Dear DE, you want to avoid ability spam / AFK-"gameplay" once and for all? Solve the problem at its root: The energy economy.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Nitro747:

He is still trying lol

Obviously you are not anymore. "lol"

[LuckyCharm]

Having pretty much unlimited energy cuts back a whole lot of the "oh man did you see that clutch heal? Omg i love you trinity" sort of play where it feels like using your abilities at the right moment matters and causes the tide to turn in your favor rather than always in your favor with no risk or any real feeling of accomplishment on surviving. Having helped many newbies out before they get energy sources, they seem to have a lot more fun trying to make clutch plays than we do with "hmm enemy hoarde, let me just throw down 12 basilles. That should do for now"

[Nazrethim]

hace 54 minutos, LuckyCharm dijo:

Having pretty much unlimited energy cuts back a whole lot of the "oh man did you see that clutch heal? Omg i love you trinity" sort of play where it feels like using your abilities at the right moment matters and causes the tide to turn in your favor rather than always in your favor with no risk or any real feeling of accomplishment on surviving. Having helped many newbies out before they get energy sources, they seem to have a lot more fun trying to make clutch plays than we do with "hmm enemy hoarde, let me just throw down 12 basilles. That should do for now"

There's also the part most forget about nerfing unlimited energy: DE can finally remove or nerf broken bs enemies designed to counter our relentless spam and start making real challenging content. What kind of challenge can they create if we can permanently disable or oneshot a whole map worth of enemies? the only option is nullifiers, energy leeches, magnetic procs, enemies flat out inmune to damage or CC and bs scaling that devolves the game to oneshots from both sides.

So by nerfing us, DE can finally start nerfing enemies and making interesting challenges.

I kind of miss the old conclave score on gear, and the endurance missions which didn't need ludicrous broken lvl scaling, just add a score cap or equipment limit and call it a day. I fondly remember the release of Tempo Royale stance, which not only had a Conclave score limit so low your only option was to run it with common mods, but also limited players to only use Heavy Blades.

[Hypernaut1]

8 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

 

There's also the part most forget about nerfing unlimited energy: DE can finally remove or nerf broken bs enemies designed to counter our relentless spam and start making real challenging content. What kind of challenge can they create if we can permanently disable or oneshot a whole map worth of enemies? the only option is nullifiers, energy leeches, magnetic procs, enemies flat out inmune to damage or CC and bs scaling that devolves the game to oneshots from both sides.

So by nerfing us, DE can finally start nerfing enemies and making interesting challenges.

I kind of miss the old conclave score on gear, and the endurance missions which didn't need ludicrous broken lvl scaling, just add a score cap or equipment limit and call it a day. I fondly remember the release of Tempo Royale stance, which not only had a Conclave score limit so low your only option was to run it with common mods, but also limited players to only use Heavy Blades.

what? Enemies are EASY in this game...why would they need to be nerfed further?

[Checht]

11 hours ago, peterc3 said:

14 hours ago, Trichouette said:

I still think the game would be better with no energy and short cooldown.

This is fundamentally at odds with the developers, so not likely ever to happen.

14 hours ago, sixmille said:

Energy needs to be more scarce but that's going to be hard to do now that DE added consumables, zenurik and warframes providing infinite energy (don't forget harrow). DE will (reluctantly) have to add cooldowns to ults one day, because we now have infinite energy in practice. It's not an economy if it's so abundant that there is no need to manage it.

There are no ults. This is not a MOBA. DE doesn't have to do anything, least of all do the thing they explicitly rejected before.

DE is pretty much already experimenting with cooldowns in Elite Sanctuary Onslaught. Based on player response so far, it seemed to be welcomed more than it is despised. Players are actually glad that they don't encounter 4-spam Banshee in ESO, and refer other players to play ESO and not regular SO if they wanna avoid 4-spamming Banshees.

Also, DE does refer to 4th abilities as ultimate abilities (be it intentional or not).

"An overuse of Warframe abilities can skew Simaris’ data. You may find he has different tolerance levels against ultimates than first abilities. You may never even encounter this rule, but if you do, know that it is only temporary."

[----Fenrir----]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb (XB1)Young Boy HT:

 

I mean... you could argue his survivability comes from his 2. After all, it makes him invincible and replenishes his health at a rapid rate.

