Sentient Beings? How Come Our Warframes Don't Move Themselves Besides That One Time In The Second Dream?

[(XBOX)Mechanomaly]

23 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

The strongest evidence in favour of the theory is the breaking of War during the Second Dream.

Definitely not

[SaferSaviour]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

The fact that he has Umbras body model could very well mean he will feature strongly in the Sacrifice. The Stalker has long been thought of as a rogue warframe who doesn't have an Operator. 

From what we've seen so far (in game), the emphasis seems to be on Ballas and Margulis. I would not be averse to the Stalker playing a role though, as he is very interesting.

However, the Stalker would have been one of those people for whom the Warframes were the Tenno, and he distinugishes himself from both within his codex entry. He was a 'low guardian' who watched the Tenno's rebellion from a distance.

 

19 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

The Operators were kept secret if you remember. The only thing people knew about the Tenno is that they were the Warframes and nothing else. The Operators were specifically placed on Lua, the main seat of power for the Orokin Empire. It's obvious that no one was supposed to know about them. The Warframes are the Tenno.

The problem there is that they weren't secret to Ballas, Margulis, various other scientists, or Executors, the Seven, the Queens... various other figures. The Executors approved Ballas's direction for the Warframes, while being so afraid of the Tenno they would kill an Archimedean for just keeping them alive. The Queens refer to the Warframes as worthless 'infested puppets' and talk directly through them to the Tenno. Even Helminth says the Tenno are the only thing he fears.

 

24 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

Who said they were made from scratch by the Orokin? They could very possibly be humans that were experimented on with the Technocyte virus.

This is a definite possibility. We do know the Warframes are at least partly comprised of infested tissue and Helminth is one of the few characters(?) who makes a true distinction when talking to Warframes vs. Tenno. Nidus in particular is 'Master', while the Tenno are 'Void Demons'. I also saw an interesting Theory about Nidus being the first Warframe; a prototype. If I can put my finger on that again, I'll send it to you, since it uses a few of your arguments.

Sadly, we don't know much about the Infested and the relationship of the Infested to conscious thought. There definitely seems to be an overriding thought process that subjugates any desires previously held by the host, but at least some of the more strong-willed hosts do retain some aspects of their original personalities. Or, at least, they have distinguishable personalities (Alad V, Jordas, Helminth).

How a Warframe would fit into all of this, no one can say. We'd need more information.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

On December 31, 2017 at 8:25 AM, Ryim_Drykeon said:

My theory is a bit off the standard theorems.

I believe the Warframe is now an extension of the Operators Id (as in Id, Ego, and Super-Ego). While controlling the Warframe via the Somatic Link for so long, while in cryo-sleep, the Id of the Operators actually shifted to expand into the "shell" of the bio-techinal-infested form of the Warframe. In essence, the Warframes are now an extension of the the Operator's mind. At least on an instinctual level.

This precludes that the Warframes can react on a "Fight or Flight" thought, as well as feel base emotions (such as love for the operator). It was this instinctual emotional state that allowed the Warframe to confront the Stalker. From a sense of "protect the family/herd" if not a "protect self".

The extension of the Id also allows for why the Operator no longer needs the chair to initiate Transference. With the bond strengthening, the Operator and the Warframe are basically becoming one being. Evolving, if you will, into a new species.

As the evolution progresses, there could be further strengthening of this bond to the point where Ego begins to form. I believe this is the hints of Umbra (again, this is only WAG here).

Not surprisingly, as in the movie "Forbidden Planet", I surmised that the reason the Stalker keeps coming back is that he is your Operator's subconscious, monstrous "ID".  He finds you because he IS you.

You both mirror each other's actions in the Second Dream by staring at your hand THE EXACT SAME WAY.

You can't hurt YOURSELF with your own powers.

His weapons are named based on negative emotions and events.

He is watching "from afar" as you slaughter the Emperors/Executors at the Ceremony because he originates in the mind of your Sleeping Tenno through Guilt, Hate, Despair...

Part of you feels guilt and betrayal at your actions and the Void manifests those energies through the Stalker. 

