So we got another "Mass Kill" mission, can we get an actual Stealth one next?

[rune_me]

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

"Stealth frames" as you put it, are just frames with cloaking, and we have the means to cloak any frame. And they can trivialize both stealth related missions and mass killing missions. I think a proper enemy counter to invisibility is long overdue (no bs invisible nullifier auras though, more like enemies designed to detect and dispel cloaking with a well telegraphed ability that you can dodge or interrupt)

The problem isn't so much invisibility itself, as the fact that it tends to be permanent. Octavia and Ivara are always invis, Loki is only out of invis for the half a second it takes to recast it.

Many stealth games has invis that can not be countered, but where it's either an item you have to use (and thus loose) or it's just a very short duration that allows you to rush past something and hope you get to cover before it runs out.

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

Mostly the problem is level layout, many tilesets simply aren't stealth-friendly and lack of reward for being stealthy (and DE nerfed stealth farming because it was as effective as mass murder, despite their claims at the time that they didn't like the lootcaves like Draco used to be)

The problem is still the fact that levels in this game is meant to be played over and over. No matter the level design, once you've run the mission 50 times, you will know how to stealth it and go undetected every time you run it and you are back to running on mindless auto pilot. We all had to be careful and look around when we first did spy missions, now we don't - stealth frame or not, we can run through them in no time and without having to think. The same will happen to any other stealth specific mode that is added to the game.

[Tricky5hift]

On 2018-04-30 at 7:58 PM, Prof.549 said:

I'd recommend you to play another game then. Something like Splinter Cell or MGS. It's impossible to implement in this game. The engine is simply cant do it. It's always hardy doing it's job.

Are you one of DE's developers?

How do you know that this game's engine is not capable of supporting stealth gameplay?

I'm not an expert but I don't think its really up to the game's engine to decide whether stealth is a viable implementation.

DE has introduced bits and pieces of core stealth mechanics but always invest more in the horde mode killhouse gameplay.

So really its up to DE if they want to invest in a stealth rework which I would highly encourage.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Tricky5hift

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

4 hours ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

the problem is that having proper stealth means outright banning or nerfing stealth frames, as our current cloaking abilities can trivialize just about any current content. I'm not really a fan of mandatory stealth anyway, not as satisfying as blowing stuff up.

Not necessarily, enemies just need more counters to invisibility.

We already have Hyekka and Drahk Masters, who are alerted upon their pets detecting you, even while invisible.

Aside from them and Nullifiers, giving other enemies more ways to fight invisibility would be a welcome change in my eyes.

Edited May 2, 2018 by (XB1)Graysmog

[(PSN)LubzinNJ]

Please forgive my ignorance but I have no idea what you're talking about, can someone explain this topic to me

[Arniox]

On 2018-04-29 at 10:29 PM, Nazrethim said:

Title.

It needs a complete overhaul of the stealth and AI in the game. It's not just about 'stealth' being reworked, it's also AI needing a rework. Like if one AI sees you, the entire room and the next somehow also see you. 

[Lahared]

I thought this was stealth?

 

Oops.

[DatDarkOne]

4 hours ago, rune_me said:

 

The problem is still the fact that levels in this game is meant to be played over and over. No matter the level design, once you've run the mission 50 times, you will know how to stealth it and go undetected every time you run it and you are back to running on mindless auto pilot. We all had to be careful and look around when we first did spy missions, now we don't - stealth frame or not, we can run through them in no time and without having to think. The same will happen to any other stealth specific mode that is added to the game.

This wasn't a problem in the game Tenchu Z and others in that series.  I don't see it as a problem for Warframe either.  

1 hour ago, Arniox said:

It needs a complete overhaul of the stealth and AI in the game. It's not just about 'stealth' being reworked, it's also AI needing a rework. Like if one AI sees you, the entire room and the next somehow also see you. 

Not quite true.  The whole room doesn't get alerted when just one enemy sees you.  Only Infested are like that.  I know this for sure because I seen it happen multiple times today while I was repeating spy missions to rank up the Veldt and Sigma/Octantis today.  

They still have a sight/awareness range and don't always see their buddies die, run, etc.  That is unless they set off the alarm or are Infested.  The Infested are a special case because they have hivemind.  

