Ash/Prime Energy Hog - Low Energy

[Acersecomic]

Ash Prime with Primed Flow has 425 energy.
I know Mag is spammy but not as Ash.

Ash's Seeking Shuriken's are spammed insanely on grineer missions and Bladestorm is quite an energy hog with 12/6 energy drain per mark, meaning up to 36/18 per enemy sometimes.
Ash goes through his energy reserves extremely fast even when not using Bladestorm recklesly.

So why not buff his energy as well during the Frame reworks? It would make him a comfortable dps rathen than "fk, I'm out of energy again for the nth time".

[Yperkeimenos]

Yes the major problem Bladestorm faces is the energy cost which still remains high, 12 energy per mark means 36 energy per enemy which is excessively high, even when cut in half while invisible. Why not make it so it's 12/6 energy regardless of how many marks there are on an enemy.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Did they lower the cost? Pretty sure it was 15/10....that aside

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Rage

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Hunter_Adrenaline

In contrary to mag, Ash got a rather big life pool. You may wanna consider one of those two if you're staying away from max efficiency...not that streamline isn't an option even on a duration build. Plus, he regains the energy invested for every enemy he or others kill before activation and for every unused mark so i can't quite comprehend how you're having energy issues, if you don't spam it that is.

Also, i don't know if you're aware but you're able to mark ~8 enemys with 12 and ~17 enemys with a energy cost of 6.... On base stats, with a ultimate....how many enemys do you hit with other frames that cost 100 energy flat? How much damage do those bring to the table? How is it expensive? They have literally adressed that problem and lowered the cost and you guys still complain? Seriously?

Edited February 10, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Nazrethim]

The problem is mostly multimarking costing additional energy instead of being just a bonus or having reduced cost. Or that multimarking makes no damn sense.

[Acersecomic]

6 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Did they lower the cost? Pretty sure it was 15/10....that aside

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Rage

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Hunter_Adrenaline

In contrary to mag, Ash got a rather big life pool. You may wanna consider one of those two if you're staying away from max efficiency...not that streamline isn't an option even on a duration build. Plus, he regains the energy invested for every enemy he or others kill before activation and for every unused mark so i can't quite comprehend how you're having energy issues, if you don't spam it that is.

Also, i don't know if you're aware but you're able to mark ~8 enemys with 12 and ~17 enemys with a energy cost of 6.... On base stats, with a ultimate....how many enemys do you hit with other frames that cost 100 energy flat? How much damage do those bring to the table? How is it expensive? They have literally adressed that problem and lowered the cost and you guys still complain? Seriously?

I use a 214% duration, 100$ effi, 94% range amd 155% strength Ash Build.
I find it to be optimal for both Invisi Duration, complete Armor removal with Seeking Shuriken, good damage on Bladestorm and not having to be in their face to use Fatal Teleport. I literaly can't remove anything without crippling the build.

They lowered the cost from 15/10 to 12/6 but that is still too much when you consider multiple marks and low energy pool, ESPECIALLY because you still have 3 other abilities that are very usefull and are constantly used as they are either short (18s invisi) or spammable like Shurriken and Teleport.
Them "addressing and lowering the cost" doesn't mean it was done enough". "Oh hey, they increased a weapon's crit chance from 1% to 2%, yay problem adressed!", NO.

Don't get me wrong, Ash has no problem tackling the content, it's just that his energy economy is abysmal, he is a nasty energy hog that makes his energy managment drustrating and quite literaly... draining. He needs a larger energy pool without any increase in ability cost.

Take Mirage for example, I run a 45% efficiency Mirage. And yet her 1 and 3 (Hall of Mirrors and Eclipse) give me absolutely insane damage output, outdamaging nearly every frame in the game (spits on new useless Chroma) AAAAND the abilities last 60 seconds each, all for the cost of 38 energy. AT 45% EFFICIENCY! Mate, Ash needs a larger energy pool.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Acersecomic:

I use a 214% duration, 100$ effi, 94% range amd 155% strength Ash Build.
I find it to be optimal for both Invisi Duration, complete Armor removal with Seeking Shuriken, good damage on Bladestorm and not having to be in their face to use Fatal Teleport. I literaly can't remove anything without crippling the build.

 

🙄 i beg to argue, Seeking can be fed with Intensify+Power drift too, what makes prime con for 155% duration plenty and narrow mindet, i assume cunning drift and stretch irrelevant. Once you get your hands on a set of Arcane trickery (sold for as little as 20p each the last time i've checked) you can lower the duration even further (Intensify->transient, no power drift) as the higher hitrate of bladestorm is a pretty good source for proccing, the shadows have been confirmed to procc it by themselfes and seeking shuriken bluntly doesn't need that much duration while smoke bomb plus trickery is plenty. Anyways, that's your two slots for efficiency and power gain.

