Several bullet hoses need ammo buffs

[Magneu]

Looking through the weapon change-list, I can see that infamous hoses like Twin Vipers Wraith are getting an ammo buff to 440. However, guns like the AkZani, Dex Furis, AkSomati, and Secura Dual Cestra are still stuck with a paltry 210 ammo, and these all have more ammo per clip than the Twin Vipers Wraith. This is bad because as the TVW spends ammo, you can pick up ammo starting earlier; a magazine is only worth about 10% of your max ammo. With the other hoses though, each clip is 30-50% of your max ammo, meaning that by the time you spend a magazine and can pick ammo up, you are missing a much larger proportion of your ammo, leading to more difficulties keeping ammo topped off. Even Ammo Mutation becomes less useful, as you can only use it when you have missing ammo reserves; the TVW can take advantage of this much earlier.

The listed bullet hoses really should get ammo reserve buffs to the same level as the TVW, if anything to keep it consistent.

[Endorphinz]

I wholeheartedly agree. More than that, ammo economy as a whole needs to be addressed. It's absolutely not fair that some weapons deal the same amount of damage in one round as one weapon might do in 30 rounds. Ammo efficiency in missions has always been swept under the rug, and given a band-aid in the form of "ammo mutation" mods. Great, now we get to waste a weapon mod slot just to stay on even footing.

I'm not saying that all weapons need to be completely self-sustainable in missions, hell, ammo consumption is definitely another contender for weapon balance. Stronger weapons can be balanced out by ammo inefficiency. But not the absolute blanket situation we have right now, where every single ammo pickup is the same 20 rounds for every single rifle and secondary weapon. I strongly believe that some weapons, in addition to increased ammo caps, could also use some sort of ammo pickup multiplier or bonus.

Two players going into a mission, one with a Sybaris and the other with a Soma, the Soma user is already at a disadvantage before the battle even starts. At least, this is my two cents.

[FireSegment]

about to post something similar to this  those gun really need some ammo love

[-N7-Leonhart]

You could say it's their downside for being powerful. In contrast, the slow firing weapons are harder to use in order to kill large hordes of weaklings, but their ammo economy is much better.

[Magneu]

6 hours ago, -N7-Leonhart said:

You could say it's their downside for being powerful. In contrast, the slow firing weapons are harder to use in order to kill large hordes of weaklings, but their ammo economy is much better.

That's comparing weapon type. I'm comparing between fellow bullet hoses, namely the Twin Vipers Wraith.

[o.0-]

I've been of the idea of re-imagining how Ammo works in Warframe:

• Warframes due to how they are powered and engineered are able to manufacture Ammo in the field (think highly efficient 3D-Printers)
• Their Reserve then becomes the number of ready made magazines/clips/projectiles to reload
• So ammo pickups provide the material that is then custom made for which ever carried weapons we have, and refill by the mag / tube / clip size.
  • The Soma would be 100, Braton P 75, Karak 30, Amprex 100 and so on.
• UI Hud, could change to displaying symbols for the number of ready Mags / Clips (weapons like bows would display the number of arrows with whats in the quiver and one mag / quiver).
• Different weapons can then display differences in how many ready made ammo can be carried at a time and be a source of balancing between weapons.
  • A Weapon like the Supra Vandal is really only carrying five mags, with 1600 reserve and 300 in the mag.
  • The Kohm is more or less at 4 clips/mags now
  • Compared to the AkLex P, which could be envisioned to have 26 mags, with a 210 reserve. Or the Vasto P, having 35 with a 210 reserve. So if such a change works, a weapon like the Lex and Vasto could have five ready made mags instead.
• Ammo mutation mods could evolve some, to be a dual stat option of ammo max mods, granting extra ready made mags/clips and increasing the sources to have more ready from a greater variety of sources, so they still mutate material.

Could likely need a few more tweaks here and there, but this serves as the initial outline for what I'd like to see for ammo in Warframe and a means to help out ammo hungry weapons so that they can finally be a choice out of the available options that is not a detriment to builds.

[Panser_Nes]

I am personally hoping for a modding 2.0, after damage 2.5.

