When we cross chat filter, just give us a warning before banning and a short "why".

[Badgerlad]

Please don't let this thread devolve into more debate about gender identity or what does or does not constitute a slur. It's not helpful, and DE have already come out and said that there are some words they don't want in their chat. Agree or disagree with those choices of words, it's out of our hands.

What we can provide feedback on is implementation, so here's mine (which I'd sent to [DE]Aidan too as part of a longer post). Personally, for the time being I've disabled region chat. I'd rather miss out on using some downtime to tell a new Tenno where to get Plastids than to mess up and not be able to talk to my clan.

First of all: Bots should not be able to hand out bans. Ever. They can't do context, and the penalties for getting caught out are severe. Not being able to use any chats, including private ones like squad and clan is excessive for being an idiot in region chat, especially in a social game.

What the bot should do is remove the entire offending message, not replace the word with stars (a black man being called n***** will see the word behind those stars as clearly as if it hadn't been censored at all). Get rid of the message completely, nothing of value will have been lost.

Secondly, the bot should send a message to the player informing them that their message was removed because of "word x" being offensive or commonly used as a slur, typed in all caps or repeated to the point of spam, whatever the cause may be. Also include a warning that further missteps may result in a ban.

On repeat offence, kick from the channel in question, and only that channel. If our intrepid troll then takes it to recruiting or trade, well the bots will catch him there as well.

If the message still doesn't sink in, chances are a ban is now the right course of action. But *not* executed by the bot. It should instead generate a log to be reviewed by a moderator who is authorised to hand out bans. And again, they should only be for the public channels (region, recruiting, trade and relay/cetus)

There is now a paper trail on that player's account for mods to follow on further transgressions at which point, throw the book at them. Hell, hand out game bans rather than just chat bans at that point.

 

Edited May 23, 2018 by Badgerlad

[Voltage]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Regiampiero said:

Warframe is a game not an instant message platform, and being funny or vulgar in chat isn't a game core mechanics which should take time away from real content development. 

Warframe is far from an instant message platform, but players should not feel threatened when using chat by moderators. This topic is quite the slippery slope. I have had Region disabled for years now, but I can see the argument of why this is an issue because it is unhealthy for the user experience. Warframe is an entertainment platform, not a place where you should feel scared to share your opinion because of moderation abuse which has been shown through Tumblr and in-game screenshots.

2 minutes ago, Pent_ said:

I don't want to be a part of a game who's moderators are allowed to do that.

Many players share this statement and it is the primary reason it is such a large issue recently. I share your thoughts.

Edited May 23, 2018 by --Q--Voltage

[(PSN)Regiampiero]

Just now, Pent_ said:

Dumb to you, important to me. Not explaining why you're banning someone, how long, and having power hungry and corrupt mods have a say in what goes into the filter that we don't get to see is pretty damn lame if you ask me. I don't want to be a part of a game who's moderators are allowed to do that.

That's true, but I can't help but feel that this whole deal is nothing other than a spawn of idiots on YouTube ranting for no reason (other that they're bored) and other idiots trying it themselves only to come on the forums and complaining they got banned for trying something that got someone else banned. Just this morning there was a guy saying that he got banned because he typed trap in general chat because he saw some one getting banned for it. Are there legitimate cases? I'm sure, but from what I've been seeing here the past few months makes me think the vast majority is just poor judgement and stupidity driven. 

[artemisfortune]

Just now, (PS4)Regiampiero said:

That's true, but I can't help but feel that this whole deal is nothing other than a spawn of idiots on YouTube ranting for no reason (other that they're bored) and other idiots trying it themselves only to come on the forums and complaining they got banned for trying something that got someone else banned. Just this morning there was a guy saying that he got banned because he typed trap in general chat because he saw some one getting banned for it. Are there legitimate cases? I'm sure, but from what I've been seeing here the past few months makes me think the vast majority is just poor judgement and stupidity driven. 

Again, you're free to draw those conclusions if you want, but the reason I'm so heated is because after all this time I still care about this game and community, so when such large injustices such as this are happening I feel obligated to try and change something that's dear to me when I see it falling down a dark path.

[Sunder]

19 minutes ago, [DE]Aidan said:

At this point in the process what we are "doing" is collecting feedback. This means we have nothing to share as we are still processing the feedback we are being given by the community. When we have something to share with you all, we will do so.

