Operators are a plot hole that keeps getting worse (Spoilers if you're still invested)

[Snowbluff]

So the first Sentient I foguth. "It's adapting to your attacks, hit it with something new."

So I try to use a warframe ability to reset it's shielding system. It fails. FACT: Warframe abilities are not void abilities. Warframes are just as maladapted to fighting sentients as any other weapons system.

So we get to War Within. Tenno can now fight sentients, using their powers to overcome their powerful defensive systems for the first time ever- Wait that can't be the case. We get the transference ability as a part of growing up (the ill conceived theme of WW), so we didn't have them before.

How did we ever matter at all during the sentient war? It's a fact Sentients aren't anymore affected by Warframe abilities than a warframe's entirely ordinary guns and swords.

Not even my Void (riven) modified weapons are more effective.

Then we have Eidolons which are entirely indestructible outside of operator abilities. I guess the Eidolons single-handedly destroyed the orokin. *shrugs*

 

[Horonelius]

The War Within deals with the operator remembering and coming to terms with the **** in their past. Like when they got their powers, the **** that happened after they got their powers, and **** they learned they could do with their powers.

Like using transference on their own.

Edited September 17, 2017 by Horonelius

[Snowbluff]

Yeah, a new thing they could do. My operators was weak and feeble and had no ability to combat enemies before then. Ergo, he didn't have these powers ever before.

[Shinobu_Scorpion]

1 minute ago, Snowbluff said:

Yeah, a new thing they could do. My operators was weak and feeble and had no ability to combat enemies before then. Ergo, he didn't have these powers ever before.

Or, and hear me out, it's because we couldn't remember. We didn't know we could do these things before it was revealed to us. 

can't remember =/= never could

[Snowbluff]

Just now, Shinobu_Scorpion said:

Or, and hear me out, it's because we couldn't remember. We didn't know we could do these things before it was revealed to us. 

can't remember =/= never could

BUt why couldn't we remember? Was the stress of void jump incident too much ? Then we were in a coma during the sentient, and didn't have access to our operator powers. AFACT, Marguilis was killed early in the warframe project anyway, and she put us in the Second Dream. It's a plot hole. 

 

Also if we're arguing that amnesia is the plot to warframe now, we should just run day time soaps over the cut scenes from now on.

[Xardis]

15 minutes ago, Snowbluff said:

How did we ever matter at all during the sentient war? It's a fact Sentients aren't anymore affected by Warframe abilities than a warframe's entirely ordinary guns and swords.

Orokin had lots of advanced tech, like drones. I suspect that their entire army was automated. And Sentients are digital being. My theory (and headcanon) is that they taken over the Orokin weapons. Thus Orokin had to use something not digital based. Normal soldiers were too weak but frames were much stronger. You dont need to use your operator to kill sentients. I think that the war was much harder than now.

Thats not canon but its very probable explanation to your observation.

Edited September 17, 2017 by Xardis

[Shinobu_Scorpion]

Just now, Snowbluff said:

BUt why couldn't we remember? Was the stress of void jump incident too much ? Then we were in a coma during the sentient, and didn't have access to our operator powers. AFACT, Marguilis was killed early in the warframe project anyway, and she put us in the Second Dream. It's a plot hole. 

 

Also if we're arguing that amnesia is the plot to warframe now, we should just run day time soaps over the cut scenes from now on.

We were put into cryosleep for thousands of years. You don't come out of that unscathed mentally. Our memory of the past was lost.

[AtoKitsune]

11 minutes ago, Snowbluff said:

So the first Sentient I foguth. "It's adapting to your attacks, hit it with something new."

So I try to use a warframe ability to reset it's shielding system. It fails. FACT: Warframe abilities are not void abilities. Warframes are just as maladapted to fighting sentients as any other weapons system.

So we get to War Within. Tenno can now fight sentients, using their powers to overcome their powerful defensive systems for the first time ever- Wait that can't be the case. We get the transference ability as a part of growing up (the ill conceived theme of WW), so we didn't have them before.

How did we ever matter at all during the sentient war? It's a fact Sentients aren't anymore affected by Warframe abilities than a warframe's entirely ordinary guns and swords.

Not even my Void (riven) modified weapons are more effective.

Then we have Eidolons which are entirely indestructible outside of operator abilities. I guess the Eidolons single-handedly destroyed the orokin. *shrugs*

 

Except Excalibur, who trashes Sentients through their immunity. The codex for Excalibur Prime says he was the first, which insinuates his specific job was to exterminate the Sentients. All the other Primes with their trailers allude specific jobs to them, such as Saryn cleaning Earth of Infested(Definitely not a lot of Infested there anymore), and Vauban Prime is a wrangler and spy to the Corpus, which the Orokin are suspicious of. So, they aren't really a plot hole. They're more of a plaster on a plot hole.

