Ember's WoF discussion; Does it deserve the hate?

[--RV--Goddess]

So, As a disabled (can't use left arm/hand) Warframe player, embers WoF(with the augment) and the USEFULNESS it brings allows me to kill things, run missions, farm materials, even do mastery tests I wouldn't have been able to do without her 4. I greatly appreciate her 4 and its ability. The way it is now is why I'm able to play warframe as efficiently as I can. 

[----Legacy----]

14 minutes ago, RayxAyanami said:

SO basically people don't want Crowd control ;v

I don't mind crowd control as long as it doesn't disrupt my game and keeps the targets in place. Ember knocks enemies down (moving their hitbox to the ground) while limbo freezes not only the enemies but anything that's flying when stasis is cast. Frames like rhino, volt, harrow, nyx, slow nova, etc. offer a way more pleasant cc since they won't force you into melee (like limbo) and won't force enemies to the ground without previous warning (like ember).

[R3b3ll10n90s]

35 minutes ago, RayxAyanami said:

SO basically people don't want Crowd control ;v

CC likes Chaos or Molecular Prime is fine but it's not ok with Trolorift

[Kjahla81]

5 minutes ago, Prince90000 said:

please next time read patch notes or look at the screen while doing fissures, the fissures spawn corrupted enemies instantly now, dont need to wait for enemies to get corrupted anymore.

 

It depends on the mission type. If I play non-endless missons yes they spawn faster. On endless mission that's not always the case. I

[R3b3ll10n90s]

32 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Ember, Saryn and Banshee are the most annoying frames to play with if you just want to play. They are very good when you need to lvl your weapons but thats just it. At everything else they are more annoying than Limbo. Limbo at least lets you play the game, granted he forces you to mele but you can play, not watch. Frames like Octavia or even Equinox are not so disruptive. Octavias mallet is line of sight skill and Equinox has to work for that dmg. DE could change the other frames to work similar to those 2. Room clears? yes please. Map wiping without any effort? Hell no.

Ember and Saryn? Nope. I brought both of them to Uranus and lazy meta doesn't work. Saryn's cancer surprisingly has limited range and it don't expand, on the other hand, Banshee's Orz has limited range that expand every second.

[MrInubis]

2 minutes ago, R3b3ll10n90s said:

Ember and Saryn? Nope. I brought both of them to Uranus and lazy meta doesn't work. Saryn's cancer surprisingly has limited range and it don't expand, on the other hand, Banshee's Orz has limited range that expand every second.

Yea good point, lets take the biggest tilleset there is and say "it doesnt work". The build also matters, My Saryn has 265 range, it can cover whole hydron. I could do the same with Ember but i didnt bother to forma her.

[Sziklamester]

All frames getting the hate which have area of effect type ablities. Limbo gets it because the cataclysm and because he can banish you (that is fixed just not many knows), ember in low levels kill the fun from others, equinox does this too in higher scales, saryn with the spore spam, mesa with the peacemaker, and maybe the others can be mentionned like nezha, volt, frost, maybe chroma banshee or mag but these still not on that level. 

That is normal if the players want to play the gam and kill some but certain frames interupt this and these frames can keep their abilities work long. Not all of these are op or have scaling abilities but purely annoying. These frames needs a rework in their abilities to not be overused and kill everything instant on a certain levels. Instead of this they could scale to higher levels and be useful in "end game".

Hard to do but something possible can be done.

[Voltage]

29 minutes ago, kuciol said:

I could do the same with Ember but i didnt bother to forma her.

And how do you know it does work with your magical 0 forma Steel Charge Ember? Ember falls off very fast, and the majority of players cheesing through tiles are using weapons and WoF, not just WoF. It actually only becomes a "lazy meta" on planets like saturn. Anything higher than level 40, and you have to use weapons or another frame to effectively wipe missions. If you are going to enter an Ember thread, you should probably know how it works, and 0 forma does not imply that.

[MrInubis]

Just now, --Q--Voltage said:

And how do you know it does work with your magical 0 forma Steel Charge Ember? Ember falls off very fast, and the majority of players cheesing through tiles are using weapons and WoF, not just WoF. It actually only becomes a "lazy meta" on planets like saturn. Anything higher than level 40, and you have to use weapons or another frame to effectively wipe missions. If you are going to enter an Ember thread, you should probably know how it works, and 0 forma does not imply that.

Dude just join hydron and you will see how it works. If 0 forma works on saturn than 4 forma would work even better with more power or range. Her 2 also buffs her 4 if you didnt know that. No matter what you say you wont change reality. It works and ive seen it work.

[Voltage]

12 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Dude just join hydron and you will see how it works. If 0 forma works on saturn than 4 forma would work even better with more power or range. Her 2 also buffs her 4 if you didnt know that. No matter what you say you wont change reality. It works and ive seen it work.

