Elite Sanctuary mode was a good idea but has serious issues that need addressed plus buffs & nerfs

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

On 2018-05-16 at 5:48 AM, (PS4)TONI__RIBEIRO said:

On console there is an issue with spawn rate, on kuva fortress and corpus tiles we're getting just 20% of enemies compared to PC,  we still get it done but is WAY harder than PC 

How were you able to determine that we are getting 20%?

My comparison was closer to 50%, but it was based on EOM results from 2 similar runs (to wave 9) from PC and XB1.

[(PSN)TONI__RIBEIRO]

2 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

How were you able to determine that we are getting 20%?

My comparison was closer to 50%, but it was based on EOM results from 2 similar runs (to wave 9) from PC and XB1.

Dramatic effect 🤣

Edited May 17, 2018 by (PS4)TONI__RIBEIRO

[TalonBlue]

On 2018-05-16 at 5:05 AM, Klokwerkaos said:

I disagree with this strongly.

The game mode is fun, and is my favorite way to farm focus as well.  There are probably things on console that need to be squared away still.  It's been on PC a while now and it's still buggy here.  It's not a failure, though.  You just don't like it, and that's fine, you aren't required to.

You know why people play this mode? Not because it is fun. Because it is the most efficient...(Oh and DE, I'm going to be throwing that phrase at you every chance I get, you guys opened the door with Sanctuary mode preaching efficiency.)

Where was I? Oh. The most efficient, EASY way to gain XP.Two runs to round 8 and you've got a level 30 weapon.

This mode completely negates the star chart in terms on XP. Maybe even focus... hard to say at this point if it is more efficient than Adaro.

And lets be fair. There isn't anything original about this mode. There's nothing creative about it. It is a ramped up survival mode, nothing more. And the sad part is that this is only going to ENCOURAGE more Maiming Strike use, and Saryn, and Equinox and all the AoE room clearing stuff that DE doesn't like!

You honestly believe that this was a success?!?

[(PSN)Zero_029]

The mode is a take on Diablo 3 Rifts if you ask me.

So...why fix what wasn't broken.

This mode should play like a rift.

IMPO this means the efficiency mechanics needs to go. Should simply require some drop that opens the rift *ahem* I mean...portal...to the next round.

Let players fight these hordes, earn loot, move on.

This mode's fun is destroyed by the efficiency mechanic & enemy scaling.

Edit:

I don't dislike the mode. I just don't find it to be fun. Like Interception or Defense missions...it "exists" & that's it for me.

Edited May 19, 2018 by (PS4)Zero_029

[(PSN)dA_BLoK_iS_hOt]

On 2018-05-15 at 9:02 AM, (PS4)ChiefsFury1984 said:

DE can you please Buff the drop rate of the Braton and Lato Vandel Parts & remove all parts from Rotation C of the elite Sanctuary.. 

 

I've been running this since it's come out on ps4 however not once has the squad I've been in made to to rotation C simply put the efficiency drops way to fast & either 1 or 2 people leave with rage quit cuz they die or they lose connection. 

 

I'm always the one who seems to never die + I carry high damege weapons & have crossive projection on & while I can pull enemies pretty quick it still doesn't matter..

 

I'm ready fed up because #1 the enemies are to Overpowered & should be nerfed but I feel as this game nice while it a nice concept is rigged..

 

#2 people going overboard on prices for the parts I mean seriously it's bad enough knowing I can go deep but squad mates can't 

I really want to get these & the new mod but I refuse to be taken advantage of by platinum hungery children looking for an arm and a leg for those pieces 

 

Is there anyone still playing on ps4 that has gone multiple times to rotation C 

 

If so can you help me or even give me tips on the quickest way to kill.these power creep enemies? What the best setup to achieve this goal thanks to all who can assist or help.

I have but Sanctuary Onslaught is legit, a waste of time. Time that can be spent cleaning my house, washing some dishes. Clothes. Cooking. Binging on Tv shows. Going shopping. Working. Etc etc. This is by far the only game mode I've played on Warframe that actually feels like a waste of time. Having Run Sanctuary Onslaught for 3-4 hrs. Then looking back at the rewards you get. Just a few radiant relics and that is it. 3-4 hrs of real life time wasted lmfao. Im done with that game mode and Warframe too for now. 5800 hrs played. Endless Kuva is mediocre. Eidolons got boring after defeating Hydro over 150 times. Theres just nothing to do anymore. Was hoping that Sanctuary Onslaught would be something interesting but nope. 

