Crit chance in Sniper rifles (voting)

[cazadordoblekatana]

Do you think snipers should be able to reach at least 100% crit chance with only point strike? PLease vote yes or no:https://strawpoll.com/rwpd7syc

Snipers like = vectis prime, vulkar wraith, rubico and lanka.

I don't think ALL snipers should get to a 100%.

 

Edited September 28, 2017 by cazadordoblekatana

[cazadordoblekatana]

Please reply so this topic can keep up with the others, and get more people to participate.

Edited September 28, 2017 by cazadordoblekatana

[Koldraxon-732]

Just to confirm, I've voted yes.

All the crit mods you can get (maxed Point Strike and Critical Delay), before Argon Scope (from Acolytes only) and Rivens, should easily get you over the 100% crit chance.

On the side, I've got three other things that I'd like snipers to be able to do:

Spoiler

 

1: It would be nice if snipers that had smaller clips had longer combo counter duration (if the target dies instantly and nobody is immediately shootable, or the target takes many shots to down), for example, Vectis series has about 12 seconds, Vectis Prime has 8, any sniper with about 4 shots a clip has 5, and anything further is 3 or 2 seconds. This would allow people to choose the sniper that fits their fighting style. This, preferably, would also applies a damage modifier of about 10 times (meaning Vectis and its Prime should oneshot infantry and anything with a face outside of Conclave and Sorties with Ancient Healers and armor boosts). This modifier however will only apply half the output bonus damage on body shots, making headshots something worth aiming for, literally.

2: Sniper combo counter has an initial stack that refreshes on successfully lining up sights with the enemy's face or equivalent weakpoint, but this comes with a new drawback. All snipers will now get an 'aim down sights' setting like all other mid range semi-auto primaries (i.e: Sybaris, Tiberon, Burston), and alt-fire will enable zoom level 0 to 3. This aim setting, upon hitting enemies, will not provide the benefits of aiming through the scope.

3: Sniper crit chance and damage could also be the modifier instead of pure damage boost.

Bonus: Sniping the weapon held by an enemy should have a chance to jam their weapon (self-damage, results in reload) or disarming them (impact damage causes weapon to fly into enemy, knocking them over). This won't work on Sentient Fighters or other enemies with weapons that are actual parts of them.

 

 

[kgabor]

I don't think voting changes much, DE seems to be focused on the forums and they don't trust external sites anyways as seen in Wf Marketplace-s case (though that might be just the idea of a marketplace and it bringing down market prices)but yes, ofc. sniper rifles need a 100%(+) crit chance either with Point Strike or by implementing its prime variant. (or preferably add sniper rifles their own base damage-crit mods and their primed variants)

[tarfeef101]

No. At least not as long as rivens exist with the dispositions they're currently at. Otherwise they cannibalize the space of bows entirely.

[cazadordoblekatana]

Thanks for the votes.

Right now, ''yes'' is winning by 30 votes.

[NovusKnight]

5 hours ago, cazadordoblekatana said:

 

Snipers like = vectis prime, vulkar wraith, rubico and lanka.

I don't think ALL snipers should get to a 100%.

 

i disagree.

firstly it is already possible to hit 100% crit with everything except vulkar series.

it simply demands hard builds. A mix of point strike, argon scope and critical delay give you just above 100% crit on anything with 25% crit. 

it sounds a lot like you just decided "lmfao I like x y and z snipers so those get a buff, F*** the snipetron". Especially since vulkars are the fast fire status + damage snipers. wouldn't be fair to get full crit.

the only thing snipers need right now is QoL useability, with most of that being fixed in the reballance on PoE, only reloads still are too.slow on half of them, especially the rubico which is a sniper version of pre buff pyrana. High damage super crit fast weapon with tiny amazing and ridiculous reload.

 

I vote against.

[cazadordoblekatana]

Well, 34 people disgree with what you said. 

And, i mean, snipers have low magazine capacity, low firerate, are a pain to reload, and have no solid status.

They literally have no reliable stats, except for pure damage (and a good player know that's not going to do the job at high levels), ¿so what's the problem in giving them something worthwhile, like good chit chance?

