Dual Daggers: Time for some love

[Cytobel]

I'm looking at some of the weapons in Warframe I haven't used in a few years now, and I see Dual Daggers are really notably screwed.  No range, slow attack speed, some ANCIENT stances (and a tolerable modern one), and nothing to make them stand out against Fist, Sparring, and/or Claw weapons in a favorable manner ( because, TRUST ME, they stand out in a VERY negative way).

I'm not saying Dual Daggers are utterly unusable, just that they're largely useless past level 30ish.  The Sai daggers (can't recall the name, too lazy to look it up) carry better than their brethren to be sure, but I'm really wishing I had some method of using my Fang Primes or something similar out at the Sorties.

I would love to have another Dual Dagger choice in the mix as well, provided the category received a bit of love.  Stances and attack speed in general are somewhat lacking, there is no damage to speak of, nor much crit/status chance in the category.

Isn't it past time for some love for Dual Daggers, nearly 3 years after Damage 2.0?

[Ayumi14]

Daggers and dual daggers one of the mostly unused weapon families because there is no real uses. The things you told about them are up nowadays and still these cannot stagger enemies so any enemy can beat you in melee if your weapon is slow. The single daggers a bit better but these are beaten by the zaws which looks just superior version of daggers. These weapons needs some tweaks and additional roles beyond the finisher type. Most of the stances are bad and not really helps to these weapons. If they revert the speed nerf on daggers then maybe these could be more useful but these needs more than speed.

[Bronjun]

Hek, if dual daggers get a buff in stats I would start using them again... Frost Prime with Fang Prime was my go-to fashion loadout. 

 

[Sziklamester]

I just leave this as a reminder.

[Bronjun]

2 minutes ago, Sziklamester said:

I just leave this as a reminder.

Nice macro 

[taiiat]

yes, Dual Daggers compared to what's available thesedays are quite bland and do not stand out at all.

 

in the meantime of awaiting that to no longer be the case though, Ether Daggers are BY FAR. the best Dual Daggers in the game. Okina are alright but they're much less apt at applying Slash Status than Ether Daggers and as such are less effective.

and as you see earlier, Fang were very good once upon a time. when they were comprised entirely of Armor Piercing Damage, which at the time was one of the 4 best Damage Types in the game (out of the like 30 we had at the time).

[Cytobel]

2 hours ago, Ayumi14 said:

Daggers and dual daggers one of the mostly unused weapon families because there is no real uses. The things you told about them are up nowadays and still these cannot stagger enemies so any enemy can beat you in melee if your weapon is slow. The single daggers a bit better but these are beaten by the zaws which looks just superior version of daggers. These weapons needs some tweaks and additional roles beyond the finisher type. Most of the stances are bad and not really helps to these weapons. If they revert the speed nerf on daggers then maybe these could be more useful but these needs more than speed.

The only thing I need to call you out on here is the fact that Single Daggers are really only screwed over by Covert Lethality's rarity and a need for higher Finisher Damage multipliers (yet another stat that NEEDS to be visible in the Arsenal).  Otherwise Single Daggers are solid.  The fact that the Zaw Daggers are the best in category simply makes me wish we could make Dual Dagger Zaws.  Covert Lethality adds a role to Single Daggers.

You are ABSOLUTELY correct, however, in saying there is no role for Dual Daggers.  This may be a stance issue as much as anything.  I think of a reverse-grip style similar to the Dual Swords in .hack//G.U. or FF9's daggers and imagine wide, sweeping strikes with good crowd-control and speed.  This would mean buffing base range slightly as well, but I think it'd work.  Hell, I could really get behind some multi-hit mechanic being thrown in there too.  I just want something that's similar in utility to Dual Swords, but is more focused on brutality.

Honestly, I've really just been playing too many JRRPs and I'm suffering from the "I wants".  Doesn't mean Dual Daggers don't need some love.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Cytobel

[Ayumi14]

18 hours ago, Cytobel said:

The only thing I need to call you out on here is the fact that Single Daggers are really only screwed over by Covert Lethality's rarity and a need for higher Finisher Damage multipliers (yet another stat that NEEDS to be visible in the Arsenal).  Otherwise Single Daggers are solid.  The fact that the Zaw Daggers are the best in category simply makes me wish we could make Dual Dagger Zaws.  Covert Lethality adds a role to Single Daggers.

You are ABSOLUTELY correct, however, in saying there is no role for Dual Daggers.  This may be a stance issue as much as anything.  I think of a reverse-grip style similar to the Dual Swords in .hack//G.U. or FF9's daggers and imagine wide, sweeping strikes with good crowd-control and speed.  This would mean buffing base range slightly as well, but I think it'd work.  Hell, I could really get behind some multi-hit mechanic being thrown in there too.  I just want something that's similar in utility to Dual Swords, but is more focused on brutality.

Honestly, I've really just been playing too many JRRPs and I'm suffering from the "I wants".  Doesn't mean Dual Daggers don't need some love.

You are right with this. That would be a really nice to know the finisher multipiers and if a dagger can stag enemies or knock it a little. In the damage 1.0 the daggers weren't so strong but they were much faster than nowadays and the devs nerfed the speed for purposes but then with the stances they tried to readd something. The gnashing stance for example is less likely to me because the fang cannot use it well yet it's natural stance. The idea behind the stance was cool but for me better if just not put that stance into it because the animation is slow and the daggers cannot stag at all so a charger for example can beat you if you aren't enough fast. That is a fact you cannot speed up your dagger because the only way to get raw speed is the fury-primed fury to fang which has no status and nor have enough crit chance so not berserker viable.

