Slide Attack/Maiming Strike/Whip and Polearm range -- an absurd mixture of overpoweredness

[Timbazorg]

I user the spin to win when sht is about to hit the and I actually find it fun.  What’s not fun for me may be fun for others so I don’t see any issues with this weapon.  Is like using an Amprex or an Atomos.  I think that if you don’t like how someone is playing and it’s ruining your gaming experience than you should leave the session and join another you feel more comfortable in.  Me for example, the moment I see an afk I just leave the session and join another because I find that to be the lowest of the low.  The way I see it I rather have someone doing spin to win than being afk getting free exp.

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

2 minutes ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

 

The problem is how unbalanced this Spin-2-win crap is. It forces teammates to just sit down and watch because they have nothing to do since one guy spamming spin attacks is killing everything in sight before they can even aim. 

It might be fun for you, but it's not for the rest of the squad. Just because you have fun using it doesn't mean it's ok to have such a broken combo in the game. You personal fun is worth just as much as my personal fun, but I'm talking about collectivity. Teammates. 3 out of 4 players. 

And as I said before in the first few pages, balance is an eternal goal. Yes, it cannot be perfect, but it doesn't mean that it's useless to improve the game. 

Look at the Amprex. It was buffed and nerfed at the same time, but the result was an overall buff. The nerf was necessary to balance the buffs, otherwise it would have been broken. 

Or the Teralyst, which was lvl 20 and got boosted to lvl 50. De nerfed it's damage potential and hp so it would stay close to it's original difficulty level. The goal of this was to give more xp for killing it.

Nerfs are just as important than buffs. Deal with it.

There are tons of abilities and combo's that force team mates to sit down and watch. I can't even start to count the amount of times nobody used maiming strike or condition overload and I could barely get kills in. I also can't even begin to count the times that I used the combo and didn't get the most kills. Not that I encounter much people even using the combo in the first place. I also know a whole lot of people who are incredibly happy when somebody nukes the entire map and speeds up leveling or enables the team to continue their relic run. You do not talks for the collective. You do not get to assume that your own experiences count for the majority of people. 

Here is the thing...while you go on about how your experience and fun is just as valuable as mine...you are the one trying to limit other people's experiences permanently while having alternative options. In other words...I am not here to argue your fun should be taken away...yet here you are arguing that my fun should be taken away. 

If I do not want to encounter an Equinox who wipes out a map before I can even enter the tile...or a Limbo who literally prevents me from doing any form of damage at all...or a Frost who puts their globes everywhere...players who run to the exit as quickly as possible...afk-ers....people who ignore the mission to go find resources...or anything that could possibly annoy or upset me...then I either play solo or play with a group of like-minded people. 

The fact is you have plenty of options available to you. YET you choose to argue for other people's fun to be taken away just so you do not have to inconvenience yourself with using any of the means available to you to completely avoid the issue in the first place. 

Hence why I am saying: this entire "there is a problem" ultimately and invariably boils down to "I don't like a thing and I want it gone". 


Now...I never said balance was an issue in itself...or that nerfs are always bad. I am saying that your ideas of balance and how that balance should be reached are subjectively motivated by your own likes, dislikes and preferences of how a game should be played and a wish to enact those subjective feelings on others. As such player driven nerfs are always and invariably undesirable, toxic and more often than not ruin games (with both the Division and Destiny 2 as perfect examples) because a vocal minority push devs to solve problems that were not really there....OR...are aspects of far bigger and more fundamental problems which are left undiscussed because of the narrow minded focus on one single cog in the wheel. 

So there is that. 

 

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

24 minutes ago, rune_me said:

You’d be wrong, though. We can all agree that you are the one whining: “oh no how dare they say mean things about maiming strike wah wah wah!” 

The issue has been explained, the entirely objective problem has been illustrated many times over. Just because you (as one of maybe 2 or 3 people) don’t understand it, doesn’t mean it hasn’t been done.

If someone lacks the basic intelligence to understand that 2+2=4 then its pointless for me to keep telling it.

I don't care if you say mean things about maiming strike...I care when you lack the capacity to argue the actual problem with any coherency or factual arguments not rooted in selfish and above all entirely subjective sentiments which do not boil down to trying to enforce an arrogant view of proper game play and proper balance as superior.

