Nerfs don't fix poor development

[Fallen_Echo]

23 hours ago, Genitive said:

And poorly written threads don't help the devs improve the game.

Things don't get nerfed because they kill things to fast, as you claim, but because some of them promote passive gameplay. Which should not be the case.

Threads like these only prove that some skills are allowed to linger in an unfinished state for too long,

What about arca plasmors nerf? The changes on the knell when it arrived? Adding damage falloff to secondary shotguns? 

[Genitive]

3 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

What about arca plasmors nerf? The changes on the knell when it arrived? Adding damage falloff to secondary shotguns? 

Do you mean this?

Headshots no longer deal bonus damage.

 

• The Arca Plasmor was designed to hit multiple targets with a high-status chance, but with wide wave projectiles and inherent punch-through, a single shot could result in multiple headshots. With it being a shotgun, it was never intended to behave as a precision weapon, and the bonus pushed it too far out of that mold.

It's pretty self-explanatory to me.

Adding damage falloff to secondary shotguns could have been added simply to make them consistent with primary shotguns.

I haven't used Knell so I'd rather not talk about it, but wasn't it bugged? At least that's what I found out.

 

I don't agree with every change the devs make, but they are usually well explained from their point of view and thus provide some justification as to why some changes were implemented. So it's not like they nerf stuff just to mess with us. Also, we can disagree in a civil manner rather than make rage threads.

Anyway, I still stand by my original post.

[DiabolusUrsus]

On 2/5/2018 at 1:36 PM, (Xbox One)Jimmy Voorhees said:

Dear DE,

I have been playing warframe since my friend showed it to me in alpha on PC. I've loved every step of the way and until recently, agreed with 99% of your decisions on the game.

Recently, however, you've made several changes to several frames that are damning to the design, play style, enjoyment, and time investment of your players because they're " killing things too fast".

That's a terrible logic. If Ember is killing mass numbers with"world on fire" develope enemies to deal with that.

No, because the problem is passive play. The solution would have been reworking energy economy to no longer support perma-casting ults and CC.

On 2/5/2018 at 1:36 PM, (Xbox One)Jimmy Voorhees said:

IfChroma is murdering your eidolons too fast, then perhaps you should have made them more challenging.

No, because then you need Chroma to deal with Eidolons. The fight is already a bit of a slog without him.

On 2/5/2018 at 1:36 PM, (Xbox One)Jimmy Voorhees said:

If gara was too good at defending, maybe you should have actually play tested it prior to release.

More like they should have known by now not to use extended periods of invulnerability given what they had to go through to address Snow Globe and Iron Skin back in the day.

Not too far off though.

On 2/5/2018 at 1:36 PM, (Xbox One)Jimmy Voorhees said:

Your pattern of punishing players for your shortcommings is ridiculous. How am I, as a clan leader, supposed to guide new players in building up frames when you seem to change the entire playstyle of a frame every week? How am I going to convince people not to quit the game when the frame they proudly built now must be completely redone because YOU can't plan your content around the frames that existed BEFORE that content.

You're doing it backward DE, and you're frustrating your players while you do it.

Nerfs are not punishment. They are tweaks.

If a nerf is so heavy-handed that a Frame is crippled, then there needs to be a buff. These would happen faster if people aware of the problem generated constructive and demonstrable criticism.

With regards to "undoing" builds:

If you invest so many Forma in something that a single change requires reworking your polarities, that's on you. It's the sole (inadequate IMO) balancing factor to Forma. Going too far limits your options.

The fact of the matter is that you don't need so many Forma that you are locked into a specific build to be effective. If you want that extra power you have to accept the risks.

THAT SAID,

It would be nice to see DE churn out nerfs that actually address and resolve the problem instead of band-aids that don't really fix anything.

It would also be nice to see neglected items and powers get buffs sooner rather than later.

As someone else said, my main complaint is that these changes are so sporadic on top of being hit-and-miss. They need to be more regular and attentive.

[(XBOX)Ivar Azrael]

1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

No, because the problem is passive play. The solution would have been reworking energy economy to no longer support perma-casting ults and CC.

No, because then you need Chroma to deal with Eidolons. The fight is already a bit of a slog without him.

More like they should have known by now not to use extended periods of invulnerability given what they had to go through to address Snow Globe and Iron Skin back in the day.

Not too far off though.

Nerfs are not punishment. They are tweaks.