[Forblaze]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)dA_BLoK_iS_hOt said:

I have but Sanctuary Onslaught is legit, a waste of time. Time that can be spent cleaning my house, washing some dishes. Clothes. Cooking. Binging on Tv shows. Going shopping. Working. Etc etc. This is by far the only game mode I've played on Warframe that actually feels like a waste of time. Having Run Sanctuary Onslaught for 3-4 hrs. Then looking back at the rewards you get. Just a few radiant relics and that is it. 3-4 hrs of real life time wasted lmfao. Im done with that game mode and Warframe too for now. 5800 hrs played. Endless Kuva is mediocre. Eidolons got boring after defeating Hydro over 150 times. Theres just nothing to do anymore. Was hoping that Sanctuary Onslaught would be something interesting but nope. 

 

As opposed to other game modes, with those lucrative serration and 2000 credit drops.

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, (PS4)dA_BLoK_iS_hOt said:

Eidolons got boring after defeating Hydro over 150 times. Theres just nothing to do anymore. Was hoping that Sanctuary Onslaught would be something interesting but nope. 

....I don't think the game is the problem here.....

[rune_me]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

The mode is a take on Diablo 3 Rifts if you ask me.

So...why fix what wasn't broken.

This mode should play like a rift.

IMPO this means the efficiency mechanics needs to go. Should simply require some drop that opens the rift *ahem* I mean...portal...to the next round.

But ... there's a timer in Diablo 3 rifts as well. You need to pick up enough of the orbs, before the timer runs out. It's pretty much the exact same concept as efficiency. You need to kill enough enemies against the clock. Granted, not in regular rifts, but in greater rifts there are.

[(PSN)Toycammander666]

I've about farmed enough for two whole vandal sets(A ton) and i can tell you that all it takes is two decent dps and you'll be fine just bounce and requeue that's what i do when i'm pugging this and you'll eventually find that nuke trin/equinox/saryn(Me) that will carry you good players are pugging just need to win the slot machine matchmaking game and not get paired with just cc frames and loki ugh.

Edited May 19, 2018 by (PS4)Toycammander666

[(PSN)Zero_029]

2 hours ago, rune_me said:

But ... there's a timer in Diablo 3 rifts as well. You need to pick up enough of the orbs, before the timer runs out. It's pretty much the exact same concept as efficiency. You need to kill enough enemies against the clock. Granted, not in regular rifts, but in greater rifts there are.

Is there?!

I seriously never noticed it.

[rune_me]

Just now, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

Is there?!

I seriously never noticed it.

Yeah it works a little different. In Diablo rifts the timer is always 15 minute and you need to fill the progress bar before the timer runs out by killing enemies. As the difficulty increases, enemy levels becomes higher and they take longer and longer to kill because they get more and more health, so it becomes increasingly more difficult to beat the timer.

This is all based on the last time I played the game, which granted is a long time ago. But I doubt they changed that aspect, since it was a core concept of Greater Rifts that you had to be constantly killing enemies to keep up at higher difficulties.

[(PSN)Zero_029]

2 hours ago, rune_me said:

Yeah it works a little different. In Diablo rifts the timer is always 15 minute and you need to fill the progress bar before the timer runs out by killing enemies. As the difficulty increases, enemy levels becomes higher and they take longer and longer to kill because they get more and more health, so it becomes increasingly more difficult to beat the timer.

This is all based on the last time I played the game, which granted is a long time ago. But I doubt they changed that aspect, since it was a core concept of Greater Rifts that you had to be constantly killing enemies to keep up at higher difficulties.

I guess the way the rifts are designed made it to where I never noticed.

Those rifts were just downright fun.

[(PSN)AllOrNothinDays]

Pretty much the only way I know I'll make it to rotation c is if I have a sancti castanas trinity on my squad but I only play pug matches. You can tell from the first rotatin if you will make it to c or not and because of this I'm usually bailing as soon as I see the frames involved when I jump in or I ee they're unable to keep the efficiency up. 

 

75% of the time that I have made it to the final rotation and failed had absolutely nothing to do with not being able to kill the enemy and have everything to do with the kuva defense map being garbage and almost barren at times. Can't keep the efficiency up if there's nothing out there to really kill and worst case scenario is the nerf trinity/castanas and do nothing about that map in particular and while the kuva defense map is number 1 with this problem, there are a few others where you can expect efficiency to go down because of how the area is spread out and that needs to be dealt with. 

