it is annoying? BTW, it is not.

These threads are boring as hell. Ember won't be changed, deal with it. If DE rework Ember, people start complaining about Equinox and her ult. If Equinox is nerfed, they'll get to Mesa and her Peacemakers. If Mesa is nerfed, then next is Titania and her Dex Pixia/Divata.

 

Please, stop.

 

Why would Titania be on the list? 

[Andaius]

12 hours ago, KaizergidorahXi said:

To be frank, any video game ability where you can just press a single key and then pretty much sit back and do nothing while everything dies around you needs to be changed. Yeah, yeah, I know it only works at low level, but maybe I just want to have a grand time playing with randoms without running the risk of an ember who demands we stay together for affinity farming and then I just end up doing nothing cause the dude has maxed range on WOF and he clears any room he walks into. Like I know why some people defend it but...Like, come on. It needs to change; it's just not fun to play with an Ember who abuses it on your team. And those people who say "Then don't play with an Ember", like...Just stop. If I wanted to spend time building a squad, I wouldn't be playing Random. I don't want to have to be relegated to backup for the Ember frying everything in a 30m radius. Simply put: II's not fun.

You are aware that maxed range WoF is something like 37.5 meters. In using this each tick only does something like 200-300 head damage. That will be reduced even further by armor or shields. I did a test to see how many ticks it took to kill a level 15 lancer with my 600 damage WoF. It took 2 ticks of 420 before getting killed. Remember, WoF targets randomly, and is limited to a max of 5 attacks per tick. It will need something on the lines of 3 hits to kill one enemy.

Anyone using ranged AoE could get them faster. Plus Ember just can't sit back and wait for them to come to her! She has to seek them out! All the others would have to do is move outside her range and kill everything before the super weak WoF build you suggested that can kill only 1 level 15 lancer a tick. If your lucky enough for the to get 3 hits on all the random targets in your 37.5 meter range. This includes stuff like camera's and turrets and so forth too btw!

[Darvo_Bek]

1 hour ago, Andaius said:

You are aware that maxed range WoF is something like 37.5 meters. In using this each tick only does something like 200-300 head damage. That will be reduced even further by armor or shields. I did a test to see how many ticks it took to kill a level 15 lancer with my 600 damage WoF. It took 2 ticks of 420 before getting killed. Remember, WoF targets randomly, and is limited to a max of 5 attacks per tick. It will need something on the lines of 3 hits to kill one enemy.

Anyone using ranged AoE could get them faster. Plus Ember just can't sit back and wait for them to come to her! She has to seek them out! All the others would have to do is move outside her range and kill everything before the super weak WoF build you suggested that can kill only 1 level 15 lancer a tick. If your lucky enough for the to get 3 hits on all the random targets in your 37.5 meter range. This includes stuff like camera's and turrets and so forth too btw!

Embers WoF is unengaging gameplay to the max. You say that her WoF can only hit 5 targets, but when actually put in practice, she kills everything around her because by the time she kills 5, its already targeted the next 5, it's not slow at all. You've been defending ember, rather horribly, on many of the forum posts that show that ember needs her 4th to be reworked, and honestly it's only a matter of time before it is reworked. If you SEE what all the previous nerfs for warframe were for, it's to do with you not being a team player, as Warframe has 4 player co-op, not 1 player and 3 carries co-op. You should help your team not simply go ahead and kill stuff by simply walking by them, You say all the others could move outside her range, but EMBER IS ON THE MOVE, they don't simply stand and wait for the mission to finish, they are dashing across the map. If you enjoy lazy gameplay good for you, but most of us here enjoy playing as a team and contributing to the mission. The points are completely off topic and I can't wait till the ember rework/nerf. 

[Andaius]

7 minutes ago, Mgamer581 said:

Embers WoF is unengaging gameplay to the max. You say that her WoF can only hit 5 targets, but when actually put in practice, she kills everything around her because by the time she kills 5, its already targeted the next 5, it's not slow at all. You've been defending ember, rather horribly, on many of the forum posts that show that ember needs her 4th to be reworked, and honestly it's only a matter of time before it is reworked. If you SEE what all the previous nerfs for warframe were for, it's to do with you not being a team player, as Warframe has 4 player co-op, not 1 player and 3 carries co-op. You should help your team not simply go ahead and kill stuff by simply walking by them, You say all the others could move outside her range, but EMBER IS ON THE MOVE, they don't simply stand and wait for the mission to finish, they are dashing across the map. If you enjoy lazy gameplay good for you, but most of us here enjoy playing as a team and contributing to the mission. The points are completely off topic and I can't wait till the ember rework/nerf. 

