Focus 2.0: Focus Exp = Not Fun

[Renzo]

On 10/22/2017 at 12:57 AM, racooperii said:

Honestly it should be closer to the Syndicate standing gain, those are still a grind with a daily cap but you don't feel like you have to stop doing something that's FUN to work on farming your daily standing.

You know, there will be people who are going to say "it is not supposed to be fun always" about various things. The last time I saw something like this, it was said on a thread where people were unhappy about the random alarms locking the doors and forcing you to stop doing what you are doing and hacking the panels to get the doors open again.

Now here is the thing. People play games to have fun, so yes, it definitely needs to be fun. If it wasn't fun, would anyone (other than masochists) even be playing the game in that case?

Currently gaining acceptable amounts of focus without actually having to do it on purpose (grinding) is not particularly fun, for the reasons mentioned in the OP and otherwise in this thread. If the orbs got removed and focus gains were increased to the level of at least greater lense + the orb, one would be getting acceptable amounts of focus while still doing whatever they wanted to do and possibly while having fun as well, instead of being locked to certain weapons and/or doing hydron or similar.

Edited October 23, 2017 by runx0

[Ceryk]

27 minutes ago, DarkDemonXR69 said:

So I see here another problem. At least on defenses... Focus should be work with exp sharing not only who kills the mob. If I see exp numbers on my screen that can level up all my gear why not raise my focus when Im 30 and have a lense installed¿?  And this is not only a banshee issue... every nuke warframe could be a problem to farm focus on those missions. Banshee syndicate, Equinox nuke, Ember running with WoF activated, Saryn spreading virus and killing all room. Even at survivals, see a room full of enemies, run to kill'em all, then they die because Equinox releases their 4th, boom 0 focus gained. Yes you have other enemies to kill but its annoying to have to "focus" too on exactly KILLING, not exp farm. Or maybe I miss something no how the system works...

The way the system works, as I understand it, is that it ONLY shares exp when you pick up a Convergence Orb. It's part of why Stealth Farming has been so popular for Focus Farming. There are a lot of people calling for the removal of the Convergence Orb. It's honestly probably one of the single worst things ever added to the game. It's meant to help with Focus Exp but it so often is useless or inconvenient.

 

9 minutes ago, runx0 said:

Now here is the thing. People play games to have fun, so yes, it definitely needs to be fun. If it wasn't fun, would anyone (other than masochists) even be playing the game in that case?

Exactly. In someone else's thread on the pooptastic state of Focus Exp someone came in and started arguing that the game is about farming and farming isn't fun... And thinking to myself: "Why do you even play a game you literally just said you think is entirely about being bored???"

I mean, I accept that there will be things that annoy me or I don't like in games. But it should NOT be a MAJOR aspect of the game. I really don't like that rivens come from a single source and I really don't like the RNG involved, but that doesn't stop me from having fun. It's an annoyance, but it's got nothing on having to make a choice between having fun and advancing a significant mechanic.

[Demaneth]

1 minute ago, Ceryk said:

The way the system works, as I understand it, is that it ONLY shares exp when you pick up a Convergence Orb. It's part of why Stealth Farming has been so popular for Focus Farming. There are a lot of people calling for the removal of the Convergence Orb. It's honestly probably one of the single worst things ever added to the game. It's meant to help with Focus Exp but it so often is useless or inconvenient.

That means when I pick an orb every focus I gain is shared with my team mates¿? If it is that way, yes, orbs are annoying. Most of the focus we gain is out of that orb bonus. And If that really works that way, yesterday I should have ended with more focus, because my friend with banshee was always picking up orbs after start using 4th to kill the entire room. With or without orbs I still think focus should be gained and shared with team mates, if equinox blows up a full of 20 enemies in a survival I should get that focus too. The same I mean, not a little %...

