Uncle Thay's slightly biased look at the new Zephyr

[Xrkr]

2 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

You could be right, I don't use Equinox very often. I was going by the wiki description which states:

Even if that's now how it works, it doesn't mean they couldn't change it so that some drains simply counter energy coming in rather than completely blocking it. Most drains would actually make more sense that way. The disabling of energy regen has always been a poor mechanic that wasn't needed. 

I would settle for a faster cast and preferably the ability to cast while active to prevent potential one-shots in the downtime window, but it really doesn't make the ability any more interesting or compelling to have to re-cast it every so often. 

That might actually be right, as well. Been a little while since I played mine, but I remember the drain taking effect when enemies were affected and I wasn't using Energy Siphon in the build. I was using the Focus 1.0 Zenurik passive. Could also have been the way I had her built, which I've since changed and forgotten.

Also, effective as it can be, Turbulence isn't a particularly interesting ability. Then again, neither is Frost's globe when used as a defensive ability as opposed to shattering it for damage or whatever Frosts do with their igloo. Yeah, Jetstream gives us speed and projectile velocity, but it seems the speed just adds to a fun-factor more than a practical combat application (not to say there is none) and the projectile velocity assists in landing shots from projectile weapons, of which there are significantly fewer than hit-scan, so its use is rather limited outside of PoE. Furthermore, the added projectile velocity trait doesn't directly add to our ability to kill enemies, it's only as good as your weapon is. Zephyr, as a whole, is only as good as your weapons are.

As much as I see people saying that Zephyr isn't a DPS frame, having no proper damaging ability (or damage buffing ability) just feels gimped. The original concept for Zephyr included in Turbulence's properties the ability to absorb and offensively direct enemy fire to specific targets. I'd love to have something like that, especially if it allowed us to safely redirect explosive munitions, such that we might not be more of a liability against high level bombards/napalms than a defensive asset.

I'd also love to know why Atlas' punch (not to single him out, but ...) has greater damage capability than a full warframe meteor-diving from the heavens onto an enemy. Far longer setup, potentially more expensive, far less payoff.

Tornadoes. I don't even know where to begin, so I won't. Recast is nice, though.

[Asher74]

On 2/10/2018 at 3:29 PM, Thaylien said:

The other option is to completely take away the charge function on ground and simply let us hover in mid air by holding the button to charge that hover.

Having thought on this for a bit I can't help but think about how much i want this.  If hover was activated mid air by holding 1, it could be used while flying around with tailwind to stop midair, take a shot, or more importantly, give you a moment to figure out where to direct your next tailwind.  In effect it would give Zephyr that bird like flight mode that many have wanted.  I think it would be balanced by having a slight energy drain while active so combined with the cost of tailwind you would have to land every once and a while to rest, like a bird do in the real world.  It would also be usable on any tileset because you can stop at whatever height you want.  One thing I'm not sure of is whether releasing one to exit hover should automatically send you into another tialwind/divebomb or just make you fall.

On another matter, what are your thoughts on Airburst Sucking enemies inwards instead of ragdolling them away, like divebomb vortex.  I think it would fit well with her kit as you could use it as a emergency cc for enemies that get too close, but also use it while flying around to group the enemies together for a divebomb.  

[skRose]

I've done a detailed breakdown for Zephyr in great depth, yet simple enough for relatively easy implementation. Please lend your support in this proposition as I wish to push for more in regards to the whole roster to bring Warframe into a new era of combat.

Edited February 12, 2018 by skRose

[Terrornaut]

14 hours ago, Caelward said:

Just as a complete left field tangent.

@Thaylien

Did you ever play Nier:Automata?

There's a weapon that you can pick up in that game that gives the character a nifty blue blink dash. I wish I had that as part of Zephyr's passive. Turn all her dodge rolls into blink dashes. Or give me an arcane that did that... hmmm....

