This game needs an auction house.

[Somi_xD]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb Aggh:

I think you're mixing up the "intelligent" with "perfect".  Because designing an auction house that does not tank the value of items and intensify the grind for most players to earn plat would be an insane tight rope act.  The current economy might not be perfect, but it rewards time played better than just about any f2p game out there.

Perfect are would be 100%
90% are quite possible and there is would still be air upwards.
Don't take those "90-99%" too serious (it's not like i have acutal solid numbers on this topic), I don't deny that it is abit of an exaggeration but it serves the purpose.
Like i already said - i am not against the current trading system, it is a basic and relativly solid (as far as a basic construnct can be)
But i also would appreciate a step towards all players on this topic.
There are trading systems where you have a "small/limited" AH but also you have a bazaar and/or a trading chat.
I am not for a pure AH but a working hybrid system isn't that hard to realize, but still it needs some good attention to work.
 

vor 21 Minuten schrieb Aggh:

The current economy might not be perfect, but it rewards time played better than just about any f2p game out there.

vor 5 Stunden schrieb PatternistSlave:

The only game I've heard of as fair to free players as WF is Path of Exile.  Which also doesn't have an auction house coincidentally.

Aaahhh... i wouldn't go so far and say that WF stands out so far in terms of in-game economic ^^'

About Path of Exile - didn't found the time to play it, so i can't say anything to it.
But if those are the only ones you would consider fair to free player, then i recommend you to investigate a bit more on this topic.
Also, what do you define as fair to free player? Does this definition can be used for every F2P game?

 

[Aggh]

1 hour ago, Somi_xD said:

Perfect are would be 100%
90% are quite possible and there is would still be air upwards.
Don't take those "90-99%" too serious (it's not like i have acutal solid numbers on this topic), I don't deny that it is abit of an exaggeration but it serves the purpose.
Like i already said - i am not against the current trading system, it is a basic and relativly solid (as far as a basic construnct can be)
But i also would appreciate a step towards all players on this topic.
There are trading systems where you have a "small/limited" AH but also you have a bazaar and/or a trading chat.
I am not for a pure AH but a working hybrid system isn't that hard to realize, but still it needs some good attention to work.
 

Aaahhh... i wouldn't go so far and say that WF stands out so far in terms of in-game economic ^^'

About Path of Exile - didn't found the time to play it, so i can't say anything to it.
But if those are the only ones you would consider fair to free player, then i recommend you to investigate a bit more on this topic.
Also, what do you define as fair to free player? Does this definition can be used for every F2P game?

 

Oh come on.  I made 600p casually farming mirage prime when she released.  That's a round $40 of premium currency in less than a week.  Most f2p games value player time at around 10-15 cents an hour.  Even farming 24 hours a day for a full week most games will not reward you that much. But by all means, let's hear your examples of games that reward player time better.  It'll be a good laugh.

Edited January 23, 2018 by Aggh

[Loswaith]

1 hour ago, Aggh said:

Oh come on.  I made 600p casually farming mirage prime when she released.  That's a round $40 of premium currency in less than a week.

That is not entirely great for DE because that is $40 you personally didn't spend that you may have otherwise.  Sure someone else did spend on plat at some point, but it is unknown if that player would have bought that plat anyway or it just came with the bundle they wanted the bits from.
However if you see the previous as a positive, as Mirage is a new prime you could have done the same in less time because you have a larger market offering demand on them.

If trading prices are lower there is much more incentive for players to actually buy platinum from DE as well, as platinum becomes vastly more value for money to do so (or adds more value to bundles with plat in them).  It is also simple in that if plat becomes harder to gather in large amounts there is more incentive for individuals to actually buy it for those bigger purchases (knowing that the smaller left over amounts has much more use).  As it stands now you can do 3-4 trades (with the right stuff) and not need plat again for the next year (or if it is a rare vaulted set just one trade).

Another aspect is it puts plat in the hands of more players rather than fewer ones, so is going to leave the system more frequently as more players will be buying up cosmetics, slots or whatever else they want from DE's market (that will need to be replaced).

