Where is Warframe going? What does DE expect it to be?

[Heatnix.]

Here's what I've always been telling on this situation:

DE doesn't know. They don't know where they wanted the game to go and have been making attempts at switching it into a different, drastic direction. However... every time they do... it's not over. They never finish that change before they go into another. The entire game is a ton of fads put together, unfinished projects and never ending core system changes. They wanted it to be PvE, then add raids but dropped them, then add more pvp but dropped them, then went back to PvE but now they want to focus on solo play but now they want to focus on open world--

Core system changes. How would anyone expect the game to take a direction when they STILL continue making core system changes? They don't even have a solid foundation to build the game upon, they keep trying to built a tower but re-making the first floor over and over again in different shapes.

Simple example: Remember the new Movement system with dolphin jump? Meant to bring more movement and challenging maps? Made anything challenging about the old parkour obsolete and they never built maps upon the new movement system because it was too difficult. So now they have moved on. Will they change movement again? Absolutely.

Either they have a lead with conflicting views or they keep changing it making everyone run around like a chicken with it's head cut off (Ember deluxe skin). When the game started, it was all about ninjas in this dark ambiance in the future with incredible technology and the path of honor killing deformed, vicious enemies. Now it's all about space, mentally unstable magical girls fishing in the future in what appears to be a third world country bazaar that never heard about space travel or any technology at all, not even to wear something that isn't bandages. And that's just lore! Mechanics, maps, enemies, Rivens, the Void, Focus, lame, emotional teens running around with super powers... the hell?

Point is: If DE doesn't know where they're going neither will we. The contrast of change so far has been way too drastic. A lot of people insist that it's still "dark" and deep, but I can only imagine them in fetal position convincing themselves of it, always remembering the game it used to be and not what it is now.

Edited October 17, 2017 by Heatnix.

[(PSN)HSomDevil]

3 hours ago, Antiphoton said:

It's astonishing and amazing on a technical and symbolical level

Not really, no.

 

3 hours ago, Antiphoton said:

Do you think Warframe has a defined sense of where is it going?

Nope, DE will keep testing different concepts and overhauling them (Archwing, Focus, Open maps, quests, etc) for as long as they can get away with it. Which is to say as long as we will test them voluntarily and keep funding the experiment.

[Warhawg01]

Here is what I don't like about the direction Warframe is going:

Remember the fun times of "do a quest, get a new frame?" That died after the Silver Grove (a great quest, BTW). Now, it's do a quest, get a blueprint and then saddle up for some Rotation C shenanigans.  Nidus, Octavia, Harrow...

Don't like playing as the Operator? Too dang bad. War Within, Harrow quest, Focus 2.0, Eidolon killing...where does this end? I bet it doesn't. 

I have farmed a lot in this game, but it never felt like a chore. I had fun playing. I enjoyed fishing initially. Now it's becoming  work. The millions of focus points that I will apparently have to farm to make the Operator mode I don't even enjoy somewhat more bearable. To say nothing of Quills standing...

So, no. I do not like the direction DE is going. It's obvious they don't value my time playing the game.  

[(PSN)robotwars7]

4 hours ago, Antiphoton said:

Sorties are fun and challenging.

gotta disagree on this. Sorties are not challenging when you have half-decent gear, and are a breeze with the appropriate Meta weapons. "fun" is debateable, it's not fun to get those sculptures 10 times in a row, as I'm sure many unlucky sods can attest. I'll start doing them regularly again when we get PoE on Console, because Kuva is more worthwhile than lenses, but right now Sorties aren't all that likeable.

as for where Warframe is going, I've no idea. one thing you gotta give DE credit for is their ambition: I haven't seen other Devs take such bold risks as making their non-open world game become Open world-ish. whether they execute this well or not is up for debate, but they keep us guessing, and I like that.

anyway, i think most people knew plains wasn't gonna be perfect on release; the grind will be addressed, the bugs will be fixed and the best thing you guys can do is make the most of the new Sub forum specifically for PoE feedback. seriously, tell them every damn complaint that you have, write as much of it down as you can, and it'll at least go on record even if it isn't changed. PoE WILL get better over time, and each new Landscape will gradually get better as well. everyone just need to relax and let them get on with it, reporting problems as and when they arise.