Suggested that as an addition to TW or base dash a while ago, where she basically wind slides in the chosen direction. Same distance as a roll but with less recovery frames.  It'd be pretty damned cool, super fun, and effective, and make her more interesting to play defensively than just what 3 does. Not saying it needs to be turbulence godmode, but, something like this would be outstanding.  Even if it wasn't replaced as a passive effect, it could be added on to TW if you held a directional movement key and pressed 1 and it moved you a short distance in that direction.  Holding W/up of course would do what it does now. 
.....

In other news though, found something kind of fun and funny for yall to take a look at.  Made this a couple days ago and just got around to uploading it last night.  One program I used kept crashing and then I thought I only uploaded it in 360p, but YT just hadn't processed it yet. 

Funnel nado's are like little piranhas now.

I don't really want to post this in general in its own thread because its not something I really want seen and way out there (also its just horribly unedited for now and doesn't need to be seen by general pop.  I don't do this normally and don't plan on doing a bunch of YT content, but when something comes along worth analyzing or looking at..I'm down).  But considering the specific people I wanted to show this finding to are basically all in this thread, I figure this may be the place to post. If you feel its hijacking, I'll remove it and toss it in another post.
 

 

[Birdframe_Prime]

11 minutes ago, Terrornaut said:

Funnel nado's are like little piranhas now.

Tiny-nados... hmm... interesting point, I've not tried them out with AoE weapons yet, so this could be very interesting.

[Xrkr]

35 minutes ago, Terrornaut said:

Suggested that as an addition to TW or base dash a while ago, where she basically wind slides in the chosen direction. Same distance as a roll but with less recovery frames.  It'd be pretty damned cool, super fun, and effective, and make her more interesting to play defensively than just what 3 does. Not saying it needs to be turbulence godmode, but, something like this would be outstanding.  Even if it wasn't replaced as a passive effect, it could be added on to TW if you held a directional movement key and pressed 1 and it moved you a short distance in that direction.  Holding W/up of course would do what it does now. 
.....

In other news though, found something kind of fun and funny for yall to take a look at.  Made this a couple days ago and just got around to uploading it last night.  One program I used kept crashing and then I thought I only uploaded it in 360p, but YT just hadn't processed it yet. 

Funnel nado's are like little piranhas now.

I don't really want to post this in general in its own thread because its not something I really want seen and way out there (also its just horribly unedited for now and doesn't need to be seen by general pop.  I don't do this normally and don't plan on doing a bunch of YT content, but when something comes along worth analyzing or looking at..I'm down).  But considering the specific people I wanted to show this finding to are basically all in this thread, I figure this may be the place to post. If you feel its hijacking, I'll remove it and toss it in another post.
 

 

Looks like it'd be good for stripping armor, but the -range requirement looks like it'd be painful in practice. I used to do something similar when focus 1.0 Madurai would give tornadoes slash damage, but I'd only used it against infested, since Turbulence has few uses against them. Piranhas, indeed. Such a setup might also go well with a Condition Overload melee.

Edited February 12, 2018 by Xrkr

[Arkenai7]

Having played a bit more since rework, I think I'm most disappointed in the tornadoes. They don't seem to be holding enemies much better at all, and going for a range increase results in all sorts of funky things with tornadoes going on adventures to other continents.

Of course, the prophet Thaylien has suggested solutions to this. But I thought I'd explicitly indicate my agreement on that particular point, as I think it's important.

 

Tailwind I have mixed feelings. We've still got a fair bit of clunk, though there are some neat new things. Bless the halved energy cost air casting, plains is a joy! Immensely pleased to see a DE tweet mention this thread, so am hopeful for some nice tweaks.

[Birdframe_Prime]

10 minutes ago, Arkenai7 said:

Of course, the prophet Thaylien has suggested solutions to this.

If I get a Forum title, I expect it to be this...

XD

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

Glad to see our great Zephyr savior Thaylien is finally getting through to DE with his ideas.