Now...if only you would manage to pull any of that off...we wouldn't have to listen to you trying to pretend that you actually made sense and everybody who disagrees with you is an idiot.  So keep trying. 

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

38 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Just gonna quote myself from another thread:

 

 

To me, the problem with Maiming Strike isn't really its power. No, the problem is that it promotes repeating the exact same melee strike over and over again. It promotes anti-variety.

To those of you who are newer to this game; If you didn't know, this is one of the main reasons DE rehauled Melee into their current "Melee 2.0", to move away from just spamming charge-attacks over and over. We had mods dedicated to chargeattacks in the past. Now we have mods dedicated to slideattacks. Same issue, just a different attack.

It's one thing to make a mistake. Everyone makes mistakes. But learn from your mistakes, don't repeat the same issue in different forms (see also, as a similar example; No longer tieing power to cosmetics, yet the Arcanes introduced afterwards repeated that issue again for the longest time).

 

The issue here is that melee in it's current form is mindlessly spamming the O-button regardless of these mod's. Just like firing a gun is simply the same. Repetitive moves are invariably a staple of limited control options and capabilities while catering to the wildly varying capabilities of a wider audience. 

You can create all the combo's in the world in the most expansive list ever seen....but most people will still use the one that is the easiest to use...does the most damage...and kills the quickest. 

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, (PS4)BOSS_TPH76 said:

You can create all the combo's in the world in the most expansive list ever seen....but most people will still use the one that is the easiest to use...does the most damage...and kills the quickest. 
 

Unless each combo move has its own use and purpose, like for example extreme single target damage, wide area damage, ranged sword beam etc that you see in some of those hack and slash/dynasty warrior type games.

But that would probably take too many buttons or effort for DE to program.

[rune_me]

36 minutes ago, (PS4)BOSS_TPH76 said:

I don't care if you say mean things about maiming strike...I care when you lack the capacity to argue the actual problem with any coherency or factual arguments not rooted in selfish and above all entirely subjective sentiments which do not boil down to trying to enforce an arrogant view of proper game play and proper balance as superior.

Now...if only you would manage to pull any of that off...we wouldn't have to listen to you trying to pretend that you actually made sense and everybody who disagrees with you is an idiot.  So keep trying. 

What do you mean you wouldn’t have to listdn to me? You already don’t have to listen to me. You choose, of your own free will, to listen to me.

And I think you missed the point where I told you, I don’t care whether you agree with me or not. I am not here to convince you that Maiming Strike should be nerfed. That would accomplish nothing.

You are the one who clearly cares deeply about my opinions on MS (gotta have something to whine about, I guess). Me, I only care what DE thinks about the mod. Or any mod. Everyone elses opinion (including mine) is irellevant.

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

53 minutes ago, rune_me said:

What do you mean you wouldn’t have to listdn to me? You already don’t have to listen to me. You choose, of your own free will, to listen to me.

And I think you missed the point where I told you, I don’t care whether you agree with me or not. I am not here to convince you that Maiming Strike should be nerfed. That would accomplish nothing.

You are the one who clearly cares deeply about my opinions on MS (gotta have something to whine about, I guess). Me, I only care what DE thinks about the mod. Or any mod. Everyone elses opinion (including mine) is irellevant.

You should re-read that sentence I wrote. You will find you left a whole lot of words out of the equation that entirely change the meaning of the sentence. A perfect example of the selective decontextualization I mentioned earlier.  

I like how normal conversation etiquette of listening to somebody who engages you suddenly translates into me caring deeply about your opinions instead of...you know...having an actual conversation. This is doubly ironic given the fact I really only entered that conversation with you after you showed you cared very much how I perceived your ideas and opinions by replying to a post directed at somebody else making the nature of your opinion the direct central argument against something I said.  Makes sense. Good job.

Now of course you also missed another point. Of course you are not here to convince me of your argument...you are here to lend your voice to a side arguing for a change trying to affect DE's balance decisions and perceptions based on one sided and narrow minded arguments ultimately rooted into egocentric notions of how the game should be played. This last part is the whole point. Now...if only you would get that.

 

Edited March 27, 2018 by (PS4)BOSS_TPH76

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

1 hour ago, Datam4ss said:

Unless each combo move has its own use and purpose, like for example extreme single target damage, wide area damage, ranged sword beam etc that you see in some of those hack and slash/dynasty warrior type games.