If a nerf is so heavy-handed that a Frame is crippled, then there needs to be a buff. These would happen faster if people aware of the problem generated constructive and demonstrable criticism.

With regards to "undoing" builds:

If you invest so many Forma in something that a single change requires reworking your polarities, that's on you. It's the sole (inadequate IMO) balancing factor to Forma. Going too far limits your options.

The fact of the matter is that you don't need so many Forma that you are locked into a specific build to be effective. If you want that extra power you have to accept the risks.

THAT SAID,

It would be nice to see DE churn out nerfs that actually address and resolve the problem instead of band-aids that don't really fix anything.

It would also be nice to see neglected items and powers get buffs sooner rather than later.

As someone else said, my main complaint is that these changes are so sporadic on top of being hit-and-miss. They need to be more regular and attentive.

I addressed the finer points of the frames in a post toward the end of page1

[(PSN)teacup775]

On 2/5/2018 at 1:36 PM, (Xbox One)Jimmy Voorhees said:

...

Recently, however, you've made several changes to several frames that are damning to the design, play style, enjoyment, and time investment of your players because they're " killing things too fast".

In Chroma’s case there was some really dubious coding. I think the changes to frames that simply camp and wipe entire rooms is warranted. But you are right that this shows QA limitations and shortsightedness on the dev side.

There are lots of gamers who relish figuring out how to make broken builds. Like white hats in security, DE should consider using people like this during dev. And during fixes.

 

For the tera fight i will bet another broken combo will be found. Mechanics for boss fights that require a mix of ability types fixes bullet sponge mechanic. Tera is a decent fight but in the end his joints are just bullet sponges.

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)Jimmy Voorhees said:

I addressed the finer points of the frames in a post toward the end of page1

I read what you wrote, and I really don't think it addresses the concerns I raised.

• Passive play should not be encouraged, and should be squashed where applicable. However, it is unfortunate that DE is playing whack-a-mole with symptoms instead of addressing the root cause of the problem.
• You shouldn't balance enemies around a singular Frame's ability to deal damage because then it limits character choice and devalues character diversity. The idea of an enemy cycling randomly through different weaknesses sounds terribly annoying to fight, and I for one despise the notion of "puzzle solving" enemies with specific team compositions.
• If you over-invest into Forma you have to understand the risk of needing to re-Forma when something changes. Sorry, but that's how it is.

[(XBOX)Ivar Azrael]

1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I read what you wrote, and I really don't think it addresses the concerns I raised.

• Passive play should not be encouraged, and should be squashed where applicable. However, it is unfortunate that DE is playing whack-a-mole with symptoms instead of addressing the root cause of the problem.
• You shouldn't balance enemies around a singular Frame's ability to deal damage because then it limits character choice and devalues character diversity. The idea of an enemy cycling randomly through different weaknesses sounds terribly annoying to fight, and I for one despise the notion of "puzzle solving" enemies with specific team compositions.
• If you over-invest into Forma you have to understand the risk of needing to re-Forma when something changes. Sorry, but that's how it is.

·Formas should be refunded in a redesign. That's just a courtesy they should extend to people. I'd rather not have a frame with 10 Formas as i won't remember how many it took to make the current build.

· I'm not saying balance it around a frame, as this nerf won't fix the problem at all. My alliance already has a work around that will be even worse.lol. I'm saying they need to fix the problem not put a band aid on it.

· I already offrered a solution to the passive play issue.

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)Jimmy Voorhees said:

·Formas should be refunded in a redesign. That's just a courtesy they should extend to people. I'd rather not have a frame with 10 Formas as i won't remember how many it took to make the current build.

Why? Possible changes should be something you account for when deciding how many Forma go into a build. I refrain from going >6 polarities for that reason, and 6 is high for me. If you go to 8x Forma locking yourself into a single build that's on you. Perhaps have an option for "extracting" Forma at high cost, but there's no reason why it should be free every time they make a balance change.

What I would like to see is a new gear progression system allowing players to upgrade favorite weapons to be high-tier by investing Forma, with players getting refunded a built Forma for each star removed from their stuff. Then they could choose to re-forma polarities or upgrade base stats with each use. Perhaps offer a limited non-tradeable "super Forma" that doesn't reset item rank to avoid making players re-grind everything.