You hit all of the issues right on the head, but I am still a bit annoyed by the fact that DE contradicted themselves because "Zephyr is hard". They restricted so many great ideas out there like yours or mine, and I'd honestly prefer some of those (obviously because I would mostly always prefer my own iteration) over the ones we got.

Air Burst is just about as useful as Psychic Bolts for me, and Tornadoes are still disappointing (and still deal magnetic damage). I think @Operative_Shift also got it right with his thoughts. And even more so on Tail Wind/Dive Bomb.

If we can have Tail Wind and Dive Bomb be separate again, I'd like mine, but otherwise, these ideas here really work. ^^

[Terrornaut]

3 hours ago, Xrkr said:

Looks like it'd be good for stripping armor, but the -range requirement looks like it'd be painful in practice. I used to do something similar when focus 1.0 Madurai would give tornadoes slash damage, but I'd only used it against infested, since Turbulence has few uses against them. Piranhas, indeed. Such a setup might also go well with a Condition Overload melee.

If you have to deal with explosives, yeah its definitely dangerous. Though, I'm using to having to move everywhere to deal with those as Ember anyway, so I just get a little bit of that frantic play with Zeph when there are dangerous enemies around.  This setup can be pretty devastating though, but you do lose out on protection vs explosions and silly area of effect with air burst...but...tornados is so much better this way.

26 minutes ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

Glad to see our great Zephyr savior Thaylien is finally getting through to DE with his ideas.

You hit all of the issues right on the head, but I am still a bit annoyed by the fact that DE contradicted themselves because "Zephyr is hard". They restricted so many great ideas out there like yours or mine, and I'd honestly prefer some of those (obviously because I would mostly always prefer my own iteration) over the ones we got.

Air Burst is just about as useful as Psychic Bolts for me, and Tornadoes are still disappointing (and still deal magnetic damage). I think @Operative_Shift also got it right with his thoughts. And even more so on Tail Wind/Dive Bomb.

If we can have Tail Wind and Dive Bomb be separate again, I'd like mine, but otherwise, these ideas here really work. ^^

I mean, Air Burst is ok conceptually, it was just poorly implemented. With a large range build, it can send a field flying and ragdolling away.  I would have rather have had divebomb vortex and divebomb be greatly improved.

I'm fine with the merger, I'm definitely not asking them to revert it, just to fix TW so its not obnoxious to use so you're faceplanting into a wall for 3 seconds straight.  Won't bother going over the suggestions cause the best I've seen to take care of it has come from Thaylien.

[Foberon]

Some intresting things that i found is :

- If you aim after a charged tailwing before the animation launch you to its top distance you can actually stop the lanching and position your hover to the extact point you start to aim. The good thing about this is that you have some good control on where you gona hover to avoid the obscuring thing that happening at the top of the animation.

- Funnel clouds augment, if you use your second ability wind burst on those tornadoes you actually make them in size similar to your normal tornadoes and they start lifting enemies like normal. This is kinda intresting!!

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, Foberon said:

If you aim after a charged tailwing before the animation launch you to its top distance you can actually stop the lanching and position your hover to the extact point you start to aim. The good thing about this is that you have some good control on where you gona hover to avoid the obscuring thing that happening at the top of the animation.

We noticed, but thank you for taking the time ^^ 

My personal issue is that it's just not as controllable or as predictable as we'd like (if some of us actually like it at all...) and even just a short charge on a lot of tiles is problematic, all it needs is for a bit of geometry to be hanging nearby and you're completely blocked off by your own character model.

2 hours ago, Foberon said:

- Funnel clouds augment, if you use your second ability wind burst on those tornadoes you actually make them in size similar to your normal tornadoes and they start lifting enemies like normal. This is kinda intresting!!

Found that too ^^ especially useful when they're grouped up and so you can get 12 regular funnels.

[Caelward]

If they're only worried about small tweaks to her Air Burst and Tornado, the charge and stationary aspects of tailwind probably aren't going away.