[Antiphoton]

19 minutes ago, Warhawg01 said:

Here is what I don't like about the direction Warframe is going:

Remember the fun times of "do a quest, get a new frame?" That died after the Silver Grove (a great quest, BTW). Now, it's do a quest, get a blueprint and then saddle up for some Rotation C shenanigans.  Nidus, Octavia, Harrow...

Don't like playing as the Operator? Too dang bad. War Within, Harrow quest, Focus 2.0, Eidolon killing...where does this end? I bet it doesn't. 

I have farmed a lot in this game, but it never felt like a chore. I had fun playing. I enjoyed fishing initially. Now it's becoming  work. The millions of focus points that I will apparently have to farm to make the Operator mode I don't even enjoy somewhat more bearable. To say nothing of Quills standing...

So, no. I do not like the direction DE is going. It's obvious they don't value my time playing the game.  

I actually don't mind the farm that much. It isn't worse than the farm for a prime, I think. Gara is worse in this matter tho: first, do the quest (which is short, for what it's worth), then farm bounties, which you cannot spam so it may take several days, and then, spend even more time fishing and mining to get the materials to build her.

The time consumed by the grind itself isn't that bad, but the activities we do during that grind in this case are worse.

But I can relate to your general point. It's like when we start playing we get the general idea of "here, take some mk1 stuff, you can look forward to getting a ton of new weapons and frames". We do that. We spend time finding mods, upgrading them, formaing and potatoing stuff, finding specific rivens, all which is enjoyable. And when we finally reach our personal goals and want to use our toys? "Here's archwing". Or "here's Lunaro". Or "here are operators". Now it's "here's fishing".

I thought the community reached a consensus a few months ago when the whole "all dressed up but nowhere to go" topic came up, but it seems the message wasn't clear enough. Or DE's vision is different. I still cannot fully understand it, and I wonder if they do themselves.

[Unus]

The thing that scares me is that, well, I believe Digital has got themselves caught in a nasty bear-trap that there is no escape from. They desperately want to keep players coming in with new content, but, they also want to go back and tweak things under the hood. The trouble is, the moment they stop pumping content, the fish-attention-spanned hordes start bailing out due to boredom. If they continue pumping content, the blasé veterans stir up a fuss and leave in droves.

 

Now, they are stuck trying to please two massive groups using limited (compare Digital to E.A.'s size) resources and are trapped. They are trying to expand in the form of the hero-shooter, but, said shooter is emergeing onto a saturated market. In trying to cater to their entire fanbase, they have run into the dark and painful fact that there are what amounts to powerful "political factions" in gamer communities who all think they know what everyone wants. By not focus marketing and going with their own happy creative whims, they've ruined any chance of ever truly pleasing anyone.

 

Enjoy what time you have with Warframe folks, I know I will, even as it fades to the inky black I will continue to write up ideas about it. Even in the end, as I stand among the ashes, I'll have a smile on my face knowing I was a fan of Digital, the little studio that could.

[Antiphoton]

2 hours ago, Unus said:

The thing that scares me is that, well, I believe Digital has got themselves caught in a nasty bear-trap that there is no escape from. They desperately want to keep players coming in with new content, but, they also want to go back and tweak things under the hood. The trouble is, the moment they stop pumping content, the fish-attention-spanned hordes start bailing out due to boredom. If they continue pumping content, the blasé veterans stir up a fuss and leave in droves.

 

Now, they are stuck trying to please two massive groups using limited (compare Digital to E.A.'s size) resources and are trapped. They are trying to expand in the form of the hero-shooter, but, said shooter is emergeing onto a saturated market. In trying to cater to their entire fanbase, they have run into the dark and painful fact that there are what amounts to powerful "political factions" in gamer communities who all think they know what everyone wants. By not focus marketing and going with their own happy creative whims, they've ruined any chance of ever truly pleasing anyone.

