The only challenge in Warframe is how fast you can cheese through missions. Why newbies leave

[(PSN)Snypomaniac]

After 500 hours I can say the single biggest flaw of the gameplay itself, is that mostly it's highly cheesable, and as such not challenging enough to not convert the whole game into a huge grindfest, with some fashionframe on top. 

And mostly I mean the general simple missions. Especially for new or below 300 hours players (and they are the huge majority, if I'm not mistaken). A lot of people will disagree with all this, but mainly because they are veterans here on the forums.

You can basically run through every alert, every planet node without a single breeze of challenge. Except when you solo it, which is more tedious than challenging. Until you get Limbo... Basic missions are a joke. They are running-flying-AOEing simulators. With four squadmates threat and challenge is simply nonexistent. The only challenge in warframe is how fast you can cheese yourself through missions. 

As a new player I wanted to make a clan dedicated to 2-3-player only runs, because with 4 players it's just cheese. But such a clan is not viable. And again, soloing is too tedious, you will cheese that as well. As a max 200 hours player it's very hard not to feel empty and leave to use your time better. 

"Why new players leave Warframe..." - because they soon realize that it's a long long grindfest, with the really challenging things hidden behind hundreds of hours of these simple missions, hundreds of hours of cheese. And when they get to these end-game activities, like Sorties, Raids or Eidolons, they will be able to cheese most of these as well...

Why is it such a shame? Because the combat system is amazing, but the combat itself is not challenging thus engaging, like in Mass Effect or dare I say Destiny. Warframe's combat system is waaay better, but the simple fact, that Destiny is not that cheesable (because of the sh#t speed), makes it a better game regarding combat! That is so painful! Like being Achilles in a nuclear war or something. 

I'm a grind-addict, so I will keep play Warframe, but only until Anthem, I think. And this is the main decisive reason why. 

Solutions? I don't know. For example closing an area down until the enemies are cleared, would make the game feel more engaging. Veterans will laugh about this, but in my first one-two hundred hours I always wanted this, and not just run though the whole map to get the reward. Gameplay has to be the most rewarding. - This would require way better rewards at the end of it of course, calculated by the added time.

Thanks for listening. 

------------------

Edit:  I now agree with y'all, that a complete overhaul of the overall combat would be bad. Cheesing is fun, as well; but missions which utilize the full capacity of the combat system (not with restrictions) would make the game more complete and satisfying. 

Edited February 18, 2018 by (PS4)Snypomaniac

[WhiteMarker]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Snypomaniac said:

Especially for new or below 300 hours players (and they are the huge majority).

Would you mind posting your source?

[BlackCoMerc]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)Snypomaniac said:

After 500 hours I can say the single biggest flaw of the gameplay itself, is that mostly it's highly cheesable, and as such not challenging enough to not convert the whole game into a huge grindfest, with some fashionframe on top. 

And mostly I mean the general simple missions. Especially for new or below 300 hours players (and they are the huge majority). A lot of people will disagree with all this, but mainly because they are veterans here on the forums.

You can basically run through every alert, every planet node without a single breeze of challenge. Except when you solo it, which is more tedious than challenging. Until you get Limbo... Basic missions are a joke. They are running-flying-AOEing simulators. With four squadmates threat and challenge is simply nonexistent. The only challenge in warframe is how fast you can cheese yourself through missions. 

As a new player I wanted to make a clan dedicated to 2-3-player only runs, because with 4 players it's just cheese. But such a clan is not viable. And again, soloing is too tedious, you will cheese that as well. As a max 200 hours player it's very hard not to feel empty and leave to use your time better. 

"Why new players leave Warframe..." - because they soon realize that it's a long long grindfest, with the really challenging things hidden behind hundreds of hours of these simple missions, hundreds of hours of cheese. And when they get to these end-game activities, like Sorties, Raids or Eidolons, they will be able to cheese most of these as well...

Solutions? I don't know. For example closing an area down until the enemies are cleared, would make the game feel more engaging. Veterans will laugh about this, but in my first one-two hundred hours I always wanted this, and not just run though the whole map to get the reward. Gameplay has to be the most rewarding. - This would require way better rewards at the end of it of course, calculated by the added time.