But that would probably take too many buttons or effort for DE to program.

This is true. Which I why I previously said that the issue is far more fundamental than this mod combination. The issue is that this, probably, is both to complex to program as well as rather futile in the context of how the enemies are balanced and operate. 

We are dealing with a wave game and the enemy AI is not build on strategic approaches...just an attempt to become overwhelming in HP, Armor or damage output. Nor is the economy build on that type of game play. The fact that we need to farm enormous amounts of resources and have low level missions that interrupt our game play with resources we can only get at time intervals makes efficiency and spending as little time as possible doing the necessary instead of the "fun" a priority for a lot of players. 

Right now...even if we would have such a system these factors would still be less important than simply dealing huge amount of damage. 

So in the end...more comprehensive changes are absolutely necessary for a combo system to function properly and for certain play styles to become less rewarding or tempting. 

A start would be, for example, to interject the tiles in the current maps and waves with boss type tiles or boss waves...where you have to fight a mini boss....where diversity of tactics would actually make sense.  

[rune_me]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)BOSS_TPH76 said:

Now of course you also missed another point. Of course you are not here to convince me of your argument...you are here to lend your voice to a side arguing for a change trying to affect DE's balance decisions and perceptions based on one sided and narrow minded arguments ultimately rooted into egocentric notions of how the game should be played. This last part is the whole point. Now...if only you would get that.

 

Funny thing is, if you looked back at this entite thread, you’d see I started being very much against nerfing maiming strike. I use the mod all the time and don’t really want to stop.

But you and all tje other anti-nerf people have changed my mind. You people have done nothing but whine and moan and cry since tje very first post. You have given no reasonable arguments as to why maiming strike should not be nerfed, other than “it hurts muh feelings”. Frankly, I was so emberassed being part of that, that you guys managed to convince me, that nerfing maiming strike is for the better.

[Ouroboros_X]

Another crybaby .. Jesus. If you can't stand someone who is better than you go play solo. Crybabes

Edited March 27, 2018 by Ouroboros_X

[Denpoman]

I think stuff like this has to exist, but needs to be used responsibly.

If I'm farming something I will obviously bring something that makes the farm as short and productive as possible. If you don't like it, then as soon as you enter a mission and see someonw is using Equinox, Ember, Atterax, etc, just leave. You lose a few seconds and don't have to subject yourself to a gameplay style you don't like.

Not to mention that if Maiming strike was nerfed, weapons like the Atterax would need significant buffs, otherwise they wouldnt even be useful for leveling Starmap.

[Ouroboros_X]

On 13/03/2018 at 2:43 AM, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

 

Yes, it's another thread on the Spin-2-win spam, and there will always be more as long as it's not fixed. Why do people disregard the threads explaning the problem yet not the actual problem?

 

PS @DDixon286: Forcing others to play solo just so others can cheese in public isn't going to fix anything.

Then what nerf anything that is better than you  ? People believe that everything that is better than them is OP...well flash news ....it is not like that. Maiming strike is not OP at all sorry to break your bubble...you are either bad or unoptimized or just poor....in all cases you do not contributing to the community and probably not in the game also .

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

34 minutes ago, rune_me said:

Funny thing is, if you looked back at this entite thread, you’d see I started being very much against nerfing maiming strike. I use the mod all the time and don’t really want to stop.

But you and all tje other anti-nerf people have changed my mind. You people have done nothing but whine and moan and cry since tje very first post. You have given no reasonable arguments as to why maiming strike should not be nerfed, other than “it hurts muh feelings”. Frankly, I was so emberassed being part of that, that you guys managed to convince me, that nerfing maiming strike is for the better.

Probably because there have been arguments made displaying that it doesn’t need to be nerfed, DE’s methology for nerfs are severe to the highest degree if you’ve played Warframe since 2013, there are other setups in-game that far exceed the severity of this one mod or combination of mods that don’t warrant the necessity for this one nerf everyone in this thread is vouching for, there are resolutions in avoiding and subjecting yourself away from gameplay abuse, balance is an anomaly concerning a horde game, balance is an anomaly with regards to power fantasy.