Lastly and possibly the best reason is it teaches players that plat is relative 'easy' to get in small amounts so they will spend it more often on the cheaper things.

Edited January 23, 2018 by Loswaith

[PatternistSlave]

23 minutes ago, Loswaith said:

That is not entirely great for DE

It is if they're more interested in being known for their quality business model and attracting a variety of players as opposed to being just another pay2win monstrosity squeezing every penny they can out of whales.  "You don't have enough Korean mmo's full of bots to wave your wallet around in?"

 

3 hours ago, Somi_xD said:

Aaahhh... i wouldn't go so far and say that WF stands out so far in terms of in-game economic ^^'

About Path of Exile - didn't found the time to play it, so i can't say anything to it.
But if those are the only ones you would consider fair to free player, then i recommend you to investigate a bit more on this topic.
Also, what do you define as fair to free player? Does this definition can be used for every F2P game?

Fair as I was using it was how free players compare to paid.

1 hour ago, Aggh said:

But by all means, let's hear your examples of games that reward player time better.  It'll be a good laugh.

This please.

[Aggh]

13 hours ago, Loswaith said:

That is not entirely great for DE because that is $40 you personally didn't spend that you may have otherwise.  Sure someone else did spend on plat at some point, but it is unknown if that player would have bought that plat anyway or it just came with the bundle they wanted the bits from.

You broke your argument before you even began it.  As you've said, someone bought the plat.  Having a f2p monetization model that lets use free players to make money off of paying players is a win all around.  It's much better than what most f2p games do, for DE as a company and for the players.  They'd have changed things a while ago if they really thought they were losing out.

 

13 hours ago, Loswaith said:

If trading prices are lower there is much more incentive for players to actually buy platinum from DE as well, as platinum becomes vastly more value for money to do so (or adds more value to bundles with plat in them).  It is also simple in that if plat becomes harder to gather in large amounts there is more incentive for individuals to actually buy it for those bigger purchases (knowing that the smaller left over amounts has much more use).  As it stands now you can do 3-4 trades (with the right stuff) and not need plat again for the next year (or if it is a rare vaulted set just one trade).

You didn't really think this through before you wrote this out, did you?  Cheaper prices will mean people won't need to buy as much plat.  And because of the massive existing supply of items the prices won't  be able to recover.  It'll just mean that people will need to buy less plat for trades and people won't be able to earn as much plat from trades.
 

Edited January 23, 2018 by Aggh

[Uthael]

22 hours ago, Aggh said:

You didn't really think this through before you wrote this out, did you?  Cheaper prices will mean people won't need to buy as much plat.  And because of the massive existing supply of items the prices won't  be able to recover.  It'll just mean that people will need to buy less plat for trades and people won't be able to earn as much plat from trades.

Currently, there's no reliable plat sink except for buyable cosmetics. Player-to-player transaction taxes are all in credits (which I approve of).

With the AH, the prices would drop. That's for certain. But the number of trades would fire up the economy a lot! Players who never participated in trading before would definitely try to earn some plat. And the 5-15% plat tax would make sure it doesn't just circulate between players. DE wouldn't have to rely solely on the market anymore. Plat would vanish with each auction trade. And every greedy trader looking to flip some items (buy them cheap and sell for more) would help voiding plat while making a profit. Because of that larger supply of items it would all go faster.

To earn the same amount of plat for the cosmetics you might want, you'd have to do a lot more trading. And that means a lot of plat swallowed by the tax. And that would create a higher demand for plat itself. Traders and people who buy plat would have easier access to everything money can buy. This means there's a better chance for the average player to invest their $ in the game, too.

If the prices drop low enough, mods will start selling in bundles of 10 or 50 for recycling into Endo, ensuring a healthy demand for those. This means a wider variety of stuff would sell than now. Heck, if supply of trash grows high enough and prices drop low enough, people might start buying bundles of trash blueprints just to sell them for credits and avoid grinding Index. But I don't see this happening.

P.S.: People are not supposed to earn plat from trades. People are supposed to spend plat on trades. And with this, we'd get both.