Honestly to me it sounds like this will be swept under the rug. Just waiting it out....which is very disappointing.

• Still believe we need a basic filter
• Still believe we need a personal filter because terms mean different things for everyone + context
• Still believe we need explanations for why someone's been kicked/suspended from chat
• Still believe we need a list of what's allowed/not allowed. Because apparently context REALLY matters (You guys laid out your drop tables, why not this?)
• Still believe we need that chat moderator to be removed from their position for behavior that would get anyone else punished.

Also let me make note I very rarely get kicked from chat if at all. The last time I can remember was commenting on the difficulty of a sortie because of the defense targets AI. Simply said something along the lines of, "That 3rd sortie was a b*tch" and was silently kicked.  No warning, no PM, no explanation. Just sitting in silence by myself till I realized what happened.

Quote

 

22 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We build tools to facilitate the type of behaviour that allows everyone to enjoy our game from our ruleset alone.

it's our choice to determine how our bots work

This makes it sound like double standards are ok. That favourites can very much be a thing.

This is very disappointing if true.

I understand it's DE's game and their choice what to do with it and how to run it but if this is how they're going to treat the community then yeah....I dunno.

 

Edited May 23, 2018 by Sunder

[Trentiel]

2 hours ago, Gandergear said:

it's being discussed very actively, just not in off topic

That thread was closed 30 minutes ago for being too toxic. Right while i was in the middle of writing a very thoroughly thought out statement. So I'll leave it here, so hopefully someone can see it.

I don't think that false-positives are an acceptable trade-off. I've been chat banned for...

• -telling people that I'm gay. (I started saying that I'm a homosexualist instead, works great. Especially if you read it in a high-society British accent.)
• -linking amps and zaws that use the full character limit in all caps. NETLESTING THE PESTERPROD is my own personal infested kicked-from-region stick.
• -I'm sure I've run afoul of the swear bans when I first started playing. Although I'm a 30 year old professional that does a lot of art streaming. I have a personal consideration for communicating in a way that does not insult people.

I'm seeing a lot of people use certain phrases that contain a bad word, but are completely innocuous. Ear Rape. Refers to a forced violation of the auditory senses. I understand the assertion that using the term rape in any other context than talking about an actual sexual assault is somehow dismissive or insulting of rape and rape victims. If that's DE's position then, what is the polite short hand term for this? Ear Pain? Coercive Ear Assault? We could get really creative here. If we're going to have to start curating speech, at the very least give a clear path to walk through the minefield.

I understand that DE wants to filter the language of players in this Mature Rated 18+ violent gore-fest about cyborg ninjas murdering just enough people to maintain a morally gray balance of power. Language is more real, by degrees, than the virtual violence we're all pretending to engage in. Even dens of scum and villainy like Something Awful's forums have filters. But they have language filters. Replacement words. We could have in-world lore justified swears to replace foul language. Also replace slurs with a kind and loving opposites. Give them a warning too, for the more serious stuff. And rethink the banning of the word gay. As self-satisfied as I am with my personal work-around, I find it alarming that using the culturally correct word for homosexuals is not allowed. Gay is the correct word. It's not a naughty word. It's right there in the Gay BLT sandwich.

Punishment doesn't actually make the person punished rethink things, it just makes YOU feel good in a sadistic way. Like beating your children. It just makes them hate and fear you and become sneakier about their transgressions, not respect you and actually follow your lead. Space Mom, please no more spankings.

I have more to say, especially on the seriousness of misandric bigotry and it's impact on society and individuals, but I need more time to formulate my thoughts. Long story short, anyone who proclaims hatred of an entire group of people based only on a biological characteristic, should not ever have a job moderating the speech of others. They intrinsically believe in double standards and should not ever be in a position to adjudicate justice. Not being in a position of power is not a punishment, it's the denial of a privilege. We should not privilege bigots of any stripe.

[Sikreci]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)Regiampiero said:

Are there legitimate cases? I'm sure, but from what I've been seeing here the past few months makes me think the vast majority is just poor judgement and stupidity driven. 

This is exactly it. Me and my buddies have been hit by accidental bans plenty in the last 20 years, but we just go "oh that sucks" and move on with our lives. If this is such a critical issue, I think some introspection is called for by those that find themselves unable to communicate without using common slurs.

