Can we get some update on the chat moderation?

[Fallen_Echo]

51 minutes ago, rune_me said:

Rune's rule of thumb #3: If you have to debate over whether a word is offensive or not, then it almost certainly is.

Im sure the word pepperoni is a disgusting offense, wanna talk about it?

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

3 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Literally the first chat message you get when you log is telling you that profanity is not allowed.

Yet it actually is to some extent.  Still, I have no idea what that has to do with the fact that profanity != slurs.  That's a huge sticking point for your argument and you can't make it go away with red herrings.

[Fallen_Echo]

7 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Yet it actually is to some extent.  Still, I have no idea what that has to do with the fact that profanity != slurs.  That's a huge sticking point for your argument and you can't make it go away with red herrings.

It has nothing to do with that, i never claimed that profanity is the same as slurs.

12 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

I dont know whats the reason profanity is not allowed in its basic form when we have a chat filter what is supposedly there to filter profanity.

As i said profanity in its basic form is not allowed and we dont really know where that extent you talked about ends and when it changes.

For example last year i got kicked from the chat for saying **** that bull, today when i tested it nothing happened.

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

2 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

It has nothing to do with that, i never claimed that profanity is the same as slurs.

You said:

Quote

Fourth, for the love of all whats gold and shiny enfore that cursed chat filter. The reason we have it is that we can turn it on if we feel like the world is too offensive. If someone turns it off that should mean that they are okay at whatever swearing comes up to them.

This is in addition to claiming that "gay" is a swear word in the same post.  If you understand the difference between slurs and swearing, then why say this?

[Fallen_Echo]

40 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

This is in addition to claiming that "gay" is a swear word in the same post.  If you understand the difference between slurs and swearing, then why say this?

Because gay as many have pointed out already is a grey area. You can use it as an insult or use it normally as a word for homosexuals.

I need to point out that gay in itself is not a slur and i myself dont use it as a swear word, i have better stuff for that, but the fourth point you quoted there is to make the chat more "free". I have never seen any online community what says the word trap as an insult too, but its still banned because its "derogatory" to some people .

Also:

On 2018. 04. 11. at 10:06 AM, Fallen_Echo said:

Third, make up your mind. Either universally ban all swearwords like gay, trap, "insert known religion" and soo on or dont do it at all. Everything has an offensive meaning if you try hard enough so its either all or nothing. If gay is good then traps should be okay and visa-versa.

We have a constant debate over the chat that whenever gay is offensive or not, in the morning you can freely say it without getting banned or kicked but as soon as moderators come online and turn on the bot (or whatever they do with it) its suddenly becomes a banable offense.

I want the chat filter to work like an universal agreement. You turned it off so that means you are okay with whatever stuff people are talking about, you turn it on everything is censored. There shouldnt be times where people can freely throw around extremely xenophobic madness without consequences or times where you say trap and get banned.

 

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

7 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Because gay as many have pointed out already is a grey area. You can use it as an insult or use it normally as a word for homosexuals.

I need to point out that gay in itself is not a slur and i myself dont use it as a swear word, i have better stuff for that, but the fourth point you quoted there is to make the chat more "free". I have never seen any online community what says the word trap as an insult too, but its still banned because its "derogatory" to some people .

Gay is a gray area, because it does have a dual meaning.  The problem is that it's also a slur (yes, it is a slur) and too many kids think they are being edgy or funny by using it like a slur, so DE has to stop all usage because of them.  If you want to be able to say it in a non-slur way, then talk to them about not ruining it for everyone else.

Secondly, you're still doing it.  Gay, when used in a derogatory manner, is a slur.  It's not a swear.  It's not a curse word.  It's a slur.  Turning off the profanity filter isn't to allow people to use slurs, it's to allow people to see profanity.  It's not the same thing, as I keep having to tell you.  I should not have to opt out of having people use slurs that are meant to demean and dehumanize other people.  No one should.  What you want is simply another way of having discrimination in practice.

