What if one of ember's abilities was replaced with a movement ability?

[Maka.Bones]

 I called it Heatdrive: because almost every single fire-based, superpowered character, can use fire to fly/give them propulsion. 

250 damage (If used with accelerant, it can cause enemies to light ablaze, causing a heavy DoT, which lasts 5s)

• Each successful enemy hit, would give ember an overall damage multiplier.  (like landslide, but it affects all of ember's damage--not just melee)

35 energy cost

20m range

Ember rapidly increases the temperature of the air behind her, causing it to give her forward propulsion. This effect Knock Downs, or staggers enemies within 10m, and makes ember invulnerable while she moves (only lasts about 0.8s, or less). Picture the "Charge" ability, from vanguards in Mass Effect... not an actual flying ability. Can be done by adopting itzal's 1st ability, or operator void dash, with an added  10m impact, or blast proc.

I suggested it on an ember idea post I made last week, but I wanted to know what people's opinion of it would be. 

 

Edit because people keep saying parkour makes mobility useless, and that it seems too much like other abilities... I mean jumping seems a lot like every other jump ability, but we still use it:

at 200 power str, 250 damage turns into 500, then after accelerant it's 1,500 damage. That's already enough to kill most trash below lvl 60, not enough to instagib/cheese higher lvl enemies If the range also increased with str, it would also give it a 40m range.  That's much much further than any parkour, in a much shorter amount of time.  It could also free up a "movement" mod for other people.

Ember needs more diversity: The reason ember is such a bad frame IS because she mainly has offensive abilities, yet they keep getting nerfed (or are unable to efficiently kill enemies, when compared to regular weapons). The reason people complain about WoF's reduced range, is because now they're exposed. If parkour alone was enough, people wouldn't complain as much. Parkour reduces incoming damage, but it doesn't eliminate incoming damage. This would help people use ember's abilities with more effectiveness & efficiency (time-wise), by combning CC & damage with better movement than parkour. Yet she would still be fragile and not just another tanky frame.

It wouldn't be like other abilities because: People use landslide because it kills everything in one hit, and for the rubble (not for mobility, so pls don't feed me that lie).  People use rhino's charge for the stagger & synergy to its iron skin. People use tailwind because it's fun, and because of the hover/damage reduction. People use dashing puddle for movement, to CC enemies or make them drown in the puddle of death. Wormhole because of increased mobility--which makes it much better than parkour. 

This one would offer ember much more increased mobility than parkour, at a shorter time. It would also serve as CC, and could ignite enemies (heat procs automatically cause panic...) The only reason I didn't suggest more damage (which i would be completely ok with... just sayin') is because then people would complain that the only thing ember does is "spams heatdrive and is immortal/kills everything" 

But if you guys still think it needs something more, here's some more flavor:

• It could give ember a damage multiplier, per cast that it hit at least one enemy--all of her other abilities would benefit from this, and would allow her better scaling  _{Included this in the ability}
• It could leave behind a fire-trail, or fireblast's fire ring
• Open to other ideas

Edited March 20, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[Maka.Bones]

Here's a link of the post with it:

 

 

Edited March 16, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[taiiat]

in another game perhaps, however Players are already so highly mobile that a Movement Ability is generally pretty hard to justify. reasons why Super Jump no longer exists - Tail Wind/Slash Dash/Rhino Charge/Tidal Surge allow very quick movement in a single direction, which can be useful at times but thesedays they're actually not really used for lateral mobility but instead for the other effects of the Ability. Tidal Surge and Tail Wind do make themselves relevant for movement by Mods being able to scale the speed, allowing them to move extremely fast.
but still in general, it's not highly desired by Players because of fast Movement being available to all Warframes at all times, in all directions. with more if you also have a Melee Weapon (*grumbles about how no Melee Sortie Modifiers are -Player Movement Sortie Modifiers*)

 

because almost every single fire-based, superpowered character, can use fire to fly/give them propulsion

this is a good reason why to not have something like it IMO rather than to have it. one would want to aim for ideas that do something different from other games, match the theme of the game and Character it is for, as well as being useful to use ofcourse.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

I believe both of us were in that thread discussing Ember post-nerf, I mentioned that Ember has no real diversity in the way she uses her element compared to other elemental frames.

that said, movement? eehhh. it's different, but I'm not sure how useful it's be, especially since Parkour 2.0 is usually enough to get around as is anyway. personally I'd prefer something more combat-oriented, but that's just me. (not gonna lie though, I LOVED Biotic Charge in ME3 multiplayer!)

[Maka.Bones]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

I believe both of us were in that thread discussing Ember post-nerf, I mentioned that Ember has no real diversity in the way she uses her element compared to other elemental frames.

that said, movement? eehhh. it's different, but I'm not sure how useful it's be, especially since Parkour 2.0 is usually enough to get around as is anyway. personally I'd prefer something more combat-oriented, but that's just me. (not gonna lie though, I LOVED Biotic Charge in ME3 multiplayer!)

Yeah... honestly i just want to use something like biotic charge lol. Miss that feeling of rushing in, and blowing things up. Rushing right into the face of the enemies... so much fun. 

[(XBOX)motionROTATION]

COming as someone who plays Hydroid,I can vouch that dashes are pretty great. But if going the movement route, I think they should replace WoF and let her become The Torch.  Let Fireball gain double range, let her AoE ring be cast 4 times like Frost snow globe (which would be nice by itself tbh) and halve the cast time of all abilities. 

That or I could see adding a dash and making her AoE be the ultimate, so long as one could place more than one ring and give it a bit more range. 

[Maka.Bones]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)motionROTATION said:

COming as someone who plays Hydroid,I can vouch that dashes are pretty great. But if going the movement route, I think they should replace WoF and let her become The Torch.  Let Fireball gain double range, let her AoE ring be cast 4 times like Frost snow globe (which would be nice by itself tbh) and halve the cast time of all abilities. 

That or I could see adding a dash and making her AoE be the ultimate, so long as one could place more than one ring and give it a bit more range. 

Yeah i'd like it if the merged WoF, and fireblast into one single ability that works better. Like you said, it could be her ultimate. You can already cast the ring multiple times btw... they all stack. 

Edited March 16, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[Denpoman]

5 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

Yeah i'd like it if the merged WoF, and fireblast into one single ability that works better. Like you said, it could be her ultimate. You can already cast the ring multiple times btw... they all stack. 

This.

The reason why I personally hate Ember is because she fosters a "turn-on-and-forget" type of gameplay, that made her clear low-ish level content mindlessly while the rest of her kit is nearly useless.

By itself it wouldnt be bad, but the fact that when she WAS used she simply showed up, turned WoF on and just ran around made other players just run after her, unable to actually play the game (or playing Raceframe, like we did years ago).

I'd personally change Ember in the following way:

-Passive-> the more Ember is surrounded by fire, the more damage her abilities deal, similar to how Octavia's Amp works with sound (this will make sense ahead). Also, fire procs last longer when caused by her.

-Fireball-> the base fireball leaves a Napalm style fire hazard. Can be charged to deal more damage and leave a bigger fire hazard.

-Accelerant-> briefly stuns enemies, leaves a pool of tar-like accelerant that increases fire damage dealt and slows enemies that step into it

-Fireblast-> pretty much the same as it currently is but has double the current range and deal % HP damage, so that is scales well (either that or strips armor)

-Blazedrive->can be charged like Inaros' 4, sacrificing Energy (not sure if max Energy or just current Energy) in exchange of giving Ember a fire aura that works much like WoF does at max power (so it has a relatively reduced range) and that consumes something like 0.5% charge per second. Can be activated, consuming 20% charge to very quickly dash (faster than Excalibur's dash) in a direction and trigger a large explosion (think eximus explosion) that knocks down enemies and sets them on fire

 

With the proposed changes Ember now has 2 clear gamplay styles that she can use to adapt to any situation, making her a much more versatile frame:

She can still use her run-and-gun gameplay style with her Fireball and new Blazedrive, where she charges her aura and runs around killing stuff (but with less range so she can't mindlessly clear missions).

If she needs to defend a place, she can now prepare her burning ground by quite literally setting the area on fire with Accelerant, charged Fireballs and Fireblast, while at the same ensuring she gets the extra power strength she needs with her passive by sacrificing her run-and-gun style

Edited March 16, 2018 by Denpoman

[Maka.Bones]

20 hours ago, taiiat said:

in another game perhaps, however Players are already so highly mobile that a Movement Ability is generally pretty hard to justify. reasons why Super Jump no longer exists - Tail Wind/Slash Dash/Rhino Charge/Tidal Surge allow very quick movement in a single direction, which can be useful at times but thesedays they're actually not really used for lateral mobility but instead for the other effects of the Ability. Tidal Surge and Tail Wind do make themselves relevant for movement by Mods being able to scale the speed, allowing them to move extremely fast.
but still in general, it's not highly desired by Players because of fast Movement being available to all Warframes at all times, in all directions. with more if you also have a Melee Weapon (*grumbles about how no Melee Sortie Modifiers are -Player Movement Sortie Modifiers*)

 

 

 

this is a good reason why to not have something like it IMO rather than to have it. one would want to aim for ideas that do something different from other games, match the theme of the game and Character it is for, as well as being useful to use ofcourse.

With that logic, players would never like to use those abilities which you spoke of. Or nova's wormhole, or razorwing. Plus the ability I suggested would have an AoE CC effect, so players could rush enemies without being immediately attacked. 

Edited March 16, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[Maka.Bones]

On 3/16/2018 at 5:30 AM, Denpoman said:

-Fireball-> the base fireball leaves a Napalm style fire hazard. Can be charged to deal more damage and leave a bigger fire hazard.

It already works like that... or do you mean even more than it does now? 

On 3/16/2018 at 5:30 AM, Denpoman said:

-Accelerant-> briefly stuns enemies, leaves a pool of tar-like accelerant that increases fire damage dealt and slows enemies that step into it

Sounds fun

On 3/16/2018 at 5:30 AM, Denpoman said:

-Blazedrive->can be charged like Inaros' 4, sacrificing Energy (not sure if max Energy or just current Energy) in exchange of giving Ember a fire aura that works much like WoF does at max power (so it has a relatively reduced range) and that consumes something like 0.5% charge per second. Can be activated, consuming 20% charge to very quickly dash (faster than Excalibur's dash) in a direction and trigger a large explosion (think eximus explosion) that knocks down enemies and sets them on fire

As long as she can charge in, and explode i'm also for it! xD

Edited March 19, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, Maka.Bones said:

With that logic, players would never like to use those abilities which you spoke of.
Or nova's wormhole, or razorwing.

Plus the ability I suggested would have an AoE CC effect, so players could rush enemies without being immediately attacked. 

they actually don't, for the most part. Rhino Charge is used basically only for Ironclad Charge, Slash Dash only if you're feeling too lazy to hit the Enemes in front of you (or you want to become a Jet Fighter and chase after a Grineer Ship - niche use though obviously).

Tail Wind and Tidal Surge since they scale speed with Mods, get used as i said. Wormhole obviously is great i didn't think mentioning it was necessary, as THE Speedrunning Ability. Players actually don't like Razorwing by large? Players only use it for the Crit Slash Pistols, and even then pmuch only for Bosses.

 

yes, you'd Stun Enemies like Biotic Charge does - but Ember has several types of CC as it is so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Maka.Bones]

On 3/16/2018 at 6:17 PM, taiiat said:

they actually don't, for the most part

Speak for yourself? Everyone I see playing titania, is using RW mode. Everyone I see playing zephyr is spamming tailwind. Everyone I see playing excalibro, uses the slash as a gap-closer, due to its iframe. Everyone I see playing nova, abuses the #*!% out of wormhole. Most hydroids really enjoy using tidal surge.  Every single volt, keeps the speed buff up 100% of the time.   These are all in public matches.

The only time people complain about razorwing, is the lack of vacuum, and that sometimes it feels clumsy to fly around. JUST TRY SUGGESTING TO REMOVE THE ABILITY. See what kind of backlash you get. 

Where have you been? lol..... Idk where you're even getting your info. Really your perceptive is a bit skewed, and not actually current to what most players consider fun. Maybe within your OWN small group of friends, it might be the case? So again... speak for yourself.

[taiiat]

1 minute ago, Maka.Bones said:

Speak for yourself? Everyone I see playing titania, is using RW mode. Everyone I see playing zephyr is spamming tailwind. Everyone I see playing excalibro, uses the slash as a gap-closer, due to its iframe. Everyone I see playing nova, abuses the #*!% out of wormhole. Most hydroids really enjoy using tidal surge.  Every single volt, keeps the speed buff up 100% of the time.   These are all in public matches.

by large Players are only Equipping Titania for Razorwing, the application of the other Abilities is niche and really blew over for the majority of the Playerbase(unsurprising, the Abilities can be useful but either require a ridiculous amount of spamming to make them effective or issues that Spellbind and Latern are really very, very similar as an Ability). again, Players are using it basically just for the Crit Slash Pistols - it's a much slimmer case where it's used as a Movement Ability (since it requires out of the ordinary Mods for it to be used as such - Sprint Mods aren't exactly ubiquitous or anything thesedays). people using it, are using it for the Damage. not Mobility.

somehow you haven't been reading and have ignored that i said in every single Post that Tail Wind and Tidal Surge retain use because Mods scale their speed so Players use them.
same deal for Wormhole, just totally missing the words i write.

it's funny you say Slash Dash is used extremely often because that's not true at all, if you see a random Excalibro he's got Exalted Machine Gun running for the entire Mission and the solution to every situation is to run a Macro on the Melee button and hope it dies.
or, Blinding anything and everything in existence as if he's the Warframe paparazzi.

yes in most Missions if you see a Volt at all it'll be Macrocasting Speed (and then i get to Extraction faster than them despite constantly canceling Speed the entire Mission, so not really sure what good Speed is doing them since they aren't using Parkour but that's a different matter). or Electric Shield if it's some sort of Boss.

 

 

i don't seem to have a very skewed sense of what random Players are using Warframes for, at all. i know i'm pretty spot on with Public Missions.

[(PSN)S_J_West77]

Imo if you did this you might as well delete ember as it sounds like what your describing is zephyr. Movement skills on 1, projectile skill 2, large cc on 4... And ember deluxe skin is a bird anyway 😁

Edited March 18, 2018 by (PS4)S_J_West77
Typos

[Denpoman]

On 16/03/2018 at 11:35 PM, Maka.Bones said:

It already works like that... or do you mean even more than it does now? 

Sounds fun

As long as she can charte in, and explode i'm also for it! xD

Yeah, that was me stating how her entire kit would be.

So really her Fireball wouldn't be changed at all.

[Maka.Bones]

18 hours ago, taiiat said:

somehow you haven't been reading and have ignored that i said in every single Post that Tail Wind and Tidal Surge retain use because Mods scale their speed so Players use them.
same deal for Wormhole, just totally missing the words i write.

Well that's because you originally said:

On 3/15/2018 at 7:37 PM, taiiat said:

but still in general, it's not highly desired by Players because of fast Movement being available to all Warframes at all times, in all directions. with more if you also have a Melee Weapon (*grumbles about how no Melee Sortie Modifiers are -Player Movement Sortie Modifiers*)

So basically.. Yes, players actually DO use most of these movement abilities, for the sake of movement.

18 hours ago, taiiat said:

it's funny you say Slash Dash is used extremely often because that's not true at all, if you see a random Excalibro he's got Exalted Machine Gun running for the entire Mission and the solution to every situation is to run a Macro on the Melee button and hope it dies.

You actually don't need a melee macro... shows how much you play him lol. ust hold down the mouse button, while in lightsaber mode. That's all you need to do. However you're right; most new players who play excalibur, mainly rely on lightsaber mode. Radial blind however, is a pretty good strategy.  But many youtubers who've used excalibur, and post videos of using him, actually spam slash dash alot, purely for movement. 

But slash-dash is the only ability that isn't often used for movement. In that one, you're right. 

At the end of the day, players will use/enjoy it as long as it gives them an advantage over the options which they currently have. Yes we can bullet jump everywhere, but that's a lot slower than using most other movement abilities. Bullet jumping doesn't have the stagger/heat proc AoF effect which I suggested, and it doesn't give us an i-frame (though it does reduce incoming damage). Bullet-jumping also doesn't go as far as 20m, in less than a second. And if the range scaled with either str, or with range, then It could go further. It would be awesome to use as a gap-closer, since ember lacks any defenses from *very far* ranged enemies (like snipers, from PoE)

Edited March 19, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[Maka.Bones]

11 hours ago, (PS4)S_J_West77 said:

Imo if you did this you might as well delete ember as it sounds like what your describing is zephyr. Movement skills on 1, projectile skill 2, large cc on 4... And ember deluxe skin is a bird anyway 😁

lol I mean.... ember really is just a zephyr on fire lol.  Ember is also more effective in close-quarter maps, than zephyr. Zephyr's abilities really shine in open spaces. And zephyr can actually hover now... I didn't suggest that ember should have the ability to hover, or fly lol

And also, people HAVE been suggesting an ember re-work. Which would effectively make her a different warframe altogether.

Rip Ember's original deluxe Q.Q It's so sad that us players lost that beautiful work of art. 

Edited March 19, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[taiiat]

32 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Well that's because you originally said:

to which you ignored:

On 3/15/2018 at 10:37 PM, taiiat said:

Tidal Surge and Tail Wind do make themselves relevant for movement by Mods being able to scale the speed, allowing them to move extremely fast

 

but, more importantly - all i'm getting is 'Ember should have this because Ember does not already have this'. even though it would fit the theme a lot better to have a longer Range Fire Ability. Fire Blast is sorta aimed there, but it's more of a medium Range Ability for sure.
if you want a long Range Ability, great! Charged Fireball is sorta the prime candidate there, if the effect on target was more effective and/or didn't have just Fire Status as potential CC. Ember doesn't really fit the Archetype that a Biotic Vanguard paints though.

[Maka.Bones]

44 minutes ago, taiiat said:

Ember doesn't really fit the Archetype that a Biotic Vanguard paints though.

When you consider the short range WoF has, the short range of the ring from fireblast (btw, why do you consider that fireblast is even  mid-range ability? It does 200 base damage.... not enough to kill anything outside of crawlers, or infested maggots), ember does actually fit the archetype of the vanguard.

Half of ember's abilities are short-mid range. Fireball is the only long-range one, but it isn't effective at killing enemies... only at delaying them. It also has travel-speed, and requires a long charge for max effect. All of which gives the enemy more opportunity to shoot you before you launch the firebol. 

44 minutes ago, taiiat said:

to which you ignored: Tidal Surge and Tail Wind do make themselves relevant for movement by Mods being able to scale the speed, allowing them to move extremely fast

Yeah, and I guess that means you ignored

On 3/15/2018 at 7:09 PM, Maka.Bones said:

I called it Heatdrive: because almost every single fire-based, superpowered character, can use fire to fly/give them propulsion. 

0-200 damage (mainly meant to be a movement iframe & CC) Edit: If used with accelerant, it can cause enemies to light ablaze (causing a heavy DoT, which lasts 5s)

35 energy cost

20m range

and also ignored 

1 hour ago, Maka.Bones said:

Yes we can bullet jump everywhere, but that's a lot slower than using most other movement abilities. Bullet jumping doesn't have the stagger/heat proc AoF effect which I suggested, and it doesn't give us an i-frame (though it does reduce incoming damage). Bullet-jumping also doesn't go as far as 20m, in less than a second. And if the range scaled with either str, or with range, then It could go further. It would be awesome to use as a gap-closer, since ember lacks any defenses from *very far* ranged enemies (like snipers, from PoE)

Oh and I don't simply want heat-dive just because I want it. I could just play zephyr if that's the case. I think ember needs heat-drive to change her current gameplay. Right now she is really good at short-mid range but lacks any survivability past 20 m. Heatdrive would be an alternative to flat out making ember tanky, or giving ember a really long-ranged sniper ability, which could just as easily be used in short-range scenarios.... assuming it actually killed enemies. 

She would still be a squishy frame, but would have mobility. Which means more survivability, without making her tanky. Also giving her an effective way to use her closer-ranged abilities. 

Edited March 19, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[Maka.Bones]

On 3/15/2018 at 7:09 PM, Maka.Bones said:

because almost every single fire-based, superpowered character, can use fire to fly/give them propulsion. 

@taiiat ^that is my reason for naming it heatdrive. Not my reasoning for saying that ember should have a movement ability. But yes, I do think that a fire-bird (ember's deluxe skin) should have a movement skill, instead of having her wings clipped.  (Even though I don't even like the entire "ember is a fried-chicken" concept.)

It would also complement her slow-moving firebol, and her short-range WoF or her mid-range accelerant/fireblast (though fireblast is literally just a weaker version of WoF) 

Edited March 19, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[Maka.Bones]

On 3/15/2018 at 7:37 PM, taiiat said:

his is a good reason why to not have something like it IMO rather than to have it. one would want to aim for ideas that do something different from other games, match the theme of the game and Character it is for, as well as being useful to use ofcourse.

This only tells me that you don't want it, just because you want to be different--or just because you don't want it.

 I mean, ok i guess you don't like the idea. That's all you really needed to say lol. 

 

Edited March 19, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[(PSN)Yes-Man-Kablaam]

On March 16, 2018 at 3:31 AM, Maka.Bones said:

Yeah... honestly i just want to use something like biotic charge lol. Miss that feeling of rushing in, and blowing things up. Rushing right into the face of the enemies... so much fun. 

Tbh sounds like Landslide.

[Maka.Bones]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Yes-Man-Kablaam said:

Tbh sounds like Landslide.

Maybe? But it would have longer range, less damage, added AoE stagger... More like tailwind, without the hover, and with fire/stagger/KD proc.

[Snydrex]

Hmm, in my opinion, it doesn't suit Ember.

She was always sold as a purely offensive warframe, so lack of mobility and defense skills was a given certainty on her rework. If this were to be fleshed out, then I would suggest bringing more to the table, especially if it was a movement ability, primarily. After all, as much as it doesn't seem like it, @taiiat is most certainly right when he says that parkour 2.0 removed the relevancy for most movement abilities in warframe's past ages. There are exceptions, of course, but he's right.

That being said, I imagine that if you're forgoing part of Ember's offensive role for a movement ability, I'd advise to give it more then a simple stagger/KD proc. That's very, very similar to Rhino charge, and Tailwind, and especially landslide. And those are all key 1 abilities because of the fact they are movement utility, and by extension, not quite useful (Excluding Atlas, because he gets invulnerability and ragdolling AOEs).

Say, make it more relevant to her offensive theme. Like if it caused enemies to combust and panic, running away in a rectangular AOE. Or maybe leaving a fire trail that spreads horizontally and carpet-burns enemies with heat proc CC. Or something. I know it's not the best example, but if Ember ever gets a movement ability, of all things, I imagine it should fit her theme of 'fire' more then 'Slash dash 2.0'. The theme shouldn't be "She can jet boost because she makes fire", it should be "Her jet boost does cool things with her fire powers."

At least, in my opinion, that's how it should be. If it really could happen.

 

 

 

 

[MattM01]

On 3/15/2018 at 7:09 PM, Maka.Bones said:

 I called it Heatdrive: because almost every single fire-based, superpowered character, can use fire to fly/give them propulsion. 

0-200 damage (mainly meant to be a movement iframe & CC) Edit: If used with accelerant, it can cause enemies to light ablaze (causing a heavy DoT, which lasts 5s)

35 energy cost

20m range

Ember rapidly increases the temperature of the air behind her, causing it to give her forward propulsion. This effect Knock Downs, or staggers enemies within 10m, and makes ember invulnerable while she moves (only lasts about 0.8s, or less). Picture the "Charge" ability, from vanguards in Mass Effect... not an actual flying ability. Can be done by adopting itzal's 1st ability, or operator void dash, with an added  10m impact, or blast proc.

I suggested it on an ember idea post I made last week, but I wanted to know what people's opinion of it would be. 

 

I like it. It is creative and not overpowered at all, lets face it, Ember's 1st ability is kind of ignored by a lot of people.