I mean ain't you literally running 100% efficiency with no power management whatsoever?...just what do you expect of it exactly? 

Edit since you mentioned her too:...did you play Mirrage recently or at least pay attention to all the threads that have been going around? Sure, she's efficient af but you literally gain nothing from her. Literally. Her clones do base-stats and ignore mods, combo etc and eclipse doesn't give the buff it indicates.... The two abilitys you use are both inferior to ash's seeking shuriken and invisibility.

How periodically can you use her other two abilitys on that kinda build?... sry but that's a really poor example.

Edited February 10, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Acersecomic]

4 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

🙄 i beg to argue, Seeking can be fed with Intensify+Power drift too, what makes prime con for 155% duration plenty and narrow mindet, i assume cunning drift and stretch irrelevant. Once you get your hands on a set of Arcane trickery (sold for as little as 20p each the last time i've checked) you can lower the duration even further (Intensify->transient, no power drift) as the higher hitrate of bladestorm is a pretty good source for proccing, the shadows have been confirmed to procc it by themselfes and seeking shuriken bluntly doesn't need that much duration while smoke bomb plus trickery is plenty. Anyways, that's your two slots for efficiency and power gain.

I mean ain't you literally running 100% efficiency with no power management whatsoever?...just what do you expect of it exactly? 

Edit since you mentioned her too:...did you play Mirrage recently or at least pay attention to all the threads that have been going around? Sure, she's efficient af but you literally gain nothing from her. Literally. Her clones do base-stats and ignore mods, combo etc and eclipse doesn't give the buff it indicates.... The two abilitys you use are both inferior to ash's seeking shuriken and invisibility.

How periodically can you use her other two abilitys on that kinda build?... sry but that's a really poor example.

I beg to differ. Chroma with 745 (new, S#&$ useless chroma) Fury takes 600 bullets from my Supra Vandal to kill 6 lvl 145 corrupted heavy gunners. Mirage does all that with 150 bullets. I beg to differ at how useless Mirage is.

Also, arcanes can go suck it, seriously, binding things to cosmetics... gonna wait for rework on those RNGs. For gods sake, there are frames that have no channeling or long lasting abilities that have insane energy pools and yet a frame that has killer abilities and uses  them a lot has one of the worst energy pools in the game. WTF mate? Sorry but not sorry.
I actually play Mirage quite a bit, especially when I need the extra kicking power.

This is the build I go with and it serves me very well. The range I highly prefer because I can use Fatal Teleport efficiently and not being where I want to teleport in order to teleport. There is nothing to take out without compromising the build in order to add efficiency, and there would be no need for efficiency if the energy pool was made for a damage frame that spams abilities. "Oh look there's Inaros, frame that casts abilties once every 50 years, can use Rage and Adrenaline and has 680ish energy pool!".

There is no poor example, you just fail to see and refuse an increase in energy pool just so you have someone to say "no" to. For a caster frame, he sure has crap energy. Even Mag got a buff, and she casts quite a bit though she can go without spamming all the time, know it since I play her a lot, AS WELL.

Nothing I saw ingame or from experience tells me Ash should not have a larger energy pool and there is no argument you or anyone else can make to convince me otherwise.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Acersecomic:

 

 and it serves me very well. 

Thus this thread. Because it serves you well. And because it really doesn't, you expect DE to give you max efficiency on zero efficiency used.

I mean not like i care ... let it "serve you well" or actually build for it. Your choice. You won't even have to polarize him to that end.

On a sidenote, topic of those threads was basicly a bunch of people prooving that a visuall 6x multiplier gave a 2x multiplier sooo, in case DE didn't fix this by now, nope. Just nope.

Edited February 10, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Acersecomic]

38 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Thus this thread. Because it serves you well. And because it really doesn't, you expect DE to give you max efficiency on zero efficiency used.

It does serve me well. It is an effective killing machine. I am saying IT IS TOO BLOODY EXPENSIVE! Jesus christ you are so freaking dense!

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 43 Minuten schrieb Acersecomic:

It does serve me well. It is an effective killing machine. I am saying IT IS TOO BLOODY EXPENSIVE! Jesus christ you are so freaking dense!

