Lack of Universal Vacuum Hinders Companion Diversity and Pet Updates

[Kalvorax]

35 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

3 meters -_-

i know right...they apparently do not understand that 3m is NOTHING...6m would at least be noticeable...but 3...pft...and apparently it was an undocumented change as it has been in since PoE landed.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

11 minutes ago, Kalvorax said:

i know right...they apparently do not understand that 3m is NOTHING...6m would at least be noticeable...but 3...pft...and apparently it was an undocumented change as it has been in since PoE landed.

It was there before the PoE. It was there at least for a year.

[Kalvorax]

1 minute ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

It was there before the PoE. It was there at least for a year.

and yet they say they introduced it with U22.....

the last time they had any documented changes to warframe vacuum was for a VERY brief period during The Vacuum Within testing....and that was at 6 meters, which lasted for maybe an hour or 2 at most before they nuked it in favor for the current Sentinel Vacuum mod.

[BlackCoMerc]

On 11/1/2017 at 2:18 PM, Ceryk said:

Eh, I suppose that might be considered appeasement if you take it at face value. The seahorse helmet was a MAJOR design mistake though while Vacuum is not.

Chroma is very specifically designed themed after Chromatic Dragons from D&D, not generic dragons. I mean he literally takes his name from the term Chromatic Dragon. Making him look like a seahorse instead of a dragon similar to what Chromatic Dragons actually look like was something that should have never gotten through design approval phase.

But as you yourself point out, vacuum is not necessary and part of their philosophy of wanting players to make conscious choices about their loadouts.

So at the end of the day, one of them is about correcting a mistake that should have never been allowed to happen in the first place while the other is an artificial player made issue that they choose to inflict on themselves rather than some mistake the devs made. DE has said numerous times that they are always willing to correct mistakes if they truly are mistakes, which doesn't really fall under the category of appeasement.

If DE wanted players to make conscious choices about Loadouts, Vitality, Redirection, Steel Fiber, Serration and Multi Shot mods wouldn't exist.

The problem us that DE only know what they DONT want: Progression and loot gathering with sufficient speed and Efficiency to negate plat sales.

Until they can formulate a coherent roadmap for what they DO want, expect more floundering around and throwing stuff at walls Lunaro/Operator style to see what sticks.

[Lemon]

Hahahaha! To the people saying "don't make vacuum universal for pets too its just going to be another mandatory mod"

Well if you're so well of without vacuum already then don't use it!? 

The Two-faced nature of that claim is music to my ears. If you think vacuum isn't necessary then don't use the mod for it use the slot for something else, Its time to make it global for pets/warframes already. Swallow your pride and do the right thing for once.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 hour ago, BlackCoMerc said:

If DE wanted players to make conscious choices about Loadouts, Vitality, Redirection, Steel Fiber, Serration and Multi Shot mods wouldn't exist.

The problem us that DE only know what they DONT want: Progression and loot gathering with sufficient speed and Efficiency to negate plat sales.

Until they can formulate a coherent roadmap for what they DO want, expect more floundering around and throwing stuff at walls Lunaro/Operator style to see what sticks.

Coherent vision for the game is impossible to formulate without proper first-hand gameplay expierience. And I'm not sure DE actually play Warframe very much.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

41 minutes ago, Lemon said:

Hahahaha! To the people saying "don't make vacuum universal for pets too its just going to be another mandatory mod"

Well if you're so well of without vacuum already then don't use it!? 

The Two-faced nature of that claim is music to my ears. If you think vacuum isn't necessary then don't use the mod for it use the slot for something else, Its time to make it global for pets/warframes already. Swallow your pride and do the right thing for once.

Personally, I don't want it to be a mod either. On the last devstream Scott confirmed my suspicion that the game already had inbuilt passive vacuum system with a very short range. At this point it's just a matter of giving people a full-range vacuum on warframes and removing the mod from the game completely. Cause it's not needed. Let people who dislike vacuum turn it off in the menu and be done with the whole issue.

Edited November 4, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[BlackCoMerc]

2 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Personally, I don't want it to be a mod either. On the last devstream Scott confirmed my suspicion that the game already had inbuilt passive vacuum system with a very short range. At this point it's just a matter of giving people a full-range vacuum on warframes and removing the mod from the game completely. Cause it's not needed. Let people who dislike vacuum turn it off in the menu and be done with the whole issue.

And then watch them turn it BACK ON as they realize how even the mini version made their game play much less of a hassle.