No, it really doesn't. It's his giant HP pool and the synergy with "Rage" and the similar Hunter mod it brings. All Inaros needs is Rage + a melee weapon with Life Strike and he is basically unkillable until enemies are well past lvl 100. That's why he is the best choice for energy drain nightmare missions (Valkyr being second best).

[Somb3rBivalve]

5 hours ago, LuckyCharm said:

Having pretty much unlimited energy cuts back a whole lot of the "oh man did you see that clutch heal? Omg i love you trinity" sort of play where it feels like using your abilities at the right moment matters and causes the tide to turn in your favor rather than always in your favor with no risk or any real feeling of accomplishment on surviving. Having helped many newbies out before they get energy sources, they seem to have a lot more fun trying to make clutch plays than we do with "hmm enemy hoarde, let me just throw down 12 basilles. That should do for now"

Yeah in particular that would help out vauban a lot. Right now with EV and zenurik, it's just: spam bastille and vortex everywhere and don't worry about the particulars.

If energy was properly balanced then he would have more interesting choices about where to use his powers. Like maybe he would place a bastille in an open area and then a vortex in a chokepoint and then a trip wire in a less relevent chokepoint, which is more interesting and nuanced (and it would clog up the screen much less than a dozen bastille cages).

[Somb3rBivalve]

4 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

what? Enemies are EASY in this game...why would they need to be nerfed further?

I think he wants DE to nerf enemies because they are unfair, not because they are necessarily hard (with the right gear/team comp)

Like napalms have a ludicrous blast radious that extends beyond what the napalm blast would infer. That's unfair.

[Trichouette]

Il y a 6 heures, Checht a dit :

DE is pretty much already experimenting with cooldowns in Elite Sanctuary Onslaught. Based on player response so far, it seemed to be welcomed more than it is despised. Players are actually glad that they don't encounter 4-spam Banshee in ESO, and refer other players to play ESO and not regular SO if they wanna avoid 4-spamming Banshees.

Also, DE does refer to 4th abilities as ultimate abilities (be it intentional or not).

"An overuse of Warframe abilities can skew Simaris’ data. You may find he has different tolerance levels against ultimates than first abilities. You may never even encounter this rule, but if you do, know that it is only temporary."

The thing is, by adding cooldown to ultimates only, you just change the kind of frame used.

Instead of having "press 4 to win" banshee, you get "press 1 to win" saryn.

But my suggestion would rather be "remove energy completely and use short cooldowns instead"

[Nazrethim]

hace 10 horas, Hypernaut1 dijo:

what? Enemies are EASY in this game...why would they need to be nerfed further?

They are easy because we can just spam spam spam spam spam. If you remove the spam by nerfing energy gains at higher players (but buffing it at lower players) they will have to nerf those enemies.

 

hace 5 horas, Somb3rBivalve dijo:

I think he wants DE to nerf enemies because they are unfair, not because they are necessarily hard (with the right gear/team comp)

Like napalms have a ludicrous blast radious that extends beyond what the napalm blast would infer. That's unfair.

Exactly. Just look at the examples I gave.

[Nitro747]

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

They are easy because we can just spam spam spam spam spam. If you remove the spam by nerfing energy gains at higher players (but buffing it at lower players) they will have to nerf those enemies.

 

Exactly. Just look at the examples I gave.

Good luck just with your "spam spam spam" resonating quake, miasma, or any other "ult" in a lvl 80 bombard, I'm 100% sure you'll kill the whole room in no time

Edited May 13, 2018 by Nitro747

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb LuckyCharm:

Having pretty much unlimited energy cuts back a whole lot of the "oh man did you see that clutch heal? Omg i love you trinity" sort of play where it feels like using your abilities at the right moment matters and causes the tide to turn in your favor rather than always in your favor with no risk or any real feeling of accomplishment on surviving. Having helped many newbies out before they get energy sources, they seem to have a lot more fun trying to make clutch plays than we do with "hmm enemy hoarde, let me just throw down 12 basilles. That should do for now"

Very good point, more stategic ability use will elevate cooperation to new hights fo sho.

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Trichouette:

The thing is, by adding cooldown to ultimates only, you just change the kind of frame used.

Instead of having "press 4 to win" banshee, you get "press 1 to win" saryn.