[txteclipse]

Seeing as the chat filter is clearly the biggest problem with Warframe right now, I'm looking forward to logging in later and experiencing the massive update they must have made to address armor scaling, damage type balance, and high-level/low-level player overlap. Good job, DE!

[artemisfortune]

Just now, Sikreci said:

This is exactly it. Me and my buddies have been hit by accidental bans plenty in the last 20 years, but we just go "oh that sucks" and move on with our lives. If this is such a critical issue, I think some introspection is called for by those that find themselves unable to communicate without using common slurs.

Level with me here, you can get banned for linking [Nezha] and [Kinetic Syphon Trap] in the same sentence. Linking actual items in the game. How is someone supposed to know that'll trigger the bot? You can get banned for mentioning the country Niger. You can get banned for accidental typos. More to the point, you aren't told why you were banned, or how long you were banned. There a mods who will kick you for even challenging their thinking, without being rude, without slurs, without suggesting an insult at all, and they'll call you stupid and kick you from the chat. There a mods who's very usernames are sexist, and all that's asked is change to a shorter version that doesn't include the entire sexist word.

These are the things that are not okay in any community, it's what we're trying to change.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

Here's the problem with the current system: Is it better to exile 'bad' people or reform them?

Now, admittedly, not all bad people can be reformed. However, to shun all of them, when some of them could be made into decent human beings, does no one any favors. Not the ones who were raised in hate and are only acting the only way they know, not the ones who wish to make the world a less hateful place, and not those who wish to live in peace.

Shoving dust under the rug doesn't get rid of it, it just puts it in hiding. Banning words with excessively long bans doesn't make people not want to use them, it just makes said people go into hiding.

The way to make someone a better person is to gently tell them what they did wrong, why it's wrong, and what they can do in the future instead of doing what's wrong. Simply punishing them without any details or explanation doesn't make them reform, it just makes them bitter.

This goes beyond DE, of course. This goes for all of you who are saying stuff like "Deserves you right to be banned, you nasty, less-than-human filth" (though not in those words). This goes for all of you stating that ignorance is no excuse. This goes for those of you on both sides who are trying to derail this conversation into conversations about something beyond the scope of DE and their ChatBot (which, I must admit, has been myself at times).

I know some people will never change, but that's what an escalating system would fix. If you get a warning first, and still do it anyway, then yes, you deserve a ban. If you do it again after than ban has been removed, then yes, you should probably be banned from the game itself (assuming it is purposeful and not accidental). I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that instantly jumping to banning without any explanation or other attempt to reconcile is not productive, and does nothing to improve the playerbase.

EDIT: One parting quote from one of my favorite video game characters: "Zin krif horvut se suleyk. What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?"

Edited May 23, 2018 by -AoN-CanoLathra-

[(PSN)Regiampiero]

9 minutes ago, Pent_ said:

Again, you're free to draw those conclusions if you want, but the reason I'm so heated is because after all this time I still care about this game and community, so when such large injustices such as this are happening I feel obligated to try and change something that's dear to me when I see it falling down a dark path.

I understand and can appreciate your sentiments, I've spend 4 years in this game and I too care very much care about the community. I just don't see the injustice you speak of. If anything I see inconsistency in the application of the rules because there's still many people that are not being punished. Day after day I see people posting they want to buy slaves without repercussion, and then I ear people getting banned for cracking an off-colored joke between friends. If it fair? No it's not fair that there are gaps in the system, but it doesn't mean those that got punished were not supposed to be punished because someone else didn't get banned. No where in the world is justice evenly executed. Not because it's done on purpose, but because it's extremely hard to do. Especially with bots that have no clue what is funny and what's not. 

My only suggestion would be a simple ban timer that would increase at every infraction. First ban, 5 min. and 1 day probation, Second ban 15 min. 3 days. Third 1 hour, 1 week....all the way to 1 month and life-time prob, or perma-ban. 

[blink8888]

7 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

EDIT: One parting quote from one of my favorite video game characters: "Zin krif horvut se suleyk. What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?"

I can't believe you're quoting Paarthurnax, well said kinsman haha.

[Sikreci]

5 minutes ago, Pent_ said:

These are the things that are not okay in any community

I disagree. The false positives are far outweighed by people who are trying to creatively get around the rules to harass others. Everything you've listed are all tactics for feigning innocence I've seen people try time and time again since at least 2001. A filter doesn't have to be 100% right 100% of the time to be useful.