Which basically just exhausts me at this point. Never asked for it, never wanted it. Argued against it whenever I saw the idea come up. Argued against it as soon as I saw the patch notes. And here we are.

Then again, I've barely played warframe for the last couple months. I was hoping maybe the Zephyr rework would reinvigorate me, give me something I'd like to try out. Well, that's failed. I tried it and was left not just wanting, but outright repulsed. Guess that settles that.

[ObviousLee]

@Thaylien 

i actually have a workaround for the tight confined spaces issue. It's a two fold fix that only part of which has been implemented in the past a few times, but the latter has yet to be but I believe effectively could be.

So, first off, give an extra meter or two width to tileset hallways, and that halfway remedies the inherent issue of constant flight. This has been done in the past, most notably in U12 when zephyr was introduced. Secondly, is a two part solution in tandem with changing tailwind to a persistent flight mode: remove the duration attachment to tailwind and make it strength scaling for lets say burst speed. You then tie stock flight speed to sprint speed, and your sprint key now makes you do the burst speed that we're used to seeing in current tailwind use. So, if it's set up like this I imagine a lot of issues being fixed, but that's up for discussion.

So, here's what I'm thinking. Tailwind distance and speed set for power strength, and the quick burst we all use is set to the pressing of 1. Now, for the actual flight mechanic, we utilize the charge function. Now as for hover we can use either the aim function to engage the hover as to make mapping easier for controller users, or the jump feature. Either way (personally I'm partial to the aim function to allow for the use of the hover but that's just me).

So what this winds up doing is the use of all the currently existing mechanics OF tailwind, but in a more controlled and cohesive function without having to min/max your tailwind versus the rest of your kit for nearly universal application.  Hover can still be used frequently, and tactically, tailwind now has much greater control, the tilesets can now accomodate the use of the skill better, and we can now actually focus on building for travel speed effectively while bolstering the rest of her kit at the same time. And ultimately, this gives answer to my burning desire to see Zephyr put on par as a viable option to Titania as opposed to one being subjectively better in terms of mechanics. It ALSO allows for one to effectively build around and for her new tailwind augment instead of it being useless as it currently is.

 

Copy pasta from some of my input on two other threads. Your thoughts? 

[Birdframe_Prime]

16 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

Copy pasta from some of my input on two other threads. Your thoughts? 

Sadly, Mr Lee, I think we've kind of had this conversation before ^^

As enthusiastic as you are and as well intentioned as you are, I even think this hover mechanic is a useless bit of fluff, let alone flying. We had to agree to disagree in the past, and, with respect, I'm going to disagree with you here.

Flying is not a functional mechanic in Warframe in general, Titania is a very good example of that, because you wouldn't just have to expend the hallways by a bit, you would have to make all of the tiles 75% bigger to accommodate the full-speed flight of a full-sized frame, why else do you think Titania shrinks to 25% of regular warframe size? The momentum on Tailwind is bad enough as it is now, flinging you against geometry and leaving you to grind, without incorporating momentum into her base movement too, like Nezha's lack of friction, by taking her feet off the ground permanently.

You raise a good point about the Duration affecting Tailwind, and I would prefer it just be a Range/Strength based cast that goes faster or further depending on those two, and is completely re-castable at any time instead of being locked in to this thruster form to counter the parts where we get our beak grounded.

The Augment is a completely separate aspect here, because it doesn't really matter whether you're flying or not, it's an issue of the fact that no enemies regularly go above jumping height from the ground. The Grineer Hellion, a boss, and that's about it. Everything else uses jet-packs just to jump or hovers at shoulder height. It completely negates the height aspect of Zephyr, and often is self-countering by virtue of you needing to aim into places where you either parkour (resetting the ability) to turn, thanks to the momentum, or you land at the end of the cast. Unless your flying mode keeps her off the ground permanently, even when she's touching it, then the augment wouldn't work, and if your feet are never touching the ground, your momentum is going to make quick mobility objectively worse.