The "Collective Unconscious" would give a Gestaltist spin to Stalker.

A much cooler premise than "Angry, Vengeful Dax trapped in a Warframe".

Edited January 2, 2018 by (PS4)Silverback73

[Salenstormwing]

3 hours ago, (Xbox One)Juniormech777 said:

This isn't even the topic. The topic is about how the Warframes are sentient. The topic is to discuss what causes them to be sentient. There's no point to create a theory that immediately gets debunked, to debate on whether the Warframes are sentient or not when there's quite a bit of clear proof that they're sentient, as already shown and explained in this thread. Compared to a popular term known as "foreshadowing".

Are they sentient though? I don't see it. Yes, Warframes are made of a type of technocyte, but in the end, they're just drones being piloted remotely by users. I'm saying that the original movement of the Warframe as seen in the Second Dream is nothing more than the Tenno using Transference without the transference armature chair-thing.

I see Warframes as a very advanced body, but they're only sentient when the operator is tele-operating the body, because it's the Operator's thoughts that are there.

Welcome to Transhumanity, where your body is replaceable, and easily a blank slate until you still an actual thinking brain into it.

And if your computer/body does something it's not supposed to do, that doesn't mean it's sentient. It's just some malfunctioning hardware. Now to figure out how to install a new soundcard into Octavia.

[TARINunit9]

On 12/30/2017 at 7:11 PM, DaftMeat said:

I interpreted that as the Operator was just controlling the Warframe without touching it.

 

On 12/30/2017 at 7:13 PM, Salenstormwing said:

It could have been the first hint of TWW's transference. Being able to control something without the somatic link.

 

On 12/31/2017 at 4:03 AM, SaferSaviour said:

Yeah. I felt that too, more so after TWW. The first time the Tenno uses Transference without the need for the Somatic Link.

The problems with that are lazy writing. "The operator comes across a problem with transference, but just solves it with no issue" is not how you do storytelling, not when compared to "The operator has a problem with transference, but through sheer willpower the warframe solver it at a critical moment". Yes, out-of-universe information is a totally valid critique

Edited January 2, 2018 by TARINunit9

[Salenstormwing]

4 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

The problems with that are lazy writing. "The operator comes across a problem with transference, but just solves it with no issue" is not how you do storytelling, not when compared to "The operator has a problem with transference, but through sheer willpower the warframe solver it at a critical moment". Yes, out-of-universe information is a totally valid critique

Foreshadowing the use of Operator Transference in TWW counts as "lazy writing"?

I have no idea how to respond to that, so here, have a gif of Rhino riding a Moa.

[Vivian]

It wasn't the frame by its own, it was to show that you can control the frame by transference without the somatic pod mumbo jumbo.

[(XBOX)Mechanomaly]

Just now, Shadilay said:

It wasn't the frame by its own, it was to show that you can control the frame by transference without the somatic pod mumbo jumbo.

You should read this entire thread.

[Vivian]

4 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Juniormech777 said:

You should read this entire thread.

Ow didn't realise that someone already pointed it out. 

Also since we are on lore, Ballas is Wally. 

Ballas teases us by imitating as our father in recollection of memories from Zariman. (You can actually see his ethereal hand choking us.)

Ballas uses us to get to Lotus so he can redeem himself.

 

[(XBOX)Mechanomaly]

Looks like you only read the first page.

[TARINunit9]

4 hours ago, Salenstormwing said:

Foreshadowing the use of Operator Transference in TWW counts as "lazy writing"?

I have no idea how to respond to that, so here, have a gif of Rhino riding a Moa.

Except it's not foreshadowing that, because the technique they learn in TWW doesn't even work like that

Edited January 3, 2018 by TARINunit9

[TARINunit9]

2 hours ago, Shadilay said:

Ow didn't realise that someone already pointed it out. 

Or that I pointed out that it really doesn't work like that. It's definitely foreshadowing, but it isn't foreshadowing TWW

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

15 hours ago, SaferSaviour said:

From what we've seen so far (in game), the emphasis seems to be on Ballas and Margulis.