I am not trying to change reality. I do know that her Accelerant buffs World on Fire because enemies take more fire damage from weapons and abilities. You do know World on Fire has an enemy cap which other frames do not. She is extremely balanced and not even close to overpowered. I have seen Embers running level 100 exterminates and World on Fire barely does any killing. I am not saying Ember can't do level 40+ missions, but World on Fire alone cannot. It doesn't scale, and it falls off quickly. Now, I am not going to waste my time arguing about Ember with someone when they have said in writing that they haven't invested a single forma into her. Just watching pubs doesn't paint a full picture of her capabilities and disadvantages.

[(XBOX)weedyodaa]

19 hours ago, EmilotMargus said:

Eh, that means we should be happy and accepting with any bugs in the game as well. Besides, I have no real problem with Ember as long as the Tenno controlling it doesn't just run to the end and say "OMG you guys are slow hurry up". 

Trust me, I'm an &#!, but not that big of an &#!.

[Justice_Ember]

Sorry, I could only read up to page 2, but basically the consensus is that matchmaking is the problem, right? Having a high level player, with a high forma build next to a group of new players kills their enjoyment, that's the gist of it, right?

I'm a vocal supporter of Ember and her current state, the only reason Ember gets hated on it's her utility as a map wiper, one or two formas and you have a build to clear level 30 or less alerts without worries, but the same map wipe can be done with an Ignis and a Loki.

If anything when considering what's broken on WoF, Heat damage should be looked at, if it changed to a percentage of weapon damage over time, similar to slash, or even a decreasing damage that took a percentage of health and stacked it could work better for "balancing" her without having to use the rework nerfhammer.

[Tora.Prime]

4 hours ago, kuciol said:

Frames like Octavia or even Equinox are not so disruptive

but they CAN SCALE, ember, saryn and banshee don't, so that will be worst

[Tsardova]

Nope......

She's queen in low level mob clearing next to Equinox but that's about it. Her kit falls off past standard starchart mission and by that point you'll need the players' aptitude in movement mechanic, etc to keep her alive long enough to help in meaningful ways.

She just suffers from ease of use and access that newcomers or those who just sticks to lower tier missions salt over not being able to contribute in select few mission types (even though there are other ways to contribute to the mission bar exterminate).

[(XBOX)weedyodaa]

After reviewing the topics at hand, all the replies sent, I appreciate all of the constructive, and.. Not so constructive [and some of it was rather off topic] criticism. I looked over the fact about how it was with playing with lower MR players, and overall, I think playing lower leveled missions as an Ember with players who are a lower level is a bit of a jerk move, but not unless you're doing it if they say so. If that's the case, by all means, go for it. But what I personally don't understand is that when I do speedrun through an extermination, the lower levels would occasionally actually thank me for dashing through the mission, and they still can pick up what's left of the different enemies who died, then wait for extraction. They get what they need, and then everyone seems to be happy. Although, that being said, I'll join a game on Hydron for XP or Akkad for a quick & ez credit farm, and I'll sometimes get a person to call me out for it. I ignore them most of the time and carry on, because apparently the fact that they're getting mad at me for getting lazy kills which helps contribute for the team makes me the villain.. However that works, I guess. Sure, sure, one could argue "Hey, let us get some kills, dude," and I'll actually turn it off unless I need to keep myself alive. Because a majority of us know that, of course, Ember is a squishy frame. That may be true, that I am getting kills, but they're still getting the XP from the affinity I gain from my kills, so I don't understand why people would get mad, even though they're benefitting from the affinity sharing. 

 

Along with that, carrying on with the "press 4 to win" [or Y, for me], there's a whole bunch of Warframes that have an amazing 4th ability for crowd control, or "nuke" abilities, there's a few that have similar traits. One being Banshee, that I've mentioned before [although I prefer her sonar build much more], or Vauban. Sure, it isn't what people would call a nuke, but it's very efficient, since it goes splended with a Tigris and sucks all character into one spot and I blast them into oblivion. I simply don't understand why people would get mad about the big bad ember [who doesn't scale very high with enemies at around level 80] gets more kills then someone else while they still gain from it. 

 

Another point I saw that was a bit off topic was that she needed a nerf, or discussed why she didn't need a nerf. She needs to at least stay the way she is. She doesn't deserve a nerf, she's fine as she is. What I think would benefit was a bit of a rework, not so much a buff, directly, but a rework so her WoF scales with enemy level. I didn't say buff directly because in a way, it would indirectly buff it. How it'd work would be the same as how other Warframe's abilities scale. A perfect example; Octavia. From what I know, all her abilities scale, and that's what gives her the ability to have absurd end-game material.