[rune_me]

2 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

This wasn't a problem in the game Tenchu Z and others in that series.  I don't see it as a problem for Warframe either.  

It wasn't a problem because the game was an adventure game with a story. Just like Dishonored or Deus Ex, you played it from start to finish and at the end you rolled credits and were done with it. You might play through it one or more time. But if you played it 50 times, the "stealth" challenge would be long gone because you knew exactly what to do where on every one of the games levels.

[DatDarkOne]

2 minutes ago, rune_me said:

It wasn't a problem because the game was an adventure game with a story. Just like Dishonored or Deus Ex, you played it from start to finish and at the end you rolled credits and were done with it. You might play through it one or more time. But if you played it 50 times, the "stealth" challenge would be long gone because you knew exactly what to do where on every one of the games levels.

Or you play it over and over again because you like the gameplay.  Hmmmmm.  Tenchu Z didn't have nearly as much story as Warframe does.  

In a lot of ways it was extremely similar to the spy, exterminate, sabotage, and assassinate mission that are in Warframe.  

[rune_me]

4 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Or you play it over and over again because you like the gameplay.

Point being, if the gameplay is "stealth" then it stops being proper gameplay once the stealth elements are no longer challenging. Again, spy missions are a good example of this. It was challanging when you didn't know how to do them. But now, it takes 10-20 seconds per vault, you just run the same route, avoid the same enemies the same way, hack the same consoles, in the same order, every time. It becomes routine and not really fun at all.

8 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Tenchu Z didn't have nearly as much story as Warframe does.

There's story in Warframe? Aside from some bland sci-fi mumbo-jumpo that I can't be bothered to get invested in, I mean?

[ComfyOlivia]

6 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Fun Fact: I hate defense missions, I hate defending useless pieces of garbage (I do actually enjoy Sortie Defense, since I can give the operative a gun and he will DO something) and I avoid them like the plague (except Sortie defenses, unless they have a bs modifier that makes the whole thing unbearable).

Stealth missions aren't enjoyed by people who prefer running guns ablaze because they have a different core essence. Stealth is about making waiting engaging as well as confronting superior forces, while the latter is about being a nigh unstoppable force facing legions of enemies with a grit.

While reworking stealth for the general missions is a daunting task, adding stealth specific missions with it's own set of rules (and enemies designed to counter stuff like invisibility and reckless power spam) is easier by comparison, and safer in case people don't like having stealth sections smacked in the middle of normally run-and-gun missions. Mostly the problem is level layout, many tilesets simply aren't stealth-friendly and lack of reward for being stealthy (and DE nerfed stealth farming because it was as effective as mass murder, despite their claims at the time that they didn't like the lootcaves like Draco used to be)

"Fun Fact: I hate defense missions, I hate defending useless pieces of garbage (I do actually enjoy Sortie Defense, since I can give the operative a gun and he will DO something) and I avoid them like the plague (except Sortie defenses, unless they have a bs modifier that makes the whole thing unbearable)."

I feel it. I've personally spent more time in Defense missions across every tileset in my 1700 hours than any other game mode. I do everything I can at this point to avoid Defense missions. 

"Stealth missions aren't enjoyed by people who prefer running guns ablaze because they have a different core essence. Stealth is about making waiting engaging as well as confronting superior forces, while the latter is about being a nigh unstoppable force facing legions of enemies with a grit."

Don't get me wrong, I love stealth in games where the point of the game is stealth. Games like Sniper Elite, Payday, Splinter Cell, Dishonored, and even MGSV to some extent. Warframe is a horde shooter. The guns blazing feels so complete in this game because that's what DE was aiming for. It's not just that I don't enjoy stealth missions because I like going loud. I don't enjoy stealth missions because they aren't fun in Warframe. I don't know enough about game design to say this is impossible to do while maintaining the current flow of combat when going loud, but I just don't see how they can incorporate a stealth system without compromising what makes the horde shooter gameplay so entertaining. They're the two opposite ends of the spectrum. As you're saying, it's about making even something like waiting engaging while you engage superior foes. That alone breaks what the game currently is. Warframe's AI is absolute trash. We've been asking for AI improvements for as long as I've used the forums (4 years now). They'd either have to up the AI quality or give more stupid enemy mechanics that will screw over the non-stealth folks. Then, you'd have to make the moments in-between direct combat engaging as well. Perhaps you have some thoughts on this, because I'm not really sure what to give on this. Really, stealth lends itself to more of a realistic approach to combat. Warframe is not like that at all. 

