World on Fire, Again.

[DatDarkOne]

1 hour ago, DeckChairVonBananaCamel said:

you mean the "nuking" from her razorwing? .. the nuking that is essentially equal to someone with a powerful weapon, but tiny and flying?

something tells me people wouldn't complain all that much about an ability that requires as much effort as just shooting the enemy, and is only equal to (in most cases worse) than the top-tier guns.

I think that's the point he/she's trying to make.  There are already weapon/frame combinations that can do the same as Ember on lower levels.  Once Ember is gone, what's to stop those that complain from moving on the the next frame on the list.  A list that most frames would be on because they can nuke an area.

Nerfing/changing Ember in this regard would be a never ending nerf bat to everything because there will always be something else to take her place.  

The only reason Titania isn't really considered just yet is because she isn't played that much as other frames.  Same thing with Saryn now.

[HollowWitch]

I don't really mind it in fissures because if I'm running fissures I'm just farming and want to get them done quick. 

In other missions it is annoying, I'll give you that. Though on the subject of 'fun killer' frames (and weapons) that just nuke everything in low to mid level missions, unfortunately there are may ways to do this. It's not just Ember with WOF (she is just notorious for it because she is an easy to get frame and it one button push) so I'm not sure that DE could solve it at this stage without massively reworking everything or somehow scaling everything down based on mission level (which would piss off farmers). 

Edited September 28, 2017 by SeriouslySinister

[AperoBeltaTwo]

On 26.09.2017 at 11:28 PM, Andaius said:

Not really, It's not really any faster then just having 2 guys with normal weapons do it with guns. (WoF + Ember shots whats still standing in front of her.) I'd say maybe you could clear them just as fast because if you use punch through or AoE weapons and are good at navigation while shooting you can kill waves of enemy in a second or 2.

No personal offence intended, but I would have to assume that your ember build is complete rubbish isn't very good. Cause 160% range and 200%+ power strength ember would wipe out the whole map of low-lvl enemies faster than anyone could type "what weapons?" And if you go extra mile with even more range, there isn't a chance in the world for your teammates to see any normal goons anywhere around you at all.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 hour ago, SeriouslySinister said:

I don't really mind it in fissures because if I'm running fissures I'm just farming and want to get them done quick. 

In other missions it is annoying, I'll give you that. Though on the subject of 'fun killer' frames (and weapons) that just nuke everything in low to mid level missions, unfortunately there are may ways to do this. It's not just Ember with WOF (she is just notorious for it because she is an easy to get frame and it one button push) so I'm not sure that DE could solve it at this stage without massively reworking everything or somehow scaling everything down based on mission level (which would piss off farmers). 

The point is, it's not an ember problem. It's a mission design and scaling problem. Altho ember's ult concept is kind of bad, but it's not that powerful. It's only powerful because the general content we have in the game is extremely low-lvl.

[Andaius]

3 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

No personal offence intended, but I would have to assume that your ember build is complete rubbish isn't very good. Cause 160% range and 200%+ power strength ember would wipe out the whole map of low-lvl enemies faster than anyone could type "what weapons?" And if you go extra mile with even more range, there isn't a chance in the world for your teammates to see any normal goons anywhere around you at all.

Lol, at that power you'll run out of power in seconds. You seem to completely forget that if you want range you sacrifice power and if you want power you sacrifice efficiency and duration. Your build suggestion to get to those range and power need both blind rage, Transient Fortitude and overextended.  That would be draining something like 10 a second! Unless you can finish up a mission in a minute  at max energy you'll be out in one minute.

Edited September 29, 2017 by Andaius

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

8 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

I think that's the point he/she's trying to make.  There are already weapon/frame combinations that can do the same as Ember on lower levels.  Once Ember is gone, what's to stop those that complain from moving on the the next frame on the list.  A list that most frames would be on because they can nuke an area.

Nerfing/changing Ember in this regard would be a never ending nerf bat to everything because there will always be something else to take her place.  

The only reason Titania isn't really considered just yet is because she isn't played that much as other frames.  Same thing with Saryn now.

i think that the only complaint about titania's ult would be that it's not strong enough. i do understand the point @CephalonNiksyn is trying to make, its very similar to the ol' "if we cure all diseases we shall find that mankind's greatest nemesis is falling down" it's just that the example they used is not that good. (it would be like saying mankind's greatest nemesis would be stubbing your toe... it's not even lethal in most cases)

And the differences between Ember's ult and other ults....

