Why are all the PvP rooms dead

[VicRockefeller]

And why is there only 4 of them?

 

I thought this game was supposed to be popular.

[-Ryuurei-]

Because everyone spreads PvP hate, which leads to people not bothering, which leads to nobody except the truly dedicated being any good at it, which leads to those dedicated players stomping the brave souls that dare attempt to try it, which leads to them spreading more PvP hate.

In reality, PvP is quite balanced (only real experience is with friends, events and lunaro, don't quote me on normal PvP in public lobbies) if only you take some time to learn the basics and practice, though there are a few infuriating bugs and their abusers.

[Kutsus]

Warframe is extremely popular, but no one likes the pvp, its bad, unnecessary, and most of all not the reason why people get into warframe.

[CY13ERPUNK]

4 hours ago, --Q--DragonSkllzz said:

Because everyone spreads PvP hate, which leads to people not bothering, which leads to nobody except the truly dedicated being any good at it, which leads to those dedicated players stomping the brave souls that dare attempt to try it, which leads to them spreading more PvP hate.

In reality, PvP is quite balanced (only real experience is with friends, events and lunaro, don't quote me on normal PvP in public lobbies) if only you take some time to learn the basics and practice, though there are a few infuriating bugs and their abusers.

^ THIS

but also the PVP in WF is NOT well polished like the PVP in Destiny ; sadly DE cannot seem to understand why the combat in Destiny/Borderlands is just much better balanced than WF is... maybe becuz the enemies dont all just die in 1 shot? maybe becuz they move and dodge realistically? maybe they dont have stupid non-telegraphed invul or insta-gib atks? 

WF is just too frantic/hectic and the devs have pushed it more and more towards a 'horde-shooter/slasher/blaster/nuker/looter' and that does not leave them a lot of design space for anything else, i was always sad to see them lean that far and have always hoped that WF combat would play more akin to the pace of Destiny... in some ways... {WF is not all bad or inferior, but Destiny does do a lot of things better, ala strikes/raids/etc and even Destiny's weak enemy AI is better than WF's}

[ArchPhaeton]

Outside events like Quick Steel, there's always the same few people obliterating anyone who dares try pvp, be it ffa, team annihilation, ceph cap or lunaro...

Also powers and stats have a few tweaks that make them work differently from PvE, and you are not directly told of these things.

[-Temp0-]

15 hours ago, VicRockefeller said:

And why is there only 4 of them?

 

I thought this game was supposed to be popular.

Game is popular. Pvp isn't.

Quote

In reality, PvP is quite balanced

There's nothing balanced about it. It doesn't even have matchmaking lmao.

[.Zel]

16 hours ago, VicRockefeller said:

And why is there only 4 of them?

 

I thought this game was supposed to be popular.

It depends on the region, PvP is active but you have to know what time which region is active. Furthermore adding people you meet in PvP helps too as you can easily join a game via friends list. Finally, if you're interested in PvP then you can join the conclave Discord for additional support in terms of finding games as well as learning the ins and outs of the gamemode.

59 minutes ago, -Temp0- said:

There's nothing balanced about it.

And how would you know? I'm not trying to be rude but one cannot judge a game mode without having any experience in it. Can't expect a player who just started playing Warframe to know how PvE works, similarly PvE and PvP are 2 very different game modes and just because you have experience in PvE means very little in PvP, at best you'll know how to move, what frame has what ability but that's about it. 

[-Temp0-]

1 hour ago, .Zel said:

And how would you know? I'm not trying to be rude but one cannot judge a game mode without having any experience in it. 

And how would you know that either genius? First of all, you don't have to play anything to know there's no matchmaking involved which is what I'm mostly talking about, not weapons or warframes. There's no skill-based matchmaking in WF. There's no skill rating or match making rating. Nothing. That "you've played x amount of time so now we're matching you with people who did the same" isn't matchmaking and even that feature was added not so long time ago. Time spent doesn't equal profficiency or skill, in all kind of games there's always will be bad players, average players and good players even if they played for 10 hours or 10 000. No matter the game or gamemode.