So... while I appreciate your input, I genuinely believe you're looking in the exact opposite direction to what a warframe, even Zephyr, needs.

[Kounavia]

Feels to me like they made zephyr's "rework" entirely based on plains of shoved-down-our-throats.

 

[ObviousLee]

10 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Sadly, Mr Lee, I think we've kind of had this conversation before ^^

As enthusiastic as you are and as well intentioned as you are, I even think this hover mechanic is a useless bit of fluff, let alone flying. We had to agree to disagree in the past, and, with respect, I'm going to disagree with you here.

Flying is not a functional mechanic in Warframe in general, Titania is a very good example of that, because you wouldn't just have to expend the hallways by a bit, you would have to make all of the tiles 75% bigger to accommodate the full-speed flight of a full-sized frame, why else do you think Titania shrinks to 25% of regular warframe size? The momentum on Tailwind is bad enough as it is now, flinging you against geometry and leaving you to grind, without incorporating momentum into her base movement too, like Nezha's lack of friction, by taking her feet off the ground permanently.

You raise a good point about the Duration affecting Tailwind, and I would prefer it just be a Range/Strength based cast that goes faster or further depending on those two, and is completely re-castable at any time instead of being locked in to this thruster form to counter the parts where we get our beak grounded.

The Augment is a completely separate aspect here, because it doesn't really matter whether you're flying or not, it's an issue of the fact that no enemies regularly go above jumping height from the ground. The Grineer Hellion, a boss, and that's about it. Everything else uses jet-packs just to jump or hovers at shoulder height. It completely negates the height aspect of Zephyr, and often is self-countering by virtue of you needing to aim into places where you either parkour (resetting the ability) to turn, thanks to the momentum, or you land at the end of the cast. Unless your flying mode keeps her off the ground permanently, even when she's touching it, then the augment wouldn't work, and if your feet are never touching the ground, your momentum is going to make quick mobility objectively worse.

So... while I appreciate your input, I genuinely believe you're looking in the exact opposite direction to what a warframe, even Zephyr, needs.

And to contest your counter point, as mentioned in my copy pasta, the stock flight speed could simply mirror your non sprinting run speed. This counters the momentum issue, the collision issue, and the narrow tiles and hallways issue. The aim for hover still uses the mechanic DE wants to use, still allows for standard tailwind usage and gives the option for flight for those of us that want it. 

Edited February 13, 2018 by ObviousLee

[EchoesOfRain]

A bit surprised that nobody has commented on yesterday's hotfix and the small changes to Zephyr they did. No changes to Tailwind (yet), but Air Burst did get a speed increase which makes it feel much better already. There were a couple of other small tweaks but that stood out the most to me. Praying for some good tailwind/hover changes soon.

 

Also, just a quick little augment suggestion. Air Burst Vortex: When Air Burst explodes, creates a stationary tornado at the point of explosion for 2 seconds that sucks in enemies and deals multiple slash procs over it's duration. 

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, Oralech said:

Feels to me like they made zephyr's "rework" entirely based on plains of shoved-down-our-throats.

I see where you're coming from, but no, Air Burst isn't so good in tight spaces, but it's amazing in corridors and rooms while Tornado is now better for those times when you would never have cast it before (defenses or exterminates or survivals where killing enemies quickly and efficiently is desirable). Both of these abilities are sadly rather lack-luster on the plains because of the distances involved.

2 hours ago, ObviousLee said:

And to contest your counter point, as mentioned in my copy pasta, the stock flight speed could simply mirror your non sprinting run speed. This counters the momentum issue, the collision issue, and the narrow tiles and hallways issue. The aim for hover still uses the mechanic DE wants to use, still allows for standard tailwind usage and gives the option for flight for those of us that want it. 