• Spoiler

   

  • Ash is vulnerable for a few moments before his ult whilst he marks targets, cannot mark through walls, takes a long time to hit all the enemies, and can be killed easily just after the ability ends. (it is worth noting that pre-rework a max range ash was just as bad as a WoF ember, that's why he was changed)
  • Atlas' ult is not that good, it just essentially summons 2 melee only specters, but i have an idea that could make them much better that i will post about in the near future.
  • Banshee's ult, although further-reaching than WoF and able to hit any number of enemies:
    • deals far less damage per hit (and no bonus DoT)
    • has less type strengths and more type weaknesses
    • cannot knock-down enemies, only stagger (WoF can knock-down with the augment)
    • uses 4 times as much energy
    • renders banshee immobile and cannot be cast in the air
  • Chroma's ult is pretty terrible, you wont see it nuking anything any time soon
  • Equinox's day form ult is pretty strong, but only deal a single hit+bleed proc per enemy, severely limiting its nukability (yes i have seen it nuking low level mobs, maybe it at least needs line of sight?)
  • Excalibur's ult is very strong, but doesn't auto-target through walls and actually requires input to utilise. it also halts use of your regular weapons.
  • Frost has a powerful ult, but is one use, and uses much more energy
  • Harrow's ult deals no direct damage, and buffs the entire team.
  • Hydroid's ult is more of a CC/farming tool than it is direct damage
  • Inaros' ult is a defensive buff that A, requires health and B must be sacrificed to launch a single projectile that needs line of sight.
  • Ivara's ult is pretty strong, but is a stock standard channelled weapon, you are not going to be nuking the room you are in + all adjacent rooms with a single button press.
  • Limbo's ult is targeted, and not super powerful (damage-wise)
  • Loki's ult deals no damage
  • Mag's ult takes AGES and is once again a stationary cast
  • Mesa's ult is very powerful, hampered by the fact that it requires line of sight, and limits movement (though crafty players can activate it during a bullet-jump to role-play as an AC-130). That being said though, as mesa i have been outclassed by an ember during a corpus gas city defence mission, where the max-range ember was able to destroy all the enemies as they spawned through closed doors.
  • Mirage's ult is pretty good, however it wont follow you through the level, and is affected by line of sight.
  • Nekro's ult is just a bunch of patsies, and i dont think anyone has ever complained that it nukes everyone.
  • Nezha's ult would just be a slightly better radial javelin if it weren't for the nifty CC it provides

   

   

Im just going to stop there, because im starting to get bored

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

39 minutes ago, Andaius said:

Lol, at that power you'll run out of power in seconds. You seem to completely forget that if you want range you sacrifice power and if you want power you sacrifice efficiency and duration. Your build suggestion to get to those range and power need both blind rage, Transient Fortitude and overextended.  That would be draining something like 10 a second! Unless you can finish up a mission in a minute  at max energy you'll be out in one minute.

10 a second? nah, with the correct build its more like 3.65 per second, the only tough part is the initial power cost of 77.50 energy. but even taking that into account with a primed flow you can still have 153 seconds of WoF at 24 meters and 1196 damage per explosion before accelerant. (with accelerant you are looking at a little over 10,000 per explosion on the same build)

sorry for the double-up, i dont know how to add quotes when editing my comment

[traybong111]

2 hours ago, Andaius said:

Lol, at that power you'll run out of power in seconds. You seem to completely forget that if you want range you sacrifice power and if you want power you sacrifice efficiency and duration. Your build suggestion to get to those range and power need both blind rage, Transient Fortitude and overextended.  That would be draining something like 10 a second! Unless you can finish up a mission in a minute  at max energy you'll be out in one minute.

If you forgo any survival mod it should be possible to have exactly 160% range and 200% power strength (TF/Intensify/Power Drift) and still have max efficiency (with Fleeting Expertise and Streamline stacked, WoF still has max efficiency at 40% duration), though with Growing Power as aura we're looking at 225% PS WoF if you bring a status weapon. But honestly at 15m base range those extra 15% range won't make much of a difference (21.75m vs 24m) not to mention Ember's a frame who needs to keep moving to stay alive. 