[Ceryk]

29 minutes ago, DarkDemonXR69 said:

That means when I pick an orb every focus I gain is shared with my team mates¿? If it is that way, yes, orbs are annoying. Most of the focus we gain is out of that orb bonus. And If that really works that way, yesterday I should have ended with more focus, because my friend with banshee was always picking up orbs after start using 4th to kill the entire room. With or without orbs I still think focus should be gained and shared with team mates, if equinox blows up a full of 20 enemies in a survival I should get that focus too. The same I mean, not a little %...

You need to be the one to pick up the orb to get the bonuses involved with it rather than the person doing the killing. And if it spawns and everything is dead or you are about to change a round, you're out of luck.

Edited October 23, 2017 by Ceryk

[Atekron]

3 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

We need these updates to make the focus farming acceptable:

1. Drop the cap entirely, even with maximum focus gain it takes hours of specific farming to reach it no need to cap it.
2. Remove convergence orb and increase the passive gain to 10% of the affinity atleast
3. If desired give us a consumable what increases the passive gain to 30% for 3 minutes
4. Make an option to convert credits and endo to focus experience directly. 3 credits for 1 focus point and 2 endo for 1 focus point
5. Give us actual quills quests where we can earn focus and their reputation
6. Kills with operators should turn 100% of the affinity into focus

^^^ not bad ideas here

[Sabreracer]

As I recall the orbs happened due to complaints about Focus afking in Draco.

Thing is Draco got nuked from orbit but the orbs remain.

I'm think the Cap for Focus is fine sure we'd all like to get somewhere SoonTM with the schools but gaining 5K a day naturally while playing ain't good.

The cap should be the speedbrake not an abysmal gain rate.

[Ceryk]

1 hour ago, Sabreracer said:

As I recall the orbs happened due to complaints about Focus afking in Draco.

Thing is Draco got nuked from orbit but the orbs remain.

I'm think the Cap for Focus is fine sure we'd all like to get somewhere SoonTM with the schools but gaining 5K a day naturally while playing ain't good.

The cap should be the speedbrake not an abysmal gain rate.

Not sure about the Draco thing, I remember things differently... What I recall is that they added the orbs because the original design of Focus was that all Focus Exp was meant to be gained from your own personal kills only and that it was not affected by Shared Exp and no one was happy about that so they added the orbs in as a compromise.

But either way, it's ultimately not an argument that holds up too well at the end of the day. I don't really feel like it  does anything really significant to stop people semi-afk leeching on Hydron. You may still have to grab the orbs, but you can ignore everything going on around you until you hear that sound come up, go get it, then go back to paying attention to Netflix until you hear the sound or see the icon again.

But yeah, the Daily Cap is enough of a hard gate that gaining Focus should be almost stupidly easy so that it can also be a fun experience (which is sort of the point of gaming...). A lot of people have limited time they can play and want to do more than spend it farming Focus Exp. Making it so you gain Focus Exp easily and naturally so that you gain meaningful ammount just by playing the way you'd normally play needs to happen. Especially since this is no longer a system just about end game gains and the explicit purpose of making Veteran player's Warframes stronger for hardcore players who want to do endless missions easier. Core players need to be the barometer, not the super hardcores that practically or literally play the game for a living. They are going to burn through it and complaining how nothing is a challenge anyway.

Edited October 23, 2017 by Ceryk

[bloodyshredder]

Hope this guys gets Noticed by DE He KnowS What'S Up

 

[Shards-of-a-Soul]

Not that I think the focus grind is fine as is, I don't. It's just painful. It needs to be fixed and I like a lot of the suggestions here. But I kinda feel like making focus even worth bothering with in the first place is more important.

 

I mean, so what if we can actually get focus by, you know, just playing the game, when it's utterly useless anyway?

[Fallen_Echo]

2 hours ago, Sabreracer said:

As I recall the orbs happened due to complaints about Focus afking in Draco.

Thing is Draco got nuked from orbit but the orbs remain.