*I remind you that status is also stronger that crit, so you can't say it would be OP*

[NovusKnight]

what are 34 people exactly, in the grand scene of things? I expressed my opinion and explained why. My reasons are based on personal resources and points of view which obviously are different from them, making that statement pretty pointless.

no reliable stats? People expect snipers to be one hit wonders right out of the box. Like any weapon they need forma and good modding to be used in end game (which is only 1% of the content anyway). People ALSO use snipers a bit under the wrong kindest. A single sniper can make a huge difference to a team. Bring one to hieracon and snipe ancients, the horses suddenly lose all buffs. Almost all snipers (minus vulkar) can reliably one-two head shot kill almost anything except bullS#&$ like bombards at high levels, and that's only due to very poor armor scaling, not weapon flaws. Pure damage is not even something they have, almost all shotguns outclass them several times over in damage per shot. They are very consistent for headshots, and crit headshots synergize really well, then you add scope bonus and multipliers and elementals, etc, and you get the power to instakill almost anything. Snipers never had bad main stats, only horrible QoL and comfort in their use, to the point that in the end a latron wraith is better than them at semiauto sniping.

and status being better than crit is a myth, so is crit being better than status. They are good at different things entirely. Their combination, however, combined with high base damage, can be devastating. don't believe me? My Latron wraith procs viral while keeping red crits attainable. That's simultaneously reducing hp by 50% while ALSO dealing well above 8x damage (headshots included) sometimes 16x with red crits. And the Latron has way less damage than snipers. You following my point? The prisma grakata has very high crit and status, and even with $&*&*#(%& low damage it melts everything in the crosshair. My friend, 100% crit on a vulkar wraith would just be BROKEN.

ultimately buffing crits would solve nothing with snipers and their problems at the moment. That's why i vote no.

[NovusKnight]

my previous post has tons of typos - my apologies, im on phone.

[cazadordoblekatana]

Men, you are dreaming.

Why numbers matter? Because in those numbers you can find arguments against your opinion, and, if you think that your *argument* is stronger that the arguments of 34 people, it's not, at least not until now.

I have a Rubico, 6 formas, know very well it's damage output is nothing compared to many other rifles.

A sniper makes a good diference? No, not at all, ancients can be killed easilly with any kind of weapon, the range that snipers give is not such an advantage.

Also, in you example, you said Hieracon, just one single level, and only one faction: infested (the no-armor one). But, against grinner (for example), if your hit is not a crit, the damage will be almost negligible (in high levels).

Why high levels matter? that's common sense, it's the way to know if a weapon is good or not.

You probably know that automatic rifles, bows, shotguns, mele, etc. are just better weapons overall, it's up to you if you decide to accept it.

 

Edited September 28, 2017 by cazadordoblekatana

[-N7-Leonhart]

As a long time sniper user, I would say that I am not sure. Critical chance is effective as a headshot multiplier booster, but other than that, the fact that a weapon MUST get over 100% crit chance to be effective leaves a bad taste in my mouth. In that case, those should be called something else, not "Critical Hits". Real critical hits are not certain for every shot. 

I would be happy instead if we got a higher headshot multiplier for the snipers alone, and the critical chance left as is.

[helghastgunner]

1 hour ago, -N7-Leonhart said:

As a long time sniper user, I would say that I am not sure. Critical chance is effective as a headshot multiplier booster, but other than that, the fact that a weapon MUST get over 100% crit chance to be effective leaves a bad taste in my mouth. In that case, those should be called something else, not "Critical Hits". Real critical hits are not certain for every shot. 

I would be happy instead if we got a higher headshot multiplier for the snipers alone, and the critical chance left as is.

Doesn't really need to have 40% base but at least 30%(and maybe 35% for unique variants)

Would your higher headshot multiplier work for other weak spots(take a Bursa's terminal on it's back as an example)?

[helghastgunner]

9 hours ago, tarfeef101 said:

No. At least not as long as rivens exist with the dispositions they're currently at. Otherwise they cannibalize the space of bows entirely.

Rivens can always be adjusted you know, and if they prove to be overtaking bows, a simple crit mult buff can be done.

 

[helghastgunner]

4 hours ago, NovusKnight said:

i disagree.

firstly it is already possible to hit 100% crit with everything except vulkar series.

it simply demands hard builds. A mix of point strike, argon scope and critical delay give you just above 100% crit on anything with 25% crit. 

it sounds a lot like you just decided "lmfao I like x y and z snipers so those get a buff, F*** the snipetron". Especially since vulkars are the fast fire status + damage snipers. wouldn't be fair to get full crit.

the only thing snipers need right now is QoL useability, with most of that being fixed in the reballance on PoE, only reloads still are too.slow on half of them, especially the rubico which is a sniper version of pre buff pyrana. High damage super crit fast weapon with tiny amazing and ridiculous reload.