[tucker_d_dawg]

6 minutes ago, Sikreci said:

The false positives are far outweighed by people who are trying to creatively get around the rules to harass others. Everything you've listed are all tactics for feigning innocence I've seen people try time and time again since at least 2001. A filter doesn't have to be 100% right 100% of the time to be useful. 

Very much this. In fact there are so many phrases they could and should add to the auto-ban to clean up that cess pool that is region chat.

Take your medicine and use your time away to grow up.  The only change I'd like to see is when one gets kicked - it informs them for how long.  Might reduce the number of posts on the forums (but probably not).

 

 

[artemisfortune]

11 minutes ago, Sikreci said:

I disagree. The false positives are far outweighed by people who are trying to creatively get around the rules to harass others. Everything you've listed are all tactics for feigning innocence I've seen people try time and time again since at least 2001. A filter doesn't have to be 100% right 100% of the time to be useful.

Yet a lot of us agree that this filter could be plenty better by offering some of the most basic information like ban length and reasoning, loosening up the filter to not include innocuous terms like Niger and trap being used in the correct, non slur, non dodge, non offensive context and instead having more volunteer chat mods who earnestly want to see the community grow, creating a system to allow users to define their own filter on top of the global one that contains all the common, never allowed words and phrases, and changing the filter to either just a filter which pings a mod to check the context, or at least making the punishment hierarchy more lenient. IE a warning, then a kick, then a 2 hour ban, day ban, 3 day ban, week, month, perma, or any kind of progressively worsening punishment system.

Edit: I'd also like to point out that I've never been banned in this game, in case there was any confusion. As in, I'm arguing for better moderation because I care about the community, not because I have some vendetta.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Pent_

[Tonksie]

1 minute ago, tucker_d_dawg said:

Very much this. In fact there are so many phrases they could and should add to the auto-ban to clean up that cess pool that is region chat.

Take your medicine and use your time away to grow up.  The only change I'd like to see is when one gets kicked - it informs them for how long.  Might reduce the number of posts on the forums (but probably not).

 

 

You are completely ignoring the fact that players can be banned for just linking items. If you want to see for yourself, just try linking Nezha and the Kinetic Siphon Trap and watch what happens. Yes, people being obnoxious and offensive warrants a chat suspension. But linking items? The bot might as well throw a dart at a board with the region chat's population on it and pick people at random like that.

[Sunder]

False positives or not....personal, locally saved, customizable filters would solve all this nonsense.

I disabled the filter for a reason.

[tucker_d_dawg]

Just now, Tonks-Prime said:

You are completely ignoring the fact that players can be banned for just linking items. If you want to see for yourself, just try linking Nezha and the Kinetic Siphon Trap and watch what happens. Yes, people being obnoxious and offensive warrants a chat suspension. But linking items? The bot might as well throw a dart at a board with the region chat's population on it and pick people at random like that.

No - actually I'm not.  Take some time out to re-read what I posted AND what I quoted.. In fact I'll highlight the relevant section for you:

 

2 minutes ago, Pent_ said:

The false positives are far outweighed by people who are trying to creatively get around the rules to harass others.

And if you think for one minute that people wouldn't find ways to abuse the system if linked items were automatically excluded you are simply naive.

[Navarc]

17 minutes ago, Trentiel said:

That thread was closed 30 minutes ago for being too toxic. Right while i was in the middle of writing a very thoroughly thought out statement. So I'll leave it here, so hopefully someone can see it.

I don't think that false-positives are an acceptable trade-off. I've been chat banned for...

• -telling people that I'm gay. (I started saying that I'm a homosexualist instead, works great. Especially if you read it in a high-society British accent.)

12

I'm just curious, what's the reason for telling people your sexual preference? It seems like a personal & irrelevant thing but everyone hangs out in different circles so maybe I just can't relate. I've only been asked about my sexuality about 3 times by people in this community and I don't think any of them were in-game.
Also, DE can't possibly make a system that lets people who identify as something use words that are linked with hate speech and to derogate.  People who would use these words as slurs to try to upset and harass people would just tick every box claiming to be everything in order to get access to these words and escape chatbots suspension even if DE were to make such a solution. I just don't see a solution where slurs & hate speech is filtered + people can use the words they feel belong to them.
 That includes the word "gay". Your country/culture may not use it that way but many do, just 2 days ago someone tried to insult me by calling me gay, it's very petty and ineffective but it's still ill intent.

