Ash's new blade storm, 4 things wrong with it

[ravik75]

Okay, so let me start off by saying i got Ash love. As I do for all the stealth frames. I wouldn't call him my main, but definitely top five. Vomit cam never bothered me. Sort of thought it was nitchy special for him.

So after a few good hours of play time, testing and getting a feel for it, here is everything wrong with the new blade storm! XD

1) The missing man problem - you thought you could sneak off, didn't you?

There are only 2 clones ... you, your ash was the 3rd super stabby murder bot. This means only 2 targets get stabbed at a time. This mean 2/3 the previous dps of blade storm when attacking 3 or more targets. (you thought mesa was kicking your &#! before?) "wait, but I can teleport in too!" is what your saying right? Well that will cost you, baseline 25 energy, up front, to get that same mean dps number. Oh and you hesitated, sorry your human, you were 1 second too lately lining up and pressing 3 on a pre marked target, so 1 second delay from press 4 to pressing 3 successfully. So, now even though you payed 25 energy, if you didn't do a minium of 5 targets marked (2 for 1st stab you missed, 3 for clones 'n you doing 2nd stab) you wasted that 25 energy entirely, you get to see a little cut scene of you, while a clone sits around.

2) The cost reduction bonus for stealth - This just basically doesn't exist, like its a myth in most situations.

Lets look at stats at a baseline stats, it costs 35 energy to cloak, cloaked it costs 6 energy to mark targets vs 12 energy without. so its -6 energy per target. If we divide that by the cost to cloak (35/6) we get roughly 6 .... 6 marks, (a.k.a) to makeup the cost of the cloak you need to mark a minium 6 targets to BREAK EVEN on the energy to used to cloak, only after that, mark number 7,8,9 etc, will you actually get a discount over not bothering to cloak at all. But guess what? Your baseline stats here, rank 3 cloak baseline is 8 seconds, 6 marks in 8 seconds or you lose energy over not cloaking. Oh, and I know your saying "I can do 6 marks on like 2 guys easy". Well here is where it gets worse, if a target dies on the first clone stab, that mark cost is returned to you. While this is better then losing the energy, it still impacts the over all efficiency and you still lose energy the same as not cloaking. (e.g. you cloak, you mark 2 targets with 6 marks, each dies on 1st clone hit, 4 marks worth of decreased cost energy gets returned, but it still only counted as 2 marks cloaked, you lost (35-(6*2)=23) 23 energy over note having cloaked at all) That in mind, I am suggest unless you can mark 6 separate targets at a minium its likely you don't break even on the cost of cloaking. And once again in 8 seconds ;) think fast.

3) Teleporting with clones is useless for making you invulnerable - even if you enjoy the vomit cam :D.

Keep point 1) in mind. So blade storm takes from your melee weapon mods to determine whats gonna happen. Roughly i think it has a base speed of 1.0 for the blade storm clone stabby. This is effected up and down by weapon mods for speed (Spoil strike, Primed furry, etc). But basically if you have a positive speed mod its likely less then 1 second per stab. What does this have to do with anything? Well your paying 25 energy (baseline), how long is this going to last? So straight up, 1.0 speed for 1 second invulnerability per 3 targets, rounding up (cuz you bump a clone) minus 2 targets for not having super human reflexes. (I know some of you do, but all the time? every time? 4 and 3 instantly in sequence, while jumping, rolling, aiming, shoot, etc?) So 5 successful marks = 1 second invulnerability, 7 successful marks = 2 seconds invulnerability .... 17 successful marks = 5 seconds invulnerability. So lets do a compare, assuming you got 17 separate marks cloaked, That is baseline 35 to cloak, 102 energy in marks and another 25 energy for teleport (162 energy total), for 5 second of invulnerability ... lets do a compare! So, 5 second of hysteria on Valkyr baseline will cost you 25 energy + about 17.5 energy channeling (total 42.5 energy), in which shes invulnerable. Yes, yes, yes "but Ash deals more damage, and Valkyr can die of her damage". But honestly, as an experienced Ash player about 50% of the time when get I downed EVER, its immediately as I come out of blade storm. The disorientation, limited duration, change in view directions and lose of momentum (basically getting caught flat footed) have always outweighed the benefits of not being present to take damage from enemies. Compared to Valkyr even without the energy comparison, she can stay orientated, has less of a fixed duration and can position herself specifically to time when she becomes vulnerable again. That is why hysteria is a specific ability. The invulnerability with blade storm can claim none of that, and real should not cost Ash anything. The vomit cam is a mean to an end, not an ability.