[WhiteMarker]

13 minutes ago, Snowbluff said:

How did we ever matter at all during the sentient war? It's a fact Sentients aren't anymore affected by Warframe abilities than a warframe's entirely ordinary guns and swords.

Maybe the Sentients we fight today aren't the only Sentients that existed during the war...
Maybe there were Sentients effected by our powers?

And maybe there are other reasons why Warframe were effective against Sentients?
Maybe Sentients can corrupt the mind of "humans". And because the Warframes don't really have a mind of their own, they could not get corrupted.
Maybe Warframes were more durable than casual soldiers in the old war?

There is no plot hole.
You just want to have a plot hole. You make things up.
And the same way you can also make up reasons why this all works out...

[Snowbluff]

Just now, Xardis said:

Orokin had lots of advanced tech, like drones. I suspect that their entire army was automated. And Sentients are digital being. My theory (and headcanon) is that they taken over the Orokin weapons. Thus Orokin had to use something not digital based. Normal soldiers were too weak but frames were much stronger. You dont need to use your operator to kill sentients. I think that the war was much harder than now.

An interesting idea. However, the transference was crackable in Second Dream. Maybe the sentients just aren't as familiar or the old trans tech was voidy enough to keep them away.

[Snowbluff]

Just now, WhiteMarker said:

Maybe the Sentients we fight today aren't the only Sentients that existed during the war...
Maybe there were Sentients effected by our powers?

And maybe there are other reasons why Warframe were effective against Sentients?
Maybe Sentients can corrupt the mind of "humans". And because the Warframes don't really have a mind of their own, they could not get corrupted.
Maybe Warframes were more durable than casual soldiers in the old war?

There is no plot hole.
You just want to have a plot hole. You make things up.
And the same way you can also make up reasons why this all works out...

Yeah, and the wind is the epileptic trees having seizures.

[WhiteMarker]

1 minute ago, Snowbluff said:

Yeah, and the wind is the epileptic trees having seizures.

You want to tell me more about all the things you make up?
Great. Give it a shot.

[Snowbluff]

2 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

You want to tell me more about all the things you make up?
Great. Give it a shot.

Your post is entirely made up. My OP was empirical facts about the gameplay. Eat crow.

 

[Snowbluff]

6 minutes ago, AtoKitsune said:

Except Excalibur, who trashes Sentients through their immunity. The codex for Excalibur Prime says he was the first, which insinuates his specific job was to exterminate the Sentients. All the other Primes with their trailers allude specific jobs to them, such as Saryn cleaning Earth of Infested(Definitely not a lot of Infested there anymore), and Vauban Prime is a wrangler and spy to the Corpus, which the Orokin are suspicious of. So, they aren't really a plot hole. They're more of a plaster on a plot hole.

This just makes me scratch my head. Yes, in the lore they're supposed to be able to do these things. However, that is not the case at all in game.

In short the operators being added to the game and forcing mechnics onto them that don't make sense hurts both the gameplay and the lore.

[Xardis]

10 minutes ago, Snowbluff said:

The transference was crackable in Second Dream.

I dont recall that. Could you expand on that? As I remember when our warframe walked to the room, the transference was halted. There were no signs that Sentients had something to do with it halting. It was either Stalker that opened to transference pod or it it was automaticly opened by the sensor grid detecting Stalker and/or our Warframe.

Also, Sentients had a lot of time to examine the data gathered during the war. They might have improved drasticly to be more resistant in general to weapons. They cant adapt to the void damage bacause of the inbuilt weakness but they can improve on every other account, thats the whole point to them.

The first time around they were totaly unprepared since they had no hostile contact with Orokin before they returned. Now they have all the data from the war + time since then to optimize.

Edited September 17, 2017 by Xardis

[AtoKitsune]

Just now, Snowbluff said:

This just makes me scratch my head. Yes, in the lore they're supposed to be able to do these things. However, that is not the case at all in game.

In short the operators being added to the game and forcing mechnics onto them that don't make sense hurts both the gameplay and the lore.

What do you mean? Excalibur is amazing against Sentients, Saryn is amazing against Infested(and everything else), and Vauban is actually pretty good at wrangling dudes.

[Snowbluff]

1 minute ago, Xardis said:

I dont recall that. Could you expand on that? As I remember when our warframe walked to the room, the transference was halted. There were no signs that Sentients had something to do with it halting. It was either Stalker that opened to transference pod or it it was automaticly opened by the sensor grid detecting Stalker and/or our Warframe.

Also, Sentients had a lot of time to examine the data gathered during the war. They might have improved drasticly to be more resistant in general to weapons. They cant adapt to the void damage bacause of the inbuilt weakness but they can improve on every other account, thats the whole point to them.

The transference was jammed at the Grineer Fortress. Then the queen was able to use it to hijack the operator's body through it. This leads me to believe that the tech used in the chairs and pods are vulnerable to exploitation.