Who both had a hand in the creation of the Tenno. Ballas was actually the one who created the Warframes so it's obvious we'll find out more about them. DE have openly said the next cinematic quest will focus on the Warframes as well.

15 hours ago, SaferSaviour said:

The problem there is that they weren't secret to Ballas, Margulis, various other scientists, or Executors, the Seven, the Queens... various other figures.

All of those figures were high ranking in the Orokin Empire. It's obvious they would all know about it, but the rest of the system wouldn't.

15 hours ago, SaferSaviour said:

The Executors approved Ballas's direction for the Warframes, while being so afraid of the Tenno they would kill an Archimedean for just keeping them alive

I don't think they executed Margulis because she was trying to keep them alive, since they needed the Operators. It's more likely she was executed because she opposed the Orokin using the children as weapons.

14 hours ago, Salenstormwing said:

Are they sentient though? I don't see it.

Then you haven't been paying much attention. Rhino Prime codex, Valkyr Prime and Mirage Prime trailers, first draft TWW script that featured Ballas having a conversation with Umbra which the Sacrifice trailer uses, the Warframe pulling the sword out on it's own.

14 hours ago, Salenstormwing said:

I'm saying that the original movement of the Warframe as seen in the Second Dream is nothing more than the Tenno using Transference without the transference armature chair-thing.

No. The Tenno cannot control the Warframes from afar, even after TWW. They still have to be inside the frame to operate it. The Operator was also very clearly occupied being strangled by the Stalker to start trying to control the Warframe. The scene is specifically set up in a way that makes it clear the frame is doing something unexpected seeing as how even Hunhow is baffled how the frame can supposedly move without it's Operator.

There is a LOT of evidence that suggests the Warframes are sentient creatures.

[Lakais]

I think the likeliest theory is that Frames are semi-autonomous. It simply moved because there's a big thing stuck in it's chest. A basic mind going "GET IT OFF!" There is SOMETHING in there but it is incredibly suppressed. It's a copied, simplified personality, distilled down to the skills needed for combat. A sad story really. A creature that has never been allowed to think for itself, never been allowed to motivate itself. 

Personally I hold that Operators are not in control of their frames but in command. What Transference does is that it transfers the somatic "will" of the operator to the Frame. It tricks the Frame into believing that what the Operator wants to do is what it wants to do. The Somatic Nervous System (SNS) is what controls our voluntary muscle systems. The skeletal muscles that move when we want to move. The chair blocks off the Operator's own SNS so they don't thrash around in the pod. But it overlays the commands to the Frame, pretending to be Frame's own decisions. In return, Transference lets the Operator see and feel what the frame does. Tricking the Operator into believing that the hands are their own and that they are in control of this beautiful beast. This would also explain how Infested Alad V can take control of our Frames. He over-rides the Somatic Link, replacing our signal with the commands of the infestation in the neck-ring. 

If Operators really were in one-to-one full command, Frames wouldn't have different idles. They would move and act EXACTLY the same because for us, it's be like changing an outfit. But Frames, by their specific idles, have very different personalities. 

Edited January 3, 2018 by Lakais

[Godin_The_Killer]

Looking at just the idea itself, provided that Umbra frames aren't just a reskin of the Prime variant (aka they have different abilities than the normal and Prime frames), then I wouldn't see any major issue with it other than the fact that amps would become pretty useless after that point.

[SaferSaviour]

2 hours ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

All of those figures were high ranking in the Orokin Empire. It's obvious they would all know about it, but the rest of the system wouldn't.

Yeah, but my point was how their attitudes differ towards the Tenno and the Warframes.

 

2 hours ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

I don't think they executed Margulis because she was trying to keep them alive, since they needed the Operators. It's more likely she was executed because she opposed the Orokin using the children as weapons.

