Mag should be the next frame DE should look at

[(PSN)Crixus044]

1 hour ago, Mudfam said:

The problem is that Polarise removes armour by a fixed amount, so the initial cast won't do very much at all due to how armour works in this game. I will give you an example with numbers.

Your mag has 200% power strength. You are trying to strip armour from a level 105 heavy unit which has exactly 8'000 armour, giving them 96.4% damage reduction.

3,4,3 combo example:

You cast polarise, removing 800 armour. The heavy gunner now has 7200 armour, their damage reduction has dropped from 96.4% to 96%. You have accomplished basically nothing.

You cast Crush with the augment, reducing their armour by 80% (capped) for the next 7 seconds. The heavy gunner now has 1440 armour. and 82% damage reduction. However, after 7 seconds this will expire.

In order to to make the effect of Fracturing crush permanent you must now strip all their armour down to 0, requiring 2 more casts of Polarise.

If we use the 4,3,3 combo instead:

You press 4 and remove 80% armour, leaving them with 1600. The enemy is now also knocked down, leaving to safely cast you 3 twice more for 800+800 removed armour, giving you that permanent 100% armour removal.

 

These are some pretty convoluted an unituitive mechanics, only understood by a very small portion of players. You should not take anything warframe tells you at face value because it's all very messy, undocumented and largely dysfunctional.

Well said friend. I always say percentages first, fixed values after when it comes to anything, because a percentage's effect increases with the load you're working with. This is why I proposed that Polarize switch from a fixed value strip to a base armor strip. Percentage's based off of total amounts increase with workload, but at a diminishing rate when it comes to successive casts, but a percentage based off of the base amount grows in effectiveness as levels increase, thus I say Polarize would do well to follow this trend. I proposed that 20% of based armor would be removed per cast, not affected by power strength, so that using the 4+3 combo at 160%+ Power Strength will strip armor completely with Fracturing Crush. This falls in line with how Fracturing Crush has a cap at 160%. Power Strength should instead go to increasing the speed of the wave and the shield restore amount.

[Mudfam]

37 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

Rule number 3 : Consider that some frames do flat damage with abilities. Others synergize with your equipment. In theory no one would play Nova "cause her damage is so weak", but in practice she is one of the most used frames.

Wait, what? That's a weird example. Nova has a great set of abilities and augments, one of the most powerful and huge, practically eternal CC abilities in the game that also doubles damage from all sources, she can drop antimatter bombs for effectively 400k damage in a pretty big AoE. She is one of the most powerful frames in the game all round, and on top of that she's the queen of speed running anything that can be speedrun, from spy to raids. Her 1 is kinda weak and has conflicting mechanics, but everything else about her is stupid good.

[phoenix1992]

2 minutes ago, Mudfam said:

Wait, what? That's a weird example. Nova has a great set of abilities and augments, one of the most powerful and huge, practically eternal CC abilities in the game that also doubles damage from all sources, she can drop antimatter bombs for effectively 400k damage in a pretty big AoE. She is one of the most powerful frames in the game all round, and on top of that she's the queen of speed running anything that can be speedrun, from spy to raids. Her 1 is kinda weak and has conflicting mechanics, but everything else about her is stupid good.

Yeah, but her abilities don't do direct damage.

Nova without THE augment or weapons can't do anything.

Edited October 11, 2017 by phoenix1992

[Mudfam]

Just now, phoenix1992 said:

Yeah, but here abilities don't do direct damage.

Nova without THE augment or weapons can't do anything.

Uh, guess I kinda missed your point then. Still not really sure what it is.

Personally I put no value at all in flat damage because of its inability to scale, the enemy scaling in this game is completely off the wall. I'm ok with it as long as the ability has a secondary function which remains useful regardless of scaling, which is what I would like to see more of with Mag.

I very rarely do endurance runs, so that's not what I'm talking about. However virtually all I do now is sorties, raids and kuva floods, which means level 100 is the most common level I go up against. I'm assuming these sort of levels will become more and more common, abilities should be designed to be functional at this level range, and indeed that's what we're seeing in more recent frame designs.

[phoenix1992]

Just now, Mudfam said:

Uh, guess I kinda missed your point then. Still not really sure what it is.

 

The point is that Nova is all about Synergy with your other equipment and team mates. She does not do flat or % damage on enemies (yeah, yeah her 2 can make a lot of enemies go boom).

