So sick of trading chat, why can't we get an auction house?

[PatternistSlave]

6 minutes ago, Kaminariss said:

a wage if you accept the fact that time = money

Here's your problem right here.  When we're talking about time as it relates to money it's in the context of players within a game environment, not in general.  This isn't a job we're talking about, nor should it be.  Players making money from a game means the system is fundamentally broken.

[Volinus7]

31 minutes ago, Kaminariss said:

magically

That's one of functions of the current Warframe trade chat, it obscures supply/demand and makes them look magical lol. 

 

[Kaminariss]

15 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

there's a limited number of sellers as there's an actual cost of parts or labor, ect, which prevents a race to the bottom. Otherwise, cars would be 10 cents each.

Considering labor, old cars (not vintage ones) are dirt cheap. You can buy 15-20 year old card for basically NOTHING compared to production cost.

 

16 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

That doesn't happen in online games.

Yes it does, all items that becomes obsolete starts loosing their value.

 

20 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Also, I'm comparing Warframe to other online games I've played. Prior to Market, it was pretty good. In general, the only ways to make time have value is to make the time spent either so unpleasant no one wants to bother with it, or to make the act of trading awkward.

As a developers of this game they have every possible way to make AH:

• Skyrocket prices
• Pummel down the prices
• Keep them at their current level
• Control them whatever they see fit.

[Teoarrk]

42 minutes ago, Kaminariss said:

Considering labor, old cars (not vintage ones) are dirt cheap. You can buy 15-20 year old card for basically NOTHING compared to production cost.

 

Yes it does, all items that becomes obsolete starts loosing their value.

 

As a developers of this game they have every possible way to make AH:

• Skyrocket prices
• Pummel down the prices
• Keep them at their current level
• Control them whatever they see fit.

Thats great. Make it ducats or credits only and we have a deal.

[NezuHimeSama]

Product replacement is an entirely different thing. I'm talking new cars. Once it's been sold for full price when it's new, or when a replacement product comes out, the comparison doesn't apply anymore, as it's disadvantageous to have it around.

Also lol quoting out of context. Great.

 

You can say it will or won't do a thing, but it already happened and we can see the results with the third party market. It wasn't good.

[Kaminariss]

16 minutes ago, Teoarrk said:

Thats great. Make it ducats or credits only and we have a deal.

Ducats would also work, credits would not as they are generally worthless.

3 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

You can say it will or won't do a thing, but it already happened and we can see the results with the third party market. It wasn't good.

It was good. Made prices reach equilibrium.

[Teoarrk]

5 minutes ago, Kaminariss said:

Ducats would also work, credits would not as they are generally worthless.

The reason for bringing credits into this is that so many posters these days say "I have x million credits that I have nothing to do with." So maybe a mixed buying price with ducats and credits or credits only would give some of these people something to do with them.

Edited March 12, 2018 by Teoarrk

[NezuHimeSama]

Credits are worthless because they don't have a use. If players could trade credits for something useful, they'd become highly sought after.

I wonder if you've ever actually thought about game economy in depth before?

[Teoarrk]

5 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Credits are worthless because they don't have a use. If players could trade credits for something useful, they'd become highly sought after.

I wonder if you've ever actually thought about game economy in depth before?

Credits are highly sought after already, until the late game. I dare not look at how many millions I've gone through before, but considering that it's more than likely that this system will benefit veterans more than new players already, it will at least give veterans an incentive to farm credits again. There are only so many Pedestal Primes you can buy before you run out of ship decoration space.

Edited March 12, 2018 by Teoarrk
Needs more clarity.

[Serdinor_Darkrose]

2 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

And it it will be like this even without AH. Everything is going down because items gets old. Whole "economy" hangs on new players and new items. There is no permanent platinum sink, you can buy everything that this game has to offer you need like 4K plat (excluding cosmetics) and this value is getting lower each month. And that is the proper argument against AH - too low amount of items to buy.

 

Nothing stops you from doing that on trade chat. And as you said, nothing stops you from doing that on warframe.market already. You don't even need to be a part of clan to do such thing. You can simply observe prices before vaulting and start buying out cheap sets, wait for them to become expensive and start selling.

 

Tax, limit of concurrent items and maybe a postage fee (which gets returned upon auction ending) are a way to stop people from selling everything at once. And what you said is actually an argument pro AH. It opens up a market for everyone.