And, the pepperoni thing is so silly that it's hard to believe that anyone takes it seriously.  But, hey, find me someone that uses pepperoni as a slur, how it hurts other people, and how it has negative connotations in the world that actually deny people rights while also demeaning and dehumanizing them, and then we can talk.  Until then, it's some stupid comic book author trying to be edgy and looking stupid instead.

7 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

I want the chat filter to work like an universal agreement. You turned it off so that means you are okay with whatever stuff people are talking about, you turn it on everything is censored. There shouldnt be times where people can freely throw around extremely xenophobic madness without consequences or times where you say trap and get banned.

What you want is a chat that caters to the bigots among us and discriminates in practice against all others.  The profanity filter is not there to allow people to use slurs.  People who use slurs are not welcome and should not be welcome, and DE rightfully suspends them for being toxic.

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Gay is a gray area, because it does have a dual meaning.  The problem is that it's also a slur (yes, it is a slur) and too many kids think they are being edgy or funny by using it like a slur, so DE has to stop all usage because of them.  If you want to be able to say it in a non-slur way, then talk to them about not ruining it for everyone else.

Secondly, you're still doing it.  Gay, when used in a derogatory manner, is a slur.  It's not a swear.  It's not a curse word.  It's a slur.  Turning off the profanity filter isn't to allow people to use slurs, it's to allow people to see profanity.  It's not the same thing, as I keep having to tell you.  I should not have to opt out of having people use slurs that are meant to demean and dehumanize other people.  No one should.  What you want is simply another way of having discrimination in practice.

And, the pepperoni thing is so silly that it's hard to believe that anyone takes it seriously.  But, hey, find me someone that uses pepperoni as a slur, how it hurts other people, and how it has negative connotations in the world that actually deny people rights while also demeaning and dehumanizing them, and then we can talk.  Until then, it's some stupid comic book author trying to be edgy and looking stupid instead.

Fair point.

For the peperoni thing you would be suprised how many people are too stupid to realize that its not a real insult. Soo far i used it here and in some other game chat too where people got triggered because they have no idea what it means they take it as some hardcore insult.

1 hour ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

What you want is a chat that caters to the bigots among us and discriminates in practice against all others.  The profanity filter is not there to allow people to use slurs.  People who use slurs are not welcome and should not be welcome, and DE rightfully suspends them for being toxic.

One of the points in the main discussion is that we implement a report system and the ability to set certain people on perma-censoring. With the report system whenever theres atleast 3 (preferably 4) mods around they can read throught the reported messages and decide what is ban worthy. When there are no mods around we can turn the bot into a force censorer so instead of banning it just censores up everything what is against the rules and fits in the chat filter.

We could even add in the ability that if atleast 5 guys report someone they get automatically censored regardless of mod presence or bot triggering. Obviously with some cooldown to avoid trolling.

[Sean]

Better to just allow people to create their own filters.

If people choose not to even have a filter enabled, then that's on them (why is there even an option to "toggle profanity filter"?).

 

With it being a custom list, then people can put any word in there regardless of language, so if someone is easily offended by a word regardless of its context, then they can have it so their chat doesn't have it listed at all.

There can be a basic "default" list though that can be edited, enabled by default of course, but still optional.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Sean

[Duduminador]

Earlier this week I learned that 'milf' gets you stealth kicked off Region. I can get along with that, altho I think this censoring is starting to cross a line.

Today I learned that "hentai" can also get you stealth kicked...

So... what's going on? Warframe gonna start pandering to social justice now? The fact that I can put my money and get a sexy skin out of Tennogen is one of the reasons I simply stand up for this game blindly, I have the freedom to do that, may the SJW talk stay out of it. The fact that things can looking good and appealing should never be an issue of concern. But I gotta say, censoring the word hentai really did tickle a nerv.

