Solving the One Hit Kill Issue

[phoenix1992]

 

27 minutes ago, KuraiWolf2014 said:

You just like being a snarky git don't you? These are not my opinions, they ARE facts. It is fact, that MOST frames and MOST builds will not survive very long in high level missions as the scaling is broken to the point where only tanks can actually survive more than 1 shot. And even then they only take like 2 shots at max. Zephyr can't survive that kind of damage without assistance, so I don't know what you are on about. I should know, as I have been running Zephyr primarily for about the past year. What BS you are spreading is the equivalent of some guy who thinks he knows everything about high level play despite relying on the same old tactic of "DR=Win". It is not all about just resisting a lot of damage. Tank or not, high DR means nothing late game when everything can grind your frame into dust faster than your computer can render how badly your butt got kicked. It takes about 16ms to render a single frame at 60fps or about 6.9, let's call it 7, to render at 144fps (the same as my monitor's refresh rate) and 33ms at 30fps. At high levels, you can take a lethal amount of damage all within the span of about 2ms if you come face to face with these "scaled into oblivion" enemies. So that means it takes longer for your PC to render the aftermath of a high level ROFLstomp than for said stomp to actually happen. Also, just because this game is co op centered, doesn't mean we should be forced to go co op. I personally like to play solo. There is nothing wrong with that is there? Shouldn't I be allowed to kick back in solo with a squishy frame and have some fun? And preparation, map awareness and experience have nothing to do with DR. It is more like damage avoidance. Avoid getting hit by using cover and movement effectively, and you will survive. Except in the situation where you are surrounded by 100% accurate enemies that do way too much damage for their rank so when you peek out of cover for even a moment, you immediately eat lead and die. The insane accuracy, combined with the BS damage, leads to more death than you can shake a stick at.

No mate, those are your OPINIONS as long as you don't prove a fact with examples of what happens when due to what in WHAT CONTEXT. In this topic the only context you have been showing is assuming, that everyone speaks with the same knowledge, information and situation.
Which is not the case.

In the context of "People don't use vitality and DR", you went off in a topic about Mods, something that surprised me because no one ever questioned that majority of the frames do not benefit from DR mods. 

In the context of "end game" you are failing to disclosure the situation you are speaking off. For some people the only end game is t3 sorties, for others it is Mot, for third type it is some other *totally made up term for Warframe*.

But fine let's toss the full information considering DR in the game, when it how it fails and why "true end game users" (in the context of over a hour in Mot) do not use DR.

Warframe Armor is the first and most common thing people think of.
Ability DR, which came in many shapes or forms.
Block Value DR.

In the context of those 3, one can safely go between 60 and 90 minutes of Mot. Which is in the range of .... 100-150? The enemy level ramp up after 60 minutes is obscenely fast.

With that in mind, the 5(?) end game content modes available - T3 Sortie, Kuva Flood, Nightmare Trials, Mot and Index - you can and will survive most one shots if you are using DR. The only exceptions of that are as follow :

1. Status effect
2. The special projectile attacks from Nox Units and such
3. Mechanics that were never meant to be face tanked (mostly Sortie bosses and Jugger).

If you want to make a case in which one needs to survive within level 150+ enemy territories for a prolonged time, without flat out cheesing (invisibility and invulnerability), do disclose that information before hand.

PS: The test i did with Zephyr was with a Sheev, just in spite of the fact that I was pretty sure that you are not aware of block values. Daggers have the worst DR rating.

Edited November 5, 2017 by phoenix1992

[Ardhanarishvara]

7 minutes ago, KuraiWolf2014 said:

Also, just because this game is co op centered, doesn't mean we should be forced to go co op. I personally like to play solo. There is nothing wrong with that is there? Shouldn't I be allowed to kick back in solo with a squishy frame and have some fun?

Oh, sure. There's plenty of non-challenging content on Venus for you. Just don't expect the whole game to be geared towards you. It's like complaining that you have to work in a team in Team Fortress 2. Or that some classes are just not as effective as others when going off on your own. Granted that's a PvP game but it's not like that completely negates the point - some content is designed for team play. That's simply the way it's going to be. If you want to play a squishy 'frame in high level content, then make sure to either use a meta-strategy that ensures ease of play, an unconventional build that increases your chances of survival... or you can simply enter into a team that can make your squishy 'frame... less so.