 

Then there's the drop tables but yeah. I think this mod is garbage and a waste of my time as aside from relics I'm not even gaining raw materials/mods on the side for all this hardcore grinding I'm doing. 

[Klokwerkaos]

17 hours ago, TalonBlue said:

You know why people play this mode? Not because it is fun. Because it is the most efficient...(Oh and DE, I'm going to be throwing that phrase at you every chance I get, you guys opened the door with Sanctuary mode preaching efficiency.)

For some people "fun" is getting to new achievements in the game more quickly.  That is a valid use of the word "fun" since the term is subjective by design.

17 hours ago, TalonBlue said:

Where was I? Oh. The most efficient, EASY way to gain XP.Two runs to round 8 and you've got a level 30 weapon.

My experience tells me Hydron, Sedna is the fastest way to level a weapon.  Level 30 is achieved quicker on a weapon there than in 2 sets of 8 rounds. (30 min vs 40 min) that's a full 25% faster.  ESO flat out IS NOT the most efficient way to level a weapon and bringing an unlevelled frame even with a reactor and MR 25 is virtually suicide.

Additionally I don't have to level weapons, but lets say i want to forma something, I'm still going to hydron for multiple reasons even though the rewards in ESO are better.

If Hydron is better for levelling efficiency, it seems to reason then, if someone goes to ESO to level a weapon, they probably just prefer it to Hydron.

17 hours ago, TalonBlue said:

This mode completely negates the star chart in terms on XP. Maybe even focus... hard to say at this point if it is more efficient than Adaro.

For focus Adaro as tested by me, is more efficient, again, substantially so (though I can't give hard numbers here like I can with Hydron, because there is a lot of variablity here, but ultimately it's significantly better on Adaro still).  I simply prefer running ESO because it's more engaging for me personally and I enjoy that, and the other rewards don't sway me since I don't need to level weapons and haven't run any of the hundred or so radiant relics I've gotten, and I already have the captura scenes and weapons, so to continue to run it when it is a less efficient option for me seems to reasonably conclude because it is my preference based on how I define fun.  You are free to disagree that it is not fun for you, but you are not free to assert that the only reason anyone plays it is for efficiency as that is a false premise.  Additionally, Adaro is not the most efficient method for focus farming, that's actually Tridolon because of the lack of daily cap (and with the right group you can do 4 runs per night)

17 hours ago, TalonBlue said:

And lets be fair. There isn't anything original about this mode. There's nothing creative about it. It is a ramped up survival mode, nothing more. And the sad part is that this is only going to ENCOURAGE more Maiming Strike use, and Saryn, and Equinox and all the AoE room clearing stuff that DE doesn't like!

I like killing lots of enemies with AoE clear frames.  It makes me feel like a more powerful tenno and that's FUN for me.  Even so, I'm not OK with the arguments of "nerf everything!" mainly because A) I like those frames and B) EVERY frame can cheese the game if built right simply on abilities alone and not taking specific weapon synergies into affect.  Consider the basic biznatch frame, Excal, who can cheese like a mofo by spamming exalted blade... but maybe he's not basic enough... what about Rhino who completely negates any challenge in Index by being able to carry infinite points?  All frames can cheese by their design.  All frames are powerful.   What is important then, as a player, is investing in many frames and builds if you want to cheese everything and then selecting the right tool for the right job.  Additionally this makes the best business sense for DE since more things to invest in for greater viability means more plat sales per player and more in game activity.

I think the main gripe a lot of people have with ESO is that they are now forced to work side by side with players that traditionally ran endless survival for fun, min/maxed all the builds and can destroy all the game's content while half asleep, but this isn't a specific frame (and pay ATTENTION HERE DE), it's a specific player.  They don't like that player, not that frame.  The type that can and has invested significantly to be able to have god tier rivens on a dozen or more weapons, that has multiple versions of frames to support lots of different load outs and builds... it makes sense that people with 200 hours should not be comparing themselves to players with 1000+ hours, but they are because now they are confronted with those players, and they are mad they aren't that powerful and would prefer instead of putting in the work themselves like those players did, that they instead get an instant promotion to bad ass while those players get a slap in the face for investing so much into the game, community and of course, DE's wallet.  To say that those players have valid complaints on that reasononing alone though, is something I wholeheartedly disagree with.  If you want bland where everyone is the same, go play Destiny 2.  Hint:  It sucks.