1) Is it wihout AH, it will be worse WITH an AH. Everything goes down not because items get old or because new players don't buy stuff (if anything as some items get older their prices skyrocket, it completely depends and you can't just make this a universal rule). Everything goes down because people in WM can undercut prices as they see fit, dragging down the prices for everyone else. When a player gets forwarded to WM and sees the lowest prices they get the idea this is the "correct" price. It might be according to the sellers ideas, but most of them are undercutted prices. No permanent platinum sink is bs and only applies to very old veterans. You can always buy more formas, reactors, catalysts etc, they always release new cosmetics. Saying "excluding cosmetics" is also way too convenient when they are the biggest part of platinum sinks.

2) No, you can't do that on trade chat. If you cannot just spam your prices. If multiple people start selling/buying X item at the same time in the same low prices out of nowhere it will seem fishy. If you want to pull off a false sale/buy on low price you also can't, you'll get PMed immediately. In an AH none bats an eye if they wake up in the morning and see the low prices, you can just think the demand dropped or people are desperate to sell (nothing new) BECAUSE you can filter through prices. Doesn't matter if the others sell X item at 200 when the lowest price is x15 people for 50. In an AH you can even make this happen artificially with only 2/10 people actually be online and the rest offline. In trade chat you can't. It's very hard to pull stunts like this in the current trade chat. And just because you can in WM that doesn't mean we need the same thing in-game as an official feature.

3) We already have a limit on items on the current system and for a good reason, putting this on an AH is horrendous tbh. If you wanna sell multiple things at once that won't stop you in the AH, you can easily get other people who aren't interested in setting up shop to put up the items for you. It's way more difficult to do this now since you MUST be there to sell and time is precious for people. What I said is that I consider a good thing that we have those limitations in the current system. The market IS open for everyone atm, there's not a single thing that prevents you from buying or selling as you see fit, besides time and effort-which is a thing that also matters when handling an item.

Because WM exists it doesn't mean we should implement it. DE can cut off WM whenever they like. If they add an AH they won't remove it easily without a ton of backlash and after the economy will be ruined already. The more one goes through the posts the more obvious it is there are seriously no good arguments to why an AH should replace the current system. Besides "I want both my spare time and my free platinum" and "I want an easier way to affect the prices". It's a blessing a lot of players don't bother or are aware of WM and the economy still holds on.

[Teoarrk]

16 minutes ago, Serdinor_Darkrose said:

1) Is it wihout AH, it will be worse WITH an AH. Everything goes down not because items get old or because new players don't buy stuff (if anything as some items get older their prices skyrocket, it completely depends and you can't just make this a universal rule). Everything goes down because people in WM can undercut prices as they see fit, dragging down the prices for everyone else. When a player gets forwarded to WM and sees the lowest prices they get the idea this is the "correct" price. It might be according to the sellers ideas, but most of them are undercutted prices. No permanent platinum sink is bs and only applies to very old veterans. You can always buy more formas, reactors, catalysts etc, they always release new cosmetics. Saying "excluding cosmetics" is also way too convenient when they are the biggest part of platinum sinks.

2) No, you can't do that on trade chat. If you cannot just spam your prices. If multiple people start selling/buying X item at the same time in the same low prices out of nowhere it will seem fishy. If you want to pull off a false sale/buy on low price you also can't, you'll get PMed immediately. In an AH none bats an eye if they wake up in the morning and see the low prices, you can just think the demand dropped or people are desperate to sell (nothing new) BECAUSE you can filter through prices. Doesn't matter if the others sell X item at 200 when the lowest price is x15 people for 50. In an AH you can even make this happen artificially with only 2/10 people actually be online and the rest offline. In trade chat you can't. It's very hard to pull stunts like this in the current trade chat. And just because you can in WM that doesn't mean we need the same thing in-game as an official feature.

3) We already have a limit on items on the current system and for a good reason, putting this on an AH is horrendous tbh. If you wanna sell multiple things at once that won't stop you in the AH, you can easily get other people who aren't interested in setting up shop to put up the items for you. It's way more difficult to do this now since you MUST be there to sell and time is precious for people. What I said is that I consider a good thing that we have those limitations in the current system. The market IS open for everyone atm, there's not a single thing that prevents you from buying or selling as you see fit, besides time and effort-which is a thing that also matters when handling an item.