Where, for example, when modding, you would instead choose between reduced recoil, reload speed or an ammo mutator. Rather than the current 'how much damage is the quality of life change worth?'

At the moment, there are currently way too many good damage mods on the market, and no-one likes sacrificing damage in a game largely driven by vanity.

One coule add exilus mod slots to weapons as suggested by others, but certain weapons would take far more advantage out of those than others, like the Prisma Grakata. And I don't really see this happening without a huge weapon overhaul unfortunately.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Practical_Tomato
Typo

[peterc3]

21 minutes ago, Practical_Tomato said:

I am personally hoping for a modding 2.0, after damage 2.5.

Where, for example, when modding, you would instead choose between reduced recoil, reload speed or an ammo mutator. Rather than the qurrent 'how much damage is the quality of life change worth?'

At the moment, there are currently way too many good damage mods on the market, and no-one likes sacrificing damage in a game largely driven by vanity.

One coule add exilus mod slots to weapons as suggested by others, but certain weapons would take far more advantage out of those than others, like the Prisma Grakata. And I don't really see this happening without a huge weapon overhaul unfortunately.

What's the point of high damage if there aren't enough bullets? Paper damage calculations are almost completely useless in Warframe and elsewhere and yet people are slaves to the paper DPS of a weapon. If something doesn't have enough bullets, you either fit a mutation somewhere or you bring Carrier.

[Panser_Nes]

1 hour ago, peterc3 said:

What's the point of high damage if there aren't enough bullets? Paper damage calculations are almost completely useless in Warframe and elsewhere and yet people are slaves to the paper DPS of a weapon. If something doesn't have enough bullets, you either fit a mutation somewhere or you bring Carrier.

I completely agree, but as I somewhat hinted at in my post, I am a player driven by vanity, and although I do know it is the sensible thing to do, I will almost never opt out a damage mod for a mutation mod. I also love my kavat too much to bring a carrier.

[DarcnyssWolfe]

11 hours ago, -N7-Leonhart said:

You could say it's their downside for being powerful. In contrast, the slow firing weapons are harder to use in order to kill large hordes of weaklings, but their ammo economy is much better.

You could, but then we have the Twin Grakatas with both some of the highest dps of the bullet hoses and the highest (still true?) Ammo reserves of secondarys, only thing slow about the is the reload to an extent.

[-N7-Leonhart]

8 hours ago, DarcnyssWolfe said:

You could, but then we have the Twin Grakatas with both some of the highest dps of the bullet hoses and the highest (still true?) Ammo reserves of secondarys, only thing slow about the is the reload to an extent.

While I agree to some extent, I utterly disagree with saying that the Twin Grakatas have a good economy because they have higher ammo reserves. Those have twice the fire rate and half the damage shown in the arsenal, so 40 at base and 64 with just Lethal Torrent. That means they empty their 120 mag in 3 seconds at base, after which they need another 3 to reload. I would certainly prefer half the fire rate and ammo capacity with twice the damage, since the biggest factor is not the reserve, but how quickly you can replenish it from pickups. I think they enter in the category very poor ammo economy.

Edited February 8, 2018 by -N7-Leonhart

[DarcnyssWolfe]

1 hour ago, -N7-Leonhart said:

While I agree to some extent, I utterly disagree with saying that the Twin Grakatas have a good economy because they have higher ammo reserves. Those have twice the fire rate and half the damage shown in the arsenal, so 40 at base and 64 with just Lethal Torrent. That means they empty their 120 mag in 3 seconds at base, after which they need another 3 to reload. I would certainly prefer half the fire rate and ammo capacity with twice the damage, since the biggest factor is not the reserve, but how quickly you can replenish it from pickups. I think they enter in the category very poor ammo economy.

I never said they did have good ammo economy. Sorry if i misunderstood your post, thought you were refering to bullet hoses having ammo reserve issues because of their power to spray out damage. To that I refered the near enbodiment of bullet hose, the Twin Grakatas, which have one of the highest burst dps of such weapons, but also plenty of ammo in reserve to even use them effectively through a standard mission. They are by no means primary weapon/endless economic, but far better off than most lead-wall guns that are still sitting at 210 reserves.