Thanks for listening. 

The game desperately needs a complete rebalance, and better tutorials. Until it gets both, it will continue bleeding new players. And deservedly so.

[Kalizy]

as time goes on, people tend to have better gear and rush through missions faster, that doesn't affect new players, the main problem i see why newbies leave is the early game problem and the marketplace, they don't have the good stuff to get the platinum to increase their arsenal, thus only having a miserable arsenal of 2 or 5 weapons, another problem is the grindingfest you mentioned but that ain't the main reason why they leave

[(PSN)Snypomaniac]

11 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

Would you mind posting your source?

When something is common sense, the contradicting argument has to prove it otherwise. You have to give us the source of the very unlikely claim, that 300+ hours players would mean the majority. 

[Kalizy]

man, if you claim the game is hard now, try when it was in Beta, you didn't even have status, you had only fire cold and electricity and the way you farmed primes was a nightmare so it's the new players' problem they can't handle how the game's supposed to be

[(PSN)Snypomaniac]

15 minutes ago, Kalizy said:

as time goes on, people tend to have better gear and rush through missions faster, that doesn't affect new players, the main problem i see why newbies leave is the early game problem and the marketplace, they don't have the good stuff to get the platinum to increase their arsenal, thus only having a miserable arsenal of 2 or 5 weapons, another problem is the grindingfest you mentioned but that ain't the main reason why they leave

In my experience, buying platinum at the start is very reasonable, I had never ever paid for such a thing in a game, but was happy to do it here. The first 20-50 hours were very good actually, because you instinctively play like you play other shooters, slowly, killing all the enemies etc. 

Then you realize, that being slow and not cheesing will get you nowhere in the grind. 

And again, such a shame, because the game is very good as a shooter! A balance like in Mass Effect (though faster) would be marvelous!

Edited February 17, 2018 by (PS4)Snypomaniac

[Raniu]

1 minute ago, Kalizy said:

man, if you claim the game is hard now, try when it was in Beta, you didn't even have status, you had only fire cold and electricity and the way you farmed primes was a nightmare so it's the new players' problem they can't handle how the game's supposed to be

The game's still in beta.

And yeah, the game is easy and offers hardly any challenge. No one's saying that 'the game is hard now'. Quite the opposite :P

[(PSN)Snypomaniac]

10 minutes ago, Kalizy said:

man, if you claim the game is hard now, try when it was in Beta, you didn't even have status, you had only fire cold and electricity and the way you farmed primes was a nightmare so it's the new players' problem they can't handle how the game's supposed to be

? I say the opposite, the game is way to easy and cheesable. 

[Dante]

2 minutes ago, Kalizy said:

man, if you claim the game is hard now, try when it was in Beta, you didn't even have status, you had only fire cold and electricity and the way you farmed primes was a nightmare so it's the new players' problem they can't handle how the game's supposed to be

And your warframe only had 4 revives... per day, not per mission.

Good times

[Nez-Kal]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)Snypomaniac said:

When something is common sense, the contradicting argument has to prove it otherwise. You have to give us the source of the very unlikely claim, that 300+ hours players would mean the majority. 

Then finding a Source won't be so hard to find and post if that's the case. Please post it.

[(PSN)Snypomaniac]

9 minutes ago, Tangent-Valley said:

Then finding a Source won't be so hard to find and post if that's the case. Please post it.

No, what I said is that my source was common sense. Questioning it is viable, but only with hard facts. I don't have to post it, you do. 

[Rabbid-]

3 minutes ago, Raniu said:

The game's still in beta.

And yeah, the game is easy and offers hardly any challenge. No one's saying that 'the game is hard now'. Quite the opposite :P

the game is much easier now, then before
is what i think he's saying
 

[Raniu]

That's what we're all saying, isn't it?

[Rawbeard]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)Snypomaniac said:

When something is common sense

you have to at least prove it IS common sense

[(PSN)CrimsonAxure]

It's sad to see newbies leave, because that just leaves us with

1. Mid - High Tier players that are very interested in the game and grinding hard every day

2. Veterans... please stay we can't lose anymore

I see F2P games as planes. 