Example: Gara + Oberon can make for a pretty terrifying pair in team play. My Oberon gives something like 513 armour, I believe? Let's say you brought Mag along. You're jumping from 17.8% inherent damage reduction on health to something like 65% damage reduction on health, plus the added ehp/s added from a renewal rate of 103, plus essentially a free life with 5s invulnerability with 90s cooldown after using it. How do you think Gara's potentially minute-long 90% damage reduction across both shields and health scales into that? Mag's ability to restore shields with a quick cast of Polarize? The ability to wait out large portions of your free life cooldown in the Squatzone with your Operator with no threat to your life?

Oh, but removing the threat is possibly the most effective form of damage reduction/avoidance. Let's pair all of that with, let's say... Maybe Oberon brought Unairu for some shenanigans, and even if you're downed, you've got over a minute of bleedout time and he decides to use HIS Operator Squatzone to revive you, keeping you invisible with an additional 80% damage reduction on top of everything else within a 25m radius, giving you ample time and range to safely find a new angle to work with to apply CC.

And this is not even mentioning the ludicrous synergy between Oberon's Reckoning and Fracturing Crush+Polarize, or the massive damage bonuses of Gara's 2 and 4, or her cc when she pairs 3 and 4.

Damage reduction alone might not be much, but stack enough of it, and the only content that'll be out of your reach is level 7300 enemies, at which point pure cc is the way to go, but I have a better question... why are you even there to begin with? That's pure bragging rights territory. You couldn't even argue that it's a game anymore at that point, more sport to compete with other players at having higher numbers.

[Ardhanarishvara]

12 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

This and 

This don't mean jack !@#$ while in the Plains.  Trust me on this.  I know this for a fact.  Titania is pretty much my second most used frame after Ivara. 

Once you get past T3 Bounty level enemies, their accuracy and range go through the roof.  

Then don't use it in the plains. Or make sure to CC/kill the stuff at range before you fly in. Or stay low to the ground to minimize enemies noticing you until you swoop in. Everything shines more or less in different situations. Expecting all player-owned content to be able to contend with all oppositional content is a misled sentiment, I feel.

I still feel a little weird that Aviator doesn't apply to Razorwing.

[phoenix1992]

7 minutes ago, Ardhanarishvara said:

Then don't use it in the plains. Or make sure to CC/kill the stuff at range before you fly in. Or stay low to the ground to minimize enemies noticing you until you swoop in. Everything shines more or less in different situations. Expecting all player-owned content to be able to contend with all oppositional content is a misled sentiment, I feel.

I still feel a little weird that Aviator doesn't apply to Razorwing.

They may change that (like with Inaros and bleed out) if enough people make noise out of it.

[Ardhanarishvara]

I was mentioning Oberon + Gara earlier. But there was something new I considered... I know that abilities like Iron Skin and Snow Globe scale off armour modifiers. So I was thinking, just how tanky can someone with Splinterstorm and Safeguarding Halo augmented by Iron Renewal be made to be? Because surely Splinterstorm applies to the health from Safeguarding Halo, which scales off of Iron Renewal... I should do some testing later tonight.

[DatDarkOne]

14 minutes ago, Ardhanarishvara said:

Then don't use it in the plains. Or make sure to CC/kill the stuff at range before you fly in. Or stay low to the ground to minimize enemies noticing you until you swoop in. Everything shines more or less in different situations. Expecting all player-owned content to be able to contend with all oppositional content is a misled sentiment, I feel.

I still feel a little weird that Aviator doesn't apply to Razorwing.

I think you as well as some others seem to be missing a very relevant issue in regards to all this.  Enemies in the Plains are able to spot you from much greater distances than 100m+.  That's even more than my maxed Enemy Radar build Ivara can detect.  Add in that these same enemies are quickly scaling in both accuracy and damage making one-shot kill situations happen much more at the lvl 50+ enemy range.  That's enemies that you have no idea are about to ruin your world before you even have any hint that they are there.  Now, don't you think there might be a slight problem with that?  