To be fair, we're talking about multi-Forma, min-maxed Ember. I can and oftentimes rush through low-level missions with Natural Talent Reckoning spam Oberon Prime. With enough Forma pretty much any AoE ability can wipe entire rooms. 

Edited September 29, 2017 by traybong111

[Almagnus1]

18 hours ago, traybong111 said:

To be fair, we're talking about multi-Forma, min-maxed Ember. I can and oftentimes rush through low-level missions with Natural Talent Reckoning spam Oberon Prime. With enough Forma pretty much any AoE ability can wipe entire rooms. 

With that kind of build on any frame, shouldn't it be EXPECTED that they are all that powerful?

 

[traybong111]

1 hour ago, Almagnus1 said:

With that kind of build on any frame, shouldn't it be EXPECTED that they are all that powerful?

 

Yep, that's the idea. I multi-Forma most of my frames so they have the flexibility to fill any role for Sorties or Trials while also accommodating max efficiency/spam build for trash wipes at lower-level missions that I just want to get done ASAP (mostly Kuva Siphons these days.) 

I was typing a long-winded jumbled paragraph about WoF and its somewhat wonky place in the game but I'm too tired right now, will probably come back to this comment later. 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

On 29.09.2017 at 5:03 AM, Andaius said:

Lol, at that power you'll run out of power in seconds. You seem to completely forget that if you want range you sacrifice power and if you want power you sacrifice efficiency and duration. Your build suggestion to get to those range and power need both blind rage, Transient Fortitude and overextended.  That would be draining something like 10 a second! Unless you can finish up a mission in a minute  at max energy you'll be out in one minute.

That's why I assumed you don't know ember. I have max efficiency on my build.

[(PSN)RedWhiskey96]

Embers alt doesnt need to be changed especially if your complaining about her killing in low level missions low level enemies  take little effort to kill in thr first place so saying she doesn't have to do anything or very little is not a valid argument because these enemies under lvl 30 take very little effort to kill in the first place  in addition  her world on fire drops once the enemies hit 30 and eventually she won't be able to do any damage at all I see no issue with her world on fire and it should stay as is

Edited October 1, 2017 by (PS4)RedWhiskey96

[KIREEK]

I still don't know why players create convoluted strategies with certain warframes only to expect other players to stand still, wait and then see what the player is doing.

So what if you want to use harrow for headshot kills here and there, do we really need to unfold a red carpet so you can be happy?

Efficiency matters mate, either you repeat missions more often or you do effort in the few missions that you do and one way to achieve that is by using ember, it enables kills that then provide mods, endo, exp and resources, ember (with the proper gameplay) makes things easier, faster and more worthwhile, on the other hand you have players who do barely nothing, do you honestly prefer that? can you say that to a team head on?, that it might be better if the mission lasted longer and was less productive.

DE is certainly happy that you take time, that this game is grindy to the point of buying plat, but the players with more common sense and reaction skills will certainly be rewarded for the extra effort, ember was simply a choice by the player in order to be more effective in the mission and i have found myself in multiple games with other embers where my ember or even my other warframes would outperform said players.

What i mean is, the gameplay matters, there is always time to kill, the vast majority of embers playing around are average, there is no excuse (asside from being very new to gaming in general) that you can't keep up and help with the killing, all i can tell you is that with the proper effort and gameplay you will not only keep up with embers, but may even surpass them most of the time, regardless of the warframe, there are exceptions obviously like being able to outperform a banshee with soundquake on an interception mission, there are limits to what you can do and knowing them helps.

I can't be more straight forward, if you want to kill, you need to be fast, aim fast, kill fast and locate other enemies fast, if you strugle with the map and don't know where to go in certain areas then you will quickly be outclassed, i'll give you an example: (just 1, the rest is up to you)

In invasions sometimes in a tile that connects both grineer and corpus areas, you have this huge map with open sky where you need to disable a shield to progress, there is a way to progress without doing the hack, so if you find this path while the other 3 are hacking an waiting, you'll have time to kill enemies, effort is rewarded, you're making the mission faster by a fraction, but you are.

Now imagine this over the course of 10.000 missions, the effort you do in getting more kills will quickly show up, the problem is wanting to do more or searching for ways to do better, they exist, but once you become at the level some players are you'll quickly realize most players are not there yet and no, MR does not reveal these players in anyway.