Lol, You can do everything Ember can do but better with Ignis, and Amprex just to name 2 weapons. Not only do they hit more targets at a time, they do more damage. You'll be waiting forever for that rework because she's be looked at twice already and they put her in this place she is now. So unless your calling for the "nerf" of all AoE weapons and punch through on automatic weapons Every warframe has the same power. Yeah the Ember is moving but so should you. Unless your just standing there waiting for them to come to you. It's NOT hard at all to out kill an Ember if you just try.

[KaizergidorahXi]

2 hours ago, Andaius said:

Lol, You can do everything Ember can do but better with Ignis, and Amprex just to name 2 weapons. Not only do they hit more targets at a time, they do more damage. You'll be waiting forever for that rework because she's be looked at twice already and they put her in this place she is now. So unless your calling for the "nerf" of all AoE weapons and punch through on automatic weapons Every warframe has the same power. Yeah the Ember is moving but so should you. Unless your just standing there waiting for them to come to you. It's NOT hard at all to out kill an Ember if you just try.

Yeah, except to get a good Ignis and Amprex, you have to work for it. I could just take Ember out of the box, slap a range mod and Intensify on her and wipe most low level missions by walking slowly.

Oh and that mission I mentioned up above? I had my Ignis, built for maximum killing power, during that mission. Didn't make a damn bit of difference, and the mission wasn't fun for anyone that way. If you need a max AOE weapon like Ignis or Amprex to have to combat a single warframes ability, that warframe needs to be changed.

[owendawgx]

For the people mentioning Ash I'd like to point out that he still has some of the highest damage of any frame (outside of technically infinitely scaling frames like Equinox), and that Ash's damage easily destroys any of the highest level content we have available to us currently, and much quicker than most weapons can take care of groups of enemies at that level (at the cost of a lot of energy). So the comparisons of Ash being the worst place Ember could go are completely unfounded. 

[Epsik-kun]

If anything, WoF needs a buff.

[Andaius]

2 hours ago, KaizergidorahXi said:

Yeah, except to get a good Ignis and Amprex, you have to work for it. I could just take Ember out of the box, slap a range mod and Intensify on her and wipe most low level missions by walking slowly.

Oh and that mission I mentioned up above? I had my Ignis, built for maximum killing power, during that mission. Didn't make a damn bit of difference, and the mission wasn't fun for anyone that way. If you need a max AOE weapon like Ignis or Amprex to have to combat a single warframes ability, that warframe needs to be changed.

IF your walking so slowly, then whats stopping anyone else with gun that range more then 20 meters to keep up and kill everything before they get close? Also you don't need then to do tons of damage, you just need them to do enough to kill a low level guy so if it does more then 500 damage your out damaging the ember!  It doesn't need changed because it's stupid to balance a power to the lowest levels! Why not argue to make level 10 lancers to have the HP and armor of level 40 lancers? It will do exactly what you guys seem to want to do!

[IceColdHawk]

20 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

Heck, if WoF removed the ability to fire guns, it could actually be pretty balanced.

Contradicting your own points, eh?

22 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

For starters, even if I'm in a mission type where I can kill everything in one shot, I still actually want to participate. There is plenty of low-level content that is relevant in late game (Lith/Meso fissures being the most prominent example). If I'm running, for example, a Lith survival fissure, I don't want to spend 40-60 minutes doing nothing at all. I'd rather spend that time oneshotting mooks than doing absolutely nothing. WoF stops me from doing that.

Using that "idea", we won't be able to shoot our guns. And? It still won't help your low level killing struggle against embers.

wait...did i just say "against"? What a weird thing to say in a coop game. And that's my opinion when it comes to people competing with others for kills in a coop game. Warframe is a grinding game, once again. And ember is the frame that easens/quickens the grind at the cost of late game effectivity. If you're of the opinion that this promotes lazy gameplay, i won't argue that, but blame it the heavy grind nature and not the players using the tools for the right job. And honestly, from own experience i can say, if i actually want to participate, i DO get kills. Enough to even outkill or at the very least keep up with kills. No matter which frame i'm competing against (unless it was prenerf limbo cataclysm or polarize but these are gone). I do feel that once people see ember, they intentionally don't bother on getting kills or are really just fighting earth to mercury levels to which i have no understanding for complaining on getting outkilled. I appreciate anything that spares me time from quick alerts. Even more so when i don't want to be that ember.

[YUNoJump]

4 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

Contradicting your own points, eh?