I mean, @rune_me, I read all of your posts and they are considerate. I get that. It’s appreciated. You make valid arguments to certain degrees. However, playing the Devil’s Advocate can only go so far imo. Also, as an addendum (not concerning yourself) but the direct denial from the posts that were made with the expressed and proposed in-game resolutions to avoid gameplay abuse that some of the “anti-nerf” posts have made is also a denial of their argumentative capacity. Isn’t that nonsense as well? And to a degree that vehemently and directly neglects the intellectual variance and capacity of that argument that could be a resolution to this discussion?

But hey, as I mentioned in my initial post, I’m tired and done with constantly butting heads revolving this topic. Valid points are made, possible resolutions have been proposed (in-game or argued). I’m just bewildered and concerned about people lacking the understanding of DE’s nerfs and how deep and impacting they can become if they never witnessed Vivergate. We should always be careful and considerate with the nerfbat, whether it be a proposed change or by DE’s hand. It’s not something that should be utilized if the problem or concern can possibly be avoided. 

And as I mentioned with my initial post, this topic is beating a dead horse. The same content has been discussed for well over 16 pages with consistent arguments about nerfing melee, the arguments about the merits for keeping melee the way it is, and the resolutions to avoid gameplay abuse. All of these points have been clashing with one another with no form of backing down or acceptance on the Other’s validity in being a formal human being with their contribution.

If I had to be blunt, this is what I have to say: “Y’all are savage, I’m done.”

Edited March 27, 2018 by (PS4)Lei-Lei_23

[Azamagon]

2 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

Unless each combo move has its own use and purpose, like for example extreme single target damage, wide area damage, ranged sword beam etc that you see in some of those hack and slash/dynasty warrior type games.

But that would probably take too many buttons or effort for DE to program.

Funny thing, there are stances which get REALLY close to doing this right. One that always springs to mind is Decisive Judgment:

Base combo is simple, but nothing special -> As a basic combo should be.
Hold combo is very quick, closes some distances and ragdolls everything it hits -> Mobility + CC niche
Pause combo can open enemies to finishers (and if not, it can headshot decently well) -> Single target focus
Only flawed one is the block combo; Slow overhead strikes with slash procs -> Single target focus, but only for enemies you can't finish, yet are slashproccable. If this combo swapped the overhead strikes into horizontal strikes it'd fit the multitarget niche.

So, all it takes is some effort. Oh, and a bit of thinking :P

If DE just polished combos like this (as well as all other melee manuevers to have a distinct niche), we'd be in for a much more interesting melee experience.

---

All that said, this only solves some issues on OUR end, making each move have a niche and all that. But there is another problem: The game just doesn't cater well to flavourful melee gameplay (but it allows spammy melee stuff ofc, like Maiming Slidespam, or quickmelee / easy-good-combo-with-procs Condition Overload).

And that's partially also an issue with the ENEMIES. But not just the enemies, also systems like Blocking and Channeling. They don't fit in so well.

Where are the enemies who are best fought "mano a mano" in a melee duel? Why are the enemies who would be the most fitting to fight in a duel (namely, the heavies) so non-melee-friendly?

Take the Grineer Bombard/Napalm. These would be the PERFECT enemies that you'd like to get close to, dodging and/or blocking their shots (if blocking was a truly viable practice, that is), now with you up close they can't use their AoE-weapons anymore, taking out their Brokk Hammer or similar slow heavy weapon (instead of having a melee-unfriendly groundslam).
They'd hit hard, but would be slow and well telegraphed, so blocking (which honestly should be 100% damage mitigation, but with some timer ala wallclinging) could be an amazing counter to this, opening the Bombard/Napalm up to a deadly finisher.

Voilá!

An enemy that promotes non-spammy gameplay as they'd wreck you if you get caught by their powerful melee swing, so doing quickmelee spam wouldn't be the greatest option against them. Instead, you use singletarget focused stuff.

But still, this is just fixing a small part of the gameplay issues. Again, all this needs some deeper effort and thinking. The gameplay has to mesh as a whole. But you gotta start SOMEWHERE *shrugs*

[vvhorus]

3 hours ago, rune_me said:

That’s not even remotely true, though. I have tons of fun with maiming strike. And with condition overload. I still think they are OP, and that the game will be better once they get nerfed (which they will, of course).