You're at the airport with your original plane, you don't know if it's going to fly or not, but you have to try to see

Spoiler

You just downloaded a new game, let's test it out and see if we like it

You're on the runway, ready to fly

Spoiler

You're doing the tutorial

Now, 2 things can happen.

A.

You successfully take off

Spoiler

You understand how the game works, and you're interested

B.

You slip off the track, and crash

Spoiler

You either thought "WHAT IS EVEN GOING ON???" or "meh.. boring"

If you crash, it's over

Spoiler

If you aren't interested, then you're done, you've uninstalled the game, and went back to playing whatever you were playing

But if you take off, and think "Hey, I can do this!"

Spoiler

You thought "This is pretty cool... ima do some research" and then the game became your main game. 

Then once you take off and you're in the air, nothing going to stop you. 

Spoiler

Once you are invested in the game, it will become your life. You will never go outside, and spend your weekends in front of the screen, grinding and farming

When you start to lose interest, it can go 2 ways

A.

Time to land

Spoiler

You end on a good note, "This game really did change my life.. sad that I have to leave it now :,)

B. 

yolo (CRASH)

Spoiler

You end on a bad note "this game isn't what it used to be. i give up

 

Edited February 17, 2018 by (PS4)PS_90210

[Nez-Kal]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)Snypomaniac said:

No, what I said is that my source was common sense. Questioning it is viable, but only with hard facts. I don't have to post it, you do. 

You say it's common sense, but cannot prove that it is, or that it is in anyway True. This is a tactic used by politicians all the time: "I don't have to explain why X is this way because it's common sense that Y", yet no evidence as such is provided. This same case though of "Common Sense" has been turned on it's head multiple times once actual evidence has been issued forth, with cases such as Age Pyramids and Japan's. So, no. You're "Common Sense" does not hold up, and we would kindly ask you to please Prove this "fact" of yours, which is only being held up by a "Just Trust me on This, it's Common Sense, for Sure" argument.

Edited February 17, 2018 by Tangent-Valley

[(PSN)Snypomaniac]

On 2018. 02. 17. at 2:58 PM, Tangent-Valley said:

You say it's common sense, but cannot prove that it is. This is a tactic used by politicians all the time: "I don't have to explain why X is this way because it's common sense that Y", yet no evidence as such is provided. This same case though of "Common Sense" has been turned on it's head multiple times once actual evidence has been issued forth, with cases such as Age Pyramids and Japan's. So, no. You're "Common Sense" does not hold up, and we would kindly ask you to please Prove this "fact" of yours, which is only being held up by a "Just Trust me on This, it's Common Sense, for Sure" argument.

Heh..? 

I edited the completely not essential remark from the OP; in return we should please cut this thread of thought.

Edited February 19, 2018 by (PS4)Snypomaniac

[Gabbynaru]

Some of us play it specifically because it is easy. I always viewed Warframe as Dynasty Warriors but good. If it were difficult, it would fall in the "just another shooter" category, and therefore, out to the garbage dump it went. I don't generally like shooters (unless they are called Sniper Elite), therefore, the idea of Warframe becoming another shooter kinda terrifies me. At the moment, there is stuff I actively avoid because they go for that "must waste your time bullet sponge" attitude shooters have (Sortie Ambulas, all the Eidolons), so, if all the game went like that, then I wouldn't be here to discuss this. This comes from someone with 2873 hours in the game. I love Warframe specifically because I can be an unstoppable God of unlimited destruction. So, if that goes away, I go away.

[Nez-Kal]

Just now, (PS4)Snypomaniac said:

Heh..? 

I delete the completely not essential remark from the OP which so painfully hurts your feelings; in return we should please cut this thread of thought.

" Especially for new or below 300 hours players (and they are likely the huge majority)"

The entire issue is literally fixed with a single word. You don't have to add it or edit the original OP though to appease me or my "hurt feelings" though. It's all up to you, it's your post, and yes, I am pretty much done with any commenting on it.