[YandereWaifu]

On 9/28/2017 at 11:11 AM, DatDarkOne said:

I think that's the point he/she's trying to make.  There are already weapon/frame combinations that can do the same as Ember on lower levels.  Once Ember is gone, what's to stop those that complain from moving on the the next frame on the list.  A list that most frames would be on because they can nuke an area.

Nerfing/changing Ember in this regard would be a never ending nerf bat to everything because there will always be something else to take her place.  

The only reason Titania isn't really considered just yet is because she isn't played that much as other frames.  Same thing with Saryn now.

honestly if ember uses just cut back on the range a bit and actually gave people a change to play the game rather than a glorified running/ parkour simulator there wouldnt be so much of an issue, i mean i usually just run stretch and take it a bit slow and i get the missions done fast and i dont get complaints from my team sometimes i dont even use WOF and i just use my guns and accelerant kil  something leave some behind and move to the next area same with my equinox. also i think saryn and exquinox are a bit more noticable in higher levels, especially in hydron cant tell you how many times i went there and had to leave earlier than id have cuz i wanted to rank a frame and spore saryn or maim equinox killed everything

[(XBOX)ThrobnBloodTube]

WoF inst to powerful against higher level enemies but i would definitely enjoy a rework to make it more interactive, not just for balancing reasons but also because it'll make ember more enjoyable to play.

[Almagnus1]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)ThrobnBloodTube said:

WoF inst to powerful against higher level enemies but i would definitely enjoy a rework to make it more interactive, not just for balancing reasons but also because it'll make ember more enjoyable to play.

She's fine as is.  Just don't sit there on a low level mission and you're fine.

[(XBOX)ThrobnBloodTube]

1 hour ago, Almagnus1 said:

She's fine as is.  Just don't sit there on a low level mission and you're fine.

I agree shes fine as is but I would enjoy a slight change to make it more interactive or throw in some synergy

[Almagnus1]

22 minutes ago, (Xbox One)ThrobnBloodTube said:

I agree shes fine as is but I would enjoy a slight change to make it more interactive or throw in some synergy

Based off of past DE "changes" to warframes, they get a hold of Ember, and she's gonna end up like Mag currently is.  Status quo is just fine because the alternatives are worse.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Almagnus1

[YUNoJump]

5 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

Based off of past DE "changes" to warframes, they get a hold of Ember, and she's gonna end up like Mag currently is.  Status quo is just fine because the alternatives are worse.

What about Saryn, Excalibur, Limbo and Oberon? They're generally considered to be improved despite a few issues. We can't just refuse to attempt any sort of improvement just because it might maybe fail. In fact, WoF used to be a duration-based ability, then a weird thing which had duration but then also drained over time, and on top of that, Fire Blast got a good buff too. Ember has been doing nothing but improving over time.

[Almagnus1]

5 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

What about Saryn, Excalibur, Limbo and Oberon? They're generally considered to be improved despite a few issues. We can't just refuse to attempt any sort of improvement just because it might maybe fail. In fact, WoF used to be a duration-based ability, then a weird thing which had duration but then also drained over time, and on top of that, Fire Blast got a good buff too. Ember has been doing nothing but improving over time.

And that's why I consider Ember fine as is.

It's a great resource farming frame for the star chart, but (IMO) not THAT great for sorties because of  what Armor does to heat, and generally being a bit too squishy to sortie with  as there are generally better sortie choices (like Inaros, for example).

[YUNoJump]

Just now, Almagnus1 said:

And that's why I consider Ember fine as is.

It's a great resource farming frame for the star chart, but (IMO) not THAT great for sorties because of  what Armor does to heat, and generally being a bit too squishy to sortie with  as there are generally better sortie choices (like Inaros, for example).

This isn't just about how powerful she is though, WoF isn't the most powerful ability in the game by a long shot, but it's certainly one of the most boring to use. We could make it into an actually fun-to-use ability that is used for more than just speedrunning low-level missions. In fact, a rework could turn it into an ability that is actually viable for high level.

[Almagnus1]

33 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

This isn't just about how powerful she is though, WoF isn't the most powerful ability in the game by a long shot, but it's certainly one of the most boring to use. We could make it into an actually fun-to-use ability that is used for more than just speedrunning low-level missions. In fact, a rework could turn it into an ability that is actually viable for high level.

Fun is all about perspective.