But that is just your opinion, man!

Can we let this thread die already?

[rune_me]

3 minutes ago, vvhorus said:

But that is just your opinion, man!

Can we let this thread die already?

Yes, I’m okay with letting it die. I mean, there’ll be a new one tomorrow, but still...

[IceColdHawk]

3 hours ago, Azamagon said:

To me, the problem with Maiming Strike isn't really its power. No, the problem is that it promotes repeating the exact same melee strike over and over again. It promotes anti-variety.

Melee doesn't have much viable variety, that is the problem. Maiming allows for some easy but effective use. Spamming E with CO is also viable and dishes out more damage per few targets but doesn't clear as fast as a spinner. Meanwhile combos with a very few exceptions bring you into danger more than they help you.

4 hours ago, Azamagon said:

To those of you who are newer to this game; If you didn't know, this is one of the main reasons DE rehauled Melee into their current "Melee 2.0", to move away from just spamming charge-attacks over and over.

And how did they fix that? By removing charge attacks completely instead of making melee ACTUALLY great! Wow, super idea! /s (Note that it took a while before we got our charge attacks back).

I can see the reason why but melee 2.0 i wouldn't consider a successful rework at the slightest. Combos are just too ineffective and troublesome to pull off. To be honest, i'd be very surprised if melee one day is actually GOOD without feeling too cheap.

1 hour ago, rune_me said:

But you and all tje other anti-nerf people have changed my mind. You people have done nothing but whine and moan and cry since tje very first post. You have given no reasonable arguments as to why maiming strike should not be nerfed, other than “it hurts muh feelings”. Frankly, I was so emberassed being part of that, that you guys managed to convince me, that nerfing maiming strike is for the better.

And the pro-nerf people have done what? Whine, moan and cry because they can't get as many kills. Aka the usual "argument" to anything that can kill fast in low levels. But at the same time, people are not willing to have actual difficult, cooperative and rewarding content. So all it boils down to me is people wanting to do casual missions slowly while keeping up with kills otherwise the mission "isn't worth", no matter the outcome.

Nerf that and people will jump to the next best grinder setup. Then people complain because they don't understand or don't want to accept that people grind in a f2p game. It's something that no one but you can fix since it's either a problem with your attitude or lack of game understanding. A f2p grinding game with no scaling rewards or incentives to go hard means "be quick or waste time". Sounds sad but that's how it is. Not that i really enjoy brainmelting stomping gameplay but even less do i enjoy wasting time for bad rewards and that's why so many people swear on maiming.

And the "Endless" kuva dev workshop just shows that we're about to get useless content that nobody plays since it's a waste of time and still no incentive to go high so yay for speedrunning kuva siphons even more... No wonder people get no kills when long term players get thrown with new ones into the same missions due to lack of viable variety.

[Jim22]

why is this post still going?

[Blade_Wolf_16]

Il y a 2 heures, Ouroboros_X a dit :

Then what nerf anything that is better than you  ? People believe that everything that is better than them is OP...well flash news ....it is not like that. Maiming strike is not OP at all sorry to break your bubble...you are either bad or unoptimized or just poor....in all cases you do not contributing to the community and probably not in the game also .

Ha. Haha. lol?

I don't see how insulting me is a valuable argument.

 

Hmm... I don't remember clearly, but I think somebody else insulted me instead of giving an actual argument on this thread. Maybe around page 4-6, can't remember. If you want a more detailed answer, maybe reading the thread past page 1 could help you, because I won't. I'm not going to waste my time repeating myself.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

32 minutes ago, Jim22 said:

why is this post still going?

Look man, it’s like saying why the ocean and sky are blue. To the layman, they’d say “I dunno m’boy,” but the intellectual would say “it’s because of light refracting and reflecting off of the sky and ocean that creates the color effect.” And then the philosopher or Descartes-fanatic would argue “Why blue...?” and we’ll be in a long discussion about the heavens, earth, is the world round or flat, our perception of things, and everything else.

I don’t know.

[(XBOX)Madinogi]

6 hours ago, rune_me said:

You’d be wrong, though. We can all agree that you are the one whining: “oh no how dare they say mean things about maiming strike wah wah wah!” 