Titania is only my second most used frame, but she is still very far away from my main, Ivara.  That I happen to main a frame that is well suited for PoE is just a bonus for me.  This isn't something that can be said for others.  Yes, I can easily avoid using Titania and avoid all the issues I stated above.  That doesn't mean that's the case for everyone else.  

Edited November 5, 2017 by DatDarkOne
grammar

[Ardhanarishvara]

58 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

I think you as well as some others seem to be missing a very relevant issue in regards to all this.  Enemies in the Plains are able to spot you from much greater distances than 100m+.  That's even more than my maxed Enemy Radar build Ivara can detect.  Add in that these same enemies are quickly scaling in both accuracy and damage making one-shot kill situations happen much more at the lvl 50+ enemy range.  That's enemies that you have no idea are about to ruin your world before you even have any hint that they are there.  Now, don't you think there might be a slight problem with that?  

Titania is only my second most used frame, but she is still very far away from my main, Ivara.  That I happen to main a frame that is well suited for PoE is just a bonus for me.  This isn't something that can be said for others.  Yes, I can easily avoid using Titania and avoid all the issues I stated above.  That doesn't mean that's the case for everyone else.  

I've soloed t5 bounties with Titania without much issue. It's typically an issue of taking cover or using your CC effectively... or building for survivability. This is what I used.

Titania: (Razorwing build.)
Growing Power + Streamlined Form (swapping from Dex Pixia to Diwata for quick burst heals)

Quick Thinking + Rage + Primed Flow + Vitality
Fleeting Expertise (R3) + Streamline + Primed Continuity + Energy Conversion

Vaykor Hek (Rad+Viral)
Primed Point Blank + Hell's Chamber Shotgun Spazz + Frail Momentum
Blaze + Shell Shock + Toxic Barrage + Chilling Reload

Though with that new multishot mod for primaries, Vigilante Armaments, I might see how it fares replacing Frail Momentum in terms of damage output. Not having to reload as often might be nice if I can get similar damage outputs from +60% multishot, the loss of a -15% damage reduction, and a 5% Separated Crit.

Galatine Prime
Condition Overload, Primed Pressure Point, Primed Fury, Primed Reach
Life Strike, Augur Strike, Heat Mod, Electric Mod

Against an enemy that somehow survived being shot at, it takes a decent chunk of damage out. Mostly used for regaining life. Can be used to block for DR on way to targeted enemy if absolutely necessary. I typically run Madurai with Titania but it may be beneficial to run Zenurik in this instance.

--

Ultimately, enemies can only know they're there if you don't kill them all. Or if you let them see you. Because enemies aren't omnipresent, nor are they omniscient. They're only as smart as their AI allows, and they can only be aware of your last known position, what direction they you were going, or your current position if you let them see you. Kill enough of them and stay out of sight long enough, hack a console to get rid of alert, and most of the time you shouldn't have issues. T5 Plains typically only sticks between Lv50 and Lv65 enemies, which this is more than enough for. Keep an eye on the towers for ballistas/heavy gunners and the ground for turrets.

Edited November 5, 2017 by Ardhanarishvara
Grammar!

[DatDarkOne]

20 minutes ago, Ardhanarishvara said:

T5 Plains typically only sticks between Lv50 and Lv65 enemies

You seem to have left out or forgotten the lvl 80-100 eximus.  But either way, that doesn't address the issue below.  

1 hour ago, DatDarkOne said:

That's enemies that you have no idea are about to ruin your world before you even have any hint that they are there.  Now, don't you think there might be a slight problem with that?

1 hour ago, DatDarkOne said:

  Yes, I can easily avoid using Titania and avoid all the issues I stated above.  That doesn't mean that's the case for everyone else.  

Just because I've found ways to get around those issues that is satisfying for me (or that you have done the same) doesn't erase that there is an issue that might need looking into and tweaked.  

[(XBOX)Avant Solace]

My 2 cents: Everything (aside from Enemy Health) should stop scaling at about level 40 or 50. Playing post-Sedna void missions feel like a good mix between challenge and enjoyment. If everything stopped scaling around that point I feel people would stop relying so much on niche builds and actually play the game however they like at higher levels.