 

So, I propose an idea. Give Ember a bit of scaling with enemies. But not absurd levels, give her a limit, so she's not ultimately broken and keen for end-game. I'd say the scaling stops for around levels 120, but it might go higher depending on your Power strength. I'm open to hear if anyone has any ideas for my own. 

[Jeon-Rammbo]

My question is:  why hate on anything in this game. 

It always goes back to - expect anything when you have gameplay set to public. Deal with it or play solo / friends / invite only. 

More than a few people I've run into are annoying - I either ignore the antics and finish the mission or just abort and go about my business.  Beautiful thing about this game - it really doesn't matter if you abort the mission.  

[Bao]

Ember's WoF  can work in one of a few ways - trash mob clearing, moderate range for mid tier missions, or aoe CC for higher level content. Does it deserve the hate? Mostly yes, depending if your teammates are new and want to experience the game, or if it's spamming for an alert/fissure and most everyone in the squad just wants to get to the end. In mid tier content, it's mixed between yes and no. She excels at clearing mobs then, but stronger units will knock you on your &#! if you're not careful. High level content? If they are a decent Ember, then WoF should be operated as a CC for the team, and shouldn't be super long range to prevent mob spawn disruptions. 

 

I have a lot of time working with Ember/Ember Prime (she composes more than 1/3 of all my playtime in the frames stats). Does Wof deserve the hate? For her kill-everything build? Probably. Overall, no. There are far more efficient frames for mob clearing like Equinox, Saryn, Banshee, and Mesa primarily. Equinox and Ember share the same mobility, but equinox covers a larger range. Mesa scales off her pistols, and will kill everything that reveals a weak point almost instantly. Ember can't do that. Saryn spreads toxin like butter on bread, and weapons can augment that where Ember has flat damage. On defense, Banshee has a similar struggle ember has with high armored units but clears all other mobs faster. 

[(PSN)Valfrekr]

On 1/9/2018 at 12:00 PM, (Xbox One)Mythical Warden said:

Yes. I'm the boogyman that creeps around the corner, stealing kills on Hydron, keeping the tenno on edge as I throw down pizzas, getting quick and easy energy with a build for WoF that lasts for an eternity. Yeah, I'm that guy. Jokes aside, does she really deserve all the hate she recieves from other players? Me, being a personal fan of playing Ember, find her fun and lazy. Some complain about that, but what about the Nuke Banshee? Why hate on an Ember when you can't even see the enemies leave their spawn areas from a screeching Banshee when she can effortlessly finish a FULL game of Hydron for about 10 or 15 waves in around 5-10 minutes? Maybe less? Anyways, I've played multiple games of Hydron, only to be called out for having a build for my WoF, and I just tell them the same thing. Don't hate the player, hate the game. People shouldn't get mad for how something was programmed to function that way, and for me to get called out for it seems unnecessary. 

I tend not to care at all. I go to Hydron to power level my new weapons or frames. As long as I'm getting XP, I'm good with whatever. Just don't block my ability to effect the mobs the way Limbo does, and you'll get no argument from me,

[ThorienKELL]

I wasn't aware that she gets the "hate" she probably doesn't but stupid threads like this may actually be a catalyst for nerf so I dislike and discourage them. 

This is a game where we have tons of enemies, hordes of monsters, we need frikkin nukers, mass exterminate classes are necessary and most of games of this type have them. If you see ember is not different then any other nuker frame - yes they will get most of kills but that can be an advantage as well making your mission easier or even possible. Her power may be easier to use then others which have been made more complex /setup things (sometimes too complex effectively pushing frame to avoidance as we have with saryn) but her power also doesn't scale, kills mostly trash and when enemies get tougher they poor thru WoF and it has a softcap of how many enemies can it negate at once. 

Ember is beautiful on low tier exterminate missions or when I want to do some lazy focus farming, when I'm drunk or tired or just want to be left alone by mobs so I can search for vaults /medallions or whatever. Message is - leave my ember alone. Don't look at her, and don't speak, pretend she's not even there. It's for the best. 

[Donnell]

On 1/9/2018 at 5:10 PM, Cryptix123 said:

I hate her because new players don't get to play the game while she's around. I remember the survival where I never saw a living enemy, just corpses and damage numbers in the distance.

This guy got it although it goes the same for regular players too.

Can't remember anyone moaning about speed in game but I came to play.. shoot stuff.. not hold the Forward key and walk from one end to the other while everything dies. Ember denies this for everyone else.

[MrInubis]

8 hours ago, --Q--Voltage said:

I am not trying to change reality. I do know that her Accelerant buffs World on Fire because enemies take more fire damage from weapons and abilities. You do know World on Fire has an enemy cap which other frames do not. She is extremely balanced and not even close to overpowered. I have seen Embers running level 100 exterminates and World on Fire barely does any killing. I am not saying Ember can't do level 40+ missions, but World on Fire alone cannot. It doesn't scale, and it falls off quickly. Now, I am not going to waste my time arguing about Ember with someone when they have said in writing that they haven't invested a single forma into her. Just watching pubs doesn't paint a full picture of her capabilities and disadvantages.