[BlackCoMerc]

9 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Coherent vision for the game is impossible to formulate without proper first-hand gameplay expierience. And I'm not sure DE actually play Warframe very much.

You can see examples to prove your point: Frame Reworks.

Saryn is a disaster, her imagined symmetry looking good on paper and ending up a mess in practice. Because DE has no one playing her.

Frost though...he's amazing. Because he is Rebeccas main. So they had someone who knew just what Frost needed.

They need people playing the game. With critical eyes. And they need to LISTEN to those people.

Edited November 4, 2017 by BlackCoMerc

[AperoBeltaTwo]

15 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

And then watch them turn it BACK ON as they realize how even the mini version made their game play much less of a hassle.

I just want them to have an option so they would sh... - I just want people to have an option. I know they won't use it.

12 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

You can see examples to prove your point: Frame Reworks.

Puddle prime. Saryn was comparatively ok - even tho her primary gameplay is a ma***tion simulator.

12 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

They need people playing the game. With critical eyes. And they need to LISTEN to those people.

Unfortunately it's not that simple. There's a number of people actively playing Warframe with, to speak frankly, with a set of garbage opinions. They're perfectly entitled to their garbage opinions but those opinions aren't less garbage because of them being free to have those. The problem is that some of the holders of those garbage opinions are among the "popular" youtuber class and have DE's ear directly - while having day1packs; never actually playing the game; ordering their goons to farm for them and never criticizing anything. Oh, and asking for more gear and quests just because they believe that's what expected for them to ask... I'm not pointing any fingers here.

"Let's face it, I'm so excited!"

Edited November 4, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[zornyan]

1 hour ago, Lemon said:

Hahahaha! To the people saying "don't make vacuum universal for pets too its just going to be another mandatory mod"

Well if you're so well of without vacuum already then don't use it!? 

The Two-faced nature of that claim is music to my ears. If you think vacuum isn't necessary then don't use the mod for it use the slot for something else, Its time to make it global for pets/warframes already. Swallow your pride and do the right thing for once.

I wonder if by DEs stats a lot more people use kavats and kubrows than people on here think.

i see a lot of kubrows and kavats whilst playing, I rarely use sentinels anymore since I don’t care about adding to my alloy plate stockpile anyway.

 

most of my high MR friends don’t use sentinels either, since as above we don’t need the resources and pets are far stronger (and less likely to die with the benefit of revives) than sentinels

[Lemon]

18 minutes ago, zornyan said:

most of my high MR friends don’t use sentinels either, since as above we don’t need the resources and pets are far stronger (and less likely to die with the benefit of revives) than sentinels

Whoa really? Then those high MR boyfriends could keep doing that even after they add in vacuum for pets too! How cool is that! Super sad that you don't forma and potato your sentinels to the point of them being able to easily survive your super hardcore gamer daily Sorties.

But hey when you try to break the world record on survival those Kubrow's sure wil- Oh haha S#&$ never mind looking at the WR holders... turns out they're all using carriers lmao.

Listen kid, i have whipped out my 4 different pets at times for novelty. But that's all they are, novelty. and even if you are unconvinced of my opinion think about it this way; why remove the option for non vets? P-p-please don't be an elitist bully mr.mlg-pro sir.

[Ceryk]

2 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

If DE wanted players to make conscious choices about Loadouts, Vitality, Redirection, Steel Fiber, Serration and Multi Shot mods wouldn't exist.

The problem us that DE only know what they DONT want: Progression and loot gathering with sufficient speed and Efficiency to negate plat sales.

Until they can formulate a coherent roadmap for what they DO want, expect more floundering around and throwing stuff at walls Lunaro/Operator style to see what sticks.

They've said they want to remove a lot of those mods you've listed. They haven't done it because removing them require reworking a lot of things in the game that they either haven't been able to decided what to do about or bigger priorities have arisen that have put those plans lower on the priority list. Personally think Damage 3.0 should be the top priority so we can get rid of the Mandatory Mods, but that's less likely to interest most players over new content and silly things like Umbra frames.

Edited November 4, 2017 by Ceryk

[zornyan]

11 minutes ago, Lemon said:

Whoa really? Then those high MR boyfriends could keep doing that even after they add in vacuum for pets too! How cool is that! Super sad that you don't forma and potato your sentinels to the point of them being able to easily survive your super hardcore gamer daily Sorties.