The issue has been explained, the entirely objective problem has been illustrated many times over. Just because you (as one of maybe 2 or 3 people) don’t understand it, doesn’t mean it hasn’t been done.

If someone lacks the basic intelligence to understand that 2+2=4 then its pointless for me to keep telling it.

OMG. You are such a hypocrite Rune. 

you and the others are the ones moaning about a play style. so yes @BOSS_TPH76 is 100% spot on. its no ones problem but yours. its a subjective problem not objective. 

the sooner you people realise this the sooner you can move on with your warframe careers with peace. 

 

also balance in a PvE game? clearly you havnt been gaming for very long or Warframe is your first PvE based game. Balance in a power fantasy game is pointless and unneeded. the whole point of these games is to become borderline broken and powerful. you want to see a example of a game that implements balance in its PvE and it frustrates its players? look no further then Destiny and Destiny 2. no matter how powerful you become you barely doing anymore damage then if you were a lvl 1. 

theres a reason why 90% of the PvE games on the market barely implement balance in their games. because its not needed. infact it goes against their whole idea of being a power fantasy. 

 

if you really have a problem with Spin 2 win players. SHOCKER theres a solution. its called going solo or playing with like minded people. stop trying act like YOUR the only ones who matter here. your not. so stop trying force change on other players when they dont want it. 

its like being told by a guard "hey theirs a war zone just beyond this point. if you dont wanna get shot. stay out" but you decide to go in anyway and when you get shot you complain about how they are having a war over there. its no ones fault but yours knowing full well what could happen. when are people going to take responsibilities for their actions? seriously. 

[rune_me]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Madinogi said:

you and the others are the ones moaning about a play style. so yes @BOSS_TPH76 is 100% spot on. its no ones problem but yours. its a subjective problem not objective. 

I haven’t moaned about anyone’s playstyle, but nice try. I don’t care how you play at all. Yet here you are, crying about my post and me not agreeing with you. Kind of makes you the hypocrite, doesn’t it?

4 minutes ago, (XB1)Madinogi said:

also balance in a PvE game? clearly you havnt been gaming for very long or Warframe is your first PvE based game. Balance in a power fantasy game is pointless and unneeded. the whole point of these games is to become borderline broken and powerful. you want to see a example of a game that implements balance in its PvE and it frustrates its players? look no further then Destiny and Destiny 2. no matter how powerful you become you barely doing anymore damage then if you were a lvl 1. 

This is just your opinion. Your opinion is irellevant. Only DE’s opinion on this subject matter. Look at Ember. Look at Banshee. Look at the current changes to virtually every primary weapon in the game. You may not care about game balance, but it is very clear that DE does, and that they are trying very hard to enforce some idea of balance to the game. If you had played Warframe for more than a couple of weeks, you would of course have known this by now.

8 minutes ago, (XB1)Madinogi said:

if you really have a problem with Spin 2 win players. SHOCKER theres a solution. its called going solo or playing with like minded people. stop trying act like YOUR the only ones who matter here. your not. so stop trying force change on other players when they dont want it. 

There’s another solution. Keep making posts about it. We got Ember nerfed, so that obviously works. We’ll get maiming strike nerfed as well and the game will be better for it. See, I am actually trying to change the game, not just ignore the obvious problems by playing solo. Your “solution” is not a solution at all. Mine is. So I’ll stick to mine, thank you very much.

[Elrond_McBong]

Am 13.3.2018 um 02:29 schrieb sleepychewbacca:

If it's a concern, everytime a thread like this pops up, just block the OP in game. Then the OP doesn't get matched with you

thats not how it works

[Azamagon]

3 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

1) Melee doesn't have much viable variety, that is the problem. Maiming allows for some easy but effective use. Spamming E with CO is also viable and dishes out more damage per few targets but doesn't clear as fast as a spinner. Meanwhile combos with a very few exceptions bring you into danger more than they help you.

2) And how did they fix that? By removing charge attacks completely instead of making melee ACTUALLY great! Wow, super idea! /s (Note that it took a while before we got our charge attacks back).

3) I can see the reason why but melee 2.0 i wouldn't consider a successful rework at the slightest. Combos are just too ineffective and troublesome to pull off. To be honest, i'd be very surprised if melee one day is actually GOOD without feeling too cheap.