Dude we are not talking about if she is op or not here. We all know that she is not. The problem is her 4 is just as annoying to play with as limbos and banshees. They dont let anyone play by killing everything you can see. They need rework not nerf. End of story. Learn to read.

Edited January 10, 2018 by kuciol

[Voltage]

38 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Dude we are not talking about if she is op or not here. We all know that she is not. The problem is her 4 is just as annoying to play with as limbos and banshees. They dont let anyone play by killing everything you can see. They need rework not nerf. End of story. Learn to read.

Reworking World on Fire means nerfing it. If DE gave you something just as powerful as World on Fire, people would complain that is annoying too. You are requesting DE rework EVERY SINGLE AOE Warframe so that it caters to you and allows you to "participate". It is a PvE game. Some players will always stomp a lobby. Spiraling down this "This frame steals my fun" path is why Ash is now horrible. Requiring multiple button presses and effort to do an easy job is unfun and boring to a majority (see Miasma and Mag). Why should Warframes suffer because of a group of people who get mad when a lobby is not "fair" and letting them kill equally to everyone else. So many things can wipe maps better than Ember, but why is Ember in the headlights? Many people enjoy playing efficiently. This whole issue is within matchmaking, not Ember. If you don't want a certain Warframe in your lobby, go solo or with a pre-made team. Ember is not the issue here, it is the community and the "we need fairness" mentality. P.S I can read.

Edited January 10, 2018 by --Q--Voltage

[MrInubis]

Just now, --Q--Voltage said:

Reworking World on Fire means nerfing it. You are requesting DE rework EVERY SINGLE AOE Warframe so that it caters to you and allows you to "participate". It is a PvE game. Some players will always stomp a lobby. Spiraling down this "This frame steals my fun" path is why Ash is now horrible. Why should Warframes suffer because of a group of people who get mad when a lobby is not "fair" and letting them kill equally to everyone else. So many things can wipe maps better than Ember, but why is Ember in the headlights. Many people enjoy playing efficiently. This whole issue is within matchmaking, not Ember. If you don't want a certain Warframe in your lobby, go solo or with a pre-made team. Ember is not the issue here, it is the community and the "we need fairness" mentality. P.S I can read.

I(t doesnt mean nerfing. You read what you want to see. She cannot scale BECAUSE of her WoF, she would be to busted if she would. I also dont care about fariness, i described what problem i have and you by some reason took it so personal that somebody may not like Ember. I want her to have scaling dmg but not press 4 and run to extraction. Thats how 90% of games look like with ember. I also dont care that she cannot do it on sorties, she can do it up to sedna and that means 80% of the game and thats the problem here. I dont see any topics about Equinox, Nidus or Octavia, dont you think its strange? You know that people want to play warframe and not running simulator right? And please dont start this "play solo" bull..... Running from problems is never a solution.

[Heatnix.]

I just feel WoF is extremely boring. It really brings nothing but a small, pointless sense of accomplishment to low level players.

The problem isn't so much the skill but Ember overall. Her age is showing really hardcore lately considering DE has done a lot more creative things as of late and pushing their skills further and further. Ember now feels like a relic that can do "a thing" and that's about it. She really has no depth or flare (no pun intended).

[(PSN)supernova_girlie]

I only get disgusted with Ember when it's an MR20+ on E-Prime or something low like that. Maturity allows me to understand that even though I can wipe the entire kindertenno map, it's imprudent and a bit selfish to do so. A "Veteran" should be the first person to realize how gameplay can impact other players' experience and since you've done this all before why the rush?  How does it hurt you if you let the new tenno get the majority of the kills while you stand back as support in case something goes wrong? I'm serious. One of the most rewarding experiences on Warframe is to go to low level missions with Trinity or Nekros!

I get annoyed with Embers on fissures, but it seems like lately if you go away from them, the reactants will fall for them and then you can run over and pick them up. However, on Akkad/Kala-azar defense fissures it's 2 reactants per wave while WoF is going.

I'm sick of quake Banshees on Hydron. I didn't mind it that much on Draco back in the day when the affinity range was greater. Now it seems that my weapon might go up half a level in 5 waves even with an affinity booster if there's a quaking Banshee. I use quake pretty much when there's, simultaneously, a ton of enemies and someone is reviving another player. I don't get why people abuse it, most of the time it takes out low level enemies and then we have to go run around to all the spawn points to take out the Hyekka hag and big Nox-eous. It might be better if they let the enemies get a bit closer, I think.