Further, if you don't like someone's playstyle you can A) play solo, B) put your own groups together in alliance and recruiting chats for like minded players, C) just deal with it and recognize that "well I guess this will be an easy run because there is an OG in the group, I'll just collect the loot I suppose" (grin and bear it) or D) cry all over the internet using mob mentality and shout for nerfs without thinking of the long term consequences.  What you can't do, is expect me to take you seriously if you choose option D and argue from ignorance.

My first fix would be to raise the MR requirement for ESO to MR 20, period end of story.  That would fix a lot of the MR 8's running in there screaming how it's so unfair that their maiming atterax doesn't make them top the damage charts anymore, and therefore, equinox obviously needs a nerf.

Additionally I think it's perfectly reasonable that long term players should see higher level content that requires more complex, new and different strategies than they would use at MR 5 running around with an excal and braton.  They should also, be reasonably rewarded for their investment in the form of tangible reward.  To me that's logical.  Most of the hate I think comes from people just not wanting or being ready to adapt to the new game mode.  Additionally, you are free not to like it, just as some people are free not to like archwing.  I myself though, as someone who has decimated all the content in the game since I started, appreciate different game modes for giving me different things to do.  I hated fishing at first, and archwing.  I grew to love them over time because it's something different to do, and variety is necessary in grindframe.

I for one thing, think that DE is shooting themselves in the foot when they invalidate a frame like they did with ember.  Less so with Saryn.  Saryn is still an AoE clear frame, and that's good, she's just a more active one, which is probably more fun in the long run once we all adjust.  I think it's fine that volt and octavia and nova and equinox and trinity can all nuke as well (after you significantly invest in the frame, forma, arcanes, weapons, augments and rivens).  What I would like to see is not that those methods of play go away, but that they be a little better balanced so that frames aren't entirely useless otherwise... for example, you don't bring ash to ESO unless you're an idiot, but why can't we?  Here's a good test... can a group of 4 vets make it to round 8 (without maiming atterax) with 4 Ash frames?  I honestly don't know.  If not that's something to look at Ash about.  One of my big complaints about Eidolon hunts isn't that there is a clearly established meta (because there will always be one and if you squash one another will appear), but rather, that so many frames have NO PLACE AT ALL there.  Can you bring Nidus to a tridolon?  I guess.  It's a clearly BAD idea though and you'd be hurting more than helping.  On the other hand, when it comes to say, Plaguestar, while there is a clearly established meta, there are also tons of frames that ARE still viable there, so you can still bring your ash if you want to, and I think that's a strength.

17 hours ago, TalonBlue said:

You honestly believe that this was a success?!?

I do.  I believe your arguments as presented are grounded in opinion, hyperbole and false premise, not facts and rationale. 

 

Edited May 20, 2018 by Klokwerkaos

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

1 hour ago, Klokwerkaos said:

For some people "fun" is getting to new achievements in the game more quickly.  That is a valid use of the word "fun" since the term is subjective by design.[/quote]

You are right about the term being subjective but I think we can also say that for people who finished it once it isn't a new achievement. 

Quote

My experience tells me Hydron, Sedna is the fastest way to level a weapon.  Level 30 is achieved quicker on a weapon there than in 2 sets of 8 rounds. (30 min vs 40 min) that's a full 25% faster.  ESO flat out IS NOT the most efficient way to level a weapon and bringing an unlevelled frame even with a reactor and MR 25 is virtually suicide.[/quote]

SO is the fastest. I have been using it since it came out. 1 single 8 round run and your weapon will be max rank at around level 7 depending on the tile sets. A warframe takes longer and needs to go to round 9 or 12 to be mostly fully levelled. So for many people that would take two runs. 

ESO requires a level 30 frame. And I agree that it is not really the best place to level weapons. While it can be done it it limits the frames on which you can pull it off. 

 

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Additionally I don't have to level weapons, but lets say i want to forma something, I'm still going to hydron for multiple reasons even though the rewards in ESO are better.

If Hydron is better for levelling efficiency, it seems to reason then, if someone goes to ESO to level a weapon, they probably just prefer it to Hydron. [/quote]

Not really. While there sure is debate about ESO for levelling and I mostly think you are right...