-snip-

1) Exactly! It's sad to see that combos, which they put so much effort into (at least graphically), are mostly worthless.

2) Tell me about it -.- When they removed chargeattacks in their rework, I was so annoyed at first. They were fun AND effective. Then when they were gonna reintroduce them, i was happy... until they got back in, as these were not the same awesome chargeattacks we used to have, but rather some clunky, weak, slow and useless mess.
Say what you will about liking the flashiness of combos (and channeling), but melee 1.0 (stamina and "charge vs normal attacks"-modding issues aside) actually FIT better in Warframe's gameplay! You spammed your normal melee for general bashing, you chargeattacked as an initiation "burst"-attack (but sadly became THE attack in melee 1.0, due to ignoring armor and having seperate modding), slideattacks were mainly gapclosers of sorts. It was simply melee fit for a hordeslaying game. None of this flashy but oversaturated clunky mess we have now.

Now, that said, combos and channeling CAN fit in Warframe's gameplay too. But they are so extremely lackluster right now, sadly, they need massive overhauls. And it doesn't help that they introduced mods that further take away from their potential (i.e. CO, Maiming and Slide-Rivens. Even Blood Rush and its ilk devalues combos, if you think about it).

3) I don't consider melee 2.0 successful at all either. Melee 1.0, with all its faults, felt like it was built around having Warframe's general pacing in mind. Melee 2.0 felt like it was built around being flashy (and to kill off chargeattacks), and... that's it.
I'd too be surprised if they could fix this, considering how much they've dug themselves in so badly in regards to NOT promote combos and channeling (and blocking, and many other melee manuevers for that matter). Considering it doesn't just require to fix melee to actually fit better into Warframe's gameplay, it also requires making enemies fit into the melee system (as I mentioned in my previous post)

TL;DR: Fixing melee in Warframe is actually a rather enormous task, since it's not just a numerical balancing that needs to be done.

Edited March 27, 2018 by Azamagon

[Vindicus8235]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)Madinogi said:

OMG. You are such a hypocrite Rune. 

you and the others are the ones moaning about a play style. so yes @BOSS_TPH76 is 100% spot on. its no ones problem but yours. its a subjective problem not objective. 

the sooner you people realise this the sooner you can move on with your warframe careers with peace. 

 

also balance in a PvE game? clearly you havnt been gaming for very long or Warframe is your first PvE based game. Balance in a power fantasy game is pointless and unneeded. the whole point of these games is to become borderline broken and powerful. you want to see a example of a game that implements balance in its PvE and it frustrates its players? look no further then Destiny and Destiny 2. no matter how powerful you become you barely doing anymore damage then if you were a lvl 1. 

theres a reason why 90% of the PvE games on the market barely implement balance in their games. because its not needed. infact it goes against their whole idea of being a power fantasy. 

 

if you really have a problem with Spin 2 win players. SHOCKER theres a solution. its called going solo or playing with like minded people. stop trying act like YOUR the only ones who matter here. your not. so stop trying force change on other players when they dont want it. 

its like being told by a guard "hey theirs a war zone just beyond this point. if you dont wanna get shot. stay out" but you decide to go in anyway and when you get shot you complain about how they are having a war over there. its no ones fault but yours knowing full well what could happen. when are people going to take responsibilities for their actions? seriously. 

Some of you are trying to turn this into some philosophical question where there must be "proof" that the slide attack combo is overpowered before you will entertain that it might be.  There's observational evidence that suggests it's overpowered but there's no test to run that proves, well, much of anything philosophically speaking--since we insist on taking it there.  Try to explain the color red to a man blind from birth so that he may "see" it as you do.  You can't.  Perhaps it's a limitation of language that can be solved in the future or perhaps it's an impossibility, but you're basically asking for me, and others, to describe red to the blind.  As I said a hundred pages back, everything posted here is opinion--from both sides.  Ultimately it's up to DE to use whatever metric they have to determine which side holds the more correct opinion.

Let's not forget that world on fire was not overpowered before the nerf change either, and was not altered based on how powerful it was in the upper tiers of the game, but because it was highly disruptive in lower tiers.  If DE concluded that world on fire was disruptive then slide attack spammers are disruptive as well, but in all tiers, as they do what Ember did/does only considerably better.