4) Button fatigue - press, press, press

Okay, so once upon a time blade storm what simple, press 4. (yes yes, press 4 to win, but it was 1 key stroke) Then we got tagging, press 4, wiggle reticle around in a desperately attempt to show people you know how to aim (your using blade storm cuz your aim was so good to start with right?) and some seconds later press 4 again. Now its press 4, wiggle reticle, press 4 again, aim and press 3 if you want full damage. It doesn't seem like much but rince and repeat 100 times, 1000 times. Basically to get the same outcome as "press 4" used to be. I don't mind more user involvement but there is a limit, and that bluntly is can I do something that is equal too or better with that time. The fewer key strokes it takes more complicated a situation any ability can be used in. It needs to be simple, it needs to be intuitive to use blade storm effectively, and it needs to be strong enough to be worth the energy your expending. A 3 key stroke with extra aiming sounds complicated enough, but lets say you have a couple dozen lv 200 enemies shooting at you and your parkouring for your life half way up a wall. Your about to drop down, you have got land all 3 key strokes and those tags before you land or your dead. (Original blade storm) - aim 1 enemy press 4, you live. (Last revamp) - press 4, quick desperate tag, press 4, you live. (current) - press 4, quick desperate tag, press 4 again, aim at 1 enemy, press 3 ..... think you live? or did you hit the ground first? your glide last that long? enough energy to cloak? you see the problem here right?

In conclusion, this new blade storm really is feelings like a nerf, a nerf of something that was already nerfed. Its easy to complain about the vomit cam, because its obvious, because it keeps some people away from blade storm. But the finer points of the ability outweigh the presentation, and part of the draw back was that disorientation, that flat footed fall after. Call that an asset, make it cost players something, take away some damage for the price of it ... and you just make something much less useful. Things that aren't useful usually end up in the orbiters closet *sigh* ..... *cough* rollback *cough, cough*

[KennBone]

no way the new bladestrom  it´s very fun and usefull. i love how can be more interactive and fast combat.

[FataL-Flaw]

This bladestorm change was a nerf.

1. You previously had, in practice, a guaranteed chance to proc "on finisher" arcane effects.. which for most people was two sets of Arcane Trickery.  This helped make up for Ash's comparatively pathetic stealth duration.  EDIT :(Upon further testing it seems that you can still trigger the arcanes, despite not actually joining in.  They do not seem to be triggering as reliably, though I need to test further.)
2. You were immune to all damage for the entire duration.  I can't even begin to describe the survivability nerf from the change.
3. You were able to vacuum drops during the cutscene...IE Energy Orbs...to keep your energy up enough to recast the ability again.
4. ???
5. If it were not intended as a nerf in all the ways I described, they would have implemented a much easier way for you to replicate the old behavior, such as:

• Activate bladestorm with ability held to allow Ash to join in.
• Activate bladestorm while channeling to allow Ash to join in.
• Change/Add the relatively unused bladestorm augment mod, to allow Ash to join in.

Hopefully, (not holding my breath) they make it easier to achieve the old bladestorm behavior, if they actually intended for it to not be a nerf.

Edited March 5, 2018 by FataL-Flaw

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Yeah. The dps is actually slightly higher.

The original build didn't have primed fury, nor riven mods that push the attack speed, so min/maxed, it did about 3x130%= 390% -> 3,9 times the damage compared to unmoddet singletarget whereover 2x250%-> 500% does 5x the damage. That is if you're not participating. If you do, it's 3x250%-> 750% what's about 2 times the damage. 

Compared to the previous rework, you do solid 2x and 3x the dps on the same damage/target.

Invisibility also isn't only a reduction. It's your line of defense and a multiplier to melee damage, so it's somewhat of a flawed flow of thought to state numbers where it pays off... rather then that, you're getting a reduction while you're practicly invincible for a very low cost to begin with. When you're using trickery, you don't even need to pay for that. Not to mention ash's rather decent stats, that allow him to use rage/hunter to toggle between energy management and invincibility. In higher levels, a single stray bullet or a tick from a mine is plenty to fill your pool while you're able to stay invisible 24/7.

Trickery also ticks the same as before. You need to have actuall kills for it to have effect, aka in long runs a built up combo counter or multiple marks...you've been testing it in the simulator with none of that, didn't you?