[Trent22007]

@Tangent-Valley
You can't really get a good source unless your someone at DE, the steam reviews are best for what I can see, http://steamcommunity.com/app/230410/reviews/?browsefilter=mostrecent&snr=1_5_reviews_&p=1 

[(PSN)Snypomaniac]

10 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

Some of us play it specifically because it is easy. I always viewed Warframe as Dynasty Warriors but good. If it were difficult, it would fall in the "just another shooter" category, and therefore, out to the garbage dump it went. I don't generally like shooters (unless they are called Sniper Elite), therefore, the idea of Warframe becoming another shooter kinda terrifies me. At the moment, there is stuff I actively avoid because they go for that "must waste your time bullet sponge" attitude shooters have (Sortie Ambulas, all the Eidolons), so, if all the game went like that, then I wouldn't be here to discuss this. This comes from someone with 2873 hours in the game. I love Warframe specifically because I can be an unstoppable God of unlimited destruction. So, if that goes away, I go away.

Yeah but it's common sense, that you are the minority of players with this sentiment. 

IM JOKIN

[(PSN)Snypomaniac]

16 minutes ago, Tangent-Valley said:

" Especially for new or below 300 hours players (and they are likely the huge majority)"

The entire issue is literally fixed with a single word. You don't have to add it or edit the original OP though to appease me or my "hurt feelings" though. It's all up to you, it's your post, and yes, I am pretty much done with any commenting on it.

I already edited it. The world is saved.

[WhiteMarker]

53 minutes ago, (PS4)Snypomaniac said:

When something is common sense, the contradicting argument has to prove it otherwise. You have to give us the source of the very unlikely claim, that 300+ hours players would mean the majority. 

No. You made something up. You lied. It remains a lie until you post a source.
As long as you don't post a source, your whole post is wrong and should be closed by mods.

[theraot]

hace 39 minutos, (PS4)Snypomaniac dijo:

After 500 hours I can say the single biggest flaw of the gameplay itself, is that mostly it's highly cheesable, and as such not challenging enough to not convert the whole game into a huge grindfest, with some fashionframe on top. 

Not challenging enough, you are saying the game is easy. I honestly do not know why other misunderstood this claim.

hace 40 minutos, (PS4)Snypomaniac dijo:

And mostly I mean the general simple missions. Especially for new or below 300 hours players (and they might be the huge majority, if I'm not mistaken). A lot of people will disagree with all this, but mainly because they are veterans here on the forums.

And you claim it is specially easy at the start. Well, that makes sense. Any respectful difficulty curve starts easy.

Note: If most players are newbies, as you claim. and newbies leaving is a problem, as you claim. You are saying that warframe has a high player rotation.

hace 41 minutos, (PS4)Snypomaniac dijo:

You can basically run through every alert, every planet node without a single breeze of challenge.

Perhaps you are saying that you would prefer a more steep difficulty curve? I would expect that making the game harder would turn down new players even more.

hace 42 minutos, (PS4)Snypomaniac dijo:

Except when you solo it, which is more tedious than challenging.

I cannot talk to this point. I went over the majority of the start map before they changed it, when there were still void keys, and other stuff... I would have to start over and see.

Yet, I see your point. However, to break the tedious the game needs variety instead of challenge. As I said, If you just give challenge then players leave the game because it is too hard.

hace 44 minutos, (PS4)Snypomaniac dijo:

Until you get Limbo... Basic missions are a joke. They are running-flying-AOEing simulators.

Darn you Limbo! It have been reworked, and there are still problems with it. Anyway, if you hate that it is easy, don't use it.

hace 45 minutos, (PS4)Snypomaniac dijo:

With four squadmates threat and challenge is simply nonexistent. The only challenge in warframe is how fast you can cheese yourself through missions. 

I wonder if this is because you are being paired with players with better gear than you. Is that the case?