I agree that sentients are weak to void energy. However, I contesting that warframes are anymore effective, since how they're presented in the gameplay leads me to believe that their powers are no longer void energy. It's like firing a gun; you're converting chemical energy into kinetic energy.

[Snowbluff]

3 minutes ago, AtoKitsune said:

What do you mean? Excalibur is amazing against Sentients, Saryn is amazing against Infested(and everything else), and Vauban is actually pretty good at wrangling dudes.

Does his ability ignore their resistance? Because as far as I can tell no warframe ability cancels the resistance effect sentients have.
Also
" Similar to their damage adaptation, they are also capable of adapting to debuff-based Warframe abilities such as Nova's Molecular Prime, with each subsequent uses reducing their duration linearly by 33%, down to 5%. "
Is this true? This is from the wiki.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

starlordd made a good point 

heres the video he did on the tenno section

 

[AtoKitsune]

Just now, Snowbluff said:

Does his ability ignore their resistance? Because as far as I can tell no warframe ability cancels the resistance effect sentients have.
Also
" Similar to their damage adaptation, they are also capable of adapting to debuff-based Warframe abilities such as Nova's Molecular Prime, with each subsequent uses reducing their duration linearly by 33%, down to 5%. "
Is this true? This is from the wiki.

It never directly states in the lore that Sentients didn't adapt to Warframe damage. It only states that Excalibur was the first, which implies he fights Sentients. And he kills them really, really fast. He's easily the best option for fighting Sentients in the game, which lines up pretty well to him being the response to the adapting prowess of the Sentients. My Excalibur kills a squad of eight Sentients in five seconds. This goes to reason that the Orokin would deploy Excalibur Warframes to fight Sentients.

[CerebrateJoe]

A bit salty, but some valid points here.

23 minutes ago, Snowbluff said:

So the first Sentient I foguth. "It's adapting to your attacks, hit it with something new."

So I try to use a warframe ability to reset it's shielding system. It fails. FACT: Warframe abilities are not void abilities. Warframes are just as maladapted to fighting sentients as any other weapons system.

This is interesting.  I've noticed that some powers, like Excalibur's Exalted Blade seem to completely bypass sentient defences, while others don't.  The first time I fought them I "knew" to use warframe abilities based on the lore, and that proved completely ineffective for straight damage.  Some of them, like Mag's Magnetize, are amazing though.  I do agree that warframe powers should bypass Sentient defences.  But the other option is, look at how much tougher a warframe is than a corpus moa.  I'd put a squad of Tenno against a sentient before I put moas against them.

33 minutes ago, Snowbluff said:

Then we have Eidolons which are entirely indestructible outside of operator abilities. I guess the Eidolons single-handedly destroyed the orokin. *shrugs*

This . . . is actually a really good point, and I don't have a rebuttal.  I can only assume that the Eidolons were very rare, and it took epic firepower to down them.  The kind that no Tenno could carry, artillery and warships and such.  I'm going to say that the Eidolons, being damaged, are now vulnerable.  That this kind of attack never could have happened before.

[13QZXXTTX]

@Snowbluff

Just keep in mind, WarFrame has not finished Developments.

But hey at least those who are interested in the Operator can learn more as Contents is revealed.

 

Leaving out many Speculations as NOT Official Lore, there are too many things that it not known, and if you did known everything in WarFrame, you would not care either.
 

Blah Blah Blah. Have Fun figuring it out for yourself, if you so choose

 

@(Xbox One)EternalDrk Mako

StallordD's Content. Good Stuff, GG.

 

3 hours ago, CerebrateJoe said:

This . . . is actually a really good point, and I don't have a rebuttal.  I can only assume that the Eidolons were very rare, and it took epic firepower to down them.  The kind that no Tenno could carry, artillery and warships and such.  I'm going to say that the Eidolons, being damaged, are now vulnerable.  That this kind of attack never could have happened before.

Look forward to read about the EIDOLON's Lore!  GI ANTs.

[kasalaba]

21 minutes ago, Snowbluff said:

BUt why couldn't we remember? Was the stress of void jump incident too much ? Then we were in a coma during the sentient, and didn't have access to our operator powers. AFACT, Marguilis was killed early in the warframe project anyway, and she put us in the Second Dream. It's a plot hole. 

 

Also if we're arguing that amnesia is the plot to warframe now, we should just run day time soaps over the cut scenes from now on.

In the war within quest it literally says that Margulis more or less made us forget and locked our past away to strip us from both the pain and the dangerous powers. There are lots of unknowns in our past lore that could explain pretty much anything.

Don't forget that we made Tenno schools in the past, not warframe but Tenno. So we did have some kind of culture of our own, but because of the lack of info regarding that time period anything is possible.