I'm still not seeing how this is better than the other proposed changes for the ability. The current best mobility in the game is the Operator Dash (when you unbind Naramon and use Zenurik for quick energy regen), if we had a longer, slightly momentum carrying version of that for Zephyr, then her movement would be unrivalled. It would even make sense for the Augment that requires you to not land or latch on anything in order to function.

I mean, have you seen this? This is what the Operator dash can do:

Spoiler

https://clips-media-assets.twitch.tv/191968472.mp4#t=0

And even then I still don't see how flight's an upgrade to any warframe. Flight/hovering is a gimmick, it doesn't actually help, because the game content is on the ground. I don't expect to see a fully grounded Zephyr, I just want to make sure I'm not having to toggle basic functions back on every time I want to do something.

1 hour ago, EchoesOfRain said:

A bit surprised that nobody has commented on yesterday's hotfix and the small changes to Zephyr they did.

Because it barely changed anything. While Air Burst now takes two seconds to hit ground from the Hover instead of three, and the funnels can be directed faster... there's nothing to see there.

DEScott just ignored any potential fixes to the current buggy state of Tailwind, and didn't address any of the issues with Tornado about the regular movement speed, enemy seek, range, reliability... any of that. Even the 'grow with firing Airburst in' function seems to do nothing else but physically make the funnels taller, no buff, no damage boost, no duration or range boost... nothing, just bigger animation.

[Terrornaut]

1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

I mean, have you seen this? This is what the Operator dash can do:

Warframe can be so strangely beautiful.
 

1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

DEScott just ignored any potential fixes to the current buggy state of Tailwind, and didn't address any of the issues with Tornado about the regular movement speed, enemy seek, range, reliability... any of that. Even the 'grow with firing Airburst in' function seems to do nothing else but physically make the funnels taller, no buff, no damage boost, no duration or range boost... nothing, just bigger animation.

DE ranges from creating masterfully crafted incredible gameplay experiences to on occasion, implementing things your own poop would say smells bad. Usually, for me anyway, they create things more things that are great by far than things that are bad.  I just hope they continue to refine these recent things and don't Channeling/Archwing/Zephyr/Excal RJ Viver them because they think they did a thing and now its ok that they did a thing when....they have released a minimum viable product with questionable foundation...in Zeph and Ember.  That's my biggest fear...that in a week with some negligible changes that they don't test or that with momentarily lowered standards they feel are ok, they move on to some new shiny thing.  DE proves their capable of amazing things, from art to storytelling/cutscenes to gameplay mechanics and responsiveness (TW and tornadoes are not responsive and anti-warframe's flow), audio, and generally pretty ethical/straightforward f2p monetization (..comparatively, we know), but here and there they half-&#! things and then neglect them too.  We know they are wholly capable of fixing and improving these aspects, in this case, Zephyr's functionality, but will they?  The changes to airburst are a sign and step in the right direction, and I can certainly understand releasing things undertuned so as not to have roaring feedback if you're to overtune and scale back, but...DE you made parkour 2.0 and the melee system happen and work well.  What...is this?  (like, tailwind mod? huh? How was this a good idea to add optional functionality or a new option or expand gameplay?)

I guess you have spoiled us with quality and good expectations DE.

But it is also only Tuesday.  So, me and people as ridiculous as I need to chill and try and trust that they're going to get things done.  Scary to have faith without real transparency though.
 

Edited February 13, 2018 by Terrornaut

[ObviousLee]

55 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

 

I'm still not seeing how this is better than the other proposed changes for the ability. The current best mobility in the game is the Operator Dash (when you unbind Naramon and use Zenurik for quick energy regen), if we had a longer, slightly momentum carrying version of that for Zephyr, then her movement would be unrivalled. It would even make sense for the Augment that requires you to not land or latch on anything in order to function.

I mean, have you seen this? This is what the Operator dash can do:

  Reveal hidden contents

https://clips-media-assets.twitch.tv/191968472.mp4#t=0

And even then I still don't see how flight's an upgrade to any warframe. Flight/hovering is a gimmick, it doesn't actually help, because the game content is on the ground. I don't expect to see a fully grounded Zephyr, I just want to make sure I'm not having to toggle basic functions back on every time I want to do something.