Second, I've played quick steel even if played isn't quite the term as I did it only to get the sigil. 10 or whatever it was people in the game and top 2-4 of them have kd of 15/1 or 15/0 or something similar, everyone else is behind by such a huge margin that it's not even remotely funny. So you have a couple of people murdering the sht out of everyone else now tell me how it's 'balanced'. Which actually was pointed out by those who do play it frequently. In any kind of a pvp game they would have been matched against each other after a couple of such games as their mmr/sr would rise and their opponents fall down, in wf no one gives a flying f.

[Stormdragon]

20 minutes ago, -Temp0- said:

And how would you know that either genius? First of all, you don't have to play anything to know there's no matchmaking involved which is what I'm mostly talking about, not weapons or warframes

Are you serious? You can't know if there's something involved somewhere or not without playing it unless you're letting others create your opinion. There is matchmaking, it spreads players between 4 different modes (FFA, TA, CtC, Lunaro), on 2 "skill levels" (RC and non-RC) depending on the region setting for the player (NA, SA, EU, RU, OCE, Asia). Reason why finding a lobby might be a bit hard for people and why skill based matchmaking, the thing you're referring to, can't be added unless the community grows more (and I can assure you it's growing).

About your last statement, your previous post says otherwise:

The quote refers to weapon balance, and you implied to know it since you make the difference between balance and matchmaking. About that statement i can only say that a player with 0 kills and 270 deaths clearly hasn't touched conclave enough to realize how balanced is it, no insight, never tried a gun, nothing, you're just spreading misinformation there without an actual opinion other that what someone else says.

42 minutes ago, -Temp0- said:

Second, I've played quick steel even if played isn't quite the term as I did it only to get the sigil. 10 or whatever it was people in the game and top 2-4 of them have kd of 15/1 or 15/0 or something similar, everyone else is behind by such a huge margin that it's not even remotely funny.

You didn't even try. There was plenty of people who didn't even try regardlesd of every match starting with every player having a 0/0/0 score at the start. The player who won might not even be that good, yet the rest of lobby gave him an easy victory just because they wanted a sigil that most likely isn't on any of their frames but despised pvp enough to do nothing but hide in a corner or walk in circles for the duration of the match.

46 minutes ago, -Temp0- said:

So you have a couple of people murdering the sht out of everyone else now tell me how it's 'balanced'

During the events, every player had exactly the same weapons, same mobility, no powers, no passives, same ehp... the game provided exactly the same tools for everyone, how's that not balanced?

Matchmaking and balance are different things, please don't confuse them in your blindness against pvp.

[-Temp0-]

Quote

About that statement i can only say that a player with 0 kills and 270 deaths clearly hasn't touched conclave enough to realize how balanced is it, no insight, never tried a gun, nothing, you're just spreading misinformation there without an actual opinion other that what someone else says.

There were no "guns" in quick steel to begin with and as I said, it's not about warframes or weapons balance.

Quote

There was plenty of people who didn't even try

Because they despise the sht (just like archwing) pretty much everyone do - but somehow you think that it's only fair to listen to MINORITY that likes it - that's not how you make more people play it, that's not the feedback you need if you wan to make it better. I have other pvp games to play like overwatch, gigantic or destiny, unless it's reworked or reworked into another coop like misison there's nothing to "try out" in warframe. And the difference? Pvp in them is actually fun. No special rewards or incentive needed. You just play it and enjoy. In wf even dope skins and sigils don't make majority play it, it is that bad.

You all also forget that you can get a taste of what conclave is like in the dojo duels. And if people don't even want to TRY to play in the gamemode you know you have a freaking big problem. Because people's first natural desire is to try out new thing if it looks fun. Here everyone avoid it like a plague and even half of those who play it do so because of rewards, not the gamemode. Denying it's horrible won't lead you anywhere.

[MystMan]

Does it really matter at this point what the reasons are?

Conclave, Archwing and Trials are game modes that are pretty much dead and each are only played and enjoyed by a tiny fraction of the player base. They are not successful game content, let's just leave it at that.

And this coming from a guy who loves Archwing and Trials. I genuinely play them for fun, not for their rewards.
I feel I am being realistic enough to accept that a game is larger than me and that what I like will not become the norm when it is disliked by almost everybody else. Would I like it if we got more trials and more AW missions?  Yes.  But not if it means they become more abandoned content while being clear that the majority simply does not enjoy them.