[Ardhanarishvara]

3 minutes ago, (Xbox One)alchemPyro said:

My 2 cents: Everything (aside from Enemy Health) should stop scaling at about level 40 or 50. Playing post-Sedna void missions feel like a good mix between challenge and enjoyment. If everything stopped scaling around that point I feel people would stop relying so much on niche builds and actually play the game however they like at higher levels.

Personally, around 40-50 is mid-tier enemy for me. I'd say around 60-80 is high, and 100 is elite. That is primarily the point where things start spilling over, so it feels like a good place to stop armour scaling. At least for Heavies. Maybe around 160-200 for light units.

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

12 minutes ago, Ardhanarishvara said:

Personally, around 40-50 is mid-tier enemy for me. I'd say around 60-80 is high, and 100 is elite. That is primarily the point where things start spilling over, so it feels like a good place to stop armour scaling. At least for Heavies. Maybe around 160-200 for light units.

i agree totaly with all of this

also if someone is getting ne shot then thye r doing somethign wrong

also to all the people complaining about scaling in endless missions, whats the point of a 4 hour run in 1 mission? the game literally is trying to kick u out at that point

i find level 120 to be where i call it kinda hard, where u acculy have to use skill to survive the heavy gunners and bombards and if endless didnt scale past that, u could just be there FOREVER 

Edited November 5, 2017 by (PS4)Spider_Enigma

[BlackCoMerc]

3 hours ago, Ardhanarishvara said:

Absolutely none of what I listed is RNG. At all. Pox/Torid will remove armour completely within the span of 3 seconds, even from a 135 Kuva Napalm. Even work for groups and can also pair with Blast CC. Dual Blade ground finishers doing slash procs is not RNG. Carving Mantis doing slash procs is not RNG. With the changes to melee combo duration that Naramon 2.0 brings to the table, there are now dozens of weapons that can hit darn near 100% status chance very easily through use of Drifting Contact + Weeping Wounds, like Sarpa for example that hits like 95% at 3.5x combo multiplier with only toxin/cold dual stat mods, or Lesion that hits it easily by 3x with ONLY a cold dual stat. And that's only if you don't bother with using Naramon Dashes to open the enemy up to finishers in the first place. Sarpa WILL cause Blast Procs within a certain range if you use the charge attack, which doesn't even require that you specifically equip melee, the very same charge attack that can cause up to five separate procs at 3.5x multiplier of slash and whatever else you slap on. I even like to run Shattering Impact with it so it's sapping +30 base armour each time on top of the blast stunlocking. Zakti or Octantis causing finisher states is not RNG. Oberon slapping off all armour in two Reckonings is not RNG. Frost deleting all armour for a significant period of time with only one Avalanche is not RNG.

It only becomes 'maybe' if you're not familiar with the systems inherent. I don't suggest 'maybe' solutions.

Procs are a maybe on most weapons. That was what I was referring to. Sorry, my time was limited when I was posting last. 

I am honestly gleaning some really good, solid information from your posts regarding Mod Combos. Thanks for that, I'm going to look into these.

[KuraiWolf2014]

6 hours ago, Ardhanarishvara said:

Personally, around 40-50 is mid-tier enemy for me. I'd say around 60-80 is high, and 100 is elite. That is primarily the point where things start spilling over, so it feels like a good place to stop armour scaling. At least for Heavies. Maybe around 160-200 for light units.

Keyword "Personally". What YOU experience means almost nothing for other people. Just because YOU think that 40-50 is mid tier DOESN'T mean it is that way for everyone. Your word is not law.

[KuraiWolf2014]

7 hours ago, phoenix1992 said:

 

No mate, those are your OPINIONS as long as you don't prove a fact with examples of what happens when due to what in WHAT CONTEXT. In this topic the only context you have been showing is assuming, that everyone speaks with the same knowledge, information and situation.
Which is not the case.

In the context of "People don't use vitality and DR", you went off in a topic about Mods, something that surprised me because no one ever questioned that majority of the frames do not benefit from DR mods. 