So if we can accept that this is her case, we should also uphold the standard towards frames that are also synergizing with environment, like with Mag, while also valuing and respecting that design choice as long as it does not become obnoxiously bad trade off. 

Do mind that I am not aiming my original post or critique towards people that have showed examples of how and what happens and how it works/does not work.  I am aiming it towards those that use blanket arguments, without providing information about the said arguments.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

10 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

Yeah, but her abilities don't do direct damage.

Nova without THE augment or weapons can't do anything.

Maybe that's because she's a CC frame? lol
Even then, she has the easiest tactical nuke in game, doubles damage, and causes chain explosions that deal respectable damage. For a frame that has one of the most iconic CC abilities in game, she has amazing damage potential. Also, you have to remember that you are required to bring at least one weapon to a mission, so judging a frame based on use without a weapon is like judging a car without use of a steering wheel.

Also, teammates are a thing.

I get where you're coming from, but I'm just saying it's not a good or accurate way of looking at the game

[phoenix1992]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Maybe that's because she's a CC frame? lol
Even then, she has the easiest tactical nuke in game, doubles damage, and causes chain explosions that deal respectable damage. For a frame that has one of the most iconic CC abilities in game, she has amazing damage potential. Also, you have to remember that you are required to bring at least one weapon to a mission, so judging a frame based on use without a weapon is like judging a car without use of a steering wheel.

Also, teammates are a thing.

I get where you're coming from, but I'm just saying it's not a good or accurate way of looking at the game

Here we go a case example of the thing I am critiquing,

Are we all on an even field in this discussion? Does every participant count Mag as a DPS frame, or a CC one or a Support variant? Are we talking about the same result expectations (saying "well does well in Sorties and Kuva" does not exactly cut it) ?

Your example with the weapons is also bad - Nova with a shotgun versus Nova with a mid range melee. (don't even start on "well duh people won't be talking about subpar equipment, mods and builds - because they do, and they do it routinely usually not out of spite, but due to lack of knowledge or experience).

No, sorry you don't get what I am coming from. I am coming from the fact that very few people explain situations with loadouts and builds. 

PS: Something that is a "forum thingy". I never did say Mag is okay.  Neither is the format when it comes down to "fixing" warframes.

[blacklusterseph]

^ I guess another basic example of what you are saying are the exalted weapons; warframe abilities with  dramatically different damage output based on the weapon they inherit the mods from.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

1 minute ago, phoenix1992 said:

Here we go a case example of the thing I am critiquing,

Are we all on an even field in this discussion? Does every participant count Mag as a DPS frame, or a CC one or a Support variant? Are we talking about the same result expectations (saying "well does well in Sorties and Kuva" does not exactly cut it) ?

Your example with the weapons is also bad - Nova with a shotgun versus Nova with a mid range melee. (don't even start on "well duh people won't be talking about subpar equipment, mods and builds - because they do, and they do it routinely usually not out of spite, but due to lack of knowledge or experience).

No, sorry you don't get what I am coming from. I am coming from the fact that very few people explain situations with loadouts and builds. 

PS: Something that is a "forum thingy". I never did say Mag is okay.  Neither is the format when it comes down to "fixing" warframes.

Disagreed. Sorry dude, but that's not right. I am an endurance runner, so I always see things in how they perform to their limits. I prefer not to cheese missions, so I like the play a frame based around their strengths and take it as far as I can go, or until I have to go to work. I always judge a frame without augments at first and THEN decide on whether augments warrant enough sway in an argument. Mag and Nova are very similar when it comes to function, just different in how they channel it. Both of them have massive nukes that are based their damage off of weapon use, both have damage buffing capabilities, both are very efficient crowd control frames and both have a level of survivability. How's the basis of their functions? CC, survivability, AND damage for their functionality basis is great, so how's the implementation of their functionality? From what I've done, I can say for certain that every aspect of them can be used in tandem, and effectively in any aspect of the game. So how's their modding and loadout potential? Fantastic. Not only can you have builds with augments and unique power synergies, but you can have weapon+warframe synergy for even better performance. How's their augment mods? Wonderful. Escape Velocity is amazing, so is antimatter absorb for multiple reasons. Fracturing Crush technically deals more damage to Ehp than most radial nukes due to stripping armor, and it basically acts like a stackable Rhino Stomp, so great. Shield Transference, not the ultimate tank ability anymore, but it still does the job with overshields. Magnetized Discharge, manual detonation with disarming chance? Fantastic. Greedy Pull, not the ultimate farming tool anymore, but still great for survival capsules and still supportive with arcanes.