Using that "idea", we won't be able to shoot our guns. And? It still won't help your low level killing struggle against embers.

wait...did i just say "against"? What a weird thing to say in a coop game. And that's my opinion when it comes to people competing with others for kills in a coop game. Warframe is a grinding game, once again. And ember is the frame that easens/quickens the grind at the cost of late game effectivity. If you're of the opinion that this promotes lazy gameplay, i won't argue that, but blame it the heavy grind nature and not the players using the tools for the right job. And honestly, from own experience i can say, if i actually want to participate, i DO get kills. Enough to even outkill or at the very least keep up with kills. No matter which frame i'm competing against (unless it was prenerf limbo cataclysm or polarize but these are gone). I do feel that once people see ember, they intentionally don't bother on getting kills or are really just fighting earth to mercury levels to which i have no understanding for complaining on getting outkilled. I appreciate anything that spares me time from quick alerts. Even more so when i don't want to be that ember.

I'm not sure what you mean by "contradicting", your point was that WoF is indirect and fails to do well against damage-reducing priority targets regardless of level, my counter-point is that Ember can still use guns to take out priority targets and keep WoF at standard efficiency. If WoF didn't allow you to use guns, then it would mean that WoF actually does struggle to take out organised groups, and WoF goes from "uninteractive AoE that just nukes everything nearby while Ember" to "ability to do random damage everywhere, with the significant drawback that many enemy abilities will stop it from doing much unless you a) turn it off or b) coordinate with your team (ie a good system), to get them to pick off priority targets while WoF gets the mooks. I think it sounds better to use, without addressing the complete lack of interactivity on the part of Ember.

"against" is indeed a weird thing to say in a co-op game, but when players are denying other players the ability to properly play the game, then we are forced to describe the situation with such terms as "against". Some co-op games do actually promote friendly competition for kills, but most of those games don't actually allow players to lock down the whole mission. 

4 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

blame it the heavy grind nature and not the players using the tools for the right job.

The grind is indeed heavy, but i'd rather we fix the grind issue than just leaving bad, uninteractive abilities to the game. It's like the current issue with the meta; Status and Crit is the only way to build endgame, and CC overloading abilities is the best way to get far in high-level content, but that's because scaling is broken, and people would rather see scaling fixed than for everything to keep descending into stunlock spamming and more visual effects than the human eye can process.

4 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

And honestly, from own experience i can say, if i actually want to participate, i DO get kills.

Okay, we have the anecdotal evidence that YOU can, but I think the large number of accounts in this very thread and many more show the opposing evidence that it's hard to do for many players. You might be so good at shooting that Peacemaker is like a debuff to you, but many players don't have the skill to keep up with WoF, and they shouldn't be expected to have such skill when their competition requires literally none at all. Heck, currently WoF is an objective buff, so if an Ember has the exact same amount of skill as another player, the Ember will do better just because they have gunplay + WoF. 

4 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

I do feel that once people see ember, they intentionally don't bother on getting kills or are really just fighting earth to mercury levels to which i have no understanding for complaining on getting outkilled. I appreciate anything that spares me time from quick alerts. Even more so when i don't want to be that ember.

Well I'd say it's reasonable to give up on outkilling Ember if you've already tried and failed to outkill Embers in the past (especially at low level), but I doubt many people give up based on what they've heard from others about Ember and nothing else. In any case, you may enjoy skipping gameplay in alerts and such, but many people actually want to play the game (as referenced in many threads and such, also common sense), and low level players especially want to experience low-level/non-endgame content properly. If a MR24 guy with a perfect WoF build jumps into somewhere on Mercury for an alert that a MR3 guy just happens to be passing through for progression, then the MR3 person is going to have to lose out on all gameplay in the mission while the MR24 person uses WoF to actively ignore gameplay, because they've experienced it already. In this situation, the MR3 person isn't having fun because they can't play the game normally, and the MR24 person isn't really having fun either, because their goal is loot, and they're using abilities to actively bypass gameplay. Not a good situation.

[Andaius]

4 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "contradicting", your point was that WoF is indirect and fails to do well against damage-reducing priority targets regardless of level, my counter-point is that Ember can still use guns to take out priority targets and keep WoF at standard efficiency. If WoF didn't allow you to use guns, then it would mean that WoF actually does struggle to take out organised groups, and WoF goes from "uninteractive AoE that just nukes everything nearby while Ember" to "ability to do random damage everywhere, with the significant drawback that many enemy abilities will stop it from doing much unless you a) turn it off or b) coordinate with your team (ie a good system), to get them to pick off priority targets while WoF gets the mooks. I think it sounds better to use, without addressing the complete lack of interactivity on the part of Ember.