He's essencially better then before in every aspect except for the auto pilot, which is slowly but steadily beein nerfed from the game. But don't mind me. You don't seem to like him, given the effort to complain about false stuff so you may as well play something else. Enjoy the few exceptations (any frame other then mesa left?) for as long as they last. You won't be able to do the damage ash can do with her and playing turret is 100x worse then a "vomit cam" in my oppinion but really, go ahead.

 

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

On 2/10/2018 at 6:30 PM, ravik75 said:

This means only 2 targets get stabbed at a time. This mean 2/3 the previous dps of blade storm when attacking 3 or more targets

As far as damage, it's actually very possibly an increase. You forgot to add in the dps from your equipped weapons to that calculation, since the rework wasn't intended for you to AFK while your clones do all of the work.

Edit: To clarify, I mean mark a group on one side for your clones to kill, while you dps a separate group of enemies. No reason to overlap on your own marked targets unless you have buyers remorse on the energy cost. XD

Edited March 5, 2018 by (PS4)Riko_113

[Ham_Grenabe]

The only thing I'd like to see changed is removing the target marking. Just have it affect A/B/C/D targets in an arc in front of you (moddable like Oberon's Hallowed Ground). It's not an exalted weapon, I really don't want to have to individually pick each target it affects. 

Edited March 5, 2018 by Ham_Grenabe

[Anthraxicus]

Bladestorm has only one problem imo. The aiming part. It should function like Mesa

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

On 2/10/2018 at 5:30 PM, ravik75 said:

Okay, so let me start off by saying i got Ash love. As I do for all the stealth frames. I wouldn't call him my main, but definitely top five. Vomit cam never bothered me. Sort of thought it was nitchy special for him.

So after a few good hours of play time, testing and getting a feel for it, here is everything wrong with the new blade storm! XD

1) The missing man problem - you thought you could sneak off, didn't you?

There are only 2 clones ... you, your ash was the 3rd super stabby murder bot. This means only 2 targets get stabbed at a time. This mean 2/3 the previous dps of blade storm when attacking 3 or more targets. (you thought mesa was kicking your &#! before?) "wait, but I can teleport in too!" is what your saying right? Well that will cost you, baseline 25 energy, up front, to get that same mean dps number. Oh and you hesitated, sorry your human, you were 1 second too lately lining up and pressing 3 on a pre marked target, so 1 second delay from press 4 to pressing 3 successfully. So, now even though you payed 25 energy, if you didn't do a minium of 5 targets marked (2 for 1st stab you missed, 3 for clones 'n you doing 2nd stab) you wasted that 25 energy entirely, you get to see a little cut scene of you, while a clone sits around.

2) The cost reduction bonus for stealth - This just basically doesn't exist, like its a myth in most situations.

Lets look at stats at a baseline stats, it costs 35 energy to cloak, cloaked it costs 6 energy to mark targets vs 12 energy without. so its -6 energy per target. If we divide that by the cost to cloak (35/6) we get roughly 6 .... 6 marks, (a.k.a) to makeup the cost of the cloak you need to mark a minium 6 targets to BREAK EVEN on the energy to used to cloak, only after that, mark number 7,8,9 etc, will you actually get a discount over not bothering to cloak at all. But guess what? Your baseline stats here, rank 3 cloak baseline is 8 seconds, 6 marks in 8 seconds or you lose energy over not cloaking. Oh, and I know your saying "I can do 6 marks on like 2 guys easy". Well here is where it gets worse, if a target dies on the first clone stab, that mark cost is returned to you. While this is better then losing the energy, it still impacts the over all efficiency and you still lose energy the same as not cloaking. (e.g. you cloak, you mark 2 targets with 6 marks, each dies on 1st clone hit, 4 marks worth of decreased cost energy gets returned, but it still only counted as 2 marks cloaked, you lost (35-(6*2)=23) 23 energy over note having cloaked at all) That in mind, I am suggest unless you can mark 6 separate targets at a minium its likely you don't break even on the cost of cloaking. And once again in 8 seconds ;) think fast.

3) Teleporting with clones is useless for making you invulnerable - even if you enjoy the vomit cam :D.