They weren't Operators then. The Orokin did not have a use for them. The direction of the Warframes was solidified only when Ballas got Margulis's research, which was after her death (or, well, after he hid her or whatever, Apostasy Prologue stuff...). The game is fairly explicit about that. Ballas himself begs Margulis to recant her loyalties, while at the same time condemning the Tenno  "...What they need, Margulis, is to be destroyed! They're devils from that hell, not human anymore."

2 hours ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

Then you haven't been paying much attention. Rhino Prime codex, Valkyr Prime and Mirage Prime trailers, first draft TWW script that featured Ballas having a conversation with Umbra which the Sacrifice trailer uses, the Warframe pulling the sword out on it's own.

Rhino's codex is from the position of someone who has... less of an idea of what's going on than his companion, who knows about the Tenno. Ballas talks about the warframes being 'Tenno tamed' in Valkyr's very own trailer, and there's no reason why he can't be talking to Mirage's Operator. There's no suggestion of sentience within those trailers.

Also, of all the people to speak calmly about sentient machines... it's probably not going to be the man who underhandedly compromised all his principles and the Principles of his people in order to make the mistake that got the Sentients created.

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

6 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

They weren't Operators then. The Orokin did not have a use for them.

Until they found out they can control the Warframes (Source: Rhino Prime codex). Also the Orokin were not just about to throw away Void empowered children. As soon as they found out that the children can pacify the frames, they were going to be used as weapons. Margulis most likely spoke out against this and as such was sentenced to death.

9 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

"...What they need, Margulis, is to be destroyed! They're devils from that hell, not human anymore."

That was his first sentiment against the Tenno. However he may have changed his mind. He cautions an Executor about using the "golems possessed by devil minds" even though they were desperate. If he so wanted the Tenno dead, why would he not send them out onto the battlefield? Perhaps he was concerned about Margulis since he knew she would not want the children used as war weapons, or perhaps he was concerned about the children as well as Margulis.

He also does not acknowledge us at all during the Apostasy prologue, completely ignoring us all together.

How exactly Ballas feels about the Tenno now, is completely open to speculation. We'll hopefully find out a lot more in the Sacrifice.

14 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

Ballas talks about the warframes being 'Tenno tamed'

But only just. That in itself is an admittance that the Warframes are sentient creatures no? For if they were simply hollow puppets, why would he say that?

16 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

there's no reason why he can't be talking to Mirage's Operator.

Ballas specifically talks about how "she distorted his design" and how "she suffered to become this beast". Like you said, he also refers to the Warframes as beasts in Valkyr Primes trailer. I don't think you can design an Operator, but you can design a Warframe. I also definitely don't think the Operators are "beasts" (More like whiny brats).

19 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

There's no suggestion of sentience within those trailers.

I think there is quite a lot of obvious suggestion that they are sentient. Also I'll keep pointing back to the early TWW script where it is explicitly stated that Umbra is a "fury untamed by Tenno control. A rogue Warframe."

21 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

it's probably not going to be the man who underhandedly compromised all his principles and the Principles of his people in order to make the mistake that got the Sentients created.

How do you know it was a mistake?

[SaferSaviour]

47 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

How exactly Ballas feels about the Tenno now, is completely open to speculation. We'll hopefully find out a lot more in the Sacrifice.

This is true.

My theory at the moment is that Margulis worked on Transference in order to help heal the Tenno. She hid aspects of the children from those around her in order to protect them (specifically, their void-touched nature). When discovered, she was put on trial for this, which is where we get all the fearmongering from Ballas and other Executors. They want the Tenno dead, seeing them as 'devils', 'void demons' and so on.

Margulis is killed- or, well, disposed of.

The children are put on ice, perhaps to be disposed of too. Then we get the Rhino Prime codex, where a delightful man named Davis finds information on the Tenno children and surprises his friend working on the Warframe project by linking them ("no one would have believed me"/"big fat promotions" is suggestive of a new development). It works, though, understandably, it's pretty terrifying for Davis's friend (the narrator).

Then things get back to the council and the Executors. Ballas advises the others against using 'golems possessed by devils', but by virtue of his relationship to Margulis as well as his inherently nosey and controlling nature, he winds up the one overseeing things.