In the context of "end game" you are failing to disclosure the situation you are speaking off. For some people the only end game is t3 sorties, for others it is Mot, for third type it is some other *totally made up term for Warframe*.

But fine let's toss the full information considering DR in the game, when it how it fails and why "true end game users" (in the context of over a hour in Mot) do not use DR.

Warframe Armor is the first and most common thing people think of.
Ability DR, which came in many shapes or forms.
Block Value DR.

In the context of those 3, one can safely go between 60 and 90 minutes of Mot. Which is in the range of .... 100-150? The enemy level ramp up after 60 minutes is obscenely fast.

With that in mind, the 5(?) end game content modes available - T3 Sortie, Kuva Flood, Nightmare Trials, Mot and Index - you can and will survive most one shots if you are using DR. The only exceptions of that are as follow :

1. Status effect
2. The special projectile attacks from Nox Units and such
3. Mechanics that were never meant to be face tanked (mostly Sortie bosses and Jugger).

If you want to make a case in which one needs to survive within level 150+ enemy territories for a prolonged time, without flat out cheesing (invisibility and invulnerability), do disclose that information before hand.

PS: The test i did with Zephyr was with a Sheev, just in spite of the fact that I was pretty sure that you are not aware of block values. Daggers have the worst DR rating.

I am done dealing with you. You like to try to discredit everything I am saying with BS that only suits YOUR viewpoint. You act like there is no issue, and that we are just some bunch of whiny idiots. You fail to realize your own stuck up "git gud" attitude towards us all. Until you decide that maybe, just maybe, there might actually be an issue. I am through with replying to you. At this point, you are just sounding like a troll.

Edited November 6, 2017 by KuraiWolf2014

[BlackCoMerc]

14 hours ago, Ardhanarishvara said:

Personally, around 40-50 is mid-tier enemy for me. I'd say around 60-80 is high, and 100 is elite. That is primarily the point where things start spilling over, so it feels like a good place to stop armour scaling. At least for Heavies. Maybe around 160-200 for light units.

Level 40-50 might feel like midtier on tightly designed maps with walls and corridors.

Not so much on PoE, where that level 40-50 can snipe a lot of frame and kill in one hit without the player ever knowing they were there or having had a chance to avoid the damage.

Moreover...I have no issue with some mid and high level, dangerous enemies existing. That's fine.

I just dont think EVERY SINGLE MOB needs to continue to scale up game wide. Crewmen are crewmen. Lancers are Lancers. These are Grunts. Bog standard troopers. Basically, guys like Butcher, Hyekka Master, Scorpion, Sniper, Rail Moa, Crewmen, Lancer, Moa and even Heavy Gunners and possibly Bombards are generic storm troopers. Its Nox, Red Crewmen, Proxies and such that are mini bosses. Arguably, Comba and Scramba as well, poorly designed as they are right now, with their lack of an area indicator for their auras.

So fine. Continue leveling mini bosses. Scale them up. Heck, make them MORE dangerous than they are now. But stop scaling up everything else. Maybe something like:

Butcher, Scorpion, Lancer, Hyekka Master and Animals, Crewmen, Moa: Lvl 1-15

Rail Moa, Sniper, Large Robot, Heavy Gunner: Level 1-25

Bombard, Napalm, Red Crewman, Proxies: Scale all the way

Health: Scale to the enemy's cap

Armor: Cap scaling around level 40 (subject to testing). Too high, and enemies just become tedious and obnoxious.

Accuracy: Stop scaling this up. Give ALL enemies real projectiles so our agility matters.

Using a system like this will eliminate a lot of what SEEMS like one hit kills, but are in fact the "death of a thousand cuts" that often takes place in 0.2 seconds from 25-50 level 40+ enemies with slash and puncture procs at the same time. 

Moreover, making shields ACTUALLY FUNCTION LIKE SHIELDS would help prevent this. If damage couldn't penetrate a shield, you could actually make Slash and Puncture procs more threatening, because tactical retreats to cover while shields are down would become a viable choice. As it is now, though, Slash, Puncture and Toxic procs are ridiculous at higher levels. We are dying to physical damage from weapons WHILE OUR SHIELDS ARE UP. So...why do we have shields, again?