Again, not at all saying I'm against stealth. It would be interesting if they can work it in to the game. That's a big IF, though. Too much of the game would have to be changed to satisfy something that I can't say I see a lot of people asking for.

"While reworking stealth for the general missions is a daunting task, adding stealth specific missions with it's own set of rules (and enemies designed to counter stuff like invisibility and reckless power spam) is easier by comparison, and safer in case people don't like having stealth sections smacked in the middle of normally run-and-gun missions. Mostly the problem is level layout, many tilesets simply aren't stealth-friendly and lack of reward for being stealthy (and DE nerfed stealth farming because it was as effective as mass murder, despite their claims at the time that they didn't like the lootcaves like Draco used to be)"

No, the biggest issue is that new gametypes are always the main focus for new content for months following its' release. DE overloaded us with Archwing stuff (stuff that a lot of people still don't like) for several months after its' release. Anyone that was uninterested in Archwing was pretty much screwed on content for that period of time. The same thing just happened with POE. I can guarantee you that they will make a new quest based in it, they will lock a frame behind it, and people who don't like stealth will be frustrated. Especially if you don't allow them to go loud and power spam and go invisible, like you're suggesting. Yea, it's not as bad as forcing people to randomly do stealth bits in other missions, but it's forcing people to play a certain way that isn't how the game has played for what is usually the entirety of a person's playtime. 

The issues you listed are why it won't work with the way the game currently is. I agree fully. However, you have to account for more than just limitations in-game. I personally would be wholly surprised if people generally positively received the mode you are suggesting. It forces them to use a particular playstyle. It's being exclusive to certain players when the goal is to be inclusive.

 

If they can get past this and still make it engaging for your loud and proud players, I could see it working, but it's going to take more than just a special tileset with special rules. 

[CrazyValkyr]

Am I the only one, who has their hair standing up in horror, when seeing the topic name?

Not to be a downer OP, but if I wanted to play Stealth-based games, I'd not play Warframe. In fact, if Warframe was a stealth-based game & not the loving mass-killing simulator, I'd not be playing the game at all, as this kind of content simply doesn't interest me.

[DatDarkOne]

7 hours ago, rune_me said:

There's story in Warframe? Aside from some bland sci-fi mumbo-jumpo that I can't be bothered to get invested in, I mean?

That was my point.  Not every game has a detailed story or plot.  

As for the other about challenge, not everyone plays a game for challenge.  Some just like the gameplay as I said before.  

[Nazrethim]

hace 14 horas, rune_me dijo:

The problem is still the fact that levels in this game is meant to be played over and over. No matter the level design, once you've run the mission 50 times, you will know how to stealth it and go undetected every time you run it and you are back to running on mindless auto pilot. We all had to be careful and look around when we first did spy missions, now we don't - stealth frame or not, we can run through them in no time and without having to think. The same will happen to any other stealth specific mode that is added to the game.

 

 

hace 9 horas, DatDarkOne dijo:

Or you play it over and over again because you like the gameplay.  Hmmmmm.  Tenchu Z didn't have nearly as much story as Warframe does.  

In a lot of ways it was extremely similar to the spy, exterminate, sabotage, and assassinate mission that are in Warframe.  

I do just that with Mark of the Ninja. Since there are several ways to solve each puzzle I played the games more times than I can counter, trying different aproaches to the same problems, and that game has just 6 costumes (with different advantages and disadvantages), 6 distraction tools, 6 attack tools and a rather simplistic AI.

And I recall Spy missions getting nerfed pretty hard, since the random elements like indestructible/frozen vents, different enemy spawns (only 1 of the grineer vaults kept this) were removed or culled.

hace 7 horas, CrazyValkyr dijo:

Am I the only one, who has their hair standing up in horror, when seeing the topic name?

Not to be a downer OP, but if I wanted to play Stealth-based games, I'd not play Warframe. In fact, if Warframe was a stealth-based game & not the loving mass-killing simulator, I'd not be playing the game at all, as this kind of content simply doesn't interest me.