But my suggestion would rather be "remove energy completely and use short cooldowns instead"

Yeah another prime example like the one with Atlas from earlier. Well the effectiveness of such abilities would still need to be re-evaluated, i still think more flexible costs like i proposed might be one plausible way to do so.

interesting page, thanks @ anyone involved 😉

vor einer Stunde schrieb Nitro747:

Good luck just with your "spam spam spam" resonating quake, miasma, or any other "ult" in a lvl 80 bombard, I'm 100% sure you'll kill the whole room in no time

Some would indeed accomplish that quite easily, Bladestorm (not to mention Teleport with Covert Lethality) and Peacemaker for example. Also spamming CC skills like Bastille permanently disables them like any other unit.

[Checht]

1 hour ago, Nitro747 said:

Good luck just with your "spam spam spam" resonating quake, miasma, or any other "ult" in a lvl 80 bombard, I'm 100% sure you'll kill the whole room in no time

Nice cherry-picking of skills there. Let me give you some skills that you can spam to scale up to any levels then. Bastille, Radial Blind, Avalanche, Discharge (modded for efficiency, duration and range), any invisibility skills. They may not "clear" the whole room, but they neutralize the whole room easily. What's left to do is just shooting at brain-dead stationary enemies.

[Waffenheimer]

the root of AFK gameplay has nothing to do with the "energy economy"

it has to do with the arbitrary limit of the "affinity share range"

DE why do you design massive levels and then punish people for splitting up to cover more area?

(also the way nekros/hydroid work are #1 issues to this problem)

people don't like having to be confined to such a small space when frames can grow to such great power... it's "not fun".  so they devise afk strategies to get the most efficiency out of it.

plain and simple.

Edited May 13, 2018 by Waffenheimer

[Dr.Wuzzah]

1 hour ago, Checht said:

Nice cherry-picking of skills there. Let me give you some skills that you can spam to scale up to any levels then. Bastille, Radial Blind, Avalanche, Discharge (modded for efficiency, duration and range), any invisibility skills. They may not "clear" the whole room, but they neutralize the whole room easily. What's left to do is just shooting at brain-dead stationary enemies.

Oh look it's Mr. Thanos again.

Also here's a reddit post with a whole bunch of ppl who think the exact opposite way about energy:

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/8ix41f/give_frames_base_energy_regeneration/

Ya... two extremes, who would've thought?

[Checht]

2 minutes ago, Dr.Wuzzah said:

Oh look it's Mr. Thanos again.

Also here's a reddit post with a whole bunch of ppl who think the exact opposite way about energy:

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/8ix41f/give_frames_base_energy_regeneration/

Ya... two extremes, who would've thought?

I don't see the contradiction or the "extremes" on the post that you've linked here. The poster is just asking for base energy regen for frames. The poster did not imply that the current energy regen is insufficient.

The idea is probably to make Zenurik not necessarily the mandatory Focus school choice, or players feel that having to go into operator mode every 30 seconds is a chore.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 53 Minuten schrieb Checht:

I don't see the contradiction or the "extremes" on the post that you've linked here. The poster is just asking for base energy regen for frames. The poster did not imply that the current energy regen is insufficient.

The idea is probably to make Zenurik not necessarily the mandatory Focus school choice, or players feel that having to go into operator mode every 30 seconds is a chore.

Yeah um like... i actually proposed the very same in my OP:

Am 12.5.2018 um 16:07 schrieb Kotsender_Quasimir:

That leaves Zenurik... Yes this would make this focus school even more mandatory than it is already.
My suggestion is a built-in energy regeneration for ALL frames and also changing efficiency mods to regen boost mods.

Edited May 13, 2018 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Waffenheimer:

the root of AFK gameplay has nothing to do with the "energy economy"

it has to do with the arbitrary limit of the "affinity share range"

DE why do you design massive levels and then punish people for splitting up to cover more area?

(also the way nekros/hydroid work are #1 issues to this problem)

people don't like having to be confined to such a small space when frames can grow to such great power... it's "not fun".  so they devise afk strategies to get the most efficiency out of it.

plain and simple.

That's certainly a special take on things... Can't agree unfortunately.

People spam and AFK because they can. Plain and simple.

[Waffenheimer]

you don't have to "agree" with the emergence of the camping 1 room meta.

it's a fact.

thrilling gameplay.

[Dr.Wuzzah]

Ok so @Kotsender_Quasimir, efficiency mods changed to base energy regen and energy siphon being naturally implemented. My bad, thats actually better than what i thought you were trying to say. Probably should have a tldr. Although i will say that there are still some who believe that there should be less energy etc etc which is why pushing for a rework like this is difficult. I like it though.

Nice change of pace that someone is trying to actually rework something rather than just pushing for a buff or nerf.