 

47 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

But only just. That in itself is an admittance that the Warframes are sentient creatures no? For if they were simply hollow puppets, why would he say that?

Because he thinks that the Tenno aren't tame, and putting them in the warframe has 'only just' allowed them to be controlled by the Orokin. He refers to the Tenno and Warframe as one when he describes the end result as "less than their human seed".

 

47 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

Ballas specifically talks about how "she distorted his design" and how "she suffered to become this beast". Like you said, he also refers to the Warframes as beasts in Valkyr Primes trailer. I don't think you can design an Operator, but you can design a Warframe. I also definitely don't think the Operators are "beasts" (More like whiny brats).

He often conflates the Warframes as being part of the Tenno. See Valkyr. It's quite possible he refers to Mirage's Operator as Mirage. The Tenno sure did suffer to become the Operators, and they sure can subvert a design originally made to enhance them.

I also wouldn't call the Operators 'whiny brats'. They're children changed by something eldritch, who were forced to kill their parents, and who were then turned into child soldiers acting on the whims of others (whether Orokin or Lotus). And they do it. They don't whine about having to do it, they consistently forgive the people who use them and lie to them (Ordis, Lotus, Teshin), and they seem to be attempting to take more agency as time goes on. In at least one case, to the ultimate extreme (Rell).

I'd definitely like to see them out from under the thumb of the Lotus, or at least on equal footing, because they absolutely are her beasts. Her attack dogs. Just like they were the Orokin's beasts until they turned.

 

47 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

I think there is quite a lot of obvious suggestion that they are sentient. Also I'll keep pointing back to the early TWW script where it is explicitly stated that Umbra is a "fury untamed by Tenno control. A rogue Warframe."

See, this is interesting to me. If this is still part of the lore, then we get a lot more information from it. Owing to the Stalker's codex it would mean that the 'low Guardians' of which he was once a part were likely akin to him: Tenno-less Warframes. This is a pretty big upheaval for Orokin society as presently understood.

Further, if Stalker is an Umbra frame, it puts a distinction between the Tenno (Prime/Standard Warframes) and the Umbra frames themselves, which could mean that the Tenno frames are categorically not sentient, and that being 'Umbra' is the difference maker.

Of course, it's also quite possible that this lore was cut like that line from the script.

Edited January 3, 2018 by SaferSaviour

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

22 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

Because he thinks that the Tenno aren't tame, and putting them in the warframe has 'only just' allowed them to be controlled by the Orokin.

He is not describing the Operators in the Valkyr Prime trailer, he is talking about the Warframes. Only instead of talking about the specific one featured in the trailer like he did previously, he is talking about them as a whole. When he says "Tenno tamed" he is talking about the frames, not the Operator.

22 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

He often conflates the Warframes as being part of the Tenno. See Valkyr.

He doesn't conflate the Warframe as being part of the Tenno and the Valkyr trailer is the complete opposite of what you're implying. Ballas has never talked about the Operators in any of the previous Prime trailers and he is instead talking about the frames as a whole:

"Why do these Warframes stir us so? They burn with our lost desires, lost instincts. Tenno tamed, but only just. Cast and hunted as game. Trapped and tortured, yet they remain... animals."

He is talking specifically about the frames, not the Operators. The Rhino Prime codex also backs up this as the creature described in there clearly matches up with what he is saying here. A beast tamed by the Tenno (Operators). The trapped and tortured line also matches up with the context of the Mirage Prime trailer.

22 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

It's quite possible he refers to Mirage's Operator as Mirage.

It's not, since the Prime trailers have always been focused on the creation of the frames they feature. Also I'll point out again that he refers to the subject as a "beast", something which he calls the frames.

22 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

The Tenno sure did suffer to become the Operators, and they sure can subvert a design originally made to enhance them.

Margulis was the one who designed the Dream. The Tenno also are not referred to as beasts. Ever. All of this being related purely to the Tenno (Operator) is highly unlikely since the Warframes are the main point of this game.