It's useful enough as is, and quite frankly, by having it do AoE kill it makes it an excellent choice when I'm doing an exterminate mission specifically to hunt down rare loot spawns and statues in my Ember Looter build.  Changing WoF into something more "fun" by making it more active would basically break that build for me.

Additionally, when I'm in a group, CCing stuff when I'm farming out Nidus parts (or going after polymer or oxium that I happen to be short on again), WoF works just fine because I can focus on using weapons which is fun to me.

Just because you don't find it fun doesn't mean it's not fun to everyone.

[Xana_Skullsunder]

7 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

Fun is all about perspective.

It's useful enough as is, and quite frankly, by having it do AoE kill it makes it an excellent choice when I'm doing an exterminate mission specifically to hunt down rare loot spawns and statues in my Ember Looter build.  Changing WoF into something more "fun" by making it more active would basically break that build for me.

Additionally, when I'm in a group, CCing stuff when I'm farming out Nidus parts (or going after polymer or oxium that I happen to be short on again), WoF works just fine because I can focus on using weapons which is fun to me.

Just because you don't find it fun doesn't mean it's not fun to everyone.

Okay, but there's a certain point where, in the hands of other players, it rips the fun away from enough other people that it outweighs your more benign usage of it. Same thing happened with Bladestorm and Cataclysm and Polarize.

[Almagnus1]

17 minutes ago, Xana_Skullsunder said:

Okay, but there's a certain point where, in the hands of other players, it rips the fun away from enough other people that it outweighs your more benign usage of it. Same thing happened with Bladestorm and Cataclysm and Polarize.

Have you been to a Lith relic exterminate lately?

If you aren't moving FAST ENOUGH on Ember, the rest of the team will outpace you and you will do like 2% damage on the mission.

There's other modes as well that have that exact same problem, so it's not actually due to Ember, it's cause most experienced players will be able to breathe in the general direction of low level mobs, and watch them all die.

The Ignis is also another weapon that can nuke the fun factor of lowby missions... and how many threads do you see about that weapon?

[YUNoJump]

27 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

Fun is all about perspective.

It's useful enough as is, and quite frankly, by having it do AoE kill it makes it an excellent choice when I'm doing an exterminate mission specifically to hunt down rare loot spawns and statues in my Ember Looter build.  Changing WoF into something more "fun" by making it more active would basically break that build for me.

Additionally, when I'm in a group, CCing stuff when I'm farming out Nidus parts (or going after polymer or oxium that I happen to be short on again), WoF works just fine because I can focus on using weapons which is fun to me.

Just because you don't find it fun doesn't mean it's not fun to everyone.

Xana makes a good point, but the other thing is that your definition of "fun" with the ability is basically avoiding having to bother with direct gameplay. Abilities are an integral part of Warframe, you aren't supposed to just turn on an ability to kill everything while you loot. Interactivity in combat is the primary goal of the game. As for CC, there are plenty of good CC abilities that actually require interaction, or even skilled use in some cases. Again I'd argue that it is more important for the game to be interactive than efficient in combat, and in Warframe, abilities are supposed to be just as prevalent as gunplay. I'd rather the game is developed with fun abilities in mind than breaking open crates and picking up statues while stuff dies around you.

1 minute ago, Almagnus1 said:

Have you been to a Lith relic exterminate lately?

If you aren't moving FAST ENOUGH on Ember, the rest of the team will outpace you and you will do like 2% damage on the mission.

There's other modes as well that have that exact same problem, so it's not actually due to Ember, it's cause most experienced players will be able to breathe in the general direction of low level mobs, and watch them all die.

The Ignis is also another weapon that can nuke the fun factor of lowby missions... and how many threads do you see about that weapon?

Ember with WoF on moves just as fast as any other Warframe, slightly faster than average in fact. On top of that, many other damage abilities stop you from moving while you cast them. There is no reason why Ember in particular would fall behind her team while using WoF.

The Ignis fires in front of you, and doesn't hit enemies that you don't know about unless you accidentally hit them through a wall. It also has reloading, ammo and a high fire rate. It also has a lower maximum range than WoF (20 vs 37.5, WoF default is 15 without mods) WoF can hit all around you, target multiple enemies at any points in its radius, constantly fires until you use up a considerable energy pool, and targets enemies regardless of whether Ember has recognised their existence.