I am glad they are not forcing more of this dead content upon us or expanding them. It is not worth it to please a minority if you're going to piss off the majority. And fixing them to make them "better" ? It's been years already, nothing has changed for the better. Nothing is going to change. These game modes are never going to increase in popularity and population, take what they are now at face value and enjoy them or just skip them.

[.Zel]

7 hours ago, -Temp0- said:

you can get a taste of what conclave is like in the dojo duels.

clearly you don't know that conclave balancing doesn't fully apply to dojo duels. You're lacking a lot of information on PvP and the ones you are presenting are clearly from others opinions and they are false, how i know this is because i actually play the game mode and have been for months. If you're gonna rely on information provided by other people then at least get the correct ones.

 

3 hours ago, MystMan said:

I genuinely play them for fun, not for their rewards.

Same for most who play PvP but those going for the rewards, i'm sure you know only a small number of them does it the right way and this is why Conclave politics is a bit complicated and it needs more maintenance/attention from DE.

 

3 hours ago, MystMan said:

enjoy them or just skip them.

This is the problem, they don't enjoy and the "Get everything in the game" attitude makes them not see it as skippable but mandatory, and so we get many complains and exploits.....Archwing and Raids don't have to deal with any of that negative attitude and neither do the people who play them. Most of the toxic players i've seen in game behaving rudely and acting on invalid information are the ones who come to "grind" pvp. I doubt Archwing and Raids players have to deal with that, if not anything else then read all the fuss Temp0 is causing as an example, didn't know it had matchmaking and claims it has none, says dojo duels are conclave balanced. Those were false information and when he speaks to someone who isn't experienced in PvP they end up with that false information. Experience in PvE doesn't mean anything in PvP and yet they think they know everything about PvP because of all the hours in PvE or just because they heard how it is from their friends.

Sorry for my rude words but i'm just stating facts, it is tiresome dealing with this and repeating the same thing over and over again. I really wish people would "enjoy them or just skip them.", i really do.

[Stormdragon]

9 hours ago, -Temp0- said:

There were no "guns" in quick steel to begin with

Exactly, everyone had exactly the same gear: a nikana with a modified stance + hikou. No guns, no powers, no passives, just those 2 weapons and fashionframe.

9 hours ago, -Temp0- said:

it's not about warframes or weapons balance

Exactly, it's about matchmaking instead, which has nothing to do with balance, as I said before.

9 hours ago, -Temp0- said:

Because they despise the sht (just like archwing) pretty much everyone do

They could simply skip that event and any other in the future. It's not like a sigil, badge, landing craft decoration or some skins will suddenly grant additional power in game, replace an arcane set or whatever. I don't see despising something as a valid argument since those players did it anyways.

9 hours ago, -Temp0- said:

but somehow you think that it's only fair to listen to MINORITY that likes it - that's not how you make more people play it, that's not the feedback you need if you wan to make it better

Actually, the majority that despises the conclave has so little knowkedge of it that they have no idea of what could be better for the mode and do dumb requests that fill their needs instead while the rest jumps in the bandwagon. 

9 hours ago, -Temp0- said:

You all also forget that you can get a taste of what conclave is like in the dojo duels

You're just showing your misinformation here, kiddo. Dojo duels and conclave are balanced in different ways; conclave takes place in big fighting areas, while dojo duels take place in a very small ring  there's no comparison between them, so your dojo duel experience has no value for conclave.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Stormdragon
Typos

[mac10smg--Toa_of_Green]

3 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

Actually, the majority that despises the conclave has so little knowledge of it that they have no idea of what could be better for the mode and do dumb requests that fill their needs instead while the rest jumps in the bandwagon. 

I'm sorry...but this sounds elitist. Like, I'm not even going to sugar-coat it, just sounds straight-up elitist.

People won't really be sympathetic to you or your argument if you talk to them like that.

[Stormdragon]

13 minutes ago, mac10smg-ToaOfGreen said:

I'm sorry...but this sounds elitist. Like, I'm not even going to sugar-coat it, just sounds straight-up elitist.

People won't really be sympathetic to you or your argument if you talk to them like that.

It's not about being elitist. People without an insight, experience or knowledge about something will usually request whatever they <b>think</b> is good even if they don't realize how bad it can be. Some good ideas may come and those are usually recognized, the bad ones on the other hand, will usually be shot down by someone with deeper knowledge on the matter.