 

Yes, I've seen what operators can do in terms of dashing and it's quite fantastic. It should be an option, not the only answer to rectifying tailwinds issues.

As for why flight adds to the combat theater, I've my military experience and my aviation experience to pull from. Air superiority rapidly changes how a battle is fought. It allows for ranged attacks with relative safety to the attacker, and disrupts enemy movements. I can personally attest to the amount of operations I've taken part in that had we not had air superiority and observation we'd have lost the entirety of the province in which I was stationed. Titania is able to do essentially just that, and with her augment for razorwing she's again, faster than almost anything else the game can perform, but that also does require a nonsense level of power strength buffing to make it even feasible.

So, tailwind functioning as I've laid it out allows for multiple preferential use, instead of being confined to a singular method of travel. It appeases both communities in relation to the ability while simultaneously rectifying the inherent issues of tailwind and makes the augment even usable if not fantastic to build around. She still gets the burst travel everyone likes, the charge mechanic will actually have a worthwhile reason to be used, the hover mechanic still is able to function, and in the end there's no reason that I can discern that everyone wouldn't be happy.

[Terrornaut]

24 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

Yes, I've seen what operators can do in terms of dashing and it's quite fantastic. It should be an option, not the only answer to rectifying tailwinds issues.

As for why flight adds to the combat theater, I've my military experience and my aviation experience to pull from. Air superiority rapidly changes how a battle is fought. It allows for ranged attacks with relative safety to the attacker, and disrupts enemy movements. I can personally attest to the amount of operations I've taken part in that had we not had air superiority and observation we'd have lost the entirety of the province in which I was stationed. Titania is able to do essentially just that, and with her augment for razorwing she's again, faster than almost anything else the game can perform, but that also does require a nonsense level of power strength buffing to make it even feasible.

So, tailwind functioning as I've laid it out allows for multiple preferential use, instead of being confined to a singular method of travel. It appeases both communities in relation to the ability while simultaneously rectifying the inherent issues of tailwind and makes the augment even usable if not fantastic to build around. She still gets the burst travel everyone likes, the charge mechanic will actually have a worthwhile reason to be used, the hover mechanic still is able to function, and in the end there's no reason that I can discern that everyone wouldn't be happy.

I didn't quite like or fully grasp your suggestion the first time, and mainly the suggestion that they take maps was a little off putting, but this made me go back and reconsider your original post.

So, I could see some good in it.  Here's what I think after:
Press 1 launches Zeph as currently implemented, but if you press spacebar or aim during TW's effect, she stops and activates current hover functionality and it lasts based on her duration + aim glide stats. Get rid of the charge, this frame does not need the slow clunkiness of a charge mechanic.  It was cool the first cast and pretty bad after that.  While hover is active, if you press duck, she drops down like you were normal falling.  If she hits a surface while TW launch is active, she immediately regains control or wall clings.  If you aim at the ground like current functionality, it divebombs.

It needs to change from accelerating via a vector over time to ....something else.  Even if it has to be made broken up into something that projects a ray every .5 sec or something that refreshes the ability until its total distance/duration is met.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Terrornaut

[ObviousLee]

45 minutes ago, Terrornaut said:

I didn't quite like or fully grasp your suggestion the first time, and mainly the suggestion that they take maps was a little off putting, but this made me go back and reconsider your original post.

So, I could see some good in it.  Here's what I think after:
Press 1 launches Zeph as currently implemented, but if you press spacebar or aim during TW's effect, she stops and activates current hover functionality and it lasts based on her duration + aim glide stats. Get rid of the charge, this frame does not need the slow clunkiness of a charge mechanic.  It was cool the first cast and pretty bad after that.  While hover is active, if you press duck, she drops down like you were normal falling.  If she hits a surface while TW launch is active, she immediately regains control or wall clings.  If you aim at the ground like current functionality, it divebombs.