I'm think the Cap for Focus is fine sure we'd all like to get somewhere SoonTM with the schools but gaining 5K a day naturally while playing ain't good.

The cap should be the speedbrake not an abysmal gain rate.

The problem is that even with the new Eidolon lense the passive focus gain is max 2.25% with a convergence or its 18%.

If you do a normal mission having ediolon lenses in all gear, lets say Hieracon 2K run and earn total 150K affinity that will be 27K focus points if you picked up every convergence orbs and 3375 if you missed them all. 

This means to reach the daily cap with max farming you need to do 10 runs to reach the daily cap and 74 if you play casually.

 

The best solution would be to increase the passive gain to 10% atleast and the cap gets removed completely along with the orbs. If they really need some less afk solution make a craftable item what grants the bonus of the convergence orb for 3 minutes but only when standing near allies and actively dealing damage every 2 sec.

[Ceryk]

1 minute ago, Shards-of-a-Soul said:

Not that I think the focus grind is fine as is, I don't. It's just painful. It needs to be fixed and I like a lot of the suggestions here. But I kinda feel like making focus even worth bothering with in the first place is more important.

 

I mean, so what if we can actually get focus by, you know, just playing the game, when it's utterly useless anyway?

My problem with this argument is that it's highly subjective. Some of us see tremendous potential for greater depth and strategy with Focus 2.0 where other people see nothing nerfs to their Super Powered Frames and don't want to ever use the Operator even if they actually turn out to be pretty awesome once we start getting them powered up.

[Shards-of-a-Soul]

Just now, Ceryk said:

My problem with this argument is that it's highly subjective. Some of us see tremendous potential for greater depth and strategy with Focus 2.0 where other people see nothing nerfs to their Super Powered Frames and don't want to ever use the Operator even if they actually turn out to be pretty awesome once we start getting them powered up.

What's subjective about it? Operators are useless. Low survivability, low damage, slow. What do they have at all?

[Ceryk]

Just now, Shards-of-a-Soul said:

What's subjective about it? Operators are useless. Low survivability, low damage, slow. What do they have at all?

I have had little problem with doing damage with them and I am in the process of boosting my survivability via the tools given to us to do so, so I don't believe you are actually given the system the chance and are basing your ideas on prejudice.

[Shards-of-a-Soul]

Just now, Ceryk said:

I have had little problem with doing damage with them and I am in the process of boosting my survivability via the tools given to us to do so, so I don't believe you are actually given the system the chance and are basing your ideas on prejudice.

K, tell me when you can finish a sortie with your operator.

[Ceryk]

4 minutes ago, Shards-of-a-Soul said:

K, tell me when you can finish a sortie with your operator.

You clearly don't understand how Operators are meant to work if you are making asinine comments like that.

[Shards-of-a-Soul]

Just now, Ceryk said:

You clearly don't understand how Operators are meant to work if you are making asinine comments like that.

Eh, the passive buffs to frames don't do much, and other than just slapping things with your amp that's all operators really do.

Also, clearly you think direct combat is at least a large part of their role, considering the first thing you said about them was this.

15 minutes ago, Ceryk said:

I have had little problem with doing damage with them and I am in the process of boosting my survivability via the tools given to us to do so,

 

[Ceryk]

Just now, Shards-of-a-Soul said:

Eh, the passive buffs to frames don't do much, and other than just slapping things with your amp that's all operators really do.

Also, clearly you think direct combat is at least a large part of their role, considering the first thing you said about them was this.

You are making assumptions without real evidence having never seen me play. Just because I've done adequate damage with them and do use them in combat in certain situations does not mean sit around trying to to fight with like I do with my frame.

[Shards-of-a-Soul]

4 minutes ago, Ceryk said:

You are making assumptions without real evidence having never seen me play. Just because I've done adequate damage with them and do use them in combat in certain situations does not mean sit around trying to to fight with like I do with my frame.