For instance, if you buy a car and it's user guide reccomends to use it exclusively with 97 octane gas... would you listen to a friend who knows nothing about cars and tells you to use 93 octanes or even diesel instead? 

Or if someone proposes start creating aircrafts with an inverted wing profile to an airline, should they start mass producing them?

It's as simple as that, of course you need experience to validate your opinions and defend them, otherwise they will be sunk with ease. Without going further, I'd like to see you explain why not every single player has acces to design council without saying anything about buying the access or giving <I>valuable</i> feedback and contributions to the game.

[mac10smg--Toa_of_Green]

It had nothing to do with your content, just your wording.

I've tried PvP for a good while, decided I didn't like it, and just moved on. I literally have no stake in what is being said here. What I do pay attention to, however, is how the arguments are articulated.

It doesn't matter whether or not you were being elitist, what matters is that the way you're wording it makes you seem so. That isn't really going to help your case when you're talking to people that's had an overall 'meh' to 'bad' experience with PvP.

[venon23]

3k  hours in game   this game have PVP ....

now out off the troling  the problem is learning curve
u need too spend alot of time too get the mods 
u need too spend alot of hours too get the skills if u ever get there ...
u will meet ppl that have both the mods and the skills and gone kill u  like 0/20  
this  is the 3 main problems in PVP in this game the other problems are simple
Server lag 
warframe unbalance (moviment abilitys and animations)


alll of this leads too new players dont play and veterans have no one too play
Dead mode
and the biggest thing  this in my case i was looking for a coop game vs AI if i want PVP i go for a Arena type of game  or a Tatical FPS
 

[venon23]

On 18/09/2017 at 11:15 PM, Stormdragon said:

It's not about being elitist. People without an insight, experience or knowledge about something will usually request whatever they <b>think</b> is good even if they don't realize how bad it can be. Some good ideas may come and those are usually recognized, the bad ones on the other hand, will usually be shot down by someone with deeper knowledge on the matter.

For instance, if you buy a car and it's user guide reccomends to use it exclusively with 97 octane gas... would you listen to a friend who knows nothing about cars and tells you to use 93 octanes or even diesel instead? 

Or if someone proposes start creating aircrafts with an inverted wing profile to an airline, should they start mass producing them?

It's as simple as that, of course you need experience to validate your opinions and defend them, otherwise they will be sunk with ease. Without going further, I'd like to see you explain why not every single player has acces to design council without saying anything about buying the access or giving <I>valuable</i> feedback and contributions to the game.

yea but the problem is for u too learn u have too play it but u can cuz theres no one else see the problem

[SilverRook]

meh no idea - don't play this for pvp.

Play this because its NOT pvp focused - and its such a breath of fresh air to play cooperatively and not *against* tryhards

 

[AlphaPHENIX]

On 17.09.2017 г. at 5:27 PM, --Q--DragonSkllzz said:

Because everyone spreads PvP hate, which leads to people not bothering, which leads to nobody except the truly dedicated being any good at it, which leads to those dedicated players stomping the brave souls that dare attempt to try it, which leads to them spreading more PvP hate.

In reality, PvP is quite balanced (only real experience is with friends, events and lunaro, don't quote me on normal PvP in public lobbies) if only you take some time to learn the basics and practice, though there are a few infuriating bugs and their abusers.

Never seen a better explanation, may never will. Have an upvote.

[.Zel]

On 9/20/2017 at 3:21 PM, VeNoN said:

u need too spend alot of time too get the mods 

You need to do the same for PvE, in fact a lot less in PvP as there are less mods.

 

On 9/20/2017 at 3:21 PM, VeNoN said:

u need too spend alot of hours too get the skills if u ever get there

Good aim is good aim, doesn't matter if you're from CoD or OW or CS:GO, if you do well in any other shooter then you won't have problems being one of the top players. Vets from these games came and dominated lobbies multiple times against experienced ones and often without no mods.

 

On 9/20/2017 at 3:21 PM, VeNoN said:

warframe unbalance (moviment abilitys and animations)

Nothing unbalanced about it, perfectly fine, 1.0 used to be faster with 1.6 mob but CC 2.0 has 1.2 mobility as max. Some still prefer it to be reverted to 1.6 as the current gameplay for them feels slow.