Because WM exists it doesn't mean we should implement it. DE can cut off WM whenever they like. If they add an AH they won't remove it easily without a ton of backlash and after the economy will be ruined already. The more one goes through the posts the more obvious it is there are seriously no good arguments to why an AH should replace the current system. Besides "I want both my spare time and my free platinum" and "I want an easier way to affect the prices". It's a blessing a lot of players don't bother or are aware of WM and the economy still holds on.

I'm personally against the idea. The only reason I am reiterating that platinum should be off the table for an automated system is because it further complicates the riven market in particular and I'm only entertaining the idea because it's been active for a long while on the forums.

Edited March 12, 2018 by Teoarrk

[Kaminariss]

2 hours ago, Serdinor_Darkrose said:

Everything goes down because people in WM can undercut prices as they see fit, dragging down the prices for everyone else.

Make minimum price, problem solved, you just assumed bad implementation of AH. See TERA Online. As I already said, developers have absolutely every means to make prices as they fit.

2 hours ago, Serdinor_Darkrose said:

AH you can even make this happen artificially with only 2/10 people actually be online and the rest offline. In trade chat you can't. It's very hard to pull stunts like this in the current trade chat

If you put item in AH too low it will dissapear in seconds. I've already explained it earlier, you cannot pull stunts like this on AH because that would mean you need to provide a steady item supply at lowered price. Selling just few sets won't make prices lower for longer period of time. While on trade chat its child's play. You can simply ignore PMs. On AH you cannot ignore buyers. Been there, done that, works on trade chat, works on warframe.market. Also AH can have minimal price while trade chat cannot have this kind of restriction.

2 hours ago, Serdinor_Darkrose said:

We already have a limit on items on the current system and for a good reason, putting this on an AH is horrendous tbh.

You got this the other way around. We are currently in the very bottom of "economy" AKA stone age because there are no restrictions besides trades per day. 

 

2 hours ago, Serdinor_Darkrose said:

The more one goes through the posts the more obvious it is there are seriously no good arguments to why an AH should replace the current system.

Because people do not know how economy works. AH can fix absolutely every problem with current stone age economy:

• Min - Max price -> regulate prices, if done correctly this may be a smart floating system
• Limit of concurrent items -> limits supply
• Trade tax -> further regulate prices
• Open up market for more people
• People will actually start playing game instead of spamming WTS [Some Riven] whole day
• No problems with trading with people on different time zones

[NezuHimeSama]

Setting minimum and maximum prices is dumb. It stifles competition, as if the item is underfarmed, it's always the maximum price, and if it's overfarmed, it's always the minimum price. It doesn't allow the value of the item to be represented properly. Plus, we've seen how good DE is at predicting price trends or value of mods or items, and micromanaging that is just going to create frustration in the community, detract from development resources that are better spent elsewhere, or more likely, both.

An auction house is a waste of time and money on a game primarily focused on content over economics, and we've already seen the harm it can and will do to the economy first hand from a third party service. In fact, every time this kind of service reaches a large audience with items that don't have any true inherent value to them, and can be acquired without painful more-of-a-job-than-your-job grinding, the economy has always been #*!%ed up the ass or micromanaged into oblivion. There is no middle ground.

[Kaminariss]

17 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

It doesn't allow the value of the item to be represented properly

Yes it does, properly written floating (dynamic) range min-max restriction makes sure fluctuations are smooth.

 

20 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

detract from development resources that are better spent elsewhere, or more likely, both.

Well this is something we can agree on, if you check my previous posts I am neutral (neither pro nor against AH) because of that. I just don't accept baseless evidenceless  assumptions about economy.

 

21 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

An auction house is a waste of time and money on a game primarily focused on content over economics, and we've already seen the harm it can and will do to the economy first hand from a third party service

Harm? No, that is your assumption. Prices going down is not always a bad sign as you assume. That is the work of supply and demand curve.

 

23 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

In fact, every time this kind of service reaches a large audience with items that don't have any true inherent value to them, and can be acquired without painful more-of-a-job-than-your-job grinding, the economy has always been #*!%ed up the ass or micromanaged into oblivion. There is no middle ground.

That is again, just your assumption. My point of view is that prices were finally regulated properly by supply and demand curve and they are now where they should be. No more overpriced crap sold to new players.

It is only bad for scammers that wants to sell easy-to-get items for horrendous prices.