...Okay? That just shows they aren't even good for combat. What exactly are they good for?

Especially anything worth this ridiculous focus grind.

[Sabreracer]

I've not been a fan of the operator since they arrived and mine is stuffed in the box and muted unless I really really need to use him.

However since the update and changes, I'm actually having fun running round shooting Eidilons in the crotch, cloaking and void dashing to heal my team mates.

[Sabreracer]

1 hour ago, Ceryk said:

Not sure about the Draco thing, I remember things differently... What I recall is that they added the orbs because the original design of Focus was that all Focus Exp was meant to be gained from your own personal kills only and that it was not affected by Shared Exp and no one was happy about that so they added the orbs in as a compromise.

But either way, it's ultimately not an argument that holds up too well at the end of the day. I don't really feel like it  does anything really significant to stop people semi-afk leeching on Hydron. You may still have to grab the orbs, but you can ignore everything going on around you until you hear that sound come up, go get it, then go back to paying attention to Netflix until you hear the sound or see the icon again.

But yeah, the Daily Cap is enough of a hard gate that gaining Focus should be almost stupidly easy so that it can also be a fun experience (which is sort of the point of gaming...). A lot of people have limited time they can play and want to do more than spend it farming Focus Exp. Making it so you gain Focus Exp easily and naturally so that you gain meaningful ammount just by playing the way you'd normally play needs to happen. Especially since this is no longer a system just about end game gains and the explicit purpose of making Veteran player's Warframes stronger for hardcore players who want to do endless missions easier. Core players need to be the barometer, not the super hardcores that practically or literally play the game for a living. They are going to burn through it and complaining how nothing is a challenge anyway.

Hmm thinking back, it was complaints about "Emba iz stealing ma killz" so shared gain was needed. But the way of doing so was influenced by the Draco XP Meta.

However everything has been changed since then to stop all that.  I hate having to play dull as dishwater missions just to farm focus so once I had enough to get by in F 1.0 I just stopped bothering.  Now I'm interested in increasing it again but stealth exterminate  

I did try it again last night and sure enough half way through the orb appeared 500m behind me  by the time I've backtracked that far and come back I may as well not bother.

[DiabolusUrsus]

Fortunately I'm seeing a lot of Focus threads saying mostly the same things, so unless DE decides to be stubborn about it like with Hema research we should hopefully see a change.

Convergence does not add ANYTHING positive to the experience, and actively hurts teamplay.

[DiabolusUrsus]

Doublepost wow

Edited October 23, 2017 by DiabolusUrsus

[DiabolusUrsus]

Triplepost WOW

Edited October 23, 2017 by DiabolusUrsus

[Ceryk]

25 minutes ago, Sabreracer said:

Hmm thinking back, it was complaints about "Emba iz stealing ma killz" so shared gain was needed. But the way of doing so was influenced by the Draco XP Meta.

However everything has been changed since then to stop all that.  I hate having to play dull as dishwater missions just to farm focus so once I had enough to get by in F 1.0 I just stopped bothering.  Now I'm interested in increasing it again but stealth exterminate  

I did try it again last night and sure enough half way through the orb appeared 500m behind me  by the time I've backtracked that far and come back I may as well not bother.

Oh man... totally forgot kill stealing used to be a thing we had to deal with, lol.

But yeah, I enjoy doing a Stealth Exterminate once and awhile. I just don't want to do it for an hour and a half every day to max out my Focus Exp. And I had a couple of orbs spawn way out of the way from enemies. Even with the fact that they spawn enemies pretty much infinately now, doesn't mean there will be a good number around where that spawned and you've lengthened the mission unnecessarily because you have to travel double that distance to deal with it.

[Fallen_Echo]

2 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Doublepost wow

Good old bugged forum buttons:D

 

Back to topic, i really want to think that they dont go stubborn and listen to feedback this time.

Looking at the steam page of warframe while the game is popular this update broke the record for negative reviews.