22 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

I also wouldn't call the Operators 'whiny brats'. They're children changed by something eldritch, who were forced to kill their parents, and who were then turned into child soldiers acting on the whims of others

And yet they don't act anything like what a child soldier who has been forced to kill their parents does. "Don't call me a child. I'm a big boy/girl!" They whine and they certainly do not fit their lore of merciless space ninjas who wiped out a race of god-like post-humans and continue to kill on a daily basis.

22 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

Of course, it's also quite possible that this lore was cut like that line from the script.

Doubtful, since the Sacrifice trailer uses the same context as the early draft and even uses the same "All miracles require sacrifice" line. Given all of the hints and allusions (and outright admittance) we've been given, it's unwise to say that the warframes are not sentient and never have been.

Edited January 3, 2018 by (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01

[SaferSaviour]

28 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

He is not describing the Operators in the Valkyr Prime trailer, he is talking about the Warframes. Only instead of talking about the specific one featured in the trailer like he did previously, he is talking about them as a whole. When he says "Tenno tamed" he is talking about the frames, not the Operator.

He refers to the frames as the combination of both Tenno-child and Warframe. Hence the end result "less than their human seed." That 'seed' is the Tenno-child.

 

28 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

It's not, since the Prime trailers have always been focused on the creation of the frames they feature. Also I'll point out again that he refers to the subject as a "beast", something which he calls the frames.

Ballas constantly dehumanises the children. He calls them 'seed', 'devils', 'demons', 'animals' and once 'not human' outright. To Ballas, the Warframes are a way of taming the Tenno children.

If Stalker is Umbra and Umbra is sentient as discussed before, then the Warframes aren't feared at all. They're 'low Guardians' who get to watch the glorious Tenno champions. The real dangers. The only fear of the Infestation (Helminth).

 

28 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

And yet they don't act anything like what a child soldier who has been forced to kill their parents does. "Don't call me a child. I'm a big boy/girl!" They whine and they certainly do not fit their lore of merciless space ninjas who wiped out a race of god-like post-humans.

They absolutely do. They're just not cold, and their level of mercy rather depends on the player's Sun/Neutral/Moon choices. They're kids who were never given the option to do anything but fight, and they're coming to realise how immensely they've been decieved. Damn right they're getting angry at points, and snapping at the hand holding the leash. Heck, when they do get angry, they do so with clear reason. We've seen them do it because they've been hurt, because they've been commanded by someone who violated their trust, and because they were forcefully abducted and thrown in a cave.

They are somewhat reckless with their own safety, but that's probably learned behaviour. After all, Margulis was the only person who seemed to really care about their wellbeing.

 

28 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

Doubtful, since the Sacrifice trailer uses the same context as the early draft and even uses the same "All miracles require sacrifice line". Given all of the hints and allusions we've been given, it's unwise to say that the warframes are not sentient and never have been.

The Sacrifice is about the Umbra frames, which are distinct from the Prime/Standard variants in ways we do not know. If that distinction is sentience, then it means that the Prime/Standard variants are not sentient.

Edited January 3, 2018 by SaferSaviour

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

1 minute ago, SaferSaviour said:

He refers to the frames as the combination of both Tenno-child and Warframe

No he does not. The entire Prime trailer is focused on the warframes. The "less than their human seed" can mean a number of things. Firstly it could mean that they are less human than the others now that have become warframes, or that the Tenno could be their literal children before they became frames (seed). Also Ballas specifically said the Tenno were  "not human anymore", so why would he suddenly be saying that they are human?

5 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

Ballas constantly dehumanises the children. He calls them 'seed', 'devils', 'demons', 'animals' 

He only refers to the children as devils and demons. Seed is not something you can definitely say is a label for the Tenno. Animals are what he calls the Warframes. Did you not watch these trailers at all or read my quote from the wiki?

"Why do these Warframes stir us so? They burn with our lost desires, lost instincts. Tenno tamed, but only just. Cast and hunted as game. Trapped and tortured, yet they remain... animals."

10 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

If Stalker is Umbra and Umbra is sentient as discussed before, then the Warframes aren't feared at all.