[Heckzu]

7 minutes ago, Kaminariss said:

Harm? No, that is your assumption. Prices going down is not always a bad sign as you assume. That is the work of supply and demand curve.

For Warframe, which uses paid currency as the trading currency, it is a bad sign. 

Regardless of how the player economy changes, prices in the in-game shop are fixed.

If prices go down, then it becomes relatively harder to afford items from the shop. This includes staple items such as reactors, catalysts, and slots. If prices drop to rock bottom, then it becomes an impossibility for a free to play player to afford things like deluxe skins or armor sets.

The game is successful because players can get almost anything they want without needing to spend real money. If you take this aspect away, then the future of the game itself is jeopardized. 

[Kaminariss]

4 minutes ago, Heckzu said:

If prices go down, then it becomes relatively harder to afford items from the shop. This includes staple items such as reactors, catalysts, and slots. If prices drop to rock bottom, then it becomes an impossibility for a free to play player to afford things like deluxe skins or armor sets.

How did you miss this:

1 hour ago, Kaminariss said:

developers have absolutely every means to make prices as they fit.

Including prices in AH. They want prices to go down? Make it easier to obtain relics/increase drop rates of white/golden items. Lower tax on sales, increase limit of concurrent items in AH.

They want prices to go up? Make bigger trade tax, raise minimum price on AH, make it harder to obtain relics.

Basically with or without AH they CAN regulate prices where they want and how they want.

[NezuHimeSama]

It's not an assumption when it can presently be observed in a limited test scenario via a third party service.

[Kaminariss]

It is assumption as you are assuming the form and restrictions of AH. You cannot say without having auction house model. Proper implementation of AH can only cure this archaic economy.

[NezuHimeSama]

I really can't see it doing anything but making things worse, no matter how horribly overmicromanaged it gets.

[Haizom]

I didn't know the existence of this thread, so I posted this: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/932291-ingame-auction-house/?tab=comments#comment-9577733

How would a Auction House would be so different from Warframe.Market or all other stuff? Ppl just want to sell things faster on Warframe.Market so prices will go down a lot more faster because there are no taxes. On an Auction House, where would have a tax, be it Credit or Platinum, would prevent players from lowering their prices and bids would be a thing, so prices would be much realistic to the needs of the players and actual value of the item itself.

 

[Volinus7]

1 hour ago, Kaminariss said:

They want prices to go up? Make bigger trade tax, raise minimum price on AH, make it harder to obtain relics.

Some people are allergic to those things lol. 

[Borg1611]

19 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

The trading system of WoW was responsible for turning a subscription game into a pay2win game

This is not remotely accurate. I say that as someone who has played WoW off and on for over a decade and has at times made little to no gold in wow when I didn't care about that and currently has millions of gold and a capped b.net balance I didn't put any RL money into (or use any kind of unethical or exploitative behavior to accomplish).

Trading in WoW is one of the most effective and efficient as well as fair free to play portals for any game I've ever played. Their F2P system is better than in most actual F2P games. It may be a subscription based game, but the WoW tokens have effectively turned it into a free to play game for those that want it. Their system creates a brilliant synergy between players who pay and players who play for free. This game would be much better off if it had something similar. 

Instead of creating that player driven economy and synergy, Warframe focuses on pay to win strategies instead like boosts and just directly selling people items and resources in the market or at vendors in cetus. Instead of going to the trouble of creating interesting crafting systems and markets for players to participate in, they just throw in random disjointed grinds that are sometimes painfully slow unless you pay to speed them up. That may be an easier route for the developers, but it's distasteful for players and leads to a situation where you have to either grind everything yourself, pay DE to skip the grind or participate in a poorly designed trade system. 

WoW is also not pay to win. At all. The best gear in the game all comes from actually playing the game. Crafted gear really isn't going to get you far at all. It mostly is only useful for entry level stuff. You can not pay to skip much besides maybe some starter gear or raid consumables or cosmetics (both player created ones as well as ones they sell in their shop). You can pay to skip the leveling process now, but that wasn't especially meaningful since vanilla anyway. Warframe is by far more pay to win than WoW has ever been or likely ever will ever be. If they had a decent in-game trade system, particularly for Rivens, it would actually make it less pay to win since you'd be able to acquire things by playing, sell them for plat and then buy a riven you really wanted with 0 real life dollars (or anything else you can buy for plat). You can potentially do that now, but it's via an outdated poorly accessible trade system that many don't want to participate in. Many more would participate in trade if we had a modern in-game trade system. 