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)Jimmy Voorhees said:

· I'm not saying balance it around a frame, as this nerf won't fix the problem at all. My alliance already has a work around that will be even worse.lol. I'm saying they need to fix the problem not put a band aid on it.

If you say that the Eidolon should be buffed (made more challenging) to compensate for Chroma's broken Vex Armor scaling, then you are suggesting balancing around a single 'Frame. Stahp. I don't want to fight an enemy who requires Vex Armor to go down in a reasonable amount of time. Just make Vex Armor more reasonable, as they have done.

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)Jimmy Voorhees said:

· I already offrered a solution to the passive play issue.

And I think your solution is unsatisfactory. Running in circles is not that much different than standing in place, and forcing a certain distance in one direction cripples Ember for defense-oriented objectives.

I would much rather see an Ember with better damage scaling, improved Fireball/Fire Blast, and reasonable energy economy preventing long-term use of WoF without interruption. Re-working the energy system to prevent power spam would have the added benefit of preventing other wide-AOE killing casters from becoming the next problem in line after Ember.

[Fallen_Echo]

7 hours ago, Genitive said:

Do you mean this?

Headshots no longer deal bonus damage.

 

• The Arca Plasmor was designed to hit multiple targets with a high-status chance, but with wide wave projectiles and inherent punch-through, a single shot could result in multiple headshots. With it being a shotgun, it was never intended to behave as a precision weapon, and the bonus pushed it too far out of that mold.

It's pretty self-explanatory to me.

Adding damage falloff to secondary shotguns could have been added simply to make them consistent with primary shotguns.

I haven't used Knell so I'd rather not talk about it, but wasn't it bugged? At least that's what I found out.

 

I don't agree with every change the devs make, but they are usually well explained from their point of view and thus provide some justification as to why some changes were implemented. So it's not like they nerf stuff just to mess with us. Also, we can disagree in a civil manner rather than make rage threads.

Anyway, I still stand by my original post.

The ignis wasnt designed to be a precision weapon either just as every shotgun ingame and yet they are all capatable of it.

The knell apart from the "bugfix" got several changes what highly decreased its useability.

Many nerfs just get slapped with "this was not planned" and go as bugfixes.

[Mach25]

On 2/5/2018 at 4:45 PM, DSkycroft said:

Ranting won't make them change anything.

Good thing they don't have forums for feedback! That would have been quite a terrible misstep!

On 2/5/2018 at 4:36 PM, (Xbox One)Jimmy Voorhees said:

Dear DE,

....How am I, as a clan leader, supposed to guide new players in building up frames when you seem to change the entire playstyle of a frame every week? How am I going to convince people not to quit the game when the frame they proudly built now must be completely redone because YOU can't plan your content around the frames that existed BEFORE that content.

Hmm...that is a valid point and very good to point out. The understated yet overbearing question is, with these alterations to frames, will formas invested be returned? That is absolutely another issue the DevTeam should keep in mind as they make these changes. This is another reason why I do not like the current forma system as it stands - each investment wipes you back down to level 0. Now, I have to wonder how likely they are to retain new players who have to reinvest time and effort to accommodate these changes? That is additional layer of frustration added to newer players.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Mach25

[Buddhakingpen]

11 hours ago, (Xbox One)Jimmy Voorhees said:

Immunities are not invincibilities but rather waeknesses. In mode X slash damage is best, mode y impact, mode z toxin. Nothing like what you're talking about. Hope that clears it up.

Unless they do away with all AOE abilities their method of nerfing ember is a moot point.

Forcing people to communicate? How awful. Because everything in warframe should be able to be completed by random disorganized teams of new players.

At some point they need to come out with activities just for organized teams and higher level players as both ate getting bored with the game. The eidolons seem to be that, so i was thinking on that mindset.

Ok, a damage type being "best" for a situation, while it wouldnt hurt the fight that much, also wouldnt prevent a chroma from one shotting it. Because chromas buff is stupid strong. They would have to actively make every other damage type besides the one its vulnerable to useless in order to invalidate what a chroma can do. I mean, even if they made it "slash has 200% damage bonus, every other damage type has -75% damage" or some thing like that, chroma would just take 4 shots instead of one. It wouldnt fix anything. Chroma would still be chroma in an eidelon fight, and it would nerf the rest of the cast in comparison.  