"against" is indeed a weird thing to say in a co-op game, but when players are denying other players the ability to properly play the game, then we are forced to describe the situation with such terms as "against". Some co-op games do actually promote friendly competition for kills, but most of those games don't actually allow players to lock down the whole mission. 

The grind is indeed heavy, but i'd rather we fix the grind issue than just leaving bad, uninteractive abilities to the game. It's like the current issue with the meta; Status and Crit is the only way to build endgame, and CC overloading abilities is the best way to get far in high-level content, but that's because scaling is broken, and people would rather see scaling fixed than for everything to keep descending into stunlock spamming and more visual effects than the human eye can process.

Okay, we have the anecdotal evidence that YOU can, but I think the large number of accounts in this very thread and many more show the opposing evidence that it's hard to do for many players. You might be so good at shooting that Peacemaker is like a debuff to you, but many players don't have the skill to keep up with WoF, and they shouldn't be expected to have such skill when their competition requires literally none at all. Heck, currently WoF is an objective buff, so if an Ember has the exact same amount of skill as another player, the Ember will do better just because they have gunplay + WoF. 

Well I'd say it's reasonable to give up on outkilling Ember if you've already tried and failed to outkill Embers in the past (especially at low level), but I doubt many people give up based on what they've heard from others about Ember and nothing else. In any case, you may enjoy skipping gameplay in alerts and such, but many people actually want to play the game (as referenced in many threads and such, also common sense), and low level players especially want to experience low-level/non-endgame content properly. If a MR24 guy with a perfect WoF build jumps into somewhere on Mercury for an alert that a MR3 guy just happens to be passing through for progression, then the MR3 person is going to have to lose out on all gameplay in the mission while the MR24 person uses WoF to actively ignore gameplay, because they've experienced it already. In this situation, the MR3 person isn't having fun because they can't play the game normally, and the MR24 person isn't really having fun either, because their goal is loot, and they're using abilities to actively bypass gameplay. Not a good situation.

But you don't "ignore gameplay" The Ember is DOing the gameplay faster and more efficiently then the guy who just see's Ember on team goes AFK. Ember's looking for that mission success screen too you know. So no gameplay is ignored! Good Embers have lots of "interactivity" They are actively running and gunning all over the place!

[YUNoJump]

12 minutes ago, Andaius said:

But you don't "ignore gameplay" The Ember is DOing the gameplay faster and more efficiently then the guy who just see's Ember on team goes AFK. Ember's looking for that mission success screen too you know. So no gameplay is ignored! Good Embers have lots of "interactivity" They are actively running and gunning all over the place!

What I mean by "ignore gameplay" is that WoF objectively lowers the amount of interaction that Ember (and her team) does. We both agree that WoF targets completely on its own and without the user's input; in fact there is no way to control WoF at all other than turning it on and off. Even if the Ember herself is actively shooting enemies while WoF is in effect, WoF's kills are done without any user input at all. It doesn't even affect the user's playstyle; there's nothing you can do to interact with WoF outside of just shooting enemies it hits (ie normal gunplay), and using it doesn't cause Ember to lose any offensive capabilities at all, other than some energy drain.

WoF's use is akin to deploying an invincible Specter that just runs through the mission autotargeting stuff; except Specters don't have the ability to shoot enemies through walls. There is no way that it can enhance gameplay other than removing some enemies without user input at all (as with my previous statements, players should be directly responsible for the vast majority of kills in an entertaining game).

I suppose the only other thing it offers is the mild enjoyment of watching fire go everywhere, which will probably last a whole 2 minutes after a player seeing WoF for the first time in their career.

[Andaius]

1 minute ago, YUNoJump said:

What I mean by "ignore gameplay" is that WoF objectively lowers the amount of interaction that Ember (and her team) does. We both agree that WoF targets completely on its own and without the user's input; in fact there is no way to control WoF at all other than turning it on and off. Even if the Ember herself is actively shooting enemies while WoF is in effect, WoF's kills are done without any user input at all. It doesn't even affect the user's playstyle; there's nothing you can do to interact with WoF outside of just shooting enemies it hits (ie normal gunplay), and using it doesn't cause Ember to lose any offensive capabilities at all, other than some energy drain.

WoF's use is akin to deploying an invincible Specter that just runs through the mission autotargeting stuff; except Specters don't have the ability to shoot enemies through walls. There is no way that it can enhance gameplay other than removing some enemies without user input at all (as with my previous statements, players should be directly responsible for the vast majority of kills in an entertaining game).

I suppose the only other thing it offers is the mild enjoyment of watching fire go everywhere, which will probably last a whole 2 minutes after a player seeing WoF for the first time in their career.