[Xardis]

3 minutes ago, Snowbluff said:

The transference was jammed at the Grineer Fortress. Then the queen was able to use it to hijack the operator's body through it. This leads me to believe that the tech used in the chairs and pods are vulnerable to exploitation.

You mean that one.

Yes, but we still dont know how exacly transference works. If its based on the void energy (and I strongly suspect it is since you channel it to the Warframes from the Operators) that would be some kind of protection to Sentients. Yes, the tech is vulnrable to exploitation but I dont think its as grave situation as it seams. When Operators couldnt move from the pod it would be very easy for Sentients to find the systems of the pods, but they didnt in the old war. Only much later in the 2nd Dream.

Now transference seams to be much less tech based and more of an ability of the Operator. That still is not counteracting what the Queen did. Nor do I think it should. They know much more about it then us.

14 minutes ago, Snowbluff said:

I agree that sentients are weak to void energy. However, I contesting that warframes are anymore effective, since how they're presented in the gameplay leads me to believe that their powers are no longer void energy. It's like firing a gun; you're converting chemical energy into kinetic energy.

I dont think that Warframe powers were void energy based. I see Warframes as converters of the void energy, to fire for example as Nezha and Ember do.

[Koldraxon-732]

The coloured numbers were added to help connect initial statements to responses.

28 minutes ago, Snowbluff said:

1 So the first Sentient I foguth. "It's adapting to your attacks, hit it with something new."

So I try to use a warframe ability to reset it's shielding system. It fails. FACT: Warframe abilities are not void abilities. Warframes are just as maladapted to fighting sentients as any other weapons system.

2 So we get to War Within. Tenno can now fight sentients, using their powers to overcome their powerful defensive systems for the first time ever- Wait that can't be the case. We get the transference ability as a part of growing up (the ill conceived theme of WW), so we didn't have them before.

3 How did we ever matter at all during the sentient war? It's a fact Sentients aren't anymore affected by Warframe abilities than a warframe's entirely ordinary guns and swords.

4 Not even my Void (riven) modified weapons are more effective.

5 Then we have Eidolons which are entirely indestructible outside of operator abilities. I guess the Eidolons single-handedly destroyed the orokin. *shrugs*

 

1:

Spoiler

Sentients physically adapt to damage, meaning weapons will eventually become unable to deal extreme amounts of damage; the common solution is to blind them, and come armed with different elements or weapons that do only one kind of damage to compensate. 
Warframe powers are 'constrained' Void powers; not all of them will work on Sentient Fighters because those powers were either not intended to be used on Sentients, or they were intended for other Sentient attack forms.

2:

Spoiler

Tenno, when they initially awaken in the Second Dream, can use an unrestrained Void Beam. In the War Within, due to not having the power-throne and still recovering, even now, from our long cryo-stasis, our power is limited. This may also be, perhaps, due to us having some of our energy in the Warframe as to make it serve as our respawn point in missions (prevents actual Tenno death, but this is part-theory and is Void Logic; Void Logic allows Orokin Towers to use Impossible Space to be TARDIS-sized (bigger inside, smaller outside) ).
Also, the Tenno didn't 'grow up'; they merely got out of bed and are still tired from the extreme overdose of sleep, or the lack of it due to Transference. I expected more when I heard of the 'Warrior mode' - a more refined Tenno physique, one fit to actually wear a Warframe if it could be worn in that manner, but alas it was not.

3:

Spoiler

The Orokin were losing because they used a military 100% comprised of unhinged Prime Proxies. So they looked to the Void and gave us armour. We won because we didn't rely on Orokin-era aimbots, and other bots, that Orokin war machines used to use.

4:

Spoiler

Rivens are augmented mods unveiled by a unique Cephalon. They have no link to the Void and should be considered as a pile of mods that somehow work as one.

 5:

Spoiler

 

If I am correct, these are known as Teralysts; siege machines Eidolon was supposed to deploy, but it crashed and got blown to bits before it could commence its siege sequence. Also, it was stated that the Tenno's (soon-to-be-reworked and enhanced) powers would merely make it vulnerable to normal attacks. Tenno cannot fight and kill anything beyond a Butcher or normal Lancer (of level 5 or lower) as of this point (pre Plains), let alone use their Void beam to disrupt Sentient Adaptation or disrupt a Kuva Guardian's grip on their Kesheg. 

The Orokin survived by resorting to old, mostly-manual technologies - like bullets, Technocyte/Docile Infestation, and other abstract technologies such as manipulation of the Void.

Futhermore, Transference is strictly a Void thing, to disrupt it, you'd need to wake up the user, which is why your Warframe collapsed in the Second Dream. In War Within, it was the Elder Queen interfacing with your Transference connection due to her Orokin blood and heritage, causing a bizzare, lucid mindscape which also connected Teshin to the instance. It was like a simulation of an Annihilation Conclave match, but your mind was hosting it.