The filters in WF are not flawless by any means, I can't say Frosts ball anymore, got to use Sphere or Globe or else people with filter on won't see it. My loadout "Assorted" just got censored a few days ago for having "ass" in it. But I think overall they're doing what they're supposed to just a bit excessively at times.

A week suspension instantly is a bit much. I think first time offenders should get a whisper warning from the bot explaining what they said that was wrong & continuing to break what has been made clear to be against DEs rules leads to chat suspension. 

Quote

I have more to say, especially on the seriousness of misandric bigotry and it's impact on society and individuals, but I need more time to formulate my thoughts. Long story short, anyone who proclaims hatred of an entire group of people based only on a biological characteristic, should not ever have a job moderating the speech of others. They intrinsically believe in double standards and should not ever be in a position to adjudicate justice. Not being in a position of power is not a punishment, it's the denial of a privilege. We should not privilege bigots of any stripe.

I'm very curious about this last part  I don't really understand what it's referring to so I can't really say if I agree with it if I don't understand it, would you elaborate? Even in a PM if it's not something you think should be posted.

[rune_me]

1 hour ago, Tonks-Prime said:

I was suspended from ingame chat for linking Nezha and Kinetic Siphon Trap like this:

[Nezha][Kinetic Siphon Trap]

What gives LoL

You are the reason we have such restrictive rules in chat. The more people try to break the rules and trick the bot, the more restrictive the bot has to be to cover all it's bases. If you are tired of the chat bot being extreme, just remember that it is behavior such as your little trick that is to blame.

[Tonksie]

Just now, tucker_d_dawg said:

No - actually I'm not.  Take some time out to re-read what I posted AND what I quoted.. In fact I'll highlight the relevant section for you:

 

And if you think for one minute that people wouldn't find ways to abuse the system if linked items were automatically excluded you are simply naive.

That is not what you stated. I agree with Pent, I do not agree with your attitude of 'if you got a ban deal with it, I do not care, learn from your mistakes[mistakes being to link items]'

[artemisfortune]

3 minutes ago, tucker_d_dawg said:

No - actually I'm not.  Take some time out to re-read what I posted AND what I quoted.. In fact I'll highlight the relevant section for you:

 

And if you think for one minute that people wouldn't find ways to abuse the system if linked items were automatically excluded you are simply naive.

I'm not sure what you're trying to quote me on, but what exactly is bad about someone saying "Yeah I like to use [Nezha] when I'm doing my synthesis missions. It makes it fun sprinting around and throwing [Kinetic Syphon Traps]." Or how about a new player who says "Hey how do I get Nezha and those Kinetic Syphon Traps?" You'll happily see those people banned?

Edited May 23, 2018 by Pent_

[Sikreci]

3 minutes ago, Tonks-Prime said:

You are completely ignoring the fact that players can be banned for just linking items. If you want to see for yourself, just try linking Nezha and the Kinetic Siphon Trap and watch what happens.

People combining item names to circumvent the chat filter has been around as long as games have had item links in chat, this isn't a new thing. The DE team has just decided to crack down on it, I'm okay with that.

[Badgerlad]

4 minutes ago, Tonks-Prime said:

You are completely ignoring the fact that players can be banned for just linking items. If you want to see for yourself, just try linking Nezha and the Kinetic Siphon Trap and watch what happens. Yes, people being obnoxious and offensive warrants a chat suspension. But linking items? The bot might as well throw a dart at a board with the region chat's population on it and pick people at random like that.

Let's be honest here: That was to prove a point, not an "innocent" linking of two items. Knowing full well that Nezha and Trap together is a ticket to Banville, population you, you went ahead and did it anyway. I'm for having less censorship and want all bans to have human review rather than be bot-handled, but your example makes an excellent argument for why we can't have nice things.

[rune_me]

Just now, Pent_ said:

Or how about a new player who says "Hey how do I get Nezha and those Kinetic Syphon Traps?" You'll happily see those people banned?

What new player said that? Please introduce me to him or her, so we can discuss this. Until then, this is a purely hypothetical situation that no one needs to waste time or energy taking precautions against or even discussing.