How in the name of the Seven did you arrive at that conclusion?

10 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

They're 'low Guardians' who get to watch the glorious Tenno champions. The real dangers.

The Operators were in the dream. They were not out in public. They were a secret. Just because the warframes are sentient does not mean they are not feared.

12 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

They absolutely do.

They don't. They act like clueless morons most of the time and whine about being called a child in other times. Any real child who's been through that level of trauma would have stopped caring about that sort of thing long ago.

13 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

Damn right they're getting angry at points, and snapping at the hand holding the leash.

And all that does is come across as whining. 

14 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

The Sacrifice is about the Umbra frames, which are distinct from the Prime/Standard variants in ways we do not know. If that distinction is sentience, then it means that the Prime/Standard variants are not.

No it does not mean that at all. I don't know why but you seem entirely determined to not acknowledge the very real possibility that all warframes are sentient. The Rhino Prime codex, the Ballas lines in the Prime trailers, the Warframe pulling the sword out of it's body of it's own free will even though the Tenno was not operating it, the script for TWW. It's all there. I don't know why you're so opposed to the idea. DE have been hinting at this for a very long time and it would honestly be quite boring if the Warframes were just mindless suits that have no actually interesting history behind them.

[SaferSaviour]

1 minute ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

How in the name of the Seven did you arrive at that conclusion?

Because Stalker was not elevated with the Tenno. He and those in his caste were not regarded as the Orokin saviours, were not given any accolades and were abjectly afraid of the Tenno themselves. This is all in his codex.

4 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

And all that does is come across as whining. 

Not to me. But that's subjective.

4 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

No it does not mean that at all. I don't know why but you seem entirely determined to not acknowledge the very real possibility that all warframes are sentient. The Rhino Prime codex, the Ballas lines in the Prime trailers, the Warframe pulling the sword out of it's body of it's own free will even though the Tenno was not operating it, the script for TWW. It's all there. I don't know why you're so opposed to the idea. DE have been hinting at this for a very long time and it would honestly be quite boring if the Warframes were just mindless suits that have no actually interesting history behind them.

I'm not opposed to the idea. If it happens, I'll be fine with it. It'd be an interesting twist. I simply don't believe that the Prime/Standard variants are sentient. There's nothing that prooves beyond reasonable doubt. Some suggestions, yes, but nothing that can't be explained through lore we already have, or through other interpretations.

I did think of one little piece of lore that supports your perspective though.

Khora's kavat.

The newest lore sure does show that cat acting of its own will.

 

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

12 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

Because Stalker was not elevated with the Tenno. He and those in his caste were not regarded as the Orokin saviours, were not given any accolades and were abjectly afraid of the Tenno themselves

How does that translate to "The Operators were the ones feared and not the frames?". The Operators were a secret, known only to highest ranks in the Orokin Empire. I don't understand your way of thinking at all. For all intents and purposes the Warframes were the Tenno in the eyes of the system, because the actual Operators were hidden. The Stalker was a Low-Guardian. There were probably Tenno operated Warframes that were higher in rank than him. We don't know the workings of the Empire.

12 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

I'm not opposed to the idea.

You definitely seem like you are. You try really hard to link everything that is happening solely to the Tenno, when in it's overwhelming obvious that the Warframes are not just mindless puppets. 

12 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

I simply don't believe that the Prime/Standard variants are sentient.

Even though they clearly pulled out that sword at the end of the Second Dream. It wouldn't make sense if DE just said "Only the Umbra's are sentient", since that happened.

Edited January 3, 2018 by (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01

[SaferSaviour]

1 hour ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

How does that translate to "The Operators were the ones feared and not the frames?". The Operators were a secret, known only to highest ranks in the Orokin Empire. I don't understand your way of thinking at all. For all intents and purposes the Warframes were the Tenno in the eyes of the system, because the actual Operators were hidden. The Stalker was a Low-Guardian. There were probably Tenno operated Warframes that were higher in rank than him. We don't know the workings of the Empire.