Edited January 24, 2018 by Uthael

[Urabask]

17 minutes ago, Uthael said:

P.S.: People are not supposed to earn plat from trades. People are supposed to spend plat on trades. And with this, we'd get both.

No, you really are supposed to earn plat from trades.  The game couldn't really be F2P without it given that slots are almost exclusively obtained from the market and cost plat.

[Uthael]

 

1 minute ago, Urabask said:

No, you really are supposed to earn plat from trades.  The game couldn't really be F2P without it given that slots are almost exclusively obtained from the market and cost plat.

Yes, for the F2P sake, of course. That's the only reason I'm not playing WoW or EVE right now (I feel EVE is P2W).

[EinheriarJudith]

9 hours ago, Uthael said:

 

Yes, for the F2P sake, of course. That's the only reason I'm not playing WoW or EVE right now (I feel EVE is P2W).

Eve online's economy is completely player driven. eve is not some kind of PVP game its an open galaxy space game where people can be pirates or serve in their factions military all of these things require money. ships, ammo, and any armaments would cost you money in real life (ships like boats etc for the sake of the example). pay to win? no such thing in eve, a game where everything cost money right up to even the space your corporation takes up.

Edited January 24, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[CarrotSalad]

1 hour ago, EinheriarJudith said:

Eve online's economy is completely player driven. eve is not some kind of PVP game its an open galaxy space game where people can be pirates or serve in their factions military all of these things require money. ships, ammo, and any armaments would cost you money in real life (ships like boats etc for the sake of the example). pay to win? no such thing in eve, a game where everything cost money right up to even the space your corporation takes up.

Is it really player driven when they have hired real world economists to manage the entire thing? Eve also has the most diverse game economy that im aware of.
It's also got a reputation as being a hardcore sim something that is considered too hardcore and as a result discouraged many casuals and gamers away for having to large amount of time just to learn how to survive.

Does DE want to hire a fulltime economist as other MMO's have done to try and make a player driven auction+trading system work? I personally dont mind but be very aware of the destruction that will follow. Easily obtainable items will crash to worthless value mid tier items will drop. while the rarest mods are going to be sold through ebay, facebook trading and other websites for real world money. Because the value of platinum will be destroyed by prices being too sky high for the hardest to obtain items.

This always forces developers to then further reduce droprates and add more layers of grind to an already grindy and slow progression system. Blade and Soul is 1 MMO currently at the top end of this problem. A result of NcWest being too cheap and not understanding thier own game economy.

[Aggh]

15 hours ago, Uthael said:

Currently, there's no reliable plat sink except for buyable cosmetics

The hell are you on about? Slots. Boosters, potatoes, even forma.  Even new warframes are sink for people that don't want to wait for research/quests/build time.  There are plenty of sinks, not that they're really necessary since while high trade values may introduce more plat into the market, they still force plenty of purchases since most people don't get their plat from trades.

 

15 hours ago, Uthael said:

To earn the same amount of plat for the cosmetics you might want, you'd have to do a lot more trading. And that means a lot of plat swallowed by the tax. And that would create a higher demand for plat itself.

Not any higher than what we have right now.  Trading already drives plenty of plat purchases since most of the plat the game is bought.  All the tax would do is raise the price of trading which would be more likely to discourage purchases.

 

15 hours ago, Uthael said:

If the prices drop low enough, mods will start selling in bundles of 10 or 50 for recycling into Endo, ensuring a healthy demand for those.

Allowing bulk trades like that would open up the viability of botting.  Most modes are worthless anyways so people could do that now anyways.  There are some really efficient endo farms in the game though so you'd have to be really tight on time for that to be worthwhile.

 

15 hours ago, Uthael said:

P.S.: People are not supposed to earn plat from trades. People are supposed to spend plat on trades. And with this, we'd get both.

What an asinine thing to say.  If someone is spending plat then someone else is earning plat.

Edited January 24, 2018 by Aggh

[xandro2]

On 16-12-2017 at 7:23 PM, Oru5732 said:

So far the devs have only stated that selling things, while you are offline shouldn't be a thing, but that was quite a while back, so they could have changed their mind by now.