__________________________________

The people arguing that an in-game trade system would result in a race to the bottom or everything being worth 1p are simply out of touch with reality. Yea, common mods wouldn't be worth much. They already aren't. Grinding random mod drops isn't usually what keeps anyone around long-term anyway. Prime sets would probably lose value. As someone who has every prime frame besides excal and mirage, I'd argue that prime farming isn't really keeping me around either. I used to come back to get every new thing, now I just don't really care unless it happens to be something I think I'd actually use. People who already have every mod and frame (or every one they actually care about) still keep playing for some reason, so it seems like acquiring those things faster would't kill the game and in fact might keep some players around longer who aren't interested in grinding those things. 

You also have to realize that if there are numerous markets to participate in, players aren't all going to focus on one. If you find grinding tradeable thing X unfun, you can go do Y to get something else to trade for X.  Not every player is going to farm prime sets to sell. Especially not if there are harder higher value things for players to chase or if they find that activity to be lacking in fun. Some players would grind kuva to try to get lucky and sell an expensive godlike riven they roll. Some would sell unrolled rivens. Some would sell arcanes. Some would farm fissures. Some would still not trade because they just don't want to. If PoE mats were tradable, you could have some people fishing and mining for plat since a lot of other people hate doing those things (this is actually edging closer to MMO territory where many people don't participate in professions and go to the AH for consumables and other crafted items instead). DE could also add more things or markets to get involved with (IE: expanding on the zaw system so people could sell interesting customized weapons or something), particularly if they saw how much players got involved in trade once it was more accessible. Right now a lot of things are all sort of compartmentalized and just separate grinds they added over time. If trade were more accessible and participated in by a larger number of players, maybe we'd see more cohesion and synergy between potential markets the way you see in an MMO or a game with a meaningful trade system. 

Even with no other changes, rivens would easily maintain a meaningful value due to their time gating + extreme multi layered RNG. We need a riven market at the very least. It would not kill the game and would actually greatly benefit DE and the players as many more would participate in a system they currently ignore. After seeing the success of an in-game riven market we could expand and create more markets that would thrive with accessible trade that players could participate in.

TLDR: WoW's trade system is awesome and WoW tokens are the most brilliant F2P system in any game I've ever played. WoW is not pay to win. Warframe would be better off with at least a riven market and would thrive with a more wide-scale in-game trade system as well. 

[BL4CKN0ISE]

I really wish threads like this were titled something like "So sick of Warframe.market, why can't we get an auction house?". Then we could have a serious discussion. When I see people complain about trading chat, the first thing I think is "Why aren't you using Warframe.market?". 

Are there some people who are just anti-warframe.market or something? 

Edited March 13, 2018 by BL4CKN0ISE

[Borg1611]

8 minutes ago, BL4CKN0ISE said:

Are there some people who are just anti-warframe.market or something? 

I've reluctantly used warframe.market to get a few things early on (a couple augments for the opposing reps I don't have that I really wanted to try and a synoid simulor before that was nerfed). 

The main issue is having to go through the process of contacting people and then going to trade with them face to face at all that's the issue. It's also being limited to the supply of people who happen to be online at the same time you are and are using the same system you're using (third party site or trade chat channel they happen to also be in). It's inconvenient and unnecessary. It also isn't meaningful as a form of social interaction as some people have tried to argue in various trade arguments in various games I've played (including this one and path of exile). 

It's just an outdated system that just shouldn't be our only or best option. There should be an in-game market where people can post an item for a buyout and you can buy it without contacting them and then meeting them while they're online. It's 2018 and some games are still using a system no more sophisticated than Diablo 2, which came out almost two decades ago. We've seen many incarnations of trade in many games and still we get developers who simply do the bare minimum and leave it that way, then use various empty rhetoric to justify it when the reality is probably just that they don't want to go to the trouble of developing a more modern system.

[PatternistSlave]

12 hours ago, Borg1611 said:

Their F2P system

This is a subscription game we're talking about here.  That went from having no pay2win mechanic at all to having one because of botters and gold sellers abusing the auction house.  I realize the game was popular enough and Blizzard had the impetus and resources to make the best they could of a bad situation, but that doesn't make the game any less irreparably damaged.

12 hours ago, Borg1611 said:

better than in most actual F2P games.

Well it certainly should be since the game isn't f2p.