I never said ppl shouldnt communicate. I said some players dont want to run premades. You shouldnt HAVE to have friends to play a looter. You'll be splitting your playerbase. I know personally, i enjoy just hopping into warframe, clicking on w/e mission i want, and letting matchmaking do the rest of the work. I'm not trying to spend 20 minutes before missions just to find a team, and i'm not social enough to constantly keep in touch with a group as hardcore as me. Needing communication to complete a goal is fine. Forcing ppl to actually need specific loadouts per player tho? iono seems sketchy. Every other looter almost ever, is equally as playable with, or without friends. All of the content. They already made raids for forced team play. No need to bring that into the rest of the game. Especially for things most players would actually want. 

[DreamsmithJane]

On 2/5/2018 at 1:36 PM, (Xbox One)Jimmy Voorhees said:

Your pattern of punishing players for your shortcommings is ridiculous. How am I, as a clan leader, supposed to guide new players in building up frames when you seem to change the entire playstyle of a frame every week?

Balance changes like that don't come anywhere near every week, for one thing. For another, they usually amount to simple mathematical expressions you can figure out in seconds, so why are you acting like DE is costing you hours of labour with every patch? Many other experienced players stream Warframe, and when newer players come and ask questions, most of them are able to give informative answers on the latest content and updates, on or before the day of their release. If it's so important to you, there is no reason whatsoever that you shouldn't be able to keep up. You're not even on the PC release, where we get hotfixes because oh, enemies are shooting under Gara's wall when it's cast from the air, better make it stretch downward. Or we saw like three new versions of Oberon's Renewal before settling on one. When we do see periods of rapid change, you don't. You see the aftermath. By the time you get an update, plenty of players have already sussed out the implications and spelled it out for you, often in video form. I'm not trying to be condescending, but jeeze, you have it easy.

Your title is incorrect. The entire purpose of balance changes is to correct design shortcomings, and they do. Viewing it as "punishment" when the change is to correct a flaw that worked in your apparent favour (but at the expense of the game's integrity and long-term health) is the ridiculous thing. The game is under active development. It changes over time. You agreed to this when you signed up, and if you were around for the alpha, you've known it for years. Why are you mad?

[(XBOX)Ivar Azrael]

3 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

If you say that the Eidolon should be buffed (made more challenging) to compensate for Chroma's broken Vex Armor scaling, then you are suggesting balancing around a single 'Frame. Stahp. I don't want to fight an enemy who requires Vex Armor to go down in a reasonable amount of time. Just make Vex Armor more reasonable, as they have done.

 

You're missing the point again. Nerfing chroma only fixes him one shotting it right now. When people come up with a replacement (my clan has) the same thing will happen. It's not the frame it's the eidolon encounter that needs work.

You see what I'm saying?

4 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

 

And I think your solution is unsatisfactory. Running in circles is not that much different than standing in place, and forcing a certain distance in one direction cripples Ember for defense-oriented objectives.

I would much rather see an Ember with better damage scaling, improved Fireball/Fire Blast, and reasonable energy economy preventing long-term use of WoF without interruption. Re-working the energy system to prevent power spam would have the added benefit of preventing other wide-AOE killing casters from becoming the next problem in line after Ember.

 

That's fine you can disagree with the semantics of it but we seem to agree the current fix is awful, so I'll take it.

[Himenoinu]

On 2/5/2018 at 11:36 PM, (Xbox One)Jimmy Voorhees said:

Dear DE,

I have been playing warframe since my friend showed it to me in alpha on PC. I've loved every step of the way and until recently, agreed with 99% of your decisions on the game.

Recently, however, you've made several changes to several frames that are damning to the design, play style, enjoyment, and time investment of your players because they're " killing things too fast".

That's a terrible logic. If Ember is killing mass numbers with"world on fire" develope enemies to deal with that. If Chroma is murdering your eidolons too fast, then perhaps you should have made them more challenging. If gara was too good at defending, maybe you should have actually play tested it prior to release.

Your pattern of punishing players for your shortcommings is ridiculous. How am I, as a clan leader, supposed to guide new players in building up frames when you seem to change the entire playstyle of a frame every week? How am I going to convince people not to quit the game when the frame they proudly built now must be completely redone because YOU can't plan your content around the frames that existed BEFORE that content.

You're doing it backward DE, and you're frustrating your players while you do it.