SO is downright more efficient that Hydron by a mile. Not to mention the fact that Hydron is populated by people who will leave after wave 10 or 15...and always seems to have that 1 person leaving after 5...cutting down even further into the efficiency gain. 

 

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For focus Adaro as tested by me, is more efficient, again, substantially so.  I simply prefer running ESO because it's more engaging for me personally and I enjoy that, and the other rewards don't sway me since I don't need to level weapons and haven't run any of the hundred or so radiant relics I've gotten, and I already have the captura scenes and weapons, so to continue to run it when it is a less efficient option for me seems to reasonably conclude because it is my preference based on how I define fun.  You are free to disagree that it is not fun for you, but you are not free to assert that the only reason anyone plays it is for efficiency as that is a false premise.[/quote]

I can't say anything about Adaro I haven't tested it lately. 

But let me just add that I am very underwhelmed by E/SO. 

ESO downright sucks compared to even Hydron with a cheese build. While SO is only really lucrative with a full cheese build. Play a normal frame and the gains are only slightly better than Hydron. 

So I tend to agree here.

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I think the main gripe a lot of people have with ESO is that they are now forced to work side by side with players that traditionally ran endless survival for fun, min/maxed all the builds and can destroy all the game's content while half asleep, but this isn't a specific frame, it's a specific player. [/quote]

I think the problem is that the mode isn't suited for most frames and pushes a very specific meta with vey specific cheese tactics and even then is near impossible for the average player to get to round 8 in SO and nearly so for even the experiences players in ESO

The game mode isn't considered fun because people are not fighting skill but fighting an artificial arbitrary timer dependent on the rng of tile sets and luck with spawns. 

And this is where it becomes really, really important to understand that the people in this thread who predominantly say E/SO sucks are coming from console. 

Because we have empty tile sets. Where we have to spend tens of seconds just looking for enemies or where the spawn rate is reduced to a mere trickle while the timer plummets. When you finally do find enemies they spawn in very small groups. I am even going so far as to say that less enemies spawn in E/SO than in normal missions. 

On top of that....the enemies in E/SO are or at the very least give the very real suspicion that they are stronger than the same level enemies outside of it. 

While in SO a few cheese builds can potentially carry a team to round 8 IF the spawns are lucky.....in ESO a full stack of optimized builds has difficulty to get to round 8 and do it consistently. Because you can't kill what isn't there. 

Unlike endless missions where I have  no problem facing level 150 enemies with a team of 2....and I am fighting my builds, skill and team strategy....the game doesn't stop because your timer runs out or you get unlucky with spawns. It ends because you can't cope. E/SO ends because there are no enemies spawning or you got a very unlucky tile set that drop your efficiency from 90 to 20 before you make it to the next tile where....predictively...spawns are not enough to recover. 

 

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The type that can and has invested significantly to be able to have god tier rivens on a dozen or more weapons, that has multiple versions of frames to support lots of different load outs and builds... it makes sense that people with 200 hours should not be comparing themselves to players with 1000+ hours, but they are because now they are confronted with those players, and they are mad they aren't that powerful and would prefer instead of putting in the work themselves like those players did, that they instead get an instant promotion to bad ass while those players get a slap in the face for investing so much into the game, community and of course, DE's wallet.  To say that those players have valid complaints on that reasononing alone though, is something I wholeheartedly disagree with. [/quote]

I have +1000 hours. Multiple very strong builds. All the frames. Over 30 fully forma'd weapons to choose from. Am MR 23. I do 100 minute survival runs no sweat. 

And I can't get to level 8 in ESO consistently because there is nothing to kill and I have to literally spend tens of second running around maps to even find a handful. 

And while I can not judge PC play too well...these players when they come from console have a very, very strong case. 

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  If you want bland where everyone is the same, go play Destiny 2.  Hint:  It sucks.[/quote]

Yes it does....but ironically their new wave mode which is the closest thing that compares to E/SO, while still "meh", is bearing this mode hands down. 

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Additionally I think it's perfectly reasonable that long term players should see higher level content that requires more complex, new and different strategies than they would use at MR 5 running around with an excal and braton.  They should also, be reasonably rewarded for their investment in the form of tangible reward.  To me that's logical.  Most of the hate I think comes from people just not wanting or being ready to adapt to the new game mode. [/quote]

Ironically.....most of the hate comes from people who already have those builds and who already play endless missions as par for the course. 