I mean "adding" a new stealth-centric mission type, not "making the whole game stealth-centric".

 

hace 9 horas, CoRRh dijo:

No, the biggest issue is that new gametypes are always the main focus for new content for months following its' release. DE overloaded us with Archwing stuff (stuff that a lot of people still don't like) for several months after its' release. Anyone that was uninterested in Archwing was pretty much screwed on content for that period of time. The same thing just happened with POE. I can guarantee you that they will make a new quest based in it, they will lock a frame behind it, and people who don't like stealth will be frustrated. Especially if you don't allow them to go loud and power spam and go invisible, like you're suggesting. Yea, it's not as bad as forcing people to randomly do stealth bits in other missions, but it's forcing people to play a certain way that isn't how the game has played for what is usually the entirety of a person's playtime. 

The issues you listed are why it won't work with the way the game currently is. I agree fully. However, you have to account for more than just limitations in-game. I personally would be wholly surprised if people generally positively received the mode you are suggesting. It forces them to use a particular playstyle. It's being exclusive to certain players when the goal is to be inclusive.

If they can get past this and still make it engaging for your loud and proud players, I could see it working, but it's going to take more than just a special tileset with special rules. 

DE survived the Lunaro Update which was entirely centered around Conclave (which a big chunk of the playerbase absolutely despised) and sans Ivara and the ocassional sortie, players who don't like stealth-related missions can just ignore that content.

What I'm proposing would be well received by the people who do like Stealth gameplay, which is who the content is aimed for, and having more stealth options will keep players in while not really pushing players out. When I started I almost quit Warframe because stealth was completely pointless. Then DE added Spy 2.0 and the Stealth multiplier and I got hooked to the game. I still level up my warframes and weapons trough stealth even though it's not the most effective way to do so. And I can run most missions stealthy without invisibility with the right tools (mostly a bow, some throwing knives and a good melee with quick stealth attacks)

[DatDarkOne]

38 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

And I recall Spy missions getting nerfed pretty hard, since the random elements like indestructible/frozen vents, different enemy spawns (only 1 of the grineer vaults kept this) were removed or culled.

That would be because people complained that it was "too hard" or "too annoying".  

I myself love to do as many of the missions(regardless if they are spy or not) with the goal being to not alert anyone or any of the enemies.  I think that if DE rewarded doing things like that then more would try using stealth tactics instead of Leeroy Jenkins everything in sight.  

 

Have you noticed how often there are posts/topics complaining about the stealth Mastery Tests being "impossible".  LOL.  I think it mostly has to do with lack of patience/planning that is usually required to truly do real stealth.  

Edited May 2, 2018 by DatDarkOne
slight grammar corrections

[Nazrethim]

hace 1 hora, DatDarkOne dijo:

That would be because people complained that it was "too hard" or "too annoying".  

I myself love to do as many of the missions(regardless if they are spy or not) with the goal being to not alert anyone or any of the enemies.  I think that if DE rewarded doing things like that then more would try using stealth tactics instead of Leeroy Jenkins everything in sight.  

Basically give a big affinity/credits/whatever bonus for finishing a mission without triggering any alarm that gets reduced drastically if you trigger one, then be reduced further by triggering more alarms. Another one for not alerting or being detected by enemies. Perhaps extending the demn Stealth affinity multiplier to 1min and making it also affect resource drops from kills.

hace 1 hora, DatDarkOne dijo:

Have you noticed how often there are posts/topics complaining about the stealth Mastery Tests being "impossible".  LOL.  I think it mostly has to do with lack of patience/planning that is usually required to truly do real stealth.  

Another pointer is that we don't have a starter "stealth frame". Would be nice to have, say, Ash (who is a stealth frame with all his abilities being silent, the most ninja frame of all and his stats and abilities are well rounded unlike Loki McSquishy). Basically since Warframe is a TPS /Hack&Slash with RPG elements, why not give from the get go the Warrior(Excalibur)Mage(Volt/Mag)Thief(Ash) choice at start?

[DatDarkOne]

26 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Basically give a big affinity/credits/whatever bonus for finishing a mission without triggering any alarm that gets reduced drastically if you trigger one, then be reduced further by triggering more alarms. Another one for not alerting or being detected by enemies. Perhaps extending the demn Stealth affinity multiplier to 1min and making it also affect resource drops from kills.