Edited April 15, 2018 by Duduminador

[TheGrimCorsair]

Yep, moderation is working pretty well. They really ought to make it a 3-day ban.

[DarkStryder]

Im not sure why I'm even bothering to comment anymore since every other comment I've made has been "rebutted" with cherry-picked or selectively quoted excerpts by randoms deliberately ignoring what was written, and I'm tired of wasting my time trying to use logic with people that couldn't extrapolate their way out of a wet paper bag... still I have hope someone from DE can answer at least this one question. Region was discussing character customization when someone brought up gender swap skins for frames. Foolishly I tried to engage with the community. Why was I kicked for the following comment

"when the game was in development there was a gender option, the reason excal and nyx look alike is because originally they were the same character"

The caveat being its been a few days so I can't recall the comment verbatim but I believe its close enough to make my point; the automated system is absurd, and a person made it that way.

Edited April 15, 2018 by DarkStryder
spelling

[krc473]

1 minute ago, DarkStryder said:

"when the game was in development there was a gender option, the reason excal and nyx look alike is because originally they were the same character"

I can see no good reason for there to be an automated kick on that. Was it the bot or a chat mod that kicked you? Unless "Gender" or something has become a "bad word" now. Or you missed something quite important.

 

As for an actual DE staff member answering, that is unlikely.

[DarkStryder]

31 minutes ago, krc473 said:

I can see no good reason for there to be an automated kick on that. Was it the bot or a chat mod that kicked you? Unless "Gender" or something has become a "bad word" now. Or you missed something quite important.

 

As for an actual DE staff member answering, that is unlikely.

When I said it wasn't verbatim the only likely misrepresentation would be grammatical. As for how I was kicked, the only time I sit in region is when I'm passing time for something else ie a friend went to the bathroom so we are waiting, or doing something else on my other monitor, etc and not paying 100% attention so unfortunately I cant be 100% sure if it was instantaneous (bot) or delayed (mod). It may be that gender on its own is fine but when paired with another word it becomes forbidden. Possibly the way Nezha and trap are individually usable but can't be in the same comment. Or a mod just doesn't like me and abuses their position to troll. 

For what its worth I'm not expecting DE to send me a handwritten letter, but this is "feedback" surely someone will see this.. unless the negative player experience I'm having is working as DE intended and I'm a fool for trying.

Edited April 15, 2018 by DarkStryder
spelling

[krc473]

7 minutes ago, DarkStryder said:

It may be that gender on its own is fine but when paired with another word it becomes forbidden.

Still, based on what you said it seems odd for it to be kick-worthy. I fail to see which word(s) you could have said that would make it offensive to anyone. Still, proof that the system is just terribly broken and needs an update.

[DarkStryder]

3 minutes ago, krc473 said:

Still, based on what you said it seems odd for it to be kick-worthy. I fail to see which word(s) you could have said that would make it offensive to anyone. Still, proof that the system is just terribly broken and needs an update.

Your reasonableness is appreciated.  

[nerfinator6]

I just want to be able to talk in clan, squad and PM people if kickbot just DECIDES to be mean and ban me for a day, week, whatever. I get not being able to talk in public chat if you said something stupid, but not being able to talk to anyone at ALL? Seems a bit dumb to me.

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

18 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

One of the points in the main discussion is that we implement a report system and the ability to set certain people on perma-censoring. With the report system whenever theres atleast 3 (preferably 4) mods around they can read throught the reported messages and decide what is ban worthy. When there are no mods around we can turn the bot into a force censorer so instead of banning it just censores up everything what is against the rules and fits in the chat filter.

Minus the part that requires chat mods to be on (I believe there are 3 total in NA on XB1, BTW) isn't this how it already works?  Chatbot is a force censor that simply looks for filtered keywords and bans based on that.  I'm not seeing the problem.

18 hours ago, Sean said:

Better to just allow people to create their own filters.