>makes an expensive build

>says it's fine

>rants that it's expensive

>blames bladestorm, rather then poor choices

>calls people dense

Edited February 10, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Asdryu]

I spend little to no energy at all on a build for bladestorm.
There's also seeking shuriken wich is an amazing augment to fit in such build and both don't need duration. There were always two builds focused on two main ways to play Ash. That and the fact that you can now send clones and throw shuriken while shooting makes you a dps machine.

If you want you can build him for both, especially as of now and you also have Zenurik. If you run out of energy THAT fast, you're clearly doing something wrong. Sorry to sound so blunt but it's just how it is. We even got Venka Prime wich is a huge booster to Bladestorm. You can't have both and excel at both without any efforts.

Example: your build looks nice, but Narrow Minded is too extreme. The negative range from it won't let you get a good amount of targets without the need to get closer in bigger spaces. 10 seconds of invisbility should be more than enough to make a huge mess out of it.
Either remove narrow minded and put streamline or remove transient and put intensify + augur secrets (thought that won't solve you efficiency problems as much)

Edited February 10, 2018 by Asdryu

[Acersecomic]

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

>makes an expensive build

>says it's fine

>rants that it's expensive

>blames bladestorm, rather then poor choices

>calls people dense

It's not an expensive build. It's a neutral efficiency with mear-maximum energy amount on a frame that spams abilities.

It is fine, it just has little energy.

It's an expensive frame.

Bladestorm's marks cost too much.

Only you are dense.

44 minutes ago, Asdryu said:

I spend little to no energy at all on a build for bladestorm.
There's also seeking shuriken wich is an amazing augment to fit in such build and both don't need duration. There were always two builds focused on two main ways to play Ash. That and the fact that you can now send clones and throw shuriken while shooting makes you a dps machine.

If you want you can build him for both, especially as of now and you also have Zenurik. If you run out of energy THAT fast, you're clearly doing something wrong. Sorry to sound so blunt but it's just how it is. We even got Venka Prime wich is a huge booster to Bladestorm. You can't have both and excel at both without any efforts.

Example: your build looks nice, but Narrow Minded is too extreme. The negative range from it won't let you get a good amount of targets without the need to get closer in bigger spaces. 10 seconds of invisbility should be more than enough to make a huge mess out of it.
Either remove narrow minded and put streamline or remove transient and put intensify + augur secrets (thought that won't solve you efficiency problems as much)

Quite a bit I can agree on here.

Edited February 10, 2018 by Acersecomic

[AetherMcLoud]

It's pretty easy to run 150% or 175% efficiency on him though since he has a great dump stat in duration.

[LordEcks]

I stopped reading when I realized you only had 100% efficiency.

Virtually all frames wish there were stats they could skimp on. to make others more powerful.

This is  the whole concept behind the Corrupted mods...

To believe Ash needs more energy because your build doesn't want to accommodate efficiency mods is a bit over the edge.

[Nazrethim]

I've been using it at default 100% energy, and it's hit-to-energy ratios on invisible are almost the same as pre-revisit Blade Storm (still a bogus that it requries invisiblity but whatever).

Considering the massive QoL the send clones was (which came with a change to the ability description so it now makes sense thematically) I think the cost (while invisible) is fair.

Ash can now select a bunch of dudes, and release while taking care of a different group of enemies. And it feels like the master ninja signaling his clan to strike from the shadows.

 

So far the problems are Multimarking being pointless, too small marking reticle (hilariously, Teleport has a ridiculosuly wide targeting reticle, maybe they can be swapped?), SShadow still being unaffected by Range or leaving a cloud that allies can pass trough or Teleport not having automatic finisher by default. And Rising Storm being 100% worthless.

[(PSN)Nurolkel]

11 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

 

Edit since you mentioned her too:...did you play Mirrage recently or at least pay attention to all the threads that have been going around? Sure, she's efficient af but you literally gain nothing from her. Literally. Her clones do base-stats and ignore mods, combo etc and eclipse doesn't give the buff it indicates.... The two abilitys you use are both inferior to ash's seeking shuriken and invisibility.

 

Off topic: wait what? So using hall of mirrors and tons of blind rage doesn't really add much to her damage output? or it doesn't take into account the mods of the weapons? 

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

Haven't played with my ash that much since the rework, but I didn't really have any mana issues on my old build with base 150 energy and no efficiency. I tend to do quick, short bursts of markings and I tend to keep my energy counter maxed most of the time.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb (PS4)Nurolkel:

Off topic: wait what? So using hall of mirrors and tons of blind rage doesn't really add much to her damage output? or it doesn't take into account the mods of the weapons? 