It's what probably made the enemies scaling the way it is today. Not touching the frames. Also, don't tell me you were guiding your clan mates to build Ember for everything up to mid-game and Chroma for the rest. That's just... bad. Taking advantage of one stated problem and building around it for Chroma, while ignoring the conversion of the game from looter-shooter to nose-digging with Ember (and Banshee).

You expect content, thorough testing before releasing of everything, improved loot, improved graphics, improved gameplay, improved comfort levels of your own chair at home. Yesterday. And if it doesn't happen then, it's bad.

So many voices are pointing towards the real problem - enemy scaling - but, from my point of view, it's kinda hard to focus on such a huge task when you have to spend time every month to look out and balance builds that are proving overpowered for various tasks. It's a result you should expect: when you have the variety of weapons, warframes and mods this game provides, there will always be builds that the devs didn't think of (just like it was happening in other games too). Or, if you want them to only release content after it was thoroughly stress-tested, you could prepare for one weapon being released every 5 years, while they test it against every enemy type, on every level range, on every frame and combine it with 3 other, ever-changing, frames having other 3 ever-changing loadouts. What are you talking about?! This isn't D2 with 3 classes and 3 weapons.

[DiabolusUrsus]

5 hours ago, (Xbox One)Jimmy Voorhees said:

You're missing the point again. Nerfing chroma only fixes him one shotting it right now. When people come up with a replacement (my clan has) the same thing will happen. It's not the frame it's the eidolon encounter that needs work.

You see what I'm saying?

No, I don't.

Chroma is by far the biggest outlier, so it makes sense to reign him in rather than buff the Eidolon.

Okay, so there are other Warframes that can be effective for different reasons (e.g., Oberon), but the huge damage buff from Chroma is the biggest problem because a straight damage buff will benefit targeting any weakness the Eidolon ends up with.

Chroma is a problem. Perhaps not the ONLY problem, but he needs to be changed. It's not like Vex Armor is getting made useless, either.

5 hours ago, (Xbox One)Jimmy Voorhees said:

That's fine you can disagree with the semantics of it but we seem to agree the current fix is awful, so I'll take it.

Yep, we agree the current fix is awful. At least conceptually; it may be less terrible than feared in practice.

[(PSN)Regiampiero]

On 2/6/2018 at 6:11 AM, (Xbox One)Jimmy Voorhees said:

Nerfing is the act of a dev who does not have control of their game, and lacks the proper planning for a game to continue with any form of longevity.

Although you make good points in your response, please understand that saying stuff like this about a game that is only increasing in popularity after 5 years taints all of your arguments as invalid. Try to separate emotions from your objective responses and you'll have a more positive response.  

[(XBOX)Ivar Azrael]

8 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

No, I don't.

Chroma is by far the biggest outlier, so it makes sense to reign him in rather than buff the Eidolon.

Okay, so there are other Warframes that can be effective for different reasons (e.g., Oberon), but the huge damage buff from Chroma is the biggest problem because a straight damage buff will benefit targeting any weakness the Eidolon ends up with.

Chroma is a problem. Perhaps not the ONLY problem, but he needs to be changed. It's not like Vex Armor is getting made useless, either.

Yep, we agree the current fix is awful. At least conceptually; it may be less terrible than feared in practice.

Without giving it away, we figured out a way to stack abilities to get the one shot kill and actually do more damage. Still using chroma to fire the shot. So what im saying is they are fixing the symptom, not the disease.

 

The disease being that the encounter is too tedious and lacking to engage players to have fun. They just want to farm the crap out of it, get it done, and forget the eidolons exist.

That's the problem that DE should be focusing on. Not Nerfing frames. They should be looking at it as " why are players flocking to a cheese method, instead of wanting to enjoy the encounter multiple ways?"

The answer is easy. It's not fun. It's a chore. They're evoking the same response from tenno that bungie gets from their entire destiny franchise; "i want to get this done as quick as possible, get it out of the way so i can go back to having fun".

The same problem occurs with the ember situation. Lack of player engagement because they're tired of farming. My dojo is a level 10. Everything complete but the hema. Why? Because farming mutagen samples is so long, boring and tedious that literally no one wants to do it. So a "fire and forget" frame lets them farm while browsing Facebook or something more interesting.

The grind is boring the players. 

Engage the players and they won't spend their time finding cheese, they'll spend it having fun.