But hey when you try to break the world record on survival those Kubrow's sure wil- Oh haha S#&$ never mind looking at the WR holders... turns out they're all using carriers lmao.

Listen kid, i have whipped out my 4 different pets at times for novelty. But that's all they are, novelty. and even if you are unconvinced of my opinion think about it this way; why remove the option for non vets? P-p-please don't be an elitist bully mr.mlg-pro sir.

So judging by your childish passive aggressive reply you don’t want a decent discussion on this?

 

well F*** me for having a different opinion eh?

 

listen kiddo, if you had actually read my comment, then you would have seen my point, the vocal minority on the forums does not represent the playerbase, what I said is it’s quite possible DE have the numbers

 

“hey Steve a ton of people on the forum are *@##$ing about vacuum making pets useless”

 

”if that was true why is 68.5% of the population using kavats or kubrows over sentinels?”

 

Can you understand what I’m merely implying ? There is an unknown element to this.

 

i was giving a reason me and my personal friends don’t use sentinels much, like I’ve said before earlier on in the game when you need all those resources? Yes vacuum helps, after that to me (and lots of other people) pets are a better sidekick, I mean a 60% Crit Chance buff is nothing to sniff at is it? 

 

Im giving a different side to the argument rather than “OMGZ DE SUCKS GIV US VACUM OR WE WILL QUITZ”

to me? Pets have much greater survivability, and can offer other benefits to sentinels.

 

what DE does need to do is improve pathing and the AI, as well as buff a few pets, the same could be said for sentinels, Carrier is far more popular because of ammo case being a meta mod, and the niche use some have needs to be tweaked.

[Lemon]

1 hour ago, zornyan said:

I was giving a reason me and my personal friends don’t use sentinels much, like I’ve said before earlier on in the game when you need all those resources? Yes vacuum helps, after that to me (and lots of other people) pets are a better sidekick, I mean a 60% Crit Chance buff is nothing to sniff at is it? 

Sorry if i come off as passive aggressive but i'm tired of having to receive these kinds of condescending comments from people who are literally making things up. Yes the statistics is an unknown, the last time they actually checked though (ca2016?)the actual distribution was 76% of people using ONLY carrier at the time. Meaning 1/4 of the community either didnt have pets/carriers or were using pets for fun. So easily LESS than 1/4 of the community was actually using pets.

[Symmetrion]

On 10/28/2017 at 4:46 PM, TotallyLagging said:

i still don't quite understand how some people dislike vacuum so much...

 

Because some people are just inherently argumentative. Vacuum is a convenience. It's certainly not "necessary", but it is incredibly handy. I've played both with and without, and my preference is so far into the "with" side that I simply will not play without it anymore. I don't even pick up Ayatan Stars half the time because it annoys me to have to stop everything I'm doing to run over and pick it up.

Vacuum is just too handy. It's not handy in a game-breaking way. You could definitely get by without it, but not having it doesn't add a single benefit. Not having it is simply removing a feature. It's like taking the headphone jack off a phone. It doesn't give anything; it only takes away. I'm sorry, but there's nothing immersive about that.

Warframe is too fast-paced and drops too plentiful to ignore the convenience of vacuum. I admit I'm curious about non-sentinel pets, but end up not using them for this specific reason. My poor kubrow that I got way back when they were first released is still sitting in a stasis chamber. I just rediscovered her last night after completely forgetting her for a year or two.

There have been lots of arguments against just making the loot radius bigger, but none of them make any kind of game-enhancing sense. It's just cantankerous for its own sake, and I think it's safe to say majority opinion agrees with me.

[DeltaPangaea]

When my Sentinel died last mission, I figured I'd test what the range of this vacuum that we allegedly got is.

It's not three meters. It's like two meters at most.

Warframe either does not know what a meter is, or everything is much smaller than it appears.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

 Warframe will never have a classic manual loot pickup system as long as there are sentinels in the game. At this point lack of UV is just making pets less compelling of a choice. The mentality Scott showed on dev stream is of considering vacuum a "variety choice". It's not a variety choice. Vacuum is such a huge quality of life bonus for so many people, that they don't even consider pets as a viable option, not wanting to lose it. 

 It's not a question if vacuum should or shouldn't be in the game. We're long past that point.
 At this point not having UV only locks certain content behind forced Quality of Life sacrifices.

Edited November 4, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[MJ12]

1 hour ago, DeltaPangaea said:

When my Sentinel died last mission, I figured I'd test what the range of this vacuum that we allegedly got is.