Trade chat can be frustrating, which is why for now you could use warframe.market and wftrader.

it can be like warframe.market, it only states online sellers. ( the game could also say if inactive for longer then 30min u are on inactive and cant sell) 

 

[Loswaith]

On 1/23/2018 at 2:46 PM, PatternistSlave said:

It is if they're more interested in being known for their quality business model and attracting a variety of players as opposed to being just another pay2win monstrosity squeezing every penny they can out of whales.  "You don't have enough Korean mmo's full of bots to wave your wallet around in?"

While a trading/auction house is far more accessible for all players and way more professional looking than using a chat for the purpose, thus would look far better for DE and help them to look like a quality product, but you still seem against it.  It wont at all change DE's business model as that has little to do with trading (a way to move around platinum to those that can use it).

Don't forget the current lions share of traded platinum is being paid for by those whales, it is what the entire model of free to play works on and where the 'whale' term was coined from..

As to the botting issue DE has huge restrictions now (and yet there are still bots and plat sellers), to expect DE to not have other restrictions or at-least the current ones, is frankly insulting to DE's ability.

 

On 1/23/2018 at 3:27 PM, Aggh said:

You broke your argument before you even began it.  As you've said, someone bought the plat.  Having a f2p monetization model that lets use free players to make money off of paying players is a win all around.  It's much better than what most f2p games do, for DE as a company and for the players.  They'd have changed things a while ago if they really thought they were losing out.

You completely missed the point, while someone has bought the plat, the plat you got you personally didn't pay for.  We can't say why another bought the plat initially, however you seem certain it was only for trading which is highly unlikely as there are plenty of other reasons why players would buy plat. All we can say is you didn't buy the plat at all.
Likewise an auction/trading house doesn't prevent that same platinum being moved about, nor free players to gather it.  In fact it makes it accessible to more free players (just typically in smaller quantities). 
While the only way it would make warframe pay to win is if DE removes the ability for players to get things without trading, more than they do now.  Warframe isn't pay to win now, and that has little to do with trading and everything to do with the way they provide an in game way to gain things or a purchase option.

If DE was losing out from trading they would remove even what they have now and not be  It is not at all about DE losing out as is your argument, it is about DE getting more and a more professional looking game.  All in which would actually retain or entice more players into the game, which can only be good for the game as a whole.

 

On 1/23/2018 at 3:27 PM, Aggh said:

...  Cheaper prices will mean people won't need to buy as much plat.  And because of the massive existing supply of items the prices won't  be able to recover.  It'll just mean that people will need to buy less plat for trades and people won't be able to earn as much plat from trades.

This wont change the amount of plat players need at all.  You cant trade for slots, you cant trade most cosmetics, you cant trade for orokin reactors/catalysts or even forma and many other staples you simply cannot trade for.  Those prices wont get lower just because trading prices do. 
Sure an individual player wont need to buy as much plat to trade with but they can't get everything via trading and because of that it is highly unlikely that the majority of players only buy platinum for trading.  However the player-base as a whole will need at-least the same amount of platinum or more as more players start using traded platinum for those staples (as more platinum is going out of the system more needs to come into the system).
Though it is highly likely plenty of players feel they are getting less value for the platinum they do buy because it gets them little from trading as well.

 

9 hours ago, Aggh said:

Not any higher than what we have right now.  Trading already drives plenty of plat purchases since most of the plat the game is bought.  All the tax would do is raise the price of trading which would be more likely to discourage purchases.

So prices going up you feel will discourage platinum purchases, but you seems to be against trading prices going down, that would actually encourage more platinum purchases on the whole.  (There is a reason why real world markets are all about making prices cheaper and goods more accessible)

Edited January 25, 2018 by Loswaith
clarifications

[Aggh]

1 hour ago, Loswaith said:

You completely missed the point, while someone has bought the plat, the plat you got you personally didn't pay for.  We can't say why another bought the plat initially, however you seem certain it was only for trading which is highly unlikely as there are plenty of other reasons why players would buy plat. All we can say is you didn't buy the plat at all.