I would love to see DE just test something like this. Maybe start with just PoE. Or PoE and a couple of normal tiles for compare and contrast. Let players know you have done it, and encourage them to play on these tiles, then compare to other tiles where normal scaling remains intact. Get an idea for how it FEELS to players.

Because in the end, it doesnt matter where the OHK is coming from. Whether its one level 60+ Sniper hitting your Titania with 100% accuracy despite flight mode, or 50 Level 50= enemies and procs hitting within 0.2 seconds, it still FEELS like a OHK. 

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

48 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Level 40-50 might feel like midtier on tightly designed maps with walls and corridors.

Not so much on PoE, where that level 40-50 can snipe a lot of frame and kill in one hit without the player ever knowing they were there or having had a chance to avoid the damage.

Moreover...I have no issue with some mid and high level, dangerous enemies existing. That's fine.

I just dont think EVERY SINGLE MOB needs to continue to scale up game wide. Crewmen are crewmen. Lancers are Lancers. These are Grunts. Bog standard troopers. Basically, guys like Butcher, Hyekka Master, Scorpion, Sniper, Rail Moa, Crewmen, Lancer, Moa and even Heavy Gunners and possibly Bombards are generic storm troopers. Its Nox, Red Crewmen, Proxies and such that are mini bosses. Arguably, Comba and Scramba as well, poorly designed as they are right now, with their lack of an area indicator for their auras.

So fine. Continue leveling mini bosses. Scale them up. Heck, make them MORE dangerous than they are now. But stop scaling up everything else. Maybe something like:

Butcher, Scorpion, Lancer, Hyekka Master and Animals, Crewmen, Moa: Lvl 1-15

Rail Moa, Sniper, Large Robot, Heavy Gunner: Level 1-25

Bombard, Napalm, Red Crewman, Proxies: Scale all the way

Health: Scale to the enemy's cap

Armor: Cap scaling around level 40 (subject to testing). Too high, and enemies just become tedious and obnoxious.

Accuracy: Stop scaling this up. Give ALL enemies real projectiles so our agility matters.

Using a system like this will eliminate a lot of what SEEMS like one hit kills, but are in fact the "death of a thousand cuts" that often takes place in 0.2 seconds from 25-50 level 40+ enemies with slash and puncture procs at the same time. 

Moreover, making shields ACTUALLY FUNCTION LIKE SHIELDS would help prevent this. If damage couldn't penetrate a shield, you could actually make Slash and Puncture procs more threatening, because tactical retreats to cover while shields are down would become a viable choice. As it is now, though, Slash, Puncture and Toxic procs are ridiculous at higher levels. We are dying to physical damage from weapons WHILE OUR SHIELDS ARE UP. So...why do we have shields, again?

I would love to see DE just test something like this. Maybe start with just PoE. Or PoE and a couple of normal tiles for compare and contrast. Let players know you have done it, and encourage them to play on these tiles, then compare to other tiles where normal scaling remains intact. Get an idea for how it FEELS to players.

Because in the end, it doesnt matter where the OHK is coming from. Whether its one level 60+ Sniper hitting your Titania with 100% accuracy despite flight mode, or 50 Level 50= enemies and procs hitting within 0.2 seconds, it still FEELS like a OHK. 

I feel Health/Armor/Shields could scale infinitely and we would still be fine. As has been said before, we have plenty of ways to either reduce or ignore armor and shields, and we do enough damage that even the highest health values aren't a problem after the armor is removed/ignored.

And while giving all enemies projectiles sounds great, there is still the problem of scale. If I have 5 heavy gunners and a bunch of lancers/elite lances shooting at me, that will lag my client immensely. Simply capping the accuracy at a certain point (I think level 20 enemies have a decent accuracy/range for this purpose). Also, I think Status Chance scales on enemies. If it does, that needs to stop, period. Have them have a base status chance that never changes. And if AoE scales at all, same treatment. Our AoE don't grow in size throughout the mission, so why would theirs?