The daggers mostly could fit for stealth playstyles when you use bows (snipers should have been there) and secondaries with silencer. The dagger finisher could be better than the other categories in order to be more useful. The single daggers feels more faster than the dual counterparts and that is sad just because you use 2 dagger then your attack animation slower.

Swords and dual swords are better in any way because the speed is there, better range and mostly have better damage output and importantly the swords can stag your enemies which means if you hit constantly then they cannot hit you. Daggers need this aswell or just speed them up a bit to be useful. 

Also if they just add new stances or make common stances to all weapon types and each category given 5 common new stances and few higher then it would be much better the choice. 

I am not really a chanelling type melee user but the stances affects the normal attacks aswell and some stance are just abysmal.

PS: What you think is could be the multistrike like multishot on secondaries-primaries.

 

Edited January 5, 2018 by Ayumi14

[LinXiaoWong]

There are a lot weapons which out dated or just much weaker than the good and non meta but close to meta weapons. Daggers are suffering mostly with the bad stances, the no staggering option, the bad animation (speed), and the fact the zaws produce better daggers than the original. If the daggers can get some extra range, partial staggering, better finisher multipier plus stances which have good speed animations, then the daggers and dual daggers are could be again a popular choice against many type of enemies. 

However I have issues with the sparring and the other type weapons because most of them missing the staggering too and you risk a lot when you go to close range and simply an orthos prime or guandao can does better job in safe range. I would like also the martial arts implementations when you can disarm your opponents or knock them down. Without using any weapon and just your frame bare hands. They are masters of weapons but if they lose their weapons then they are nothing which is weird a bit. 

[Cytobel]

@Ayumi14:  Multistrike means multiple hits per melee key press.  Think of the quick melee on Tempo Royale, and how the second attack is a double strike.  That's what I'm thinking.  Daggers and Dual Daggers should be seeing 2+ strikes per attack in many animations (purely IMO).

@LinXiaoWong:  I agree, melee and disarming foes go together quite naturally.  I think this could be a thing to have added at some point for certain, but I'm not really applying any thought power to it right now.  I want to have something worthwhile to say on the matter before I really weigh in on it.

[ZeyhmaniBormahu]

Staggering on daggers would be nice. My favorite dagger is the karyst and not just because of toxin damage but it can be very fast with it's stance and with a simple fury on it. The only problems with the crit-status levels are low and daggers spcially dual variants not really excells in the stagger and speed (animation) part. What you guys above me wrote are interesting and would be nice addition but I guess we will wait another couple of years before they will touch them normally.

[Rikimaru_dota]

I am triggered because my fav weapon style the dagger backstabber style.

[voltocitygel]

Fang prime are beautiful, and I love to use them. Too bad I’m better off point blank charging my dread to shoot the guy then using them. Just saying, for the sake of balance, melee should out dps almost any weapon except shotguns at point blank range. Because otherwise, you know, there’s no point. (Besides fun, but that’s only applicable in lower level missions. It’s hard to make fun builds work in higher level.)

[(PSN)MrNishi]

Dual Daggers already have innate multi-strike, like each attack counts as more than one instance of damage.

They suffer from abysmal Range, and community unfavorable stats.

If Zaw Dual Daggers are stat relative to Zaw Single Daggers then they will be extremely strong with innate multi-strike and improved range.

@Cytobel

Contrary to Wiki

Melee Finisher Damage multipliers (non-Ground Finishers)* was made the same for weapon classes, except Kesheg and Broken Scepter, in GU 15.13 

• Finisher damage will now increase based on weapon rank and enemy level. Finisher Damage for stealth kills capped at 8x damage with max rank melee weapon!

 

Wiki keeps getting changed back to:

Stealth Attack Damage = Weapon Damage × Stealth Multiplier × Weapon Multiplier

• 3.0x Weapon Multiplier for Daggers, Dual Daggers, Polearms, and Staves.
• 6.0x Weapon Multiplier for Hammers.
• 4.0x Weapon Multiplier for all other weapon types

 

Currently it is easy to test Finisher damage Multiplier scaling with Melee weapon rank because you can buy a Fresh Skana/Mk-1 Furax/Mk-1 Bo and compare to unranked to a level 30 to verify that the wiki Melee Stealth Finishers Multipliers are incorrect.

Because to finisher multipliers we're normalized between weapon classes: there really should not be a need for Aresenal UI Entry. (Could just simply be a Codex Entry for players to reference, just like how the Unalerted/Stealth Melee bonus is currently 800%)

[Cytobel]

@(PS4)MrNishi:  Right, I keep forgetting about the changes made to finishers.  I really don't care for them personally.  I feel as if some weapons need to be able to capitalize on openings in an enemy's defenses.  That's the whole "backstab" mentality talking though.

I think that being able to take advantage of finishers and Status procs would fit Dual Daggers rather well, but that's just an opinion.  Really they just need to have something that works for them.  I find myself missing Charge Attacks again...

[Cytobel]

@Sziklamester:  That vid brought back GOOD memories...

I miss that era of Dual Daggers.