[Stormdragon]

On 20/9/2017 at 6:21 AM, VeNoN said:

the problem is learning curve

The actual problem with the learning curve, is that it doesn't exist in pve, so many players expect conclave's difficult to be based around getting mods to increase numbers in the loadout (like 1.0 did) instead of actual improvement of mechanical skills and understanding of the game mechanics.

On 20/9/2017 at 6:21 AM, VeNoN said:

u need too spend alot of time too get the mods

Unlike in pve, there's no mandatory mods in conclave, most of them arr QoL, gimmicks to reward skill, or have a downside, so not having every single mod won't put you at an actual disadvantage.

On 20/9/2017 at 6:21 AM, VeNoN said:

u need too spend alot of hours too get the skills if u ever get there ...

Like in any other game, I wouldn't expect a player who has never played the old classic 2d Super Mario to beat the game in a few hours, let alone someone who has never played any online pvp shooter to have the skills required to dominate in games like UT, Quake, Halo, Toxikk, etc. Just like in a game with a PvE side that doesn't require skill to be doing fine (just weapons and mods with bigger numbers), you can't expect to be a top player in it's PvP environment that relies mostly on player skill.

On 20/9/2017 at 6:21 AM, VeNoN said:

u will meet ppl that have both the mods and the skills and gone kill u  like 0/20  

There are players who got a decent skill on RC and keep stomping on newbies, and other hand there are newbies leaving RC too early in their rush for rewards, which puts them against experienced players way out of their leagues. Both are an actual issue born from player mentality, however, the game should not allow any of these things to happen, so I kinda agree with this point.

On 20/9/2017 at 6:21 AM, VeNoN said:

Server lag 

It can be an issue on any online game, I won't deny that some player hosted servers are awful, but the existance of good ones that should be prioritized over the bad ones can't be denied. The rest is mostly up to each player's connection, so again, I kinda agree on this point.

On 20/9/2017 at 6:21 AM, VeNoN said:

warframe unbalance (moviment abilitys and animations)

The game is still in beta (yay!) And unbalanced gear/skills sooner or later gets balanced.

On 20/9/2017 at 6:28 AM, VeNoN said:

yea but the problem is for u too learn u have too play it but u can cuz theres no one else see the problem

If there's no one else, then there wouldn't be players discussing balance issues, giving feedback, asking for help or helping new players here on forums, on discord, and even in game. 

[-Ryuurei-]

2 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

The actual problem with the learning curve, is that it doesn't exist in pve, so many players expect conclave's difficult to be based around getting mods to increase numbers in the loadout (like 1.0 did) instead of actual improvement of mechanical skills and understanding of the game mechanics.

Unlike in pve, there's no mandatory mods in conclave, most of them arr QoL, gimmicks to reward skill, or have a downside, so not having every single mod won't put you at an actual disadvantage.

Like in any other game, I wouldn't expect a player who has never played the old classic 2d Super Mario to beat the game in a few hours, let alone someone who has never played any online pvp shooter to have the skills required to dominate in games like UT, Quake, Halo, Toxikk, etc. Just like in a game with a PvE side that doesn't require skill to be doing fine (just weapons and mods with bigger numbers), you can't expect to be a top player in it's PvP environment that relies mostly on player skill.

There are players who got a decent skill on RC and keep stomping on newbies, and other hand there are newbies leaving RC too early in their rush for rewards, which puts them against experienced players way out of their leagues. Both are an actual issue born from player mentality, however, the game should not allow any of these things to happen, so I kinda agree with this point.

It can be an issue on any online game, I won't deny that some player hosted servers are awful, but the existance of good ones that should be prioritized over the bad ones can't be denied. The rest is mostly up to each player's connection, so again, I kinda agree on this point.

The game is still in beta (yay!) And unbalanced gear/skills sooner or later gets balanced.

If there's no one else, then there wouldn't be players discussing balance issues, giving feedback, asking for help or helping new players here on forums, on discord, and even in game. 

I've never thought of the learning curve problem that way, but it IS quite true. Most of the times someone "new" tries out PvP with me and sticks around after the first match, I'll ask them if they want some pointers, the first thing I tell them always being proper movement and how to do it. You'd be amazed at how many veteran players, even those from before parkour 2.0, don't know how to move at high speed properly, simply because the game never demanded they learn, so they didn't.