 

I vote against.

Critical delay is a terrible mod

Argon scope is not available outside trading.

No one is using 3 mods to get the crit chance to 100% 

[tarfeef101]

58 minutes ago, helghastgunner said:

Rivens can always be adjusted you know, and if they prove to be overtaking bows, a simple crit mult buff can be done.

 

Then you just buffed 2 things that are already balanced, making them more powerful than everything else... Which would make this an exercise in futility.

[Cortanis]

Crit is pretty much all they've got going for them. They NEED that crit chance. Crit rivens shouldn't be mandatory mods for them.

[-CM-NineFingers]

Voted no. That would negate the best point about bows.

[helghastgunner]

13 hours ago, tarfeef101 said:

Then you just buffed 2 things that are already balanced, making them more powerful than everything else... Which would make this an exercise in futility.

They wouldn't be as powerful as say Tigris or akstilleto, as they'll still have to deal with damage reduction from armor.

[cazadordoblekatana]

Many people seem to forget about armor xd

[tarfeef101]

1 hour ago, helghastgunner said:

They wouldn't be as powerful as say Tigris or akstilleto, as they'll still have to deal with damage reduction from armor.

Not if you run in a squad of CPs, and most people dealing with actual high level enemies do. And if we consider your argument, then all non-status focused weapons need massive buffs. Which is clearly crazy

[helghastgunner]

3 hours ago, tarfeef101 said:

Not if you run in a squad of CPs, and most people dealing with actual high level enemies do. And if we consider your argument, then all non-status focused weapons need massive buffs. Which is clearly crazy

How many do that, and the "actual high levels" is a mute point when the highest levels that can be  fought from the start of a mission is sortie 3 units.

Also your missing the point, you said they'd (snipers) be out of balance(they won't), they'd finally be consistent in the damage they deal.

[tarfeef101]

13 hours ago, helghastgunner said:

How many do that, and the "actual high levels" is a mute point when the highest levels that can be  fought from the start of a mission is sortie 3 units.

Also your missing the point, you said they'd (snipers) be out of balance(they won't), they'd finally be consistent in the damage they deal.

Well there's no point talking about balance on low levels, cause my mk1 braton can handle even sortie levels... You have to consider the high level content when discussing these things. Anything you bother putting mods on will handle lower levels...

 

And there's a difference between balance and consistency. Snipers are less consistent than bows, but fire faster, need less time to aim since they don't have slow projectiles, and have larger magazines (except the vectis). The offset/tradeoff is better handling and fire rate to compensate for the less consistent crits.

[Azamagon]

To the people thinking that bows "niche" is that they have guaranteed crits, please look at this quote:

On 2017-09-25 at 3:48 PM, Azamagon said:

*cracks knuckles*

Let's look at this properly

Bows' advantages, when compared to Sniper Rifles:

• Silent
• Reliable critical hits (massively important for HvT-focused weaponry)
• Body ragdoll (can kill multiple enemies in a line)
• Innate punchthrough on fully charged shots
• Quick reload (Vectis series is comparably good though)
• No scope, thus also low zoom and no visual obstruction, well suited for most combat ranges of Warframe
• No aiming sway
• No reduced hipfire accuracy
• While they have chargetimes, they are fast, and benefit doubly from RoF mods

Bows' disadvantages, when compared to Sniper Rifles:

• Arcing projectiles
• Have to reload between each shot
• No "combo" damage
• No "scope" bonus
• No zoom, thus ill suited for long range combat
• Need to charge shots for optimal performance (even if the chargetimes are generally quick)

Sniper Rifles' advantages, when compared to Bows:

• Hitscan (exception for Lanka, but it's plenty fast anyway)
• Have multiple shots available before requiring a reload (Base Vectis as an exception)
• Can build up higher damage via their "combo" mechanic (although the window for this is VERY brief, and is crippled by very lengthy reloads)
• Have some bonuses for aiming (only really noticeable effects on Lanka and Rubico though)
• Scopes allow for longrange shots at variable distances (though only a small advantage, and is crippled by aimsway anyway)
• No chargetimes (Lanka as exception)

Sniper Rifles' disadvantages, when compared to Bows:

• Alarming sound
• Unreliable critical hits (This means you can end up requiring ~5 bullets to kill ONE HvT target, instead of just 1 bullet, thus occassionally removing their magazine advantage...)
• No body ragdoll
• Innate punchthrough only on 2 weapon series (Snipetron and Lanka)
• Long reloads (Vectis and arguably Lanka as exceptions, however, the Vectis weapons have tiny magazine sizes and the Lanka has to charge its shots)
• Scopes, thus poorly suited for shortrange combat
• Aiming sway
• Reduced hipfire accuracy

 

So yeah, if you look at the overall picture, Snipers are downright HORRIBLE weapons due to having very severe disadvantages and having mostly weak advantages. Not to mention, many of their advantages are severely crippled by their disadvantages anyway (and thus rendered somewhat moot). A great example would be their long range zoom capabilities (a weak advantage) countered by their aim sway (a really crippling disadvantages).

Thus, with those things in mind, this is what I'd propose as buffs and changes for Snipers:

• Reliable critchances with Point Strike alone, i.e. base 40+% crit chance (at least for all the "upgrade" variants, like Primes/Wraiths etc)
• Innate punchthrough on all Snipers (even if just a tiny bit)
• Shortened reloads (I mean, they have small magazines anyway, no need to doubledip in their disadvantages)
• Scopesway removed
• Hipfire accuracy made near perfect again
• Scopebonuses removed (to compensate for the other buffs)
• Combomechanic removed (to further compensate for the other buffs)

Now, with these changes, how would Bows and Snipers compare?

Bows' advantages, when compared to Sniper Rifles:

• Silent
• Body ragdoll (can kill multiple enemies in a line)
• Quick reload (Vectis series is comparably good though)
• No scope, thus also low zoom and no visual obstruction, well suited for most combat ranges of Warframe
• While they have chargetimes, they are fast, and benefit doubly from RoF mods

Bows' disadvantages, when compared to Sniper Rifles:

• Arcing projectile
• Have to reload between each shot
• No zoom, thus ill suited for long range combat
• Need to charge shots for optimal performance (even if the chargetimes are generally quick)

Sniper Rifles' advantages, when compared to Bows:

• Hitscan (exception for Lanka, but it's plenty fast anyway)
• Have multiple shots available before requiring a reload (Base Vectis as an exception)
• Scopes allow for longrange shots at variable distances (though only a small advantage)
• No chargetimes (Lanka as exception)

Sniper Rifles' disadvantages, when compared to Bows:

• Alarming sound
• No body ragdoll
• Mediumlong reloads
• Scopes, thus poorly suited for shortrange combat

For numerical examples, look here: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/790295-some-love-for-the-semiauto-rifles-and-snipers/

NOW they would look more fair to compare, don't you agreed?
Bows would remain better suited for stealth and smaller areas (more "agile", so to speak), while Snipers would definitely be better for medium+long distances and have quicker follow-up shots before their reload kicks in.

 

 

Bows have far more going for them than JUST easily guaranteeable critical hits: Stealth, short range agility (i.e. no scopes), body ragdoll and quick reloads are all very clear advantages. Giving Sniper Rifles ~40% base crit chance is NOT gonna make Bows obsolete as a category.

[helghastgunner]

12 hours ago, tarfeef101 said:

Well there's no point talking about balance on low levels, cause my mk1 braton can handle even sortie levels... You have to consider the high level content when discussing these things. Anything you bother putting mods on will handle lower levels...

 

And there's a difference between balance and consistency. Snipers are less consistent than bows, but fire faster, need less time to aim since they don't have slow projectiles, and have larger magazines (except the vectis). The offset/tradeoff is better handling and fire rate to compensate for the less consistent crits.

• Well um that's one strong Braton I'll give you that

• I'm considering level 100 units, I have no statistics but I doubt a large portion of the player base play above this level range.

• Yes snipers shoot faster (not by much though) however some of your shots are essentially going to tickle your target vs consistent damage from the bow, I find it evens it out.

• Projectile speed is something you gotta practice to get accustomed to using(though they could buff it to maybe rakta level), I find outside of the arenas most enemies do not attempt to move out of the way at all so hitting is not the hardest thing to do.

Why should the trade of be something so important as consistency though? The ferrox is a weapon that makes both these categories look bad but its allowed to exist, along side Sybaris P and Dex.