Edited February 7, 2018 by (XB1)Jimmy Voorhees

[DiabolusUrsus]

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)Jimmy Voorhees said:

Without giving it away, we figured out a way to stack abilities to get the one shot kill and actually do more damage. Still using chroma to fire the shot. So what im saying is they are fixing the symptom, not the disease.

Okay, and I'll agree with that statement.

However Chroma's status as a symptom should not exempt him from rational changes. Should DE have made these changes years ago when they first became aware of them? Yes, absolutely. Should DE take the time to ensure everything is consistent across the board? Yes, absolutely.

But I don't think you can make a reasonable argument that DE should leave Vex Armor completely alone instead of changing it to scale like every other damage-buff power in the game (and that goes for any powers they missed that I don't know about, too).

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)Jimmy Voorhees said:

The disease being that the encounter is too tedious and lacking to engage players to have fun. They just want to farm the crap out of it, get it done, and forget the eidolons exist.

I don't really agree with this, actually. The Teralyst is one of the most entertaining fights in the game IMO, and really only suffers for a few (unfortunate) reasons:

• Forced Operator integration leaves a sour taste for players less-enthusiastic about their implementation.
• Lures are rather contrived and uninteresting.
• It has to be repeated ad nauseum to get gear upgrades used primarily for taking it down again.

If DE had given the Teralyst damage resistance (not immunity) on its shields and simply not penalized Amps, players would have naturally started using Operators dynamically much more willingly simply because Void Mode is so darned convenient for avoiding its attacks. The lures strike me as unnecessary and the entire encounter would be less annoying were they to be removed completely. If it were up to me, the Teralyst would have been the end-goal of Quills progression. Players would work up to slaying it, not work up by slaying it.

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)Jimmy Voorhees said:

That's the problem that DE should be focusing on. Not Nerfing frames. They should be looking at it as " why are players flocking to a cheese method, instead of wanting to enjoy the encounter multiple ways?"

I disagree, to an extent. Ember's nerf is kinda bad and ineffective, but nerfs are not fundamentally evil or inadvisable. At the same time I agree that DE should absolutely be trying to resolve players' tendency to flock to cheese. Unfortunately, that is an issue more deeply rooted in the game's gameplay rather than something limited only to the Teralyst. The community at large seems to be playing this game for the loot and only the loot, seeing the game itself as a chore to complete to acquire said loot.

DE needs to develop a more engaging and intuitive base combat experience that is sustainably fun to play on its own, with or without loot.

To me, that means we need more interesting enemies. To get more interesting enemies, players have to be less overpowered. That means (among other things) nerfing 'Frames. Interesting how these issues seem to tie together, eh?

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)Jimmy Voorhees said:

The answer is easy. It's not fun. It's a chore. They're evoking the same response from tenno that bungie gets from their entire destiny franchise; "i want to get this done as quick as possible, get it out of the way so i can go back to having fun".

Agreed; see above.

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)Jimmy Voorhees said:

The same problem occurs with the ember situation. Lack of player engagement because they're tired of farming. My dojo is a level 10. Everything complete but the hema. Why? Because farming mutagen samples is so long, boring and tedious that literally no one wants to do it. So a "fire and forget" frame lets them farm while browsing Facebook or something more interesting.

Nothing to disagree with here.

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)Jimmy Voorhees said:

The grind is boring the players. 

Engage the players and they won't spend their time finding cheese, they'll spend it having fun.

Spot on.

I think we definitely agree on the core issue that needs to be resolved, and I certainly hope we can reach an agreement regarding what needs to be done in order to resolve it.

[Tyrian3k]

If you balance a boss around the meta setups, it'll feel like a bullet sponge to anything that isn't a meta setup. That's essentially what nerfs try to avoid.

[MuscleBeach]

On 2/5/2018 at 1:36 PM, (Xbox One)Jimmy Voorhees said:

you seem to change the entire playstyle of a frame every week?

I wish this were true, lol.

Welcome to a constantly evolving game. I hope they never change. If they did, I never would have come back the last two times I took a hiatus. 

[(XBOX)Ivar Azrael]

23 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Okay, and I'll agree with that statement.

However Chroma's status as a symptom should not exempt him from rational changes. Should DE have made these changes years ago when they first became aware of them? Yes, absolutely. Should DE take the time to ensure everything is consistent across the board? Yes, absolutely.

But I don't think you can make a reasonable argument that DE should leave Vex Armor completely alone instead of changing it to scale like every other damage-buff power in the game (and that goes for any powers they missed that I don't know about, too).