For the average player it is worse....

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 Additionally, you are free not to like it, just as some people are free not to like archwing.  I myself though, as someone who has decimated all the content in the game since I started, appreciate different game modes for giving me different things to do.  I hated fishing at first, and archwing.  I grew to love them over time. [/quote]

True. You are absolutely right. But I think when a mode generates so much resistance on essentially the same points by such a large number of people it is the mode....and not the people. 

I also love Archwing....but the mode is honestly terrible and needs a lot of love to reach its full potential. Right now I get why people who like archwing are a tiny minority. 

 

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I for one thing DE is shooting themselves in the foot when they invalidate a frame like they did with ember.  Less so with Saryn.  Saryn is still an AoE clear frame, and that's good, she's just a more active one, which is probably more fun in the long run once we all adjust.  I think it's fine that volt and octavia and nova and trinity can all nuke as well.  What I would like to see is not that those methods of play go away, but that they be a little better balanced so that frames aren't entirely useless otherwise... for example, you don't bring ash to ESO unless you're an idiot, but why can't we?  [/QUOTE]

I absolutely agree with you on this and it is well said. 

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Here's a good test... can a group of 4 vets make it to round 8 with 4 Ash frames?  If not that's something to look at Ash about.  [/quote]

Right now, on console, vets are struggling to get to round 8 consistently with meta frames for that mode. 

Which is why you will generally see ps4 players get more upset over cries for nerfs than none ps4 players. 

The game played a lot different on ps4 than it does on PC.

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One of my big complaints about Eidolon hunts isn't that there is a clearly established meta (because there will always be one and if you squash one another will appear), but rather, that so many frames have NO PLACE AT ALL there.  Can you bring Nidus to a tridolon?  I guess.  It's a clearly BAD idea though and you'd be hurting more than helping.  On the other hand, when it comes to say, Plaguestar, while there is a clearly established meta, there are also tons of frames that ARE still viable there, so you can still bring your ash if you want to, and I think that's a strength.[/quote]

I fully agree.

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I do.  I believe your arguments as presented are grounded in opinion, hyperbole and false premise, not facts and rationale. 

No....he is really basing his opinion on how the mode currently is on console. It is a world of difference. 

I may not agree with their proposed solutions although it does appear that PC has had a patch that do incorporate all of the gripes OP offers even before BotS went to CERT. 

But right now...E/SO's only real appeal is that it is a new thing to do. 

Edited May 20, 2018 by (PS4)BOSS_TPH76

[Klokwerkaos]

46 minutes ago, (PS4)BOSS_TPH76 said:

I think the problem is that the mode isn't suited for most frames and pushes a very specific meta with vey specific cheese tactics and even then is near impossible for the average player to get to round 8 in SO and nearly so for even the experiences players in ESO

I think the ESO has the word Elite for a reaon.  As far as regular SO, I'm not sure that I agree.  I can smash the crap out of regular SO without needing to "necessarily" cheese.  Using a regular nidus build (not a min maxed one) can easily do the job, and while he's powerful, he's not nuke capable of putting out the kills per second of any favored nuke frame.  That said even on SO this was intended to be an "endgame" mode, so going in there with an underwhelming sub par ash is not a great idea.

46 minutes ago, (PS4)BOSS_TPH76 said:

The game mode isn't considered fun because people are not fighting skill but fighting an artificial arbitrary timer dependent on the rng of tile sets and luck with spawns. 

well there's word "fun" again.  Lots of people think it's fun.  Lots don't.  This isn't really a valid argument I think.  I mean lots of people like and hate fishing too.  Lots of people like and hate spy missions as well.  But after a while it's just part of the game and you learn to get good at it and do it when you have to if you don't like it, or do it because you like it.  It's a new kind of challenge.  Arch was the same.  I feel like people don't like to have to think too far outside their box of run and gun and expect if they can do that they should never have to grow, and this is exacerbated when a new game type comes into play because not only do they have to learn new rules, but they also have to grind back up the power ladder with new strategies, and that's going to happen with any new game mode, period.

46 minutes ago, (PS4)BOSS_TPH76 said:

Because we have empty tile sets. Where we have to spend tens of seconds just looking for enemies or where the spawn rate is reduced to a mere trickle while the timer plummets. When you finally do find enemies they spawn in very small groups. I am even going so far as to say that less enemies spawn in E/SO than in normal missions. 