It's not three meters. It's like two meters at most.

Warframe either does not know what a meter is, or everything is much smaller than it appears.

That's because the radius is projected from the warframe's center of hitbox, not the warframe's feet. This isn't as noticeable with the ~12m radius of Vacuum on Sentinels because the radius is so large that the difference between 'ground level' and 'sentinel height' is relatively negligible but when dealing with a smaller radius it absolutely does have a significant effect.

46 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 Warframe will never have a classic manual loot pickup system as long as there are sentinels in the game. At this point lack of UV is just making pets less compelling of a choice. The mentality Scott showed on dev stream is of considering vacuum a "variety choice". It's not a variety choice. Vacuum is such a huge quality of life bonus for so many people, that they don't even consider pets as a viable option, not wanting to lose it. 

 It's not a question if vacuum should or shouldn't be in the game. We're long past that point.
 At this point not having UV only locks certain content behind forced Quality of Life sacrifices.

The problem is that it's easy to ape mechanics from other games, without understanding why those mechanics are beneficial and what they're intended for.

Like, ammo limits in Warframe are the best example of it. You have maximum ammo numbers for your guns... which originally existed to ensure that players would switch weapons and use certain weapons in certain levels. Like Doom had levels where it only gave you ammo for certain guns, encouraging you to use those weapons instead of your arsenal of like, a half-dozen.Tactical shooters like CoD give you ammo limits so that you occasionally need to switch to different weapons instead of just using the one you start off with forever, and limiting 'power weapons' so that they can't infinitely dominate the game.

In Warframe, ammo limits' practical effect is solely to make a lack of vacuum even more annoying. They don't encourage you to switch weapons (because weapons switch speed is very slow). They don't create any interesting gameplay (because ammunition is dropped randomly, rather than something you specifically hunt down). It's just... there, because a shooter needed to have limited ammunition back in 2013 when Warframe's closed beta first came out, before Overwatch demonstrated that a shooter didn't need limited ammunition (instead, reload times provided the balance ammunition did, at much less annoyance).

Edited November 4, 2017 by MJ12

[DeltaPangaea]

31 minutes ago, MJ12 said:

In Warframe, ammo limits' practical effect is solely to make a lack of vacuum even more annoying. They don't encourage you to switch weapons (because weapons switch speed is very slow). They don't create any interesting gameplay (because ammunition is dropped randomly, rather than something you specifically hunt down). It's just... there, because a shooter needed to have limited ammunition back in 2013 when Warframe's closed beta first came out, before Overwatch demonstrated that a shooter didn't need limited ammunition (instead, reload times provided the balance ammunition did, at much less annoyance).

Yeah, thinking on it now, there isn't really a need to have ammunition. You could make an argument for conclave, since ammo is in specific places and you'll generally have to make an actual decision to go get some, but in normal gameplay, it mostly just results in 'this gun is good but you need to mod it in a very specific way or else you'll run out of ammo for it instantly'

Like I love my wrath vipers, but trying to do anything with them without pistol ammo mutation is an exercise in futility. And then for other weapons, sometimes you run out, sometimes you don't. Because RNG. Same issue with power-usage. Sometimes you get to use them, sometimes you don't, because RNG. This is why people liked old Zenurik and why Energy Siphon is so popular. Because people don't like the RNG deciding if they're allowed to interact with a specific element of the core gameplay.

[MirageKnight]

3 hours ago, Lemon said:

Whoa really? Then those high MR boyfriends could keep doing that even after they add in vacuum for pets too! How cool is that! Super sad that you don't forma and potato your sentinels to the point of them being able to easily survive your super hardcore gamer daily Sorties.

But hey when you try to break the world record on survival those Kubrow's sure wil- Oh haha S#&$ never mind looking at the WR holders... turns out they're all using carriers lmao.

Listen kid, i have whipped out my 4 different pets at times for novelty. But that's all they are, novelty. and even if you are unconvinced of my opinion think about it this way; why remove the option for non vets? P-p-please don't be an elitist bully mr.mlg-pro sir.

There's no reason for the disrespectful, presumptuous, and belittling attitude. The player you responded to was being polite and sincere.

3 hours ago, Lemon said:

Sorry if i come off as passive aggressive but i'm tired of having to receive these kinds of condescending comments from people who are literally making things up. 