I don't really agree with this, actually. The Teralyst is one of the most entertaining fights in the game IMO, and really only suffers for a few (unfortunate) reasons:

• Forced Operator integration leaves a sour taste for players less-enthusiastic about their implementation.
• Lures are rather contrived and uninteresting.
• It has to be repeated ad nauseum to get gear upgrades used primarily for taking it down again.

If DE had given the Teralyst damage resistance (not immunity) on its shields and simply not penalized Amps, players would have naturally started using Operators dynamically much more willingly simply because Void Mode is so darned convenient for avoiding its attacks. The lures strike me as unnecessary and the entire encounter would be less annoying were they to be removed completely. If it were up to me, the Teralyst would have been the end-goal of Quills progression. Players would work up to slaying it, not work up by slaying it.

I disagree, to an extent. Ember's nerf is kinda bad and ineffective, but nerfs are not fundamentally evil or inadvisable. At the same time I agree that DE should absolutely be trying to resolve players' tendency to flock to cheese. Unfortunately, that is an issue more deeply rooted in the game's gameplay rather than something limited only to the Teralyst. The community at large seems to be playing this game for the loot and only the loot, seeing the game itself as a chore to complete to acquire said loot.

DE needs to develop a more engaging and intuitive base combat experience that is sustainably fun to play on its own, with or without loot.

To me, that means we need more interesting enemies. To get more interesting enemies, players have to be less overpowered. That means (among other things) nerfing 'Frames. Interesting how these issues seem to tie together, eh?

Agreed; see above.

Nothing to disagree with here.

Spot on.

I think we definitely agree on the core issue that needs to be resolved, and I certainly hope we can reach an agreement regarding what needs to be done in order to resolve it.

Truth be told, we can discuss this all day form a better solution, and it won't matter because the devs don't listen at all ever. 

Though after seeing how much any criticism to this game is flame baited and trolled, it's no wonder no positive changes happen as a result of these forums

[Terrornaut]

On 2/5/2018 at 4:59 PM, Buddhakingpen said:

Iono, the only time i've ever been frustrated with their decisions is when they made mags pull ragdoll instead of cluster enemies in a ball in front of you. Outside of that, i could at least understand what DE has done every step of the way. Their worst offense is that they're too slow to react. At first their logic is, "oh we thought it would be fun for the player" but that "fun" becomes abuse to their game balances, and once everyone does it, it becomes a problem that they should have seen coming. 

As far as them developing enemies to deal with aoe nuke abilities. That would cause more harm than good. Think about how mad ppl are getting about ember, when she's literally the exact same frame that just has to recast her 4 every 15 seconds. Now , imagine they put in enemies that outright prevented the damage from even happening (lets ignore the fact that ancients exist for a second). Come on dude. Remember nullifiers and scrambus units were made to help nerf player power usage and make us think a bit... and once again, a lot of the community complained.

The real problem is the community. Not DE. Half of us want a well balanced game where some frames have weaknesses in some areas, to allow for a better group dynamic. Other people just want to achieve their ultimate power fantasy once they have all the mods they thought of for their build. They dont care about game balance. "I worked toward this feeling i want, so i deserve it" is the general sentiment of those kinds of players. Its like a 50/50 split DE cant possibly appease both sides. So they pick a bit from each to work on, and piss off a bit of each side. 

And chroma is literally the only character that can do what chroma does. No one can reach that level of damage except for him. Balancing an entire gameplay loop around 1/30 something frames? THATS bad design. Honestly, they should have just nerfed chroma with the plains patch and explained why.  But thats in hindsight. Of course we all have the answers after something happens. Its how we deal with it thats important. And DE is dealing with it the proper way imo. They are giving chroma some balances, letting him share that power instead of outright removing it, and they're giving us stronger teralysts.  

Its a game made piecemeal. They try to give us something fun, We break it, they try to balance it out because most games should be that. 

If youre a clan leader trying to inform new players, tell them "if its the best thing in the game at doing one thing, dont get attached to it, just learn the game mechanics"

I have literally had 1 thing i regularly used be nerfed in this game, and that was mags pull, as previously stated, outside of that i have the wherewithal to understand that if it seems broken, it is, and will eventually get nerfed. Play with balanced things and this doesnt become an issue. 