Also, I'm pretty sure DE would want to put Hyekka/Drak Masters and Sniper Crewmen in group 2, so that they actually seem like a threat instead of a joke.

And I think we should have a unique health/shield/armor type just for warframes. As it is right now, a high-puncture weapon does more to a frame with 300/300/15 stats than it does to one with 300/300/0 stats. Which definitely shouldn't be the case.

Edited November 6, 2017 by -AoN-CanoLathra-

[BlackCoMerc]

Just now, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

I feel Health/Armor/Shields could scale infinitely and we would still be fine. As has been said before, we have plenty of ways to either reduce or ignore armor and shields, and we do enough damage that even the highest health values aren't a problem after the armor is removed/ignored.

And while giving all enemies projectiles sounds great, there is still the problem of scale. If I have 5 heavy gunners and a bunch of lancers/elite lances shooting at me, that will lag my client immensely. Simply capping the accuracy at a certain point (I think level 20 enemies have a decent accuracy/range for this purpose). Also, I think Status Chance scales on enemies. If it does, that needs to stop, period. Have them have a base status chance that never changes. And if AoE scales at all, same treatment. Our AoE don't grow in size throughout the mission, so why would theirs?

Also, I'm pretty sure DE would want to put Hyekka/Drak Masters and Sniper Crewmen in group 2, so that they actually seem like a threat instead of a joke.

The problem with a lot of the "ways around" armor scaling is that it forces players to run the same weapons at higher levels for every single mission. You get a stale meta, lots of complaints, months spent on buff/nerf/test/nerf/test/buff cycles...all wasted time. If scaling had a reasonable cap for armor and shields, then health could be allowed to scale up without much issue.

About Projectiles: Someone did mention lag. And I know thats a technical limitation due to Limbo's abilities. There is, realistically speaking, a cap on the number of projectiles the engine and players systems can handle. So yeah...I would seriously consider a hard cap on accuracy as a substitute...but then, I would also consider a hard look at just how many enemies you NEED on screen at once, and how you might tweak that in the name of replacing some weapons with projectile versions. Not all...certainly not Heavy Gunner Gorgons...but some.

Status/AoE: Gods yes, Status Chance - and the damage it deals - need a cap. And not a very high one, considering A LOT of hitscan weapons deal status procs reliably. Meanwhile, ALL Draining Auras (energy and health) need to be removed from the game. And grappling hooks either need fixed or removed. Either the hooks MUST Follow the path of the arm that launched them...or remove them completely. It does not take a programmer to look at them and plainly SEE they are BROKEN from a technical standpoint. 

Hyekka/Drakk Master: Drakk isnt so bad. Hyekka Master, on the other hand...is a mess. He wears a tank top...and has armor like a Bombard. He summons animals...and then sprays whole areas with Fire. This enemy design is so nonsensical its laughable. He exists as an example of how NOT to design enemies. 

First, Hyekka: NO Animal Trainer is going to invest time in training combat ready animals...and then spray areas with fire. Its absurdly laughable design. Second, armor rating. Bombards, Gunners, Napalms and Nox LOOK like heavily armored threats. Their visual design SCREAMS armor, so you know what to expect fighthing them.

Hyekka Master...doesnt. The unit LOOKS less armor than a Scorpion, so you (rightly) expect a one shot pushover of a unit...And you get a tank top with the armor rating of a Bombard. That is, inarguably and objectively, poor enemy design, and it needs to be fixed. Hyekka Master should wear armor like the Drakk Master does, identifying it as an armored animal trainer, and should use a weapon either that it throwable or a pistol or whip. 

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

5 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

And you get a tank top with the armor rating of a Bombard.

Well, Hyekka Masters are technically female units, and aren't Armored Tank-Tops (or even less) a staple of games these days?

 

 

PS: Why are we missing so many forum emotes, DE? I wanted to do :tongue:, but you don't have that one.

[Ardhanarishvara]

16 hours ago, KuraiWolf2014 said:

Keyword "Personally". What YOU experience means almost nothing for other people. Just because YOU think that 40-50 is mid tier DOESN'T mean it is that way for everyone. Your word is not law.

I never my word was law. Please town down the aggression and don't put words in my mouth.