There are tile sets on PC that do this as well.  The key is taking out the high value targets and knowing where to find those spawn points.  I wouldn't doubt though, that console has it's own specific issues, but I know with PC we had the same complaints in the first couple weeks, and then they also patched it and also we learned to get better about learning the spawn points.  Console though, might possibly be restricted in some senses based on the memory the hardware can allocate, I don't know that as a fact, but it seems like a likely culprit.  The whole notion of consoles at this point is to intentionally throttle the player, whether that's with hardware, game choice or forced usage of additional unintuitive hardware.

At this point with how expensive consoles are and how far PCs have dropped in price, computers are comparable and even I would say, a necessary tool in modern society that is otherwise required, making console in many cases (though not all) a choice.  One I wouldn't make and haven't made in probably 15 years.  This is a little besides the point, but I have a whole rant about how gamers need to reject the console industry that can wait for another day.  There are valid options here.  Sega still publishes games and doesn't rely on console sales anymore,   Nintendo and other publishers can do the same.

46 minutes ago, (PS4)BOSS_TPH76 said:

On top of that....the enemies in E/SO are or at the very least give the very real suspicion that they are stronger than the same level enemies outside of it. 

On PC they are documentably weaker.  I can't speak for console.

46 minutes ago, (PS4)BOSS_TPH76 said:

The game played a lot different on ps4 than it does on PC.

I will take you at your word on this, if this is presumably the case, I'm wondering outside of hardware limitations, why DE didn't implement the changes they did on PC before releasing on console?  I thought the whole idea for releasing to PC first was because we were guinea pigs that are expected to bear the brunt of the bugs so we could spew our hate onto the internet and then the console players would be a little less triggered?  A comment from DE to clarify on this would be nice just so we understand what the exact situation is, and if there is a discrepancy, noting that and potentially even explaining why.

A simple "we released it differently, we need to do additional testing for consoles (or whatever) to find out what the best answers are" I think might cause a lot of the pitch forks to be set down.

 

Edited May 20, 2018 by Klokwerkaos

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

27 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I think the ESO has the word Elite for a reaon.  As far as regular ESO, I'm not sure that I agree.  I can smash the crap out of regular SO without needing to "necessarily" cheese.  Using a regular nidus build (not a min maxed one) can easily do the job, and while he's powerful, he's not nuke capable of putting out the kills per second of any favored nuke frame.  That said even on SO this was intended to be an "endgame" mode, so going in there with an underwhelming sub par ash is not a great idea.[/quote]

Yeah but you are on PC. Like I said...you have enemies to kill. We don't. So we need to cheese in some way to even maintain the kill counter after round 6-ish.

There is nothing elite about ESO at all at this point. And that is because skill is not really tested. Builds are not really tested. There is only an artificial timer that relies heavily on whether or not a certain tile set can give you enough enemies for the efficiency to be sustained. The fail conditions are not up to the player....they are random. And while that are certain teams that fail on tile sets where they shouldn't or can't kill fast enough....the average is that people fail because there is too little to kill.

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well there's word "fun" again.  Lots of people think it's fun.  Lots don't. [/quote] 

Right now...I think it is a very safe bet to say that on console the novelty is wearing off and more people have serious gripes about the mode than people who genuinely enjoy it. 

And that is because of very specific reasons. 

1). The spawn rates are insufficient to be called Onslaught. Less enemies spawn than in normal missions. 

2). Efficiency drain is way too tuned and needs to be reduced.

3). The mode pushes a very real meta of cheesy frames and even cheesier tactics and makes the average frame not viable. 

4). Rewards are sub par...even focus gains are barely better than outside the mode and require cheese to even outpace them sufficiently to be called rewarding. 

This does not devalue those who like the mode...but the criticism is based on always the same issues that prevent more people from liking it and having fun with it. 

This will undoubtedly be patched. But right now console players are judging on what they have to play with. 

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This isn't really a valid argument I think.  I mean lots of people like and hate fishing too.  Lots of people like and hate spy missions as well.  But after a while it's just part of the game and you learn to get good at it and do it when you have to if you don't like it, or do it because you like it.  It's a new kind of challenge. [/quote]

I feel we are talking past each other....you can't "learn" to be good at a mode where "good" doesn't matter. If there is nothing to kill....you will fail the mode no matter how MLG you are.

And right now...console is in that situation.  