This is how I decide a frame's state. I don't go to the arsenal, see 300 damage on explosion and call the ability bad at damage because it needs some input to outclass everything else, which it does. Using this, I say both Nova and Mag are great at damage dealing, cc, and surviving, thus succeed in their role. I do believe minor changes here and there are good, but does DE need to look at Mag for the next rework? No. I'm not giving generalized big picture ideas here. I'm just giving you the basis on how you should see frames and then you use your knowledge and experience to form an opinion.

[phoenix1992]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

This is how I decide a frame's state. I don't go to the arsenal, see 300 damage on explosion and call the ability bad at damage because it needs some input to outclass everything else, which it does. Using this, I say both Nova and Mag are great at damage dealing, cc, and surviving, thus succeed in their role. I do believe minor changes here and there are good, but does DE need to look at Mag for the next rework? No. I'm not giving generalized big picture ideas here. I'm just giving you the basis on how you should see frames and then you use your knowledge and experience to form an opinion.

*smack*

I never did say Mag is okay. I never did say she needs rework either.  I am saying, for at least a third time now that people in this topic, including OP are making statements without backing them up in any form or fashion, and letting them just slide as the truth. And this is wrong due to multiple reasons, which If I list the same people will start getting issues in the backside.  

So please stop making me in a strawman for a point of view, that I am already supporting, mkay?

PS: You made your case about how you test things and your point of view, I am not arguing over that either.
PS 2: Refer to my original post on Page 6 in order to see how exactly the flow lead to here. You know the : "Show your builds, consider Simulacrum as not the end all, consider synergy".
PS 2 : OP as in Original Poster/Original Post, as in the one that started the topic.

Edited October 11, 2017 by phoenix1992

[Mudfam]

1 hour ago, phoenix1992 said:

Do mind that I am not aiming my original post or critique towards people that have showed examples of how and what happens and how it works/does not work.  I am aiming it towards those that use blanket arguments, without providing information about the said arguments.

Yeah, I get it. I was just a bit confused about the nova thing seeing as she's such a good damage frame in general.

[Legion-Shields]

Mag is fine.

Edited October 11, 2017 by Legion-Shields

[(PSN)Chel-El]

If you've

1 upgraded Mag with reactor and exilus 

2 forma

3 specter copied her with the intention of making the best copy

Confidently took her to win

1 boss battles

2 junctions

3 mastery rank tests 

Then I know you've trained with it well. Otherwise you're probably maining another frame (the one you applied those things to) and just playing Mag on the side and posting here either to vent or research. 

I hope the latter because that's how I am able to pull her off now in missions. Not by requesting/theorizing buffs but by learning from actual tips and tricks. 

 

Edited October 11, 2017 by (PS4)Chel-El

[(PSN)Crixus044]

2 hours ago, phoenix1992 said:

*smack*

2 hours ago, phoenix1992 said:

I never did say Mag is okay. I never did say she needs rework either.  I am saying, for at least a third time now that people in this topic, including OP are making statements without backing them up in any form or fashion, and letting them just slide as the truth. And this is wrong due to multiple reasons, which If I list the same people will start getting issues in the backside.  

So please stop making me in a strawman for a point of view, that I am already supporting, mkay?

PS: You made your case about how you test things and your point of view, I am not arguing over that either.
PS 2: Refer to my original post on Page 6 in order to see how exactly the flow lead to here. You know the : "Show your builds, consider Simulacrum as not the end all, consider synergy".
PS 2 : OP as in Original Poster/Original Post, as in the one that started the topic

Mkay, I can accept this. I was replying to the nova statement by itself, but seeing the context of the statement, your statement is not making that claim that I thought you were.

My Mag build I consider perfect for what I do, and it works wonders for me. I am one of those zenurik scrubs that builds around the energy gain passive because I don't have the plat or the time/consistent friends to farm JV with for Arcane Energize. Thus, at least my post provided with more points to the argument itself.