One of the best posts I've seen in a while. Also, I miss original mag pull, especially when I could just lump enemies into a pile and ground pound them with ankyros and just murdergib chunks of enemy at once.  Nidus kind of got that back =/

On 2/5/2018 at 5:14 PM, DarthBane1 said:

I've been playing as long as you have and I'm sorry, I feel they have moved in a positive direction. You shouldn't get upset about them changing things either. Hundreds of thousands of games that have ever been released (let alone in beta) have been changed constantly up until they were no more. It's part of the program's life. Actually about 90% of development is maintenance. So they see there is a problem with overpowered frames (EXE: Ember, chroma, banshee, gara, etc.) and they fix it. So what? that just means you can't exploit them being over powered. Learn to adapt and play video games. You should NEVER bash/rant a development team because they are not giving you what you want. I am seeing about 75% of people are OK with these changes. That's a good number. If you don't like it, play another game. 

Pretty much.

On 2/5/2018 at 5:34 PM, Pixues said:

Lol. No other game ever has buffed or nerfed content after release. Because that would be crazy. What are warframe devs doing?! 

On a serious note.

My only complaint is that the Warframe devs are not pushing out these balance passes faster, and more frequent. 

I've been asking for a patch cycle like this for years. I'm glad its finally happening and I hope it happens like 2-3 times a year.

In other news.  As an Ember main of 900 hours, I expected a nerf to WoF.  This change is not going to cripple ember, but it is going to hurt the opposite people they're intending to affect, while the group of players they're trying to target can legitimately run the same exact build they already do and find that now...they can move around kind of like the non meme-Ember's do but they now have a little bit of power strength for once.  I'm not against a WoF nerf, but this was a failure to address their intended/announced problem.  Either you stay with meme-ember build and are completely fine, or, if you build for high level content, you recast wof every 8-12 sec if you weren't already.

Chroma needed a fix.  I guess there actually are people complaining about that the same way people raged and flipped out when Gara's Mass Vitrify was changed.  How people did not see that coming and not expect it, I will never understand.  Its just...how do you not understand these things are ridiculous and need to be addressed?  (rhetorical question)

[DiabolusUrsus]

13 hours ago, (Xbox One)Jimmy Voorhees said:

Truth be told, we can discuss this all day form a better solution, and it won't matter because the devs don't listen at all ever.

Well, that's not entirely true. They backpedaled on Damage 2.5 in consideration of feedback and are rethinking, and the second wave of Warframe tweaks came about in response to feedback.

13 hours ago, (Xbox One)Jimmy Voorhees said:

Though after seeing how much any criticism to this game is flame baited and trolled, it's no wonder no positive changes happen as a result of these forums

Tragically true. What's especially sad is that trading makes it so that players will actively attack suggestions that make things easier on the players in order to protect their profit margins on select items.

I think that's really unfortunate, and that such conflict of interest really shouldn't be allowed to exist.

[Mach25]

14 hours ago, (Xbox One)Jimmy Voorhees said:

....

Though after seeing how much any criticism to this game is flame baited and trolled, it's no wonder no positive changes happen as a result of these forums

That's why I thoroughly ignore the responses these forum users give (save a select few, relatively) and make my own response.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Mach25

[Draugurr]

On 2/5/2018 at 10:36 PM, (Xbox One)Jimmy Voorhees said:

Dear DE,

I have been playing warframe since my friend showed it to me in alpha on PC. I've loved every step of the way and until recently, agreed with 99% of your decisions on the game.

Recently, however, you've made several changes to several frames that are damning to the design, play style, enjoyment, and time investment of your players because they're " killing things too fast".

That's a terrible logic. If Ember is killing mass numbers with"world on fire" develope enemies to deal with that. If Chroma is murdering your eidolons too fast, then perhaps you should have made them more challenging. If gara was too good at defending, maybe you should have actually play tested it prior to release.

Your pattern of punishing players for your shortcommings is ridiculous. How am I, as a clan leader, supposed to guide new players in building up frames when you seem to change the entire playstyle of a frame every week? How am I going to convince people not to quit the game when the frame they proudly built now must be completely redone because YOU can't plan your content around the frames that existed BEFORE that content.

You're doing it backward DE, and you're frustrating your players while you do it.

Don't worry Saryn is getting a nerf next. She is more effective in killing everything on the map in low levels. So is Oberon, Octavia, Hydron, Volt, Nova, Rhino and Equinox.... oh.