 

Enjoy what time you have with Warframe folks, I know I will, even as it fades to the inky black I will continue to write up ideas about it. Even in the end, as I stand among the ashes, I'll have a smile on my face knowing I was a fan of Digital, the little studio that could.

I don't think the time has come to start the doomsaying yet. It's true that resources are thinned between two conflicting aspects, but they still are in time to focus on something.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

8 hours ago, Saksoy said:

Why is fishing even in warframe? 

Because Ultima Online demands tribute, non-believer!!!!

[Belligerent_Engine]

Whoever is pushing operator mode as a thing in Warframe needs to reconsider those design choices, because running around outside the warframe just feels clunky as hell and not fun at all. Sadly since they just released it, it'll probably be another couple years before they get around to doing anything about it. If they just focused on core gameplay instead of bolting on extra crap the open world stuff would be fine.

[Legion-Shields]

Personally I think Warframe needs to go in a direction that involves more Mags.

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

I wouldn’t say DE doesn’t totally know where they want Warframe to go, just that don’t want to limit its potential by being to narrow. 

There will always be a struggle to refine what they have and to expand to keep the game fresh. 

For myself, I dived deep into DE’s past to try to understand where the game is going. 

The original, pre-concept video Dark Sector, was a spiritual successor to Unreal and was heavily inspired by Wing Commander: Privateer. Basically, an FPS in space with multi-player bounties and multiple faction and resource/economies systems while zipping through space in your personal space craft. That was circa 200-2002.

A few years later and you have something that looks more like the Warframe we now knowC but still had elements of the previous ideas. It was probably around 2004-2005+ I read a gameinformer article about Dark Sector. I wanted that game ever since.

I posted here and on reddit how I think DE should dip into that well again  I also suggest they create larger maps. Both, are happening to some degree.  Plains clearly, and the Tenno squad ship is in the direction of the other. Not that anyone from DE necessarily ever saw my suggestions.

 

Edited October 18, 2017 by (PS4)MoRockaPDX

[Omnimorph]

11 hours ago, Antiphoton said:

I remember Rebecca once said in a stream that they have learned something very important in a game dev talk they attended: the worst thing that can happen to your game is for it be simply "good", and that's it. If your game has something like "7/10" reviews, people will play it, enjoy it, and forget about it rather quickly. What is needed for success today is making something extreme and unconventional, something that will make people talk about it. If your game has that, it will have a decent level of success by today's market standards even if it is a "0/10".

Well, I think that there is truth in that train of thought, but you also need to balance that with making things actually "good".
I feel that PoE is that, without said balance. It's astonishing and amazing on a technical and symbolical level, but after doing the activities PoE offers me, I was extremely disappointed. Some of the biggest issues for me are:

• The resource/standing economy is completely messed up and should be redesigned from scratch to make any sense. They are monitoring it and will modify it as needed, I know, but I doubt it will too different from how it is now.
• Too much focus on fishing and mining. This should have been an optional minigame, an alternative way to gain standing, not something mandatory to craft a new frame or the new operator items. If I wanted to fish/mine, I'd play games that have better mechanics for it, not a sci-fi shooter.
•  Grineer in the plains. They can shoot from hundreds of meters. I can too, but the difference is that they can see me through tall grass. I can not see them. Firefights in the plains feel as if they were happening in a cornfield and your enemies had thermal googles.
• Lack of a sense of reward. From a purely gameplay perspective, there is nothing in the plains for me worth doing. The new operator stuff, maybe, but the amount of time required to get something marginally better than the initial equipment for a system that I already use as little as possibe is not worth it.

The Eidolon fights are good, and I wouldn't mind doing them just for fun now and then. But that's it. All this update has is an optional boss fight, a 2.5 square km captura scene, and a reason to talk about Warframe.