Edited October 12, 2017 by (PS4)Crixus044

[MagPrime]

3 hours ago, phoenix1992 said:

*smack*

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

-edited-

 

Behavior like this is what gets threads locked and warning points given.  Please, stop.

Edited October 12, 2017 by MagPrime

[(PSN)Crixus044]

1 minute ago, MagPrime said:

 

Behavior like this is what gets threads locked and warning points given.  Please, stop.

Was made as a joke, but seeing as how the profanity system works, I getcha. Give me a sec to edit it into something more.....child friendly

[MagPrime]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Was made as a joke, but seeing as how the profanity system works, I getcha. Give me a sec to edit it into something more.....child friendly

I've had the pleasure of interacting with both of you multiple times about the Forums, I understood.  ^.^  But, I've also experienced how our Moderation team works.  :/

[DatDarkOne]

Annnddd.....THE MagPrime has spoken!  :D

[(PSN)Crixus044]

24 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

I've had the pleasure of interacting with both of you multiple times about the Forums, I understood.  ^.^  But, I've also experienced how our Moderation team works.  :/

lol yeah so you've seen their bad side. Thanks for the reminder. Honestly, living in a ghetto area really desensitizes you to profanity, gotta remember that not all 10 year olds are using word that woud've gotten me smacked 10 years ago when I was 10 lol

[(PSN)TertulSee]

5 hours ago, phoenix1992 said:

Ok, can we make couple of rules considering topics like this? It is starting to get majorly annoying.

Rule number 1 : Show examples and proof of the builds that you were running and where you were using them. 

Yeah no. 
Rule number 2 : If you are going to pull simulacrum or DPS builders, prepare to get your jimmies rustled. Actual dynamic gameplay has little to have with Simulacrum, stop using it as base.
Rule number 3 : Consider that some frames do flat damage with abilities. Others synergize with your equipment. In theory no one would play Nova "cause her damage is so weak", but in practice she is one of the most used frames.
Rule number 4 : Few days. Are you doing it on purpose? Even @MagPrime won't open up a fresh Mag copy and forma her enough times in order to test all builds in few days.

It’s been a few weeks now and I still think she can’t handle the content I put her against. She’s not good against any of the factions mostly either because of Nullifiers, too much armor or not enough CC. I’ve ran several builds and none of them work out the way they should. I feel that if her Augment for Crush had the cap removed, she would be more valuable to a team. What can you do when the rest of your team can do your job but better? I guess nothing. Even with a Trinity, she can only do so much and provides very little when put in a coordinated team situation. When not put in a coordinated team, she can only do so much that would rather be filled by another frame. She has no role. She only has a meh role for everything. She doesn’t even have a Niche use. Not entirely useless but she has a lot of problems. If you give me a build, I can probably test it and see how you guys use Mag. But she eats energy too quickly and it’s pretty much an unrealistic amount.

Edited October 12, 2017 by (PS4)godlysparta

[nerfinator6]

On 9/30/2017 at 3:49 PM, (PS4)godlysparta said:

Someone mentioned only using her against Corpus and plus, Mag isn’t very good at stripping armor where I play at. She can’t handle Sorties which is the bare minimum I look for in frames.

Have you tried her on bosses?

 

MAGnatize is OP as hell on sortie bosses.

[MagPrime]

43 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

lol yeah so you've seen their bad side. Thanks for the reminder. Honestly, living in a ghetto area really desensitizes you to profanity, gotta remember that not all 10 year olds are using word that woud've gotten me smacked 10 years ago when I was 10 lol

I worked in a ship repair yard, doing security with ex military.  Profanity and expletives don't bother me.

[(PSN)Chel-El]

10 minutes ago, nerfinator6 said:

Have you tried her on bosses?

 

MAGnatize is OP as hell on sortie bosses.

Have you tried turning her off and on? lol 

If the Operator thinks the frame is useless then the war without is already lost 

Some here need a mindset change, not a mod change 

[nerfinator6]

Just now, (PS4)Chel-El said:

Have you tried turning her off and on? lol 

If the Operator thinks the frame is useless then the war without is already lost 

Some here need a mindset change, not a mod change 

I don't think she's useless, just a bit of a niche right now.

[MagPrime]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Chel-El said:

Have you tried turning her off and on? lol 

If the Operator thinks the frame is useless then the war without is already lost 

Some here need a mindset change, not a mod change 

Pretty much.