No, you missed the point.  It doesn't matter that I didn't pay for it and it doesn't matter what it was bought for.  Someone did and that means DE got money for it.

 

1 hour ago, Loswaith said:

This wont change the amount of plat players need at all. 

Yes it will lol.  Even semi decent rivens go for 100p, some god rivens can go for 20k+  These aren't prices that could possibly be sustained just by recirculating existing plat in a market where the supply of items is constantly being refilled.  Prime parts drive a lot of plat purchases, especially when primes first come out.  It's cheaper than buying the prime access so people don't mind spending the cash on it.  You obsess over the idea of staples as plat sinks but that's like talking about the real world economy as though buying cars and houses aren't as important to the economy as buying groceries.

1 hour ago, Loswaith said:

So prices going up you feel will discourage platinum purchases, but you seems to be against trading prices going down, that would actually encourage more platinum purchases on the whole.  (There is a reason why real world markets are all about making prices cheaper and goods more accessible)

Real world markets are about selling things at the highest price that the market can bear.  Lowering prices is not always good for the market, especially when there is an existing excess of supply.  The AH would lift the existing layer of obfuscation on the supply of items and would definitely tank the price of pretty much everything.  There can't possibly be enough demand to meet the real supply on prime parts or rivens that we have now and there likely never will be. The AH would tank the price on these items and lose money for DE and for traders all for a bit extra convenience/functionality that is already provided by existing tools.

Edited January 25, 2018 by Aggh

[PatternistSlave]

1 hour ago, Loswaith said:

the current lions share of traded platinum is being paid for by those whales

There is no such thing as whales in Warframe and you're just showing your ignorance even using the term to describe any Warframe player. 

1 hour ago, Loswaith said:

way more professional looking

Form over function, eh?

1 hour ago, Loswaith said:

It wont at all change DE's business model as that has little to do with trading

An auction house would actively hinder their business model and design philosophy.  Probably subvert entirely.  They wanted to create a game akin to LoL.  Where free players aren't treated as the second class citizens you've clearly decided we are.

[Loswaith]

7 minutes ago, Aggh said:

You obsess over the idea of staples as plat sinks but that's like talking about the real world economy as though buying cars and houses aren't as important to the economy as buying groceries.

They are, there are literally millions of people in the world not buying houses and cars but still buy groceries (or farm them), kinda hard to live without those groceries.  Yes higher priced goods are part of the economy, but they also cost more to produce too and create wealth in that need for production. 
Likewise you don't need riven or primes to play warframe at all even into tier three sorties, but you will have a tough time of things if you don't buy slots, or use orokin reactors/catalysts.  Likewise the production of things in warframe produces no ancillary wealth either. 

 

12 minutes ago, Aggh said:

The AH would lift the existing layer of obfuscation on the supply of items and would definitely tank the price of pretty much everything.

Then that is the real supply and demand at work (within the game) and not the obfuscated one, you just don't want that obfuscation removed.  Sure it will change a lot of things, but it wont at all be the doom and gloom you seem to make it out to be.  

 

14 minutes ago, Aggh said:

Real world markets are about selling things at the highest price that the market can bear.  Lowering prices is not always good for the market, especially when there is an existing excess of supply.

No the real world isn't at all about selling for the highest price the market can bear, it is about selling for the highest profit the market lets them (which has a multitude of fascets). 
Likewise just about everything in the real world has a cost to produce and a limited lifespan, warframe has neither, it costs nothing to produce things and they have a next to infinite natural lifespan so they are 'worth' nothing.

The factor of stuff being 'worth' nothing is exactly the reason anyone can come along and be part of the market.

[Loswaith]

5 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

There is no such thing as whales in Warframe and you're just showing your ignorance even using the term to describe any Warframe player. 

Haha...

6 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

An auction house would actively hinder their business model and design philosophy.  Probably subvert entirely.  They wanted to create a game akin to LoL.  Where free players aren't treated as the second class citizens you've clearly decided we are.