Your still off, The Ember has to get into range of the enemy, has to stay in range of the enemy, has too have energy to keep it going. Sounds like there more player input thats needed for WoF to work! Just as much as say shooting your guns, or using the abilities of any other warframe. Especially one's with AoE powers of there own. Let's take frost for example. Avalanche since it has a similar base range. 15 meters. So lets see, you have to get the enemy withing range for both abilities, only effect enemies in that range with no aiming on the player account. Ok wait WoF only hits upto 5 random targets with 400 heat damage. Avalanche does 1500 cold, reduces 40% armor, and makes dead guys explode for 400 cold! Cold works on Armor, and shields. Heat doesn't!

[YUNoJump]

25 minutes ago, Andaius said:

Your still off, The Ember has to get into range of the enemy, has to stay in range of the enemy, has too have energy to keep it going. Sounds like there more player input thats needed for WoF to work! Just as much as say shooting your guns, or using the abilities of any other warframe. Especially one's with AoE powers of there own. Let's take frost for example. Avalanche since it has a similar base range. 15 meters. So lets see, you have to get the enemy withing range for both abilities, only effect enemies in that range with no aiming on the player account. Ok wait WoF only hits upto 5 random targets with 400 heat damage. Avalanche does 1500 cold, reduces 40% armor, and makes dead guys explode for 400 cold! Cold works on Armor, and shields. Heat doesn't!

To start with, Avalanche locks you in place for a duration, you have to specifically cast it when you want it to deal a single set of damage, a single cast doesnt keep moving with you and dealing more damage, and if you just spam it nonstop as you move, it's going to cost vastly more than WoF per second and you also won't be going anywhere fast. It's nowhere near as easy to outkill players with Avalanche than it is with WoF. The only comparison it has with WoF is that it deals damage and has an effective range centred on the caster, which is the same for many, many abilities.

If you are running a mission the standard way, ie move directly to objective, then move directly the extraction, then WoF's range is made irrelevant as you run through groups of enemies that are blocking you. Normally you'd kill them then move through, with WoF you can just keep moving and they'll die if you don't feel like shooting them. There are tiles where enemies are a long distance away, but that's going to leave maybe one squad of enemies that aren't instakilled every 5-6 tiles, give or take. Not many. Yes, technically you could play WoF by not shooting and running up to guys (as before, I could get behind a WoF nerf where you aren't ALLOWED to shoot), but 90% of players just play normally and allow WoF to kill any enemies that happen to get close, usually out of LoS. If you play it normally you don't think about it.

Final note: yes, it only hits 5 targets at once, but that statistic is useless without the additional fact that its rate of fire is about 2-2.5 blasts a second per target. Effectively 10-15 blasts per second, with 5 separate things being targeted. It fires very fast when groups appear, which is most of the time in Warframe.

[Voltage]

2 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

What I mean by "ignore gameplay" is that WoF objectively lowers the amount of interaction that Ember (and her team) does. We both agree that WoF targets completely on its own and without the user's input; in fact there is no way to control WoF at all other than turning it on and off. Even if the Ember herself is actively shooting enemies while WoF is in effect, WoF's kills are done without any user input at all. It doesn't even affect the user's playstyle; there's nothing you can do to interact with WoF outside of just shooting enemies it hits (ie normal gunplay), and using it doesn't cause Ember to lose any offensive capabilities at all, other than some energy drain.

WoF's use is akin to deploying an invincible Specter that just runs through the mission autotargeting stuff; except Specters don't have the ability to shoot enemies through walls. There is no way that it can enhance gameplay other than removing some enemies without user input at all (as with my previous statements, players should be directly responsible for the vast majority of kills in an entertaining game).

I suppose the only other thing it offers is the mild enjoyment of watching fire go everywhere, which will probably last a whole 2 minutes after a player seeing WoF for the first time in their career.

World on fire only kills fast in lower tier starchart. If you bring her to sorties here WoF doesn’t kill at all unless you have a weapon to help it along. Also, Many more frames have similar functions and are better than ember. We have Equinox and Octavia. Ember is not broken op, she is actually mediocre. If you are complaining someone takes your kills in a coop game, maybe you should be solo or play something else.

Edited September 26, 2017 by --Q--Voltage

[Lukkiete]

21 hours ago, (Xbox One)Sneak Attack 65 said:

Why would Titania be on the list? 

I mean, if there's nothing else to nerf, some would definitely complain how Titania/any dmg dealing warframe, hell, even Hydroid is on that list,  is OP, very high dmg and stuff...

What I wanted to say that even DE will nerf Ember, there will also be so many things to whine and complain about. It's not like Ember can withstand solo MOT 5+ hours , so not really OP.