On to the RC issue: does anybody even play with RC on? Back when I got into PvP nobody did at least, but who knows. The true issue with it is that there aren't enough players that keep it on, so even those that would turn it off to just get a match. If more people tried conclave out at any given time (even if they don't stick around) this might be slightly alleviated, but the rush for rewards will always be there. I'd say only let it be turned off after one rankup by choice, and automatically at the same time as now. Oh and make a separate one for lunaro with mandatory practice mode at least once.

I've made a post on this before: servers can be really nice if they work well, but there's still the problem of searching for players, getting added to an empty server and then being unable to do things like warm-up in lunaro or exploring the map in other modes, you're just forced to stare at your frame kneeling.

Conclave does indeed see balancing occasionally. For those who haven't noticed: it's in the conclave changes section of patch notes usually. They even fixed a bug as old as lunaro itself somewhat recently! (well, kinda, they fixed half of it)

Was going to say that last part myself actually, if there's nobody playing then who's stomping you? Or who are you trying to get on the same level as? Sure there ARE times that nobody is playing one specific mode in one specific region (or all, rarely), but the trick is to put yourself on waiting for players and do something else while waiting, like fashionframe, forum posting, youtube vids, etc. The reason there is nobody is because nobody likes waiting for a match.

I wonder why the variants were completely removed though, why not just keep one around even after the event is over. As shocking as it seems, a fair amount of people did enjoy them, even among the non-PvP tenno. (they just don't speak up about it unless asked)

[venon23]

11 hours ago, .Zel said:

You need to do the same for PvE, in fact a lot less in PvP as there are less mods.

 

Good aim is good aim, doesn't matter if you're from CoD or OW or CS:GO, if you do well in any other shooter then you won't have problems being one of the top players. Vets from these games came and dominated lobbies multiple times against experienced ones and often without no mods.

 

Nothing unbalanced about it, perfectly fine, 1.0 used to be faster with 1.6 mob but CC 2.0 has 1.2 mobility as max. Some still prefer it to be reverted to 1.6 as the current gameplay for them feels slow.

1 yea but u are not getting rape while doing it
2 thats part true and not true at the same time i play CS since 1.5 and i had a friend that was great player  there and 10 mins in UT was dam thats fast it urts my eyes
3 nothing unbalanced ....? dude whats balanced in this game can u tell me cuz u not talking about warframe for sure

PS: for 2 again if u want some tatical fps just play other game 

Edited September 22, 2017 by VeNoN

[.Zel]

23 hours ago, VeNoN said:

1 yea but u are not getting rape while doing it

It's PvP, can't compare actual players vs players game mode with players vs bots. PvE in any game is easy until you go to high levels and even then it comes down to CC and cannot be compared to a PvP game/game mode. Skill requirement in PvP game and PvE games are very different.

 

23 hours ago, VeNoN said:

2 thats part true and not true at the same time i play CS since 1.5 and i had a friend that was great player  there and 10 mins in UT was dam thats fast it urts my eyes

Well i guess it was just not your friend's type of game, Many people prefer UT/Quake over CS and vice versa, everyone is not the same and people have different taste but we have had players come to conclave and dominate lobbies from CS/OW/Quake before and there are still some who play both their main game and conclave. It's possible, just have to practice to adjust to the fast paced combat.

23 hours ago, VeNoN said:

3 nothing unbalanced ....? dude whats balanced in this game can u tell me cuz u not talking about warframe for sure

 

23 hours ago, VeNoN said:

PS: for 2 again if u want some tatical fps just play other game 

You tell me, not talking about PvE, in PvP aside from the 4's one shotting some frames, what exactly is unbalanced about it? Conclave is a fast paced shooter and it's serving its purpose just fine. It's not a "Tactical fps", it's not even an fps game, it's a 3rd person shooter, meant to be fast paced like UT/Quake/LawBreakers but just in 3rd person instead of 1st person with a lot more variety in character/weapons/ability.

Conclave isn't the problem, the problem is people expecting it to be something it's not, just think about it.

Edited September 23, 2017 by .Zel

[SeaUrchins]

Playing Lunaro was everything I did when it came out. Then DE started fixing it, players started goaltending and it became as fun as watching the grass grow.

It was fun at first though, there was plenty of goals, rep and struggle.

Think I missed the topic I was replying to lmao

Edited September 23, 2017 by SeaUrchins