Any trading at all can actively hinder that business model.  Not at all I don't treat free players as second class citizens and all and actually understand why they are needed.  It doesn't mean I think some of them should be forced to waste their time sitting in a chat channel as opposed to playing the game (the entire point of the game) and having some fun doing what they want to do. 
Expecting free players to sit around in a chat channel is treating them like a second class, as it is essentially saying "you cant have fun unless you pay".  Likewise I'm not asking for the trade chat (or trade in general) to be removed either, so those that do find trading fun can still do so.

What myself and others are asking for is a system equally accessible to all players regardless of how they want to play and what they find fun.  Making the game fun is beneficial to all players not just subset of them.

 

17 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Form over function, eh?

It's not like the trade channel is actually providing a good form or function to the goal either.  If it did there wouldn't constantly be issues with it.

[PatternistSlave]

Just now, Loswaith said:

Not at all I don't treat free players as second class citizens

You just did a second ago with this statement.

2 hours ago, Loswaith said:

Don't forget the current lions share of traded platinum is being paid for by those whales, it is what the entire model of free to play works on and where the 'whale' term was coined from..

 

2 minutes ago, Loswaith said:

actually understand why they are needed

Then you might not want a system that makes their time far less valuable.

5 minutes ago, Loswaith said:

  It doesn't mean I think some of them should be forced to waste their time sitting in a chat channel as opposed to playing the game (the entire point of the game) and having some fun doing what they want to do. 
Expecting free players to sit around in a chat channel is treating them like a second class, as it is essentially saying "you cant have fun unless you pay".  Likewise I'm not asking for the trade chat (or trade in general) to be removed either, so those that do find trading fun can still do so.

Let's say for the sake of argument there weren't bots farming anything a new player could sell (which there probably would be as tends to happen when items are easily converted to plat).  Trade is now convenient for everyone.  Which means every random item is easily converted to plat.  For everyone.  No longer is it inconvenient for an MR 25 to sell those 20 Flows they get easily and don't care about the price of.  How much do you think a new player selling that one Flow they desperately need to be as valuable as possible will be able to get for it?  Free players spend time in trade chat because that time is valuable.  You want to remove that outlet.  Remove value.  You're not replacing it with anything.  You're just removing it.  You can't be dumb enough to think you're not either.  An auction house would replace trade chat and you know it.  Let's not pretend.

[Badgriuel]

Been reading this topic and there are some concerns from both sides. But honestly this game does need a much better system of being able to trade and sell items. Trade chat zooms past you if you don't use the filter. You also have to either be in the dojo or on your orbiter to even see trade chat. So if you want to sell or are looking to buy a specific item a lion share of your time is going to be spent you effectively doing nothing for 5 minutes to an hour or 2 depending on your patience.  Or you could use third party sites to try and look for an item you want or sell it. You really shouldn't have to use a third party site to simply try and buy something in game or trade for it. 

Now as for having an auction house(AH), this game can have an auction house that wouldn't upset the balance too much of how the economy works currently. This is my example of how an auction house could work in this game that would make it easier to buy and sell items and also not have the market to become over saturated with items from potential bots. 

Player A has 10 trades they can do each day. They head to the AH and place 5 items for sale, now these 5 items will deduct 5 of his 10 available trades for the day. Player A logs off and comes back the next day after daily reset, he has mail letting him know an item sold. Player A retrieves his plat from the mail box and then goes to use that plat to buy something from the AH. When player A gets to the AH it will tell him he has 6 trades left for the day. 

You might be asking why does he only have 6 and not 10 since the reset took place. Well each item you have up for sale on the AH takes up one of your trades, the only way for player A to get back to his max trades per day on the next daily reset is by having the 4 items he has on the AH sell or simply cancels the auctions before the next daily reset.

There can be a credit tax to everything that is sold on the AH, like we have one already for trades. The tax can be set for starting at say 3% and monitor to see if it's too much credits being taken each time you buy an item or sell one. If the Dev's feel there isn't enough credits being used for tax then bump it up to 5% and look at the data again.