And here comes my question, to my fellow Tenno, and to DE themselves, even if I don't get a direct reply. This is mostly out of curiosity, nothing else:
Do you think Warframe has a defined sense of where is it going? What does it expect to become as a game? Because since I started playing, all I've seen is additions of random systems (syndicates, archwing, focus, rivens, Cetus, etc) that  are never fully polished and are abandoned rather quickly. All of those systems are not related between them, they are aislated in their own little bubbles. And they all make the game seem as a tower of uneven bricks, trembling under its own weight.

And all of this made me ask myself: why do I play Warframe? What made it my most played game, with over 1200 steam hours? What do I expect from it?
The answers came fairly quickly.
- I like the lore.
- The basic gameplay systems (shooting, movement, abilities and modding) are solid.
- I love every aspect of the visual and artistic design, and how it borrows elements from unconventional sources.
- I expect a fun challenge.

And as I love this game, I need to say: the current direction the game is taking is neither fun nor challenging*.

*Except for the Eidolon fights. Those are fine.

 

And on a kinda unrelated topic, if you would grant me a wish, I would ask  for two things:
- Make sorties cycle every 1-2 hours, like Kuva floods or Cetus bounties. Nerf the rewards if needed. Sorties are fun and challenging.
- Put a chance of a special reward every 8 rotations in endless missions, like a chance for a riven mod or a potato. Endurance runs are fun and challenging.

I think DE partly have a plan and partly wing it.  I think their long-term plan has probably always been to have the game be a pseudo-MMO like Guild Wars (with multiplayer lobbies and large instanced zones for small teams/raids), and to that end they probably always wanted to have larger pseudo-persistent zones.  

Their hard problem is that they have to keep looking for alternative sources of progression to keep players playing.  The main warframe progression system is tapped out, it has no more "headroom," (other than new warframes ofc) so they have to look for other systems that players can get their teeth into grinding with.

That's what AW was about, that's what Lunaro was about, that's what PoE is about.  AW and Lunaro didn't "take," I think PoE will probably take, and I hope they develop more big zones with their own farming/rep grinds that are partly separate from but also partly connected to the "main" game's progression system as it has been up till now.

My main hope is that they start a phase of consolidation/adjustment/polish at some point in the near future, the game does need it.  It's been understandable that they've concentrated on introducing new things, because that's what keeps players coming back, but at some point I think they do have to look towards "finishing" stuff in the trail of semi-unfinished once-new things that litter the game's past.

Hopefully after they've done maybe one or two more big zones (which probably won't take a long, now that they've done one) and are finally happy with the combat system, they'll take a few updates to really polish up all the systems that are in place (maybe get rid of or completely overhaul a few of them).  And then, in that sense, the game will finally be "finished" (though after that point they'll be able to keep introducing new big zones, raids and more endgame activities, and warframes).

Edited October 18, 2017 by Omnimorph

[Unus]

7 hours ago, Antiphoton said:

I don't think the time has come to start the doomsaying yet. It's true that resources are thinned between two conflicting aspects, but they still are in time to focus on something.

Eh. . . If it was any other company on this dirtball, I would actually begrudgingly agree with you.

 

Its just that, facts are facts, Digital lives or dies as it exists right now based on Warframe. We're at a point in our history where we're getting the most publicity since Digital essentially launched "Operation:Improbable".

 

Some day soon, it will come to a point where, to keep the game going, Digital will have to make a choice, one that'll shake the game to it's core. We've gotten our five minutes of fame, we've even managed to get what amounts to a "Book Deal". At this point, barring a motion picture somehow appearing, this is it. Digitals gonna  have to cater to someone at some point in order to sustain itself into the future. That, or, diversify into other games.

[Marvelous_A]

Next time they will add space Gwent into this game and ask you to win 1000 games to get the resources for new equipment. And to win the game you will need to grind for rare cards. Or pay for it. Mark my words.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Marvelous_A

[Ejuz]

I just want more boss fights, wait, I want boss fights that actually work and ain't just bullet sponges. Where you have to dodge, roll, hide and memorize patterns. Skill based boss encounters and not just excuse to push the operator gameplay on us.