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Arch was the same.  I feel like people don't like to have to think too far outside their box of run and gun and expect if they can do that they should never have to grow, and this is exacerbated when a new game type comes into play because not only do they have to learn new rules, but they also have to grind back up the power ladder with new strategies, and that's going to happen with any new game mode, period.[/quote]

Sure...part of it can be explained through that. But Arch is problematic since the system itself is fundamentally flawed. It is clunky as hell....regardless of how much time you spend in it. I like it. I spend a lot of time in it. But the system itself is not very good. 

The main difference is that there is a ladder to climb....and that ladder is not there in E/SO get for console...

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There are tile sets on PC that do this as well.  The key is taking out the high value targets and knowing where to find those spawn points.  I wouldn't doubt though, that console has it's own specific issues, but I know with PC we had the same complaints in the first couple weeks, and then they also patched it and also we learned to get better about learning the spawn points. [/quote]

I know all the spawn points. Requiring to spawn camp is generally considers to be the least fun and engaging game play and it is a failure of game design. 

The problem is right now...you can camp all the spots and still have to wait 5 seconds for anything to spawn. And what spawns is not sufficient to sustain the efficiency drain.

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 Console though, might possibly be restricted in some senses based on the memory the hardware can allocate, I don't know that as a fact, but it seems like a likely culprit.  The whole notion of consoles at this point is to intentionally throttle the player, whether that's with hardware, game choice or forced usage of additional unintuitive hardware.[/QUOTE]

Might be...but this is literally the only horde mode in my experience that has this problem and it could also mean the design by DE is inadequate if they didn't create compensation for this. 

In any case you do bring up a valid point which I hadn't considered. 

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On PC they are documentably weaker.  I can't speak for console.[/quote]

Yes I think that may be true. You had a patch fixing the health increase and the spawn rates. 

I hope the previous point will not prevent that patch coming to console because something needs to happen. It is already the case that you can not always get a full PUG. 

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I will take you at your word on this, if this is presumably the case, I'm wondering outside of hardware limitations, why DE didn't implement the changes they did on PC before releasing on console?  I thought the whole idea for releasing to PC first was because we were guinea pigs that are expected to bear the brunt of the bugs so we could spew our hate onto the internet and then the console players would be a little less triggered?  A comment from DE to clarify on this would be nice just so we understand what the exact situation is, and if there is a discrepancy, noting that and potentially even explaining why.

I don't want to speculate on that. Maybe they didn't include it because it wasn't adequately tested on PC yet. Or maybe it take longer to program the same changes for console. 

And it would certainly be a good thing to hear from DE if only to sooth the current complaints. 

[rune_me]

47 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

On PC they are documentably weaker.  I can't speak for console.

Have you not played onslaught in a while?

They were weaker at release because of a bug in the way the onslaught enemies scaled. This has long since been fixed and onslaught enemies scales exactly like anywhere else in the game now.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

My experience tells me Hydron, Sedna is the fastest way to level a weapon.  Level 30 is achieved quicker on a weapon there than in 2 sets of 8 rounds. (30 min vs 40 min) that's a full 25% faster.  ESO flat out IS NOT the most efficient way to level a weapon and bringing an unlevelled frame even with a reactor and MR 25 is virtually suicide.

Additionally I don't have to level weapons, but lets say i want to forma something, I'm still going to hydron for multiple reasons even though the rewards in ESO are better.

If Hydron is better for levelling efficiency, it seems to reason then, if someone goes to ESO to level a weapon, they probably just prefer it to Hydron.

SO is the fastest/easiest to level your weapons and frames.

With a booster, I can get a weapon from 0 to 30 in 1~4 rounds (normally 3), depending on pug squad and tilesets, and a frame from 0 to 30 in two runs until less than round 8 (one to get enough affinity for rank 20 (half) and the other to get enough affinity to rank 30). With a smeeta that time can be greatly reduced.

I've never gotten my weapon to rank 30 in 2 and a half waves, or 5 waves, in hydron.

[Klokwerkaos]

On 2018-05-20 at 7:07 AM, rune_me said:

Have you not played onslaught in a while?

They were weaker at release because of a bug in the way the onslaught enemies scaled. This has long since been fixed and onslaught enemies scales exactly like anywhere else in the game now.

I play onslaught every day, I guess I just never noticed because they always die so fast.  One shot death is one shot death is one shot death whether they are scaled or not.