Separating high ranking players from low ranking ones is a double edge sword. As high ranking players might clean low level maps too easy and too fast, leaving low ranking squad mates with little to do... yet, splitting the community is never good. It causes some to not be aware of the problems of others, also allowing veterans to interact with beginners allows the beginners to learn about what they can get later on the game... and, yeah, warframe never had intrusive tutorials, so many new players do not get to learn how to do stuff (a lot of it is in the codex or off site in the wiki).

hace 50 minutos, (PS4)Snypomaniac dijo:

As a new player I wanted to make a clan dedicated to 2-3-player only runs, because with 4 players it's just cheese. But such a clan is not viable. And again, soloing is too tedious, you will cheese that as well. As a max 200 hours player it's very hard not to feel empty and leave to use your time better.

Yep, not viable. That is not the solution.

hace 50 minutos, (PS4)Snypomaniac dijo:

"Why new players leave Warframe..." - because they soon realize that it's a long long grindfest, with the really challenging things hidden behind hundreds of hours of these simple missions, hundreds of hours of cheese. And when they get to these end-game activities, like Sorties, Raids or Eidolons, they will be able to cheese most of these as well...

Hmm... So, you say the game is too easy, but it takes too long to get to the end-game.

Let us consider the opposite. If in the game it was faster to get to the eng-game, people would complete it fast and then leave with nothing to do. Then they leave the game out of boredom. What if the game was fast, but also more challenging? Well, then new gamer get frustrated because it is too hard.

Sure, there most be some balance. It cannot be to hard to make people leave in frustration, it cannot be too fast to make people leave out of boredom.

Note: If people complete the game to fast, then DE do not have enough time to create more content. To some extend that already happens.

Part of the core idea of the game is that it has random maps, so you do not run out of content. However, despite being random, they are very repetitive. They do not deviate much from the standard formula. DE has been trying to use events to break the monotony, however that is not sustainable. I like that they took the suggestion to make invasions progress feed into automated events... however, those events are too bland. I think the upcoming "kingping" system will be a better attempt to fix this problem.
 

hace 55 minutos, (PS4)Snypomaniac dijo:

Why is it such a shame? Because the combat system is amazing, but the combat itself is not challenging thus engaging, like in Mass Effect or dare I say Destiny. Warframe's combat system is waaay better, but the simple fact, that Destiny is not that cheesable (because of the sh#t speed), makes it a better game regarding combat! That is so painful! Like being Achilles in a nuclear war or something. 

"The combat system is not challenging therefore it is not engaging". Well, difficulty should not come from worse controls.

I understand that you need challenge to be engaged, but the solution should not be a worse system.

By the way, that is a personality trait. Some people find a game engaging because of the social aspect, other because of the exploration, etc. If you study game design you will learn about this. Not every game is for everybody, and not everybody needs challenge for engagement. Please, do not generalize.

 

hace 58 minutos, (PS4)Snypomaniac dijo:

I'm a grind-addict, so I will keep play Warframe, but only until Anthem, I think. And this is the main decisive reason why. 

As you wish.

hace 58 minutos, (PS4)Snypomaniac dijo:

Solutions? I don't know. For example closing an area down until the enemies are cleared, would make the game feel more engaging. Veterans will laugh about this, but in my first one-two hundred hours I always wanted this, and not just run though the whole map to get the reward. Gameplay has to be the most rewarding. - This would require way better rewards at the end of it of course, calculated by the added time.

Good, let us move to the realm of productive feedback.

"For example closing an area down until the enemies are cleared, would make the game feel more engaging". It cannot be every room. We have two options: It happens at random, or it happen in selected tiles. I suspect that at random it would feel unfair, and we already have something like that with alerts and lockdowns (which is a subsystem that could see some improvement). In fact, you would find that there are certain tiles where a lockdown is common. Perhaps we could have more of that. Yet, as you see, this is something we kind of have... I do not think this is the solution.

From the post overall, I think a mechanism to pick a higher difficulty for better rewards would be useful. However, if you just have a difficulty selector (even if only per tile) makes it harder to pair players. Perhaps something like the dragon keys (which give you a negative condition when equipped) but applied to the whole game instead of just to Orokin Derrelic Vaults could work. That way, if you are finding the game too easy, you can equip one of those, and have an extra reward for doing so. Getting the extra rewards would - of course - means that you will be able to use them to complete content faster and get to the end-game.