Nope, tho it's mentioned in the wiki so not sure how far that one still applys, what i can confirm is that it's definitly excluding thrown weapons(it's ridiculously obvious using a zenistar) and that it's excluding combo, what makes it pointless for anything but gunning, possibly relentless combination and CO focused melee builds and Eclipse pretty much shows a "max value", rather then reflecting the actuall light level...which hardly does seem to exist in the game. 

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Acersecomic:

It's not an expensive build. It's a neutral efficiency with mear-maximum energy amount on a frame that spams abilities.

It is fine, it just has little energy.

It's an expensive frame.

Bladestorm's marks cost too much.

Only you are dense.

Yeah, he's about as expensive as any other spammy frame .... I mean his abilitys are not duration based or channeled except for one that doesn't gain much from it, but he can take a hit or two, has good health and overall really low mod requirements, what makes the use of 2 auguments and 4 abilitys possible to begin with so it's really just a result your poor choices that bring you in that situation.

Just wanna point out what a special kind of dense it is to expect a game to adapt to ones build, much rather then adapring ones build to a game before taking my leave.Enjoy trying to brute-force content :)

[atejas]

17 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

seeking shuriken bluntly doesn't need that much duration

 

Quite honestly seeking shuriken feels somewhat unnecessary on Ash in general now. Teleport and bladestorm go straight through armour and at 190 power strength 3 ticks can kill a whole room of lvl 100 bombards

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb atejas:

 

Quite honestly seeking shuriken feels somewhat unnecessary on Ash in general now. Teleport and bladestorm go straight through armour and at 190 power strength 3 ticks can kill a whole room of lvl 100 bombards

True, and 2x combo essencially give you 190% power strength results in the first place, tho, it's pretty nice support for melee, gunning and others so it's worth building around.... i'm honestly much rather one of the people who feel like Fatal Teleport is somewhat unnecessary now...sure, it's mobility but bound to a forced finisher animation, what screws with fluent melee play just as much as old BS did.. there's nothing worse then teleporting into a wave just to watch then passing you by.

I used both, Bladestorm and Fatal before the rework but i'll probably dropp Fatal once that update reaches consoles.

[atejas]

1 minute ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

I used both, Bladestorm and Fatal before the rework but i'll probably dropp Fatal once that update reaches consoles.

Seeking Shuriken is still the most useful augment Ash has (except Smoke Shadow on sortie defense I guess) for the reasons you described. Fatal teleport isn't useful except for extreme edge cases like killing >120 heavy gunners that you'll never run into in regular play. Rising Storm is utterly useless now that Naramon and Body Count/Drifting Contact are out and it should probably be reworked to be closer to Surging Dash (giving multiple combo ticks per bladestorm attack)

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb atejas:

Seeking Shuriken is still the most useful augment Ash has (except Smoke Shadow on sortie defense I guess) for the reasons you described. Fatal teleport isn't useful except for extreme edge cases like killing >120 heavy gunners that you'll never run into in regular play. Rising Storm is utterly useless now that Naramon and Body Count/Drifting Contact are out and it should probably be reworked to be closer to Surging Dash (giving multiple combo ticks per bladestorm attack)

Yep. Depends on ones playstyle tho.

Seeking definitly doesn't do much if you reduce yourself to bladestorming. Fatal Teleport works best with CL daggers and generally gunning, can work with melee but doesn't have to as you're, as mentioned, slowing down and don't gain much over a fully wound up combo counter hitting a dbuffed enemy.

Rising Storm i agree to. It doesn't even matter if it would give more or a propper combo counter. More would be better obviously but migrating a mod slot from your melee to Ash would do a lot for ones melee build, what's nice too....Anything would better then a like 8s counter on maxed duration...

[Acersecomic]

8 hours ago, atejas said:

 

Quite honestly seeking shuriken feels somewhat unnecessary on Ash in general now. Teleport and bladestorm go straight through armour and at 190 power strength 3 ticks can kill a whole room of lvl 100 bombards

You should try Jat Kittag + Fatal Teleport on enemies with their armor stripped <3 BEEEAAUTIIIFUUUL.

[atejas]

19 hours ago, Acersecomic said:

You should try Jat Kittag + Fatal Teleport on enemies with their armor stripped <3 BEEEAAUTIIIFUUUL.

Finisher damage already goes through armour so stripping it is unnecessary, isn't it?

[Acersecomic]

4 hours ago, atejas said:

Finisher damage already goes through armour so stripping it is unnecessary, isn't it?

On the target maybe, but not the surrounding enemies, Armor reduces damage on surrounding unfortunates, making them survive in most cases. Seeking Shuriken removes that little obstacle.