It needs to change from accelerating via a vector over time to ....something else.  Even if it has to be made broken up into something that projects a ray every .5 sec or something that refreshes the ability until its total distance/duration is met.

Well, the reasoning behind my suggestion of slightly enlarging the mpas is as mentioned before, tit's already been done. There's already a precedent for it, so why not use it again if it's necessary.

Secondly, Although I agree that the charge mechanic and the hover mechanic aren't exactly something that was massively requested, it's still here. So why not use it? if the actual persistent flight is limited specifically to the charge then it doesn't step on the burst travel people know and like. It becomes a literal instance of "don't like it, don't have to use it as opposed to the option not even being available which would be a bother in my mind. So, if distance and speed are the factors to be determined for just the burst, then strength builds would probably be the best stat to mod for in my eyes, or possibly range? Not entirely sure honestly but that's why we're here; to discuss.

however if distance of travel is removed from modding requirements for the persistent flight, then the travel speed can still be effected by power strength, so this solves a few problems. As far as aim to cancel out of tailwind's burst and persistent flight? Hell yea I can definitely get behind that as it gives more manual control to the player instead of being reliant on mods or circumstance to end the animation.

But I'm against the notion of tailwind only needing to be a burst flight mode when it has the potential to be so much more. It can be done in such a way as to appease the entirety of the zephyr fan base relatively easily if it's just aligned properly. I also personally feel that divebomb on enemy collision would rectify a lot of issues with tailwind. Think of it like this; You either burst forward or fly forward and the divebomb is triggered in a constant effect during the path of travel. This would essentially turn her tailwind into a full on aerial bulldozer. If she's knocking down entire lines of enemies during her flight, she's providing crowd control just by being there, which also ties into her augment, while also being able to cancel out of tailwind by virtue of the hover aspect. I personally don't like the limitation of divebomb being a down only ability, but that's partially a personal preference issue.

 

Edit. Vector over time doesn't make sense as you've described it. Vectors are direction and speed.

Edited February 13, 2018 by ObviousLee

[PsiWarp]

Tons of good feedback in here. I do hope more changes are coming to make her feel great to use and less overshooting/smack into walls and stay glued there with Tail Wind.

As for the hovering, maybe add a timer on the ability icon when hovering so it's easier to tell how much time I have left in the air.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, ObviousLee said:

As for why flight adds to the combat theater, I've my military experience and my aviation experience to pull from. Air superiority rapidly changes how a battle is fought. It allows for ranged attacks with relative safety to the attacker, and disrupts enemy movements. I can personally attest to the amount of operations I've taken part in that had we not had air superiority and observation we'd have lost the entirety of the province in which I was stationed.

You've said this before, and my counter was simply that this isn't a military action game, it's a horde shooter, enemies disrupt themselves regularly by poor pathing and damage can be reduced by something as simple as rolling. The enemy is not intelligent.

Air superiority is wonderful, it's just not needed in Warframe because the method of engagement with the enemy is so vastly different, in fact unless you overhaul how the rest of the game is played it's often not even wanted in Warframe.

I don't doubt your military experience, it's the application in this setting that I question. Even further when you consider your proposed implementation; the game engine would either need to use Archwing Mode, which would force you out of the usual gameplay setting the same as it does for Titania and Plains Archwing, making you unable to pick up loot unless you were on it, have to deactivate to interact with the rest of the game, your pets and sentinels would be left behind, and so on, or you'd need to program an entire new movement system to accomplish this. It's investment in the ability that's, to me in specific, and hundreds of others in anecdotal, not worth the result.

I'm not saying that the Operator Dash style of movement is the only way to go, I'm saying that with Tailwind in the current state it's in, it's the best improvement that the Devs can put in without rebuilding Zephyr, or entire parts of the game, from the ground up (which they seem entirely set on not doing, if this rework so far is anything to judge).