Then you shouldn't assume that everyone is like that. When you assume too much about people, it generally makes you look like an *** when you think someone else is...and you wind up being wrong about them. Instead, give people the benefit of the doubt. Chill mate. Life's too short.

On topic, I'm all in favor of innate 6m Vaccum centered on our Warframes, with an exilus augment mod that extends the range of that innate Vacuum to 12m. This naturally leaves us free to use whatever pets and sentinels we want and not have to worry about picking up loot and resources as much and concentrate more on actually playing Warframe.

 

 

[TheBrsrkr]

5 hours ago, zornyan said:

Listen kiddo, if you had actually read my comment, then you would have seen my point, the vocal minority on the forums does not represent the playerbase, what I said is it’s quite possible DE have the numbers

Yes they do, as does any forum. The forum represents the amount of people that care about the game past the actual game. Those not on the forum simply don't care about  the day to day discussions and changes thereof that result. They just keep playing. Realistically, how many people do you think have simply dropped Warframe and left because of any change in the forums? Comparatively little to both the size of the forum and the size of the game. 

 

It's kind of like voting. The government won't know what you want if you don't tell them what you want. Therefore those that tell them what they want seem more important than the layman farmer that's going to farm whether or not they do anything. Is he being represented? No, but it's his fault that he isn't. 

 

 

Again, my problem is not giving the pets vacuum. I am presenting my opinion on why giving them vacuum is more of a hassle than just slapping the mod on them and calling it a day, and why Vacuum does not really affect pet diversity as much as some here say, rather than all the other issues, of which there are many, with living pets in general. 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 hour ago, MirageKnight said:

On topic, I'm all in favor of innate 6m Vaccum centered on our Warframes, with an exilus augment mod that extends the range of that innate Vacuum to 12m. This naturally leaves us free to use whatever pets and sentinels we want and not have to worry about picking up loot and resources as much and concentrate more on actually playing Warframe.

God, why do you want to have your vacuum cut off like that? It won't be much different than manual pickups. You can't use parcour with 6 meter vacuum. You can't move freely. And you're losing so much area of coverage that it will never be enough for open world areas. Don't try to "balance" it for DE. It's their job, not yours. If they really wanted a proper loot pickup system in the game, they shouldn't have added vacuum in the first place. Now it's too late and the game has evolved past the point where manual pickups are even a viable gameplay mechanic - now it's just as broken and outdated as channeling.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

16 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Again, my problem is not giving the pets vacuum. I am presenting my opinion on why giving them vacuum is more of a hassle than just slapping the mod on them and calling it a day, and why Vacuum does not really affect pet diversity as much as some here say, rather than all the other issues, of which there are many, with living pets in general. 

Vacuum is one thing that affects companion diversity that could be fixed tomorrow. Ai and other issues can't be fixed as easily as vacuum. That's why this thread is about UV first. The rest of the problems will only have a chance of being fixed if people would start playing pets more often. UV can allow for that. Without UV there isn't a single chance in hell that pets' AI would be fixed anytime soon (and abilities revisited).

There are some semi-decent pets. Not all of them are bad, I tell you. Altho, most of those semi-decent pets aren't worth using without vacuum. But with universal vacuum it doesn't really matter which companion you take into the mission. SO you would be free to choose whatever you want,

Edited November 5, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[MirageKnight]

1 hour ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

God, why do you want to have your vacuum cut off like that? It won't be much different than manual pickups. You can't use parcour with 6 meter vacuum. You can't move freely. And you're losing so much area of coverage that it will never be enough for open world areas. Don't try to "balance" it for DE. It's their job, not yours. If they really wanted a proper loot pickup system in the game, they shouldn't have added vacuum in the first place. Now it's too late and the game has evolved past the point where manual pickups are even a viable gameplay mechanic - now it's just as broken and outdated as channeling.

Relax...I was only throwing a conservative suggestion and an idea out there to keep the discussion going...not telling DE what to do.

Also, why would you use parkour more than 50% of the time anyway? I know Warframe is a fast paced game and all, but running around bouncing off walls with bullet jumps almost all the time sounds a bit much. Ninjas are also about slipping quietly (and sometimes slowly if needed) into areas to complete their tasks. Also, from what I've heard, not everyone wants to run around in PoE style landscapes all the time. And nothing's too late if you put your mind to it.

Not meaning to be condescending or belittling here at all, but I think you really need to calm down a bit and take some deep breaths...you seem really agitated about all this.