Keep point 1) in mind. So blade storm takes from your melee weapon mods to determine whats gonna happen. Roughly i think it has a base speed of 1.0 for the blade storm clone stabby. This is effected up and down by weapon mods for speed (Spoil strike, Primed furry, etc). But basically if you have a positive speed mod its likely less then 1 second per stab. What does this have to do with anything? Well your paying 25 energy (baseline), how long is this going to last? So straight up, 1.0 speed for 1 second invulnerability per 3 targets, rounding up (cuz you bump a clone) minus 2 targets for not having super human reflexes. (I know some of you do, but all the time? every time? 4 and 3 instantly in sequence, while jumping, rolling, aiming, shoot, etc?) So 5 successful marks = 1 second invulnerability, 7 successful marks = 2 seconds invulnerability .... 17 successful marks = 5 seconds invulnerability. So lets do a compare, assuming you got 17 separate marks cloaked, That is baseline 35 to cloak, 102 energy in marks and another 25 energy for teleport (162 energy total), for 5 second of invulnerability ... lets do a compare! So, 5 second of hysteria on Valkyr baseline will cost you 25 energy + about 17.5 energy channeling (total 42.5 energy), in which shes invulnerable. Yes, yes, yes "but Ash deals more damage, and Valkyr can die of her damage". But honestly, as an experienced Ash player about 50% of the time when get I downed EVER, its immediately as I come out of blade storm. The disorientation, limited duration, change in view directions and lose of momentum (basically getting caught flat footed) have always outweighed the benefits of not being present to take damage from enemies. Compared to Valkyr even without the energy comparison, she can stay orientated, has less of a fixed duration and can position herself specifically to time when she becomes vulnerable again. That is why hysteria is a specific ability. The invulnerability with blade storm can claim none of that, and real should not cost Ash anything. The vomit cam is a mean to an end, not an ability.

4) Button fatigue - press, press, press

Okay, so once upon a time blade storm what simple, press 4. (yes yes, press 4 to win, but it was 1 key stroke) Then we got tagging, press 4, wiggle reticle around in a desperately attempt to show people you know how to aim (your using blade storm cuz your aim was so good to start with right?) and some seconds later press 4 again. Now its press 4, wiggle reticle, press 4 again, aim and press 3 if you want full damage. It doesn't seem like much but rince and repeat 100 times, 1000 times. Basically to get the same outcome as "press 4" used to be. I don't mind more user involvement but there is a limit, and that bluntly is can I do something that is equal too or better with that time. The fewer key strokes it takes more complicated a situation any ability can be used in. It needs to be simple, it needs to be intuitive to use blade storm effectively, and it needs to be strong enough to be worth the energy your expending. A 3 key stroke with extra aiming sounds complicated enough, but lets say you have a couple dozen lv 200 enemies shooting at you and your parkouring for your life half way up a wall. Your about to drop down, you have got land all 3 key strokes and those tags before you land or your dead. (Original blade storm) - aim 1 enemy press 4, you live. (Last revamp) - press 4, quick desperate tag, press 4, you live. (current) - press 4, quick desperate tag, press 4 again, aim at 1 enemy, press 3 ..... think you live? or did you hit the ground first? your glide last that long? enough energy to cloak? you see the problem here right?

In conclusion, this new blade storm really is feelings like a nerf, a nerf of something that was already nerfed. Its easy to complain about the vomit cam, because its obvious, because it keeps some people away from blade storm. But the finer points of the ability outweigh the presentation, and part of the draw back was that disorientation, that flat footed fall after. Call that an asset, make it cost players something, take away some damage for the price of it ... and you just make something much less useful. Things that aren't useful usually end up in the orbiters closet *sigh* ..... *cough* rollback *cough, cough*

I don't know if this was the case when the rework rolled out, but it's current state does not reflect what your post says.

1. Using Teleport on a marked target costs no energy. Using it on an unmarked enemy does cost energy, but still puts you in Bladestorm (I don't like this, but that's how it works). Also, Bladestorm is meant to be used on large numbers of enemies, not a few dudes in a hallway. That's what Shuriken/weapons are for.
2. As said above, you aren't intended to use Bladestorm on two enemies. Also, build for duration. Teleport and Bladestorm have more than enough default range, so as long as you don't try to go 300% power strength you should be able to build for 200%+ power duration. My current build has ~200% duration and ~200% strength, and everything dies easily, and I can stay invisible for the entire time.
3. Bladestorm was never good for its invulnerability, unless you had Arcane Trickery. The problem of being caught out in the open has been there since the ability was introduced. I don't get what you are complaining about.
4. I can actually understand where you are coming from on this one, but unfortunately, DE has decided that players constantly pressing buttons is better that only pressing them occasionally. Just look at the latest changes to Banshee and Ember. So, while I do agree, DE doesn't, and won't be changing it back any time soon.