You definitely seem like you are. You try really hard to link everything that is happening solely to the Tenno, when in it's overwhelming obvious that the Warframes are not just mindless puppets. 

Even though they clearly pulled out that sword at the end of the Second Dream. It wouldn't make sense if DE just said "Only the Umbra's are sentient", since that happened.

The Operators were the ones feared (amongst those who knew/know the difference, obviously). Even in present times, most of the major lore characters put the emphasis on the Tenno rather than the frames. To Teshin the Tenno are worth enlightening and the frames barely worth acknowledgement, to the Queens, the Tenno is new flesh and the Warframe nothing but a useless 'infested puppet'. The Man In The Wall doesn't acknowledge the frames at all and speaks only to and of the Tenno. Heck, even HUNHOW, the 'face' of sentient machines calls the Warframes 'metal puppets'.

You are right in that we don't know the workings of the Empire, but we don't need to know everything in order for the distinction between Tenno (Warframed) and Stalker to be clear. Stalker makes it clear. He differentiates himself from the Tenno in status/caste, in distance, and in motivation. He also hunts the Tenno and he also doesn't seem to regard the Tenno's frame as anything more than a tool, since even he is surprised when the frame snaps War.

I honestly, truly believe that the frames we have in game at present are not sentient. I can concede that evidence I read one way can been seen in another light, but nothing at all is conclusive. Even the breaking of War could be the Tenno's desperation powering through. I could certainly see the Warframes having some bestial or animalistic instincts, perhaps drawn from their infested tissue, but I don't see them as truly aware without the Operator's involvement.

Umbra? All we know is that they're drastically different than the regular frames in some way. Sentience could be that difference. Or it could be something else. DE's refuses to tell us until we finally get Umbra Excalibur in game.

Edited January 3, 2018 by SaferSaviour

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

3 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

The Operators were the ones feared (amongst those who knew/know the difference, obviously)

As well as the common soldiers etc. The Mag Prime and Rhino Prime codex entries attests to that. Silent, ever aware golems of great power that no one knew much about. 

6 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

He differentiates himself from the Tenno in status/caste, in distance, and in motivation.

Yes. However that does not mean he was always inside a Warframe back then. It also doesn't mean all Warframes were "low-guardians" and the Tenno were above them. There were clearly different castes. What they were exactly we don't know.

8 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

He also hunts the Tenno and he also doesn't seem to regard the Tenno's frame as anything more than a tool

In the Second Dream the Stalker is very clearly shocked at the revelation as much as we are. He lowers his sword and looks at himself as he doesn't know what he is anymore. Also what he feels on the Warframes is unknown. Hunhow was the one who presumed that the Warframes were just "useless puppets". The Stalker himself is supposedly a rogue Warframe.

14 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

Even the breaking of War could be the Tenno's desperation powering through.

It's already been established that the Tenno cannot control the Warframe when they are not physically inside it or in physical contact with it. Once the Tenno leaves the from it  stands ram-rod stiff and doesn't move. We can't command it to go anywhere, it doesn't do anything. If it was just the Tenno's desperation, the scene wouldn't have been set up in such a way where it makes it clear that the Operator is completely incapacitated and the Warframe twitches, as if it's slowly regaining control of itself and then taking out the sword.

18 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

I don't see them as truly aware without the Operator's involvement

Your frame at the end of the Second Dream was aware that breaking the sword would stop Stalker. The Rhino Prime codex shows that the creature recognised one of the scientists. That sounds aware to me. The Stalker himself is quite possibly a Tenno-less frame.

22 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

Umbra? All we know is that they're drastically different than the regular frames in some way. Sentience could be that difference. Or it could be something else. DE's refuses to tell us until we finally get Umbra Excalibur in game.

What makes Umbra so special will have to be seen when the quest comes out. But sentience is probably not it, seeing as all of this lore and examples about the frames not being just hollow flesh suits. All in all, there is a lot of evidence pointing to the Warframes not simply being puppets and are actual beings in their own right.

We'll have to see. 

IMO it would be incredibly boring for the Warframes not to be sentient, since they are the main point of the game.