This is what I was thinking also.  

27 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Another pointer is that we don't have a starter "stealth frame". Would be nice to have, say, Ash (who is a stealth frame with all his abilities being silent, the most ninja frame of all and his stats and abilities are well rounded unlike Loki McSquishy)

I strongly considered Ash as my starter frame when I first started.  He lost out to Ivara due to how I knew I would be playing.  Solo.    She also has DAT AZZ!!!  

[(XBOX)TJC569]

So a a while back I had 2 rivens with the do a mission undetected (one solo and one with a hobbled dragon key) and while the challenge was exciting, ultimately it was a more nervewracking experience because as many people have pointed out, the game just lacks mechanics for stealth gameplay.

 

To make this a stealth game involves completely altering the core gameplay at some level. Because right now there isnt a benefit for stealth, but if you go too far it becomes the ONLY option, and then all our run/gun fun is over.

At a minimum, you would likely need to turn the game into a more cover based shooter than a run/gun that Warframe is. After finally finishing my double riven challenge I ended up going and playing Batman Arkham series because I like stealth gameplay, but not how it is presented in WF (mainly Loki or Ash and being invisible. Part of the distaste for the rivens was the all or nothing aspect of it, even in the first Batman Arkham if you were spotted you had a chance to hide and get away. 

Total Aside: DE can we a get a bat themed frame? Or just license Batman from DC? Screw it being a warframe, Batman would fix all the problems space mom left behind. And Bale Batman and Vey Hek could have a bad voice off screaming at Tenno.

Edited May 2, 2018 by (XB1)TJC569

[---UMBRA---]

There is no stealth in a future, because I can delete all map

[Prof.549]

23 hours ago, Tricky5hift said:

Are you one of DE's developers?

No.

23 hours ago, Tricky5hift said:

How do you know that this game's engine is not capable of supporting stealth gameplay?

It's not a secret knowledge.

23 hours ago, Tricky5hift said:

I'm not an expert

Exactly.

23 hours ago, Tricky5hift said:

I don't think its really up to the game's engine

It is.

23 hours ago, Tricky5hift said:

DE has introduced bits and pieces of core stealth mechanics

What we currently have is not a stealth. Not even close.

[DatDarkOne]

6 minutes ago, Prof.549 said:

What we currently have is not a stealth. Not even close.

That's interesting, because I've been successfully doing and using stealth tactics in this very game for just over two years now.  Not just in spy missions, but in Exterminate, Sabotage, Assassination, Rescue, Hive, and Capture missions as well.  

All it takes is having enemy radar, silent weapons, and some patience.  Oh and preferably being in solo mode so no one else ruins anything.  

[Prof.549]

1 hour ago, DatDarkOne said:

That's interesting, because I've been successfully doing and using stealth tactics in this very game for just over two years now.  Not just in spy missions, but in Exterminate, Sabotage, Assassination, Rescue, Hive, and Capture missions as well.  

All it takes is having enemy radar, silent weapons, and some patience.  Oh and preferably being in solo mode so no one else ruins anything.  

I wasn't talking about playstyle. You can even play the economic simulator out of this game. Or turn-based strategy.

[Nazrethim]

hace 13 horas, Prof.549 dijo:

I wasn't talking about playstyle. You can even play the economic simulator out of this game. Or turn-based strategy.

We have basic stealth mechanics, what we need is Stealth-dedicated missions where you can't just run around guns ablazing and just get a slap-on-the-wrist alarm but a mission fail, as well as counters to cloaking in the form of enemies that can detect it and dispell it.

Stealth is a playstyle at it's heart, the point of this thread is to ask DE to give Stealth players a playground where they can put their specialty to good use and be rewarded for it. We have more than enough mass slaughter missions already.

[Prof.549]

2 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

the point of this thread is to ask DE

So, there is no point?

[DatDarkOne]

8 minutes ago, Prof.549 said:

So, there is no point?

Oh ye of little faith.  My fellow Tenno you will never know something if you don't ask and/or request.  DE has been known to look at suggestions and try to add them in.  They've even shown and discussed this in the Devstreams and other streams.  

Edited May 3, 2018 by DatDarkOne