Edited May 13, 2018 by Dr.Wuzzah

[Somb3rBivalve]

7 hours ago, Checht said:

I don't see the contradiction or the "extremes" on the post that you've linked here. The poster is just asking for base energy regen for frames. The poster did not imply that the current energy regen is insufficient.

The idea is probably to make Zenurik not necessarily the mandatory Focus school choice, or players feel that having to go into operator mode every 30 seconds is a chore.

On that note, I would hope that any rework of zenurik would make it less boring. I normally use unairu, and in that school there are certain situations when you want to use your skills, and it doesn't have any brainless abilities like energizing dash in zenurik. There are certain situations when I would want a bullet attractor or an armor debuff on an enemy and others where it would be easier to mow them down directly. However, energy is always useful because warframes are so powerful so I always have a reason to keep energizing dash going to get more energy. As a result, using energizing dash feels like I'm keeping up a timer rather than reacting to a situation.

Because energy is so valuable, I feel that it would be better for energizing dash to give something else that would be useful (but not all the time). Perhaps a speed buff would work, which might work nicely with the speed debuff zenurik has on its void blast.

[taiiat]

A - Trinity currently relies on Energy Vampire to be a useful Warframe. without producing Energy for herself (regardless of other Warframes), Trinity is useless. the only merits Trinity has, is that she can Resist an extreme amount of Damage, never die, Et Cetera. and that relies on being able to use the Abilities, forever.
that's literally all Trinity does. that's the resulting Theme of the Warframe - the steadfast column of the Squad, always there, always safe.

B - Abilities being designed in Tiers vs 4+ Tools is more of a problem than Energy availability is. Abilities just being better than each other means the others don't get used because it's worse. the solution isn't to prevent you using some of your Abilities.
having """ults""" IS the problem in the first place. just like XP bars and other holdovers from decades ago - just because it's standard doesn't mean it makes games better.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Dr.Wuzzah:

Ok so @Kotsender_Quasimir, efficiency mods changed to base energy regen and energy siphon being naturally implemented. My bad, thats actually better than what i thought you were trying to say. Probably should have a tldr. Although i will say that there are still some who believe that there should be less energy etc etc which is why pushing for a rework like this is difficult. I like it though.

Nice change of pace that someone is trying to actually rework something rather than just pushing for a buff or nerf.

Thanks for reading and the nice words ;).

Note though that my idea is to make energy more reliable (as in: less dependant on rng in form of energy orbs) yet still scarcer overall.

vor 19 Stunden schrieb Checht:

DE is pretty much already experimenting with cooldowns in Elite Sanctuary Onslaught.

Yes, might indeed be a sign DE is trying out the idea and fishing for resonance in a lab space so to speak, which for the moment doesn't affect the rest of the game to dampen the impact.

I for one enjoy elite onslaught a gazillion times more than the regular one for that reason 🙂

Edited May 14, 2018 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[Nitro747]

13 hours ago, Checht said:

Nice cherry-picking of skills there. Let me give you some skills that you can spam to scale up to any levels then. Bastille, Radial Blind, Avalanche, Discharge (modded for efficiency, duration and range), any invisibility skills. They may not "clear" the whole room, but they neutralize the whole room easily. What's left to do is just shooting at brain-dead stationary enemies.

You are comparing crowd control with damage dealing abilities? Really? Its a damn horde game with enemies literally coming from the floor. Bastilles ain't gonna save you from a Bombard rocket one-shotting you at lvl 80, same goes to every other ability you mentioned. It doesn't even look like you guys play this game seriously.

[Checht]

11 minutes ago, Nitro747 said:

You are comparing crowd control with damage dealing abilities? Really? Its a damn horde game with enemies literally coming from the floor. Bastilles ain't gonna save you from a Bombard rocket one-shotting you at lvl 80, same goes to every other ability you mentioned. It doesn't even look like you guys play this game seriously.

Did we limit ourselves to damage dealing abilities in the discussion here? The point is being able to spam certain abilities make the enemies and the game too easy. Mass AoE hard-CC abilities are such abilities.

All the CC abilities (not to mention invis abilities too) do save you from getting one-shotted by Bombard. How are you dying if the Bombard isn't even shooting at you? Spam Bastilles and cover the whole room, problem solved. Or are you saying you somehow still manage to have difficulties facing a level 80 Bombard even with all these CC abilities available to be spammed? I would like to hear more about it then.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Checht