No, it's not.  I should not have to opt-out of hearing slurs, and people who use them should not be allowed the privilege to use the chats.

6 hours ago, nerfinator6 said:

I just want to be able to talk in clan, squad and PM people if kickbot just DECIDES to be mean and ban me for a day, week, whatever. I get not being able to talk in public chat if you said something stupid, but not being able to talk to anyone at ALL? Seems a bit dumb to me.

I'm sure kickbot just decided to do that to you for no reason.  /s

If all that happened were a little kick from region, then no one would feel the sting and people wouldn't care about getting bans.  And, the chat would be toxic and full of slurs.  No thanks.  If you show that you can't responsibly use the chat, then those privileges should be revoked.  When you give a child a time out, you don't let them do other things during their time out because you need the lesson to stick.

[Sean]

1 minute ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

No, it's not.  I should not have to opt-out of hearing slurs, and people who use them should not be allowed the privilege to use the chats.

I'm assuming that you mean "you should not have the option to opt out" because otherwise that doesn't make sense as I even said there'd be a standard "default" list that is enabled from the start (and entirely customizable). So the only "opting out" you'd be doing is if you chose to disable the filter for yourself.

 

If someone really wants to insult people, they'll do so anyways, and they'll find whatever method they can that the automated system doesn't detect. Having a list that can be customized by a player then allows those "workarounds" to be added to your own personal filter. There could even be a parental lock on the filter so a parent can prevent their child from even being able to disable it.

 

The current system only penalizes users who choose to use more "risque" words, despite the context in the situation (like saying the name of a WF streamer, or using the word "trap").

[Fallen_Echo]

22 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Minus the part that requires chat mods to be on (I believe there are 3 total in NA on XB1, BTW) isn't this how it already works?  Chatbot is a force censor that simply looks for filtered keywords and bans based on that.  I'm not seeing the problem

My variant does not ban at all automatically, instead it force censores the users posts till the moment a mod comes up and decided if he is fine or not.

This does not remove your ability to play the game for minor offences like the autoswitch chat ban and if you really gone too far you get your punishment.

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

2 hours ago, Sean said:

I'm assuming that you mean "you should not have the option to opt out" because otherwise that doesn't make sense as I even said there'd be a standard "default" list that is enabled from the start (and entirely customizable). So the only "opting out" you'd be doing is if you chose to disable the filter for yourself.

 

If someone really wants to insult people, they'll do so anyways, and they'll find whatever method they can that the automated system doesn't detect. Having a list that can be customized by a player then allows those "workarounds" to be added to your own personal filter. There could even be a parental lock on the filter so a parent can prevent their child from even being able to disable it.

 

The current system only penalizes users who choose to use more "risque" words, despite the context in the situation (like saying the name of a WF streamer, or using the word "trap").

No, I mean I should not have to go through and figure out what words I need to filter out, nor should the chat be handled that way.  The onus should not be on the people on the receiving end of slurs to do something about it.  The onus should be on the people who decide that uttering slurs is OK.

Secondly, calling slurs simply more "risque" is bottom of the barrel type stuff.

2 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

My variant does not ban at all automatically, instead it force censores the users posts till the moment a mod comes up and decided if he is fine or not.

This does not remove your ability to play the game for minor offences like the autoswitch chat ban and if you really gone too far you get your punishment.

Chat banning doesn't negate one's ability to play the game either.  It simply removes the person from chat, as they've shown they are not worthy of the privilege of using the chat services provided.  One can still play without chat.

What happens in your suggested system with the message that has been censored?  Does it appear?  Is it invisible until it is OK'd or until the user receives punishment from a mod?  Is that sufficient?

[Sean]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

No, I mean I should not have to go through and figure out what words I need to filter out, nor should the chat be handled that way.  The onus should not be on the people on the receiving end of slurs to do something about it.  The onus should be on the people who decide that uttering slurs is OK.

Secondly, calling slurs simply more "risque" is bottom of the barrel type stuff.

 

Except it'd be literally the same current list that the bot uses, just with the added benefit of being able to customize it and add in any workaround words that people use. Non-English slurs, substituting numbers for letters, adding spaces, using shorthand, etc, etc, are all still completely valid within the current system despite being worse than most of what people get banned over, all of which could be filtered out in a custom list.

 

The people who use words to insult still do in the current system because of its limitations, putting what people choose to see or not see into the hands of the players is the best option.

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Chat banning doesn't negate one's ability to play the game either.  It simply removes the person from chat, as they've shown they are not worthy of the privilege of using the chat services provided.  One can still play without chat.

What happens in your suggested system with the message that has been censored?  Does it appear?  Is it invisible until it is OK'd or until the user receives punishment from a mod?  Is that sufficient?

You know what happens if you write in a prohibited word here? #*!%    <-this is how it looks and no one can do anything about it, this is my exact plan on how should it work. The message appears with every part what is not part of the filter.

Even after OK'd the original messages till the mods saying it ok stay censored, they could even decide to only issue censoring instead of ban with a warning that the next offense comes with a ban.

Edited April 15, 2018 by Fallen_Echo

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

2 hours ago, Sean said:

Except it'd be literally the same current list that the bot uses, just with the added benefit of being able to customize it and add in any workaround words that people use. Non-English slurs, substituting numbers for letters, adding spaces, using shorthand, etc, etc, are all still completely valid within the current system despite being worse than most of what people get banned over, all of which could be filtered out in a custom list.

 

The people who use words to insult still do in the current system because of its limitations, putting what people choose to see or not see into the hands of the players is the best option.

If you're arguing that people should not be suspended for typing slurs because it will simply be filtered, then I disagree.  If you're saying that we should leave it as is, plus add a filter for individuals, my response is to ask, don't we have that already?  I mean, we have a chat filter.  People can put what they want into it.  I don't get what you're asking for, unless you think that people should be able to write what they want and just have it filtered.  If that's the case, then, no, I can't agree with it.  I should not have to put in a filter to simply not see slurs.  It should be up to other people not to say them in the first place.

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

You know what happens if you write in a prohibited word here? #*!%    <-this is how it looks and no one can do anything about it, this is my exact plan on how should it work. The message appears with every part what is not part of the filter.

Even after OK'd the original messages till the mods saying it ok stay censored, they could even decide to only issue censoring instead of ban with a warning that the next offense comes with a ban.

The problem with that is that we can usually infer what word was used by the context.

[Sean]

9 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

If you're arguing that people should not be suspended for typing slurs because it will simply be filtered, then I disagree.  If you're saying that we should leave it as is, plus add a filter for individuals, my response is to ask, don't we have that already?  I mean, we have a chat filter.  People can put what they want into it.  I don't get what you're asking for, unless you think that people should be able to write what they want and just have it filtered.  If that's the case, then, no, I can't agree with it.  I should not have to put in a filter to simply not see slurs.  It should be up to other people not to say them in the first place.

The problem with that is that we can usually infer what word was used by the context.

 

Filters in their current forum are chat specific, this would remove any word or phrase that you deemed to be inappropriate, such as the numerous things that already would not get flagged by the bot.

The current system just doesn't work, it either doesn't catch things actually insulting or it catches things that are really perfectly fine. The slurs you're mentioning that you'd see are ones that you'd ALREADY see in the current system.

 

And yes, the problem is that people can usually infer what word is intended, but then if you can customize the list, you'd know to then add that into your list.

[JamesMcJam]

I got banned for asking if a banned word is banned. I guess I got an answer, but two weeks is way too long, especially for a chatbot ban. This is my first strike too, so at least give me some warning before you make the game literally unplayable for two weeks.

I would also appreciate some more clarity, like maybe a message with ban length, also an easily accessible list containing all